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View Poll Results: Who Wold Win??

Martina 104 43.15%
Serena 137 56.85%
Voters: 241. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Sep 22nd, 2011, 04:40 AM   #46
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Re: Martina Navratilova VS Serena Williams

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Originally Posted by Philbo View Post
The top 300 men would beat every single female player on the tour.

Dont you recall when the sisters first came on tour, a year or two into their career they mentioned thinking they could beat some of the men players? A chain smoking german took them up on the challenge...

'Braasch competed in a 'Battle of the Sexes' contest against Venus Williams and Serena Williams at the 1998 Australian Open when he was ranked 203. A decade and a half older than the sisters, Braasch "was a man whose training regime centred around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple bottles of ice cold lager."[1] He nonetheless handily defeated the sisters in an individual set, 6–1 on Serena, 6–2 on Venus, while rubbing it in by smoking cigarettes during the changeover
That was when they were inexperienced and teenagers
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Old Sep 22nd, 2011, 04:59 AM   #47
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Re: Martina Navratilova VS Serena Williams

Peak Martina was using a wooden racquet. With that equipment, she would have beaten Serena easily. With modern racquets I've no doubt Serena would win. They were both very much players of their own eras.

As for the idea that Serena could beat any of the current ATP players - a preposterous notion. Take a look at Djokovic play. The guys on the ATP tour may not be able to beat him but they can at least compete with him. Serena, or any other female player for that matter, would struggle to win a point against Djokovic, let alone a game.

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Old Sep 22nd, 2011, 05:14 AM   #48
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Re: Martina Navratilova VS Serena Williams

I think peak Martina could beat peak Serena, and vice versa. Remember playing a serve-volley game in this day and age and with 2002-2003's physical capabilities with 2008-2011 mental capabilities of Serena completing the player at a hypothetical peak, Serena could cut all or most of Martina's time once she got a handle on the serve. Martina was good at making incredible volleys, but many players of this generation (Serena included) would love the target at net, even if Martina was doing at least 50/50 (which at her peak with the aid of technology advances and fitness advances, would probably do better).

On a grass court, no doubt Martina. Clay would also probably favor Martina, but her groundstrokes aren't very powerful and Serena could eat a lot of those up because clay could afford her more time to set up and the slice would bounce up a bit more. On a slower hard court, it would probably be Serena, and on a faster hard court, it would be 50/50.
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Old Sep 22nd, 2011, 05:21 AM   #49
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Re: Martina Navratilova VS Serena Williams

Oh puhhhlease Margaret Court could beat prime Serena with her current racket and Margaret using a wooden racket

Last edited by renstar : Sep 22nd, 2011 at 05:21 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old Sep 22nd, 2011, 05:50 AM   #50
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Re: Martina Navratilova VS Serena Williams

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Oh puhhhlease Margaret Court could beat prime Serena with her current racket and Margaret using a wooden racket
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Old Sep 22nd, 2011, 09:09 AM   #51
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Re: Martina Navratilova VS Serena Williams

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Originally Posted by justineheninfan View Post
Steffi and Martina played 6 times in 85-86 and I am pretty sure Graf was nowhere near her prime those years. She hadnt even reached a slam final yet or gone past the 4th round of Wimbledon yet by the end of 86, and her first pro tournament win wasnt until May 86. Martina was still at her best at that point. 87 was the year Graf began to ascend to her prime and Martina began to fall off hers. Yes you are right Martina played Graf pretty well though, but she still found her power harder to cope with than Evert's game and said so in a couple documentaries on her I saw, and Serena has extreme power off all shots which Graf does not.

Seles did not turn 16 until December 1989. So Martina did have 2 matches with 15 year old Seles and 4 with 16 year old Seles. Yes Seles won her first slam in 1990 but she was definitely nowhere near the Seles of 91-93 either, she only made it past the quarters of that one slam that year and lost to Linda Ferrando (lol) at the U.S open. As you correctly noted Martina had more trouble with Seles power off all areas than she did with Graf. When she chose to approach the net she knew she would be facing blasts wherever she came from, off the serve, approaching the forehand, approaching the backhand, which wasnt true of Graf. Serena though has a much bigger 1st and 2nd serve than Seles (and an even better serve than Graf who arguably had the best womens serve back then), returns almost as well as Seles (and definitely better than Graf), and hits off the ground with atleast as much vigor off both sides as Seles. Martina would have a much harder time getting into Serena's service games than Seles, providing Serena wasnt serving like say the US Open final this year.

