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Old Apr 23rd, 2010, 04:52 PM   #1636
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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Originally Posted by PamShriver View Post
I really feel like the knee injury around Fed Cup time was the end...after that she really was never even close to number 1. She had a fantastic start in '86, winning Oakland, Key Biscayne and Miami (knocking off Graf twice), I believe her first loss of the season was to Nav in Dallas, then she lost a toughie to Hana at the VS Championships, but won Marco Island, Houston and Paris, only losing to Graf at Hilton Head before Wimbledon. She was really right there with Martina going into the Summer but things fell apart with the knee during Fed Cup and then the loss to Sukova and that was her season.
Coming into '87, with a rapidly improving Graf, she never was able to get back on board.
And I guess the wins over Graf were right at the point when Graf moved from very good to great. I always felt that she struggled badly with Graf thereafter. In a way reminiscent of how she came up short against Austin in 79 and 80 and Navratilova in 83 and 84.
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Old Apr 23rd, 2010, 04:55 PM   #1637
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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That's true. Even more to her credit when she proved that she was clearly the second-best player at such slams as Wimbledon 87 (her semi with Martina was the match of the tournament) and Australian Open 88. Then there were other magic moments post-1986, like the crushing of Seles at the 1989 US Open or the dramatic win at Houston in 1987, ok it was clay, but she had no match practice after her long lay-off, and beat Hana (above her on the computer after winning AO) in the semis and then Martina (No. 1 on the computer) in the final, playing amazing attacking tennis (Martina served for the match in the third set). And in 1987-89 Chrissie's best surface for making her seeding at grand slams was actually grass!
I didnt realise she had beaten Mandlikova on the way to winning Houston, a tournament that was on clay wasnt it? Can you remember when the decline began in the Mandlikova physical state that year?? I loved Hana but it is all a bit misty in my mind.
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Old Apr 26th, 2010, 10:10 PM   #1638
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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It was amazing to be number two at that stage. I agree, although I do feel that Navratilova was still a likely GS winner at 37, whereas by 88 it was pretty clear that Chrissie was unlikely to win another major.
I would argue that with just 2 more points, she would have won the 1988 Australian Open. Graf was losing her brains & was all kinds-of bent out of shape by that stage in the match... the young Chrissie would never have let her get off the hook by making those errors she produced after pulling ahead 6-5. The grim reaper evert would have slammed the door shut with a steel-trap bang. but there's your age issue, nevertheless.

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Old Apr 27th, 2010, 02:49 AM   #1639
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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I would argue that with just 2 more points, she would have won the 1988 Australian Open. Graf was losing her brains & was all kinds-of bent out of shape by that stage in the match... the young Chrissie would never have let her get off the hook by making those errors she produced after pulling ahead 6-5. The grim reaper evert would have slammed the door shut with a steel-trap bang. but there's your age issue, nevertheless.
I don't agree there at all. As well as Chris was playing, there was no way she was going to beat Graf that day. As was evident for the first set and a half, Graf clearly had the upper hand in that match. Even if Chris managed to get to a 3rd set by taking the 2nd set TB, Graf would have triumphed anyway. Not sure if it was age that sealed the deal. At that stage in their rivalry, Graf was the better player. It would have had to be the worst mental breakdown of Graf's career for Chris to come back and win.

You also mentioned in some post that Ms. Evert at some point during her career "allowed" some rivals, i.e., Navratilova, Austin, and Graf to beat her. Apologies if I am not quite getting the wording right. I also disagree with that sentiment. Especially with Austin and Graf.

First Graf: their rivalry was 8-6 in favor of Steffi. And it was pretty straightforward, Chris wins the first 6 all in straight sets, Steffi wins the next 8, 7 of which were straight sets. The 1986 FCC final was the obvious turning point. I do think age, nerves, and the improvement from Graf contributed to pushing Steffi over the psychological barrier of beating Chris. It's too bad they didn't play again in 1986, because I think Chris would have won had they met in the 86 French semis, or on grass. Once 1987 started, when Chris was coming back after a layoff, she didn't have the physical ability to beat Graf, and that was required from Chris at the time. Plus Steffi was at such a high level physically and mentally from 1987 until Chris retired that it wasn't so much Chris 'allowing' Graf to win, but Steffi not allowing Chris to even have a sniff at a chance at a win. I thought Chris pushing Steffi in the 1989 VS of Florida was Chris' last stand, perhaps of her career (save the 1989 whalloping of Seles at the Open). Chris was also a realist too. Her divorce from Lloyd, knee problems, and age contributed to her drop to #3 (and heavens! a temporary drop behind Hana in early 1987!). She may not have liked that but she accepted it. She remained in contention at the majors, especially in 1988 where she had the 2nd best record for the year. But Graf was clearly the better player, and I believe Chris realized it, even though she still put up a fight. I don't think it was the same dimension as her rivalry with Martina. The Steffi-Chris rivalry wasn't really on equal footing post 1986.

