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Old Jun 28th, 2012, 09:10 PM   #4096
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

Rafa is out!!!! Come on Roger!!!!!!!!!!!! Please make this Wimbledon a good one for me after all!
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Old Jun 28th, 2012, 09:17 PM   #4097
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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The match was lost for Germany the moment Löw decided on his starting lineup. Taking out the players who were brilliant against Greece (Reus, Schürle) and replacing them with struggling players like Kroos & Podolski killed the match before it even started.

It was obvious that Reus was the best of the German side the moment he came on in the second half. As long as Bayern players get special treatment, this team will not win any titles. All of Bayern's supposedly top players sucked today, Gomez had exactly 0 chances, Schweinsteiger was too bad to even put it into words.

The match could have easily ended 5-0, 2-1 is a flattering result.
Schweinie has been troubled with injury and I think it showed tonight. He was out of the game. Gomez was really poor, but all German players performed below par. The lax defending at the first Italian goal just summed it up.

That said, I'll still bet the farm Germany will make at least the SF in Brazil.
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Old Jun 28th, 2012, 09:20 PM   #4098
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Rafa is out!!!! Come on Roger!!!!!!!!!!!! Please make this Wimbledon a good one for me after all!
Wow! Shocking is not a strong enough word to describe this. Nadal was my pick to win. After defeating Djokovic in Monte Carlo, Rome and Roland Garros I thought he was set to win Wimbledon too.

I'm not sure if this helps Roger much, he will still likely face Djokovic in the semis. I'm hoping Federer wins but if not him I would like to see a first time winner. Maybe Tsonga.
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Old Jun 28th, 2012, 09:53 PM   #4099
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

Sad to see Rafa lose. I like him a lot more than Roger or Novak.
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Old Jun 28th, 2012, 09:59 PM   #4100
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Sad to see Rafa lose. I like him a lot more than Roger or Novak.
Don't feel too bad for Rafa, he has had a pretty decent career.
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Old Jun 28th, 2012, 10:07 PM   #4101
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

So nobody would be happy with Lukas Rosol doing a Petra?
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Old Jun 28th, 2012, 10:21 PM   #4102
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

Personally, I don't care much whether he dates a 16 year-old...
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Old Jun 29th, 2012, 05:03 AM   #4103
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Rafa is out!!!! Come on Roger!!!!!!!!!!!! Please make this Wimbledon a good one for me after all!
Read a brief headline that Rafa disrespectfully bumped his opponent;is there any truth to that or was there likely simply an accident??
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Old Jun 29th, 2012, 08:53 AM   #4104
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

Re the equal money debate Giles Simon re-ignited and Maria Sharapova weighed in on. .. Unfortunately 8/10 (anecdotal quick count) comments in Brit papers tell Sharapova to stop the (%/¤/%(/()("#¤% grunting ...
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Old Jun 29th, 2012, 11:00 AM   #4105
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Re the equal money debate Giles Simon re-ignited and Maria Sharapova weighed in on. .. Unfortunately 8/10 (anecdotal quick count) comments in Brit papers tell Sharapova to stop the (%/¤/%(/()("#¤% grunting ...
Generally speaking the men do put in more work (best of five vs. best of three) and the men are inarguably superior players (if the two current number ones played it wouldn't be a question of how many games would Maria win it would be a question of how many points). Personally I prefer to watch the women (best of five matches can take an eternity) but I think the only fair way to settle it is to make it merit based. If both the ATP and WTA take in an equal amount of money then it should be a 50-50 split. If one side makes more they should be paid more. Sexism has nothing to do with it and is a straw man argument.
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Old Jun 29th, 2012, 12:31 PM   #4106
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Generally speaking the men do put in more work (best of five vs. best of three) and the men are inarguably superior players ..
I am not swayed by those arguments It is all about marketability and popularity.

The hard work (if we assume they train equally hard), would then be translated into Usain Bolt being paid less than a 100m female sprinter, because he finishes his heat quicker.

As for training hard. I think the women train as hard as the men. Among women, tennis players train hard, but so do a lot of other athletes, like swimmers. In Denmark the top swimmers are so envious of Caroline, it's off the charts. Every chance they get, they take big swipes at her. One swimmer Jeanette Ottesen (in)famously claimed : "I am bigger than Caroline Wozniacki. She only wins small tournaments". When there's voting among athletes for SPOTY (BT Gold is the local name), the female swimmers vote for each other and awards Caroline 'nil' point.

Anyhoo, I am sure they work hard, but they are effectively on social welfare, as they cannot feed themselves from their chosen profession.

Yes, physically, men are stronger. That's how evolution (or God if you're one of those creationism nutters) has impacted the two genders. Doesn't say anything about entertainment value though, that a man can serve 130mph and women (normally) only about 100mph.

At the end of the day, women's tennis is marketable and popular, so they get equal pay. Women's footballers .... not so much
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Old Jun 29th, 2012, 12:40 PM   #4107
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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Generally speaking the men do put in more work (best of five vs. best of three) and the men are inarguably superior players (if the two current number ones played it wouldn't be a question of how many games would Maria win it would be a question of how many points). Personally I prefer to watch the women (best of five matches can take an eternity) but I think the only fair way to settle it is to make it merit based. If both the ATP and WTA take in an equal amount of money then it should be a 50-50 split. If one side makes more they should be paid more. Sexism has nothing to do with it and is a straw man argument.
I have to disagree. Sexism has everything to do with it. It's the root of the inequality to begin with. I asked myself why is anyone bothered by this and went through the arguments against equal prize money and none of them held up upon further scrutiny. The most popular one, the men play best of 5, the women best of 3 doesn't hold up either.