While Martina was starting to get older when she played Seles (and some of her matches with Graf) keep in mind she was an extremely late bloomer too. She was playing much better even at 30-33 than your typical great, since almost her whole career of achievement basically started at age 25 (minus the first 2 Wimbledon titles and 1 U.S Open final). She wasnt at her best but she wasnt a typical 30-33 year old player either.

I saw her mention she felt Hana when playing well was better able to counter her power than Chris could because of her power and shotmaking ability. I also saw that on a documentary on her. If I can find a quote I will but dont have one on me now.
I think its fair to discount their matches in 85 as being fairly irrelevant because of Graf being too young. I dont think its fair to discount their 86 results given the fact that in 86 Steffi was good enough to BEAT Martina for the first time and also have 2 MP's to make her first ever slam final against Martina, so surely that makes her close enough to her best to count the matches as fair? Steffi is closer to peak Steffi in 86 than Martina is close to peak Martina in 1994 imo.

In terms of Monica, again, fine to discount the 89 results. But you cant discount the 1990 results given the fact Monica was a slam winner that year.
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Old Sep 22nd, 2011, 09:46 AM   #52
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Re: Martina Navratilova VS Serena Williams

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I think its fair to discount their matches in 85 as being fairly irrelevant because of Graf being too young. I dont think its fair to discount their 86 results given the fact that in 86 Steffi was good enough to BEAT Martina for the first time and also have 2 MP's to make her first ever slam final against Martina, so surely that makes her close enough to her best to count the matches as fair? Steffi is closer to peak Steffi in 86 than Martina is close to peak Martina in 1994 imo.

In terms of Monica, again, fine to discount the 89 results. But you cant discount the 1990 results given the fact Monica was a slam winner that year.
Honestly I dont get what you are saying in many respects here. You say any matches once Steffi or Monica began beating Martina count, and if they were good enough to beat Martina they obviously were in their primes already or atleast strong enough to make all results fully credible. By that standard any results between Martina vs Graf and Seles up until 1993 are also fully credible too since she beat them both once that year right? In the case you want to say Martina is a hero for beating Graf and Seles well past her prime, you could say Graf and Seles also did likewise to Martina well before their primes. You also say results with Monica starting in 1990 are fully credible reference points because of Monica winning a slam that year. By that standard any results of Graf and Seles vs Martina up until 1990 are too based on Martina winning a slam that year right? After all I hope we are applying the same standards to everyone here.

Why dont we just discount none of the results though, they are all official matches that count after all, in which case Graf beat Martina 50% of the times they played and Seles 60%. I think that is plenty trouble with their power, but maybe that is just me. Or in the case of Graf-Martina discount the 85 results, discount the 91-94 results, and Graf now leads the new hypothetical head to head 7-5. After all even in this scenario we are counting results only up to the point Martina was still winning slams (1990) yet beginning counting at a point Graf was not even making slam finals yet (1986). In the case of Seles discount the 89 results, discount the results after 1990 (the year Martina won Wimbledon) and Seles leads the new head to head 3-1. If you insist on only counting prime Martina and discounting all results after 1987 (which would make sense as presumably that is what this poll is based on), well for obvious reasons I and most others would refuse to believe for a moment 1986 Graf and 1990 Seles were in their primes as well, so that would leave the Graf-Martina head to head as 2-2 (1987 matches only) and Seles-Navratilova head to head as 0-0 (3-1 Seles in the year they were arguably both closest as possible together to their primes at once in 1990 however).

Anyway I am not interested in going deeper into a psychoanalysis of Martina vs Graf and Seles, especialy as this is a Serena vs Navratilova discussion anyway. Either way it is clear while she coped with the power pretty well, she also had substantial trouble with it to be losing that often to anyone being the great dominant Martina that she is. Certainly more trouble with it than any previous opponents, including Evert who she beat 13 times in a row at one point at her best (which I am sure you will concede she never would have done vs adult Graf or Seles, even at the peak of her powers). Serena though overall has more power than either Graf or Seles, her serve is arguably even slightly tougher to break than Graf's and MUCH tougher to break than Seles, and her returning is alot tougher to serve and volley against than Graf's. I am not saying she is better overall but her power for a serve and volleyer, even one of the best, would be a huge challenge IMO. How do you even get to the net regularly on Serena's service points (if you even get the serve back well enough to get into the point at all), then on the flip side serving and volleying to Serena would be a similar challenge to serving to Seles.