Now as for the much maligned Austin, I admit I never got why Chris had some mental block against Tracy. But I also think much has been overplayed and overdone about the 3 beatings Tracy inflicted on Chris in Jan 1980 - 3 straight set shellackings in 2 tournaments in a 10 day period. Those matches were indoors - Tracy's best surface and Chris' worst, and at a time when Chris was coming off the most vigorous playing schedule of her career. Not to mention her marriage and the burnout that occurred very shortly thereafter. Quite frankly, I don't think Chris really cared that much at the time, and Tracy happened to be the one to inflict the damage. You can't discount those wins because they happened. Still you eliminate those and Chris has an 8-6 edge. And as I have maintained, Chris was the better player, no question. She got knocked off by Tracy on occasion, because Austin was a very good player. But when Chris set her mind to beating Tracy, she did. (And needing to get a little dig into Tracy, it would have been nice my dear if you had played some more clay events which Chris entered, i.e., the FCC post 1980, Amelia Island, or that tournament in Paris known as the French Open!)

It is conceivable Evert did cede much to Navratilova, but kind of like with Graf, she may have had no choice. For a time Navratilova was too strong physically and then mentally for Chris. I mean 12 matches in 1983-1984, and Chris wins two measly 6-4 sets!? Those 2 years may have been the only period, IMHO, of Evert's career where she mentally conceded the match to her opponent before it started, and was merely playing for a good showing. But proving the champion she was, Evert got up off the floor and made her way back, starting with the 1985 VS Florida final, where she played perfect tennis to stun Martina in straight sets.
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Old Apr 27th, 2010, 05:59 PM   #1640
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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Originally Posted by DennisFitz View Post
I don't agree there at all. As well as Chris was playing, there was no way she was going to beat Graf that day. As was evident for the first set and a half, Graf clearly had the upper hand in that match. Even if Chris managed to get to a 3rd set by taking the 2nd set TB, Graf would have triumphed anyway. Not sure if it was age that sealed the deal. At that stage in their rivalry, Graf was the better player. It would have had to be the worst mental breakdown of Graf's career for Chris to come back and win.

You also mentioned in some post that Ms. Evert at some point during her career "allowed" some rivals, i.e., Navratilova, Austin, and Graf to beat her. Apologies if I am not quite getting the wording right. I also disagree with that sentiment. Especially with Austin and Graf.
So we can disagree about it, I think Chris could have won the Lipton 88 match that she lost 6-4 6-4 right after the Aussie match as well. It was literally 1 or 2 points that made the difference in both hard-fought sets, and a mentally fitter Chris would not have been the one to blink on the 1 or 2 points in question. When I look at Graf screaming on court, looking as if she's going to cry, around the 5-5 mark in that Aussie final, I see a player about to have an enormous meltdown. And the ice lady should have seen to it that it happened. But she was simply past the prime of her powers.

RE; "let them win" it should be re-phrased to "let them have permission to beat" in that she got wiped out by all 3 of those players by scores around 6-1 6-2 during the periods I was sighting. All 3 are tremendous champions, so I would never say Chris could simply decide to beat them, they had just as much to say about how the match went, and on any day, Chris, Tracy, Steffi, & Martina could all win. But the fight Chris brought to the latter matches against all 3 showed she needn't have ever given them such leeway that she got pulverized. (The 89 Wimbledon I just discount entirely, as chris had barely played a match for so many months, she was in no condition to put up a valid fight, the way she may have had it been the USO 4R.)

