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Old Aug 14th, 2011, 10:10 PM   #31
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Re: Has Caroline's consistency deserted her? It sure looks that way.

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Originally Posted by DownInAHole View Post
Really? Sure, I am being somewhat critical of her but I think I am doing so in a reasonable and respectful way. I laid out my theory and did my best to back it up with facts, that is a far cry from the typical conversations about Caroline in GM. Generally I try to hold myself to the standard that I would not type something about a person that I would feel uncomfortable saying to them in person. I don't think that anything I typed is at odds with that standard so I do not think I am being too harsh.

I absolutely believe in her but with that belief comes expectations. Too many fans appear to be of the opinion that her game is not suited to clay and that we should not expect her to do well on that surface. To me that school of thought is slightly insulting to Caroline and her abilities. I have a different opinion and believe that she is capable of doing much better on clay than she did this season.
Expecting her to do well is different to saying she's capable of doing better. Clay is her worst surface. Just about every expert would agree and Caro anf Piotr both say so. So the thread just looks like creating a stat to put Caro in the worst possible light.

As I said before - only Justine (2006-7) has managed to sustain a level of dominance since Serena 2002-2003 that Kim and Caro attained at the top for longer. Sure I'm disappointed in some of her results since IW. But it's like you have to dream up some stat to put her in the worst possible light concentrating with her play on her worst surfaces. Honestly - saying she's not the real #1 but the #7 reminds me of some of those convoluted stats like she's never beaten a former #1.

If the rest of the year she underperforms and has bad results, her true ranking - not your pseudo ranking - will reflect this.
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Old Aug 14th, 2011, 10:27 PM   #32
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Re: Has Caroline's consistency deserted her? It sure looks that way.

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Originally Posted by Protoss View Post
There have only been 2 big hard court tournaments after Indian Wells though. I don't put that much importance on her clay court results particularly in terms of consistency. I think it would better to keep an eye on her hard court performances to monitor her consistency.

After reaching her first big hard court final, the US Open in 2009, Caro has so far gone no more than 2 big hard court tournaments without reaching at least the semis and so far gone no more than 4 big hard court tournaments without reaching the final.

After reaching her first hard court final, Stockholm in 2008, Caro has so far gone no more than 5 hard court tournaments without reaching at least the semis and so far gone no more than 8 hard court tournaments without reaching the final.

After reaching the US Open final in 2009, Caro has so far gone no more than 3 hard court tournaments without reaching at least the semis and so far gone no more than 8 hard court tournaments without reaching the final.
Dang, I've just been crushed by all of the knowledge that you just dropped on me! She has had great hardcourt results and I hope that continues.
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Old Aug 14th, 2011, 10:52 PM   #33
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Re: Has Caroline's consistency deserted her? It sure looks that way.

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Originally Posted by terjw View Post
Expecting her to do well is different to saying she's capable of doing better. Clay is her worst surface. Just about every expert would agree and Caro anf Piotr both say so. So the thread just looks like creating a stat to put Caro in the worst possible light.

As I said before - only Justine (2006-7) has managed to sustain a level of dominance since Serena 2002-2003 that Kim and Caro attained at the top for longer. Sure I'm disappointed in some of her results since IW. But it's like you have to dream up some stat to put her in the worst possible light concentrating with her play on her worst surfaces. Honestly - saying she's not the real #1 but the #7 reminds me of some of those convoluted stats like she's never beaten a former #1.

If the rest of the year she underperforms and has bad results, her true ranking - not your pseudo ranking - will reflect this.
Well, discounting green clay and indoor carpet (which I'm not sure is used anymore) there are only three surfaces and one of them is going to be her weakest but that does not mean she can not win or do well on it. I guess the main thing that disappoints me is that as far as point totals go she was not able to do much better in the 2011 clay season when she was healthy and an improved player over the 2010 season when she was to no small degree hampered with an ankle injury. Are there any great clay court players in today's WTA? Certainly there is no one that dominates in the way that Nadal does in the ATP or in the way that Justine Henin did. I think it is fair to say that there is no one dominant clay player that is stymieing Caroline's ability to win on clay. Look no further than Maria Sharapova for an example of a player that has traditionally struggled on clay but was able to have some impressive results on it this season despite those past struggles.

I should also like to point out that this thread is not just about clay as it also encompasses grass and hardcourts and I plan to update the first post after Cincinnati is over. Further, I challenge you to find a quote of mine where I made the claim that Caroline is "not the real #1 but the #7." Of course she is still the real number one, her results and ranking reflect that. After the loss to Vinci I was wondering how she had done in the middle part of the season and after doing the maths I was slightly shocked to see that there were six players ahead of her. Maybe that is common knowledge but I found it surprising and thought that it was worth sharing. If my intention was to bash Caroline and belittle her I would have posted this thread in GM where I have no doubt that it would have flourished before degenerating into the usual chorus of "Caroline sucks and she is the worst number one ever" the way that all of her threads end up. I was hoping to be able to have a conversation about her struggles in the middle of the season that was critical but at the same time respectful.
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Old Aug 14th, 2011, 11:33 PM   #34
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Re: Has Caroline's consistency deserted her? It sure looks that way.

Her middle of the season wasnt bad, except for the slam losses.
Miami was right after IW. Then she won Charleston, Stuttgart final. Another loss to Goerges in Madrid, Rome SF, won Brussel, won Copenhagen.

Thats a pretty decent run. The 2 slam losses were to players she beats, so those are bad losses.

Toronto was wind & rust, but her focus wasnt there, or she at least wins set 2 from 5-1 up.

Next goal is USO, thats the next time you really analyze where she is, although an early loss in Cincy is definately a warning sign. A USO Final appearance overrides all these Premiers.
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Old Aug 15th, 2011, 10:44 AM   #35
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Re: Has Caroline's consistency deserted her? It sure looks that way.

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Her middle of the season wasnt bad, except for the slam losses.
I agree, but not quite. The first round in Båstad was disappointing too. Caroline won the match, of course.
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Old Aug 15th, 2011, 12:40 PM   #36
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Re: Has Caroline's consistency deserted her? It sure looks that way.

Caroline was injured there. But the early losses at the last 2 slams override the other results.
Eventually she has to be able to peak at majors. The best players go for the biggest titles, and losing to Hantuchova/Cibulkova leaves some question marks about her ability to win big titles.
Makes USO & AO more important
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Old Aug 16th, 2011, 11:09 AM   #37
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Re: Has Caroline's consistency deserted her? It sure looks that way.

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Caroline was injured there.
She wasn't injured in the first match at Båstad (the badly played one). She played a great first set in the second match. Then she got injured.
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Old Aug 16th, 2011, 03:19 PM   #38
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Re: Has Caroline's consistency deserted her? It sure looks that way.

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She wasn't injured in the first match at Båstad (the badly played one). She played a great first set in the second match. Then she got injured.
Caroline also didnt play well in Toronto against Vinci.
So that is the immediate issue. To play well. Then to play well in NYC.
Having a bad day is okay if she can win the match
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Old Aug 16th, 2011, 04:00 PM   #39
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Re: Has Caroline's consistency deserted her? It sure looks that way.

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So that is the immediate issue. To play well. Then to play well in NYC.
I agree with that notion. I am looking forward to Wednesday - hey that's tomorrow!
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Old Sep 28th, 2011, 05:24 PM   #40
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Re: Has Caroline's consistency deserted her? It sure looks that way.

Caro has only made it to the quarters of 1 out of 4 premier 5 or greater hard court tournaments after Indian Wells and to the quarters of 3 out 7 hard court tournaments overall.

For someone whose best surface is hard court, both those figures seem rather low.

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