Roger Federer's first round match last a little over an hour, while Caroline's was longer than that in just the second set alone. Why should Roger's opponent get more than Caroline just because the men played a best of 5? By the time the third set came around Roger winning was never in doubt. And the only semi final at this year's Roland Garros that was actually competitive was the one between Sam and Sara. Why should they make less just because Novak and Rafa played just one more set in straight sets victories that everyone already knew the outcome? And these are not the only examples I can use.

And basing it on merit would not be fair. Why should a player, man or woman, struggling to make ends meet, be effectively punished just because one side generates more revenue? The current system really is the most fair in that no matter who wins they will get the same prize money. It can't and it should not be all about profit.

That's just my humble opinion.
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Old Jun 29th, 2012, 05:16 PM   #4108
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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I have to disagree. Sexism has everything to do with it. It's the root of the inequality to begin with. I asked myself why is anyone bothered by this and went through the arguments against equal prize money and none of them held up upon further scrutiny. The most popular one, the men play best of 5, the women best of 3 doesn't hold up either.

Roger Federer's first round match last a little over an hour, while Caroline's was longer than that in just the second set alone. Why should Roger's opponent get more than Caroline just because the men played a best of 5? By the time the third set came around Roger winning was never in doubt. And the only semi final at this year's Roland Garros that was actually competitive was the one between Sam and Sara. Why should they make less just because Novak and Rafa played just one more set in straight sets victories that everyone already knew the outcome? And these are not the only examples I can use.

And basing it on merit would not be fair. Why should a player, man or woman, struggling to make ends meet, be effectively punished just because one side generates more revenue? The current system really is the most fair in that no matter who wins they will get the same prize money. It can't and it should not be all about profit.

That's just my humble opinion.
I honestly don't feel strongly about this topic one way or the other but I believe that part of Simon's argument was that the ATP generates more income than the WTA. I'm not sure if that is true and I also don't know how that works regarding the slams but if it is true I can see his point of view. This may be a poor example for the Europeans but look at the NBA and the WNBA. Few people would argue that the WNBA players should earn the same amount as NBA players due to the fact that the NBA generates much more money. I suspect that the gap, if there even is a gap, between the ATP and WTA is much smaller but if there is one I can see why it would bother some people. This is probably an impractical solution but if the incomes that were generated by each "league" were kept separate and the ATP monies divided among the men and the WTA monies divided among the women there would be no room for argument.

Regarding this question of yours "Why should a player, man or woman, struggling to make ends meet, be effectively punished just because one side generates more revenue?" I have a simple answer: capitalism. What if there came a time when the WTA was bringing in five, ten or twenty times the revenue that the ATP was? Wouldn't the women have a legitimate reason to demand a greater share of the profits? In that scenario they would be the ones that are drawing the fans/income so shouldn't they be rewarded for it?

I actually do agree with you regarding the length of matches. I often find the ATP matches to be too long and in the early rounds you very rarely have competitive matches involving the top ten players (Rosol/Nadal being a huge exception). On the other hand you can usually rely on the top men to come through to the quarters/semis/final where with the women things are completely unpredictable. I'm starting to ramble so I'll stop now.
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Old Jun 29th, 2012, 05:34 PM   #4109
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

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I am not swayed by those arguments It is all about marketability and popularity.

The hard work (if we assume they train equally hard), would then be translated into Usain Bolt being paid less than a 100m female sprinter, because he finishes his heat quicker.

As for training hard. I think the women train as hard as the men. Among women, tennis players train hard, but so do a lot of other athletes, like swimmers. In Denmark the top swimmers are so envious of Caroline, it's off the charts. Every chance they get, they take big swipes at her. One swimmer Jeanette Ottesen (in)famously claimed : "I am bigger than Caroline Wozniacki. She only wins small tournaments". When there's voting among athletes for SPOTY (BT Gold is the local name), the female swimmers vote for each other and awards Caroline 'nil' point.

Anyhoo, I am sure they work hard, but they are effectively on social welfare, as they cannot feed themselves from their chosen profession.

Yes, physically, men are stronger. That's how evolution (or God if you're one of those creationism nutters) has impacted the two genders. Doesn't say anything about entertainment value though, that a man can serve 130mph and women (normally) only about 100mph.

At the end of the day, women's tennis is marketable and popular, so they get equal pay. Women's footballers .... not so much
Well, if you are talking about the best players in the world I think it is fair to say that the men are inarguably superior players. Take Simon and Sharapova. If they played each other Maria would be embarrassed and lucky to win a couple of games. I'm certainly not saying that all men are superior tennis players to all women, Maria would certainly kick my ass all over the court, but the best men are better than the best women.

I do agree with you about entertainment value. Generally I don't get much out of watching ATP matches until the quarters but there are usually at least one or two good WTA matches in each of the first three rounds but I think the quality of the ATP matches are better in the quarters/semis/finals as opposed to the WTA where you often have a random lower ranked player sneaking through and being destroyed when she meets a higher ranked player. Both tours have their flaws and I would love for them to be more like each other. For the WTA to be more predictable and the ATP to be less predictable.
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Old Jun 29th, 2012, 05:57 PM   #4110
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Re: On the Concept of Irony w/ Continual Reference to Caro, the #1 Sunshine Queen

Sex is irrelivent to the argument if capitalism is the key. Players should in such a case get paid according to the revenue the generate. It's that way in all other entertainment branches, and tennis is entertainment.
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