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Old Apr 28th, 2010, 09:38 AM   #1641
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
I would argue that with just 2 more points, she would have won the 1988 Australian Open. Graf was losing her brains & was all kinds-of bent out of shape by that stage in the match... the young Chrissie would never have let her get off the hook by making those errors she produced after pulling ahead 6-5. The grim reaper evert would have slammed the door shut with a steel-trap bang. but there's your age issue, nevertheless.
Daze:wavey Although to her everlasting credit Evert did save some of the greatest last blasts of her career for this Aussie Open. And against a Graf who had hammered her a lot by this stage. What exactly happened when Evert pulled ahead 6-5?? Did she have opportunities to close out the set but didnt take them? And I have heard that the tennis against Navratilova in the semis was sublime. Its amazing that her first GS final was in 73 and yet there she was still in a GS final on a new surface in 88.
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Old Apr 28th, 2010, 09:44 AM   #1642
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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Originally Posted by DennisFitz View Post
I don't agree there at all. As well as Chris was playing, there was no way she was going to beat Graf that day. As was evident for the first set and a half, Graf clearly had the upper hand in that match. Even if Chris managed to get to a 3rd set by taking the 2nd set TB, Graf would have triumphed anyway. Not sure if it was age that sealed the deal. At that stage in their rivalry, Graf was the better player. It would have had to be the worst mental breakdown of Graf's career for Chris to come back and win.

You also mentioned in some post that Ms. Evert at some point during her career "allowed" some rivals, i.e., Navratilova, Austin, and Graf to beat her. Apologies if I am not quite getting the wording right. I also disagree with that sentiment. Especially with Austin and Graf.

First Graf: their rivalry was 8-6 in favor of Steffi. And it was pretty straightforward, Chris wins the first 6 all in straight sets, Steffi wins the next 8, 7 of which were straight sets. The 1986 FCC final was the obvious turning point. I do think age, nerves, and the improvement from Graf contributed to pushing Steffi over the psychological barrier of beating Chris. It's too bad they didn't play again in 1986, because I think Chris would have won had they met in the 86 French semis, or on grass. Once 1987 started, when Chris was coming back after a layoff, she didn't have the physical ability to beat Graf, and that was required from Chris at the time. Plus Steffi was at such a high level physically and mentally from 1987 until Chris retired that it wasn't so much Chris 'allowing' Graf to win, but Steffi not allowing Chris to even have a sniff at a chance at a win. I thought Chris pushing Steffi in the 1989 VS of Florida was Chris' last stand, perhaps of her career (save the 1989 whalloping of Seles at the Open). Chris was also a realist too. Her divorce from Lloyd, knee problems, and age contributed to her drop to #3 (and heavens! a temporary drop behind Hana in early 1987!). She may not have liked that but she accepted it. She remained in contention at the majors, especially in 1988 where she had the 2nd best record for the year. But Graf was clearly the better player, and I believe Chris realized it, even though she still put up a fight. I don't think it was the same dimension as her rivalry with Martina. The Steffi-Chris rivalry wasn't really on equal footing post 1986.

Now as for the much maligned Austin, I admit I never got why Chris had some mental block against Tracy. But I also think much has been overplayed and overdone about the 3 beatings Tracy inflicted on Chris in Jan 1980 - 3 straight set shellackings in 2 tournaments in a 10 day period. Those matches were indoors - Tracy's best surface and Chris' worst, and at a time when Chris was coming off the most vigorous playing schedule of her career. Not to mention her marriage and the burnout that occurred very shortly thereafter. Quite frankly, I don't think Chris really cared that much at the time, and Tracy happened to be the one to inflict the damage. You can't discount those wins because they happened. Still you eliminate those and Chris has an 8-6 edge. And as I have maintained, Chris was the better player, no question. She got knocked off by Tracy on occasion, because Austin was a very good player. But when Chris set her mind to beating Tracy, she did. (And needing to get a little dig into Tracy, it would have been nice my dear if you had played some more clay events which Chris entered, i.e., the FCC post 1980, Amelia Island, or that tournament in Paris known as the French Open!)

It is conceivable Evert did cede much to Navratilova, but kind of like with Graf, she may have had no choice. For a time Navratilova was too strong physically and then mentally for Chris. I mean 12 matches in 1983-1984, and Chris wins two measly 6-4 sets!? Those 2 years may have been the only period, IMHO, of Evert's career where she mentally conceded the match to her opponent before it started, and was merely playing for a good showing. But proving the champion she was, Evert got up off the floor and made her way back, starting with the 1985 VS Florida final, where she played perfect tennis to stun Martina in straight sets