Last edited by justineheninfan : Sep 22nd, 2011 at 10:04 AM.
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Old Sep 25th, 2011, 08:42 PM   #53
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Re: Martina Navratilova VS Serena Williams

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A 34yo Navratilova handled the best and one of the most powerful power hitters in women's tennis of all times game when she was 21yo and virtually at her prime, so you answer that question:

great video
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Old Sep 25th, 2011, 08:56 PM   #54
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Re: Martina Navratilova VS Serena Williams

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I think peak Martina could beat peak Serena, and vice versa. Remember playing a serve-volley game in this day and age and with 2002-2003's physical capabilities with 2008-2011 mental capabilities of Serena completing the player at a hypothetical peak, Serena could cut all or most of Martina's time once she got a handle on the serve. Martina was good at making incredible volleys, but many players of this generation (Serena included) would love the target at net, even if Martina was doing at least 50/50 (which at her peak with the aid of technology advances and fitness advances, would probably do better).

On a grass court, no doubt Martina. Clay would also probably favor Martina, but her groundstrokes aren't very powerful and Serena could eat a lot of those up because clay could afford her more time to set up and the slice would bounce up a bit more. On a slower hard court, it would probably be Serena, and on a faster hard court, it would be 50/50.
I agree with all of this. Well except that on grass I dont think it would be as easy for Martina as you seem to. The Serena serve is hardest of all to return on grass, and her return is deadly so you are under constant pressure to serve well too (especialy if you serve and volley).
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Old Sep 25th, 2011, 09:21 PM   #55
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Re: Martina Navratilova VS Serena Williams

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As for the idea that Serena could beat any of the current ATP players - a preposterous notion. Take a look at Djokovic play. The guys on the ATP tour may not be able to beat him but they can at least compete with him. Serena, or any other female player for that matter, would struggle to win a point against Djokovic, let alone a game.
Have you ever watched mixed doubles??
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Old Sep 25th, 2011, 09:46 PM   #56
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Re: Martina Navratilova VS Serena Williams

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.
I have seen a few youtube videos of Serena's punishing performances where the commentators were Japanese.
You can almost feel in their voices the pain the opponents must be going through after each Serena shots.
Usually, the male commentator sounds even more dramatic in conveying that pain in his voice.
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Old Sep 26th, 2011, 12:35 AM   #57
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Re: Martina Navratilova VS Serena Williams

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Peak Martina was using a wooden racquet. With that equipment, she would have beaten Serena easily. With modern racquets I've no doubt Serena would win. They were both very much players of their own eras.

As for the idea that Serena could beat any of the current ATP players - a preposterous notion. Take a look at Djokovic play. The guys on the ATP tour may not be able to beat him but they can at least compete with him. Serena, or any other female player for that matter, would struggle to win a point against Djokovic, let alone a game.
Maybe on his serve, but Serena would win games against Nole. Serena's Serve rivals the men. No One on the men's side serve with the precision Serena uses. And Serena serves just as fast as Nadal. So she would give even a top 10'er a run
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Old Sep 26th, 2011, 01:06 AM   #58
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Re: Martina Navratilova VS Serena Williams

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Have you ever watched mixed doubles??
have you? mixed doubles is the butt of both tours and should be taken with a grain of salt as a barometer of performance in singles.
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Old Sep 26th, 2011, 03:19 AM   #59
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Re: Martina Navratilova VS Serena Williams

Navratilova would win the FIRST match. Regardless of equipment.
Serena would win 13 of the 20. With modern equipment.


Thing is, when all was said and done, Serena is bigger and stronger. Faster? Not so sure. But being at net against the sheer velocity of Serena's passing shots? Navratilova is the best net player in history, but ....

In the long haul, sheer, unadulterated power rules. Superior firepower ALWAYS win in a fire fight.

Nav takes #1 cause she's so fucking god, and so fucking unusual, by today's standards. But long-haul ...... Serena IS that good.
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Old Sep 26th, 2011, 03:34 AM   #60
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Re: Martina Navratilova VS Serena Williams

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Navratilova would win the FIRST match. Regardless of equipment.
Serena would win 13 of the 20. With modern equipment.


Thing is, when all was said and done, Serena is bigger and stronger. Faster? Not so sure. But being at net against the sheer velocity of Serena's passing shots? Navratilova is the best net player in history, but ....

In the long haul, sheer, unadulterated power rules. Superior firepower ALWAYS win in a fire fight.

Nav takes #1 cause she's so fucking god, and so fucking unusual, by today's standards. But long-haul ...... Serena IS that good.
And don't forget her serve. Martina can't think she can return and volley on Serena's first serves. Also Serena would be able attack Martina's serve way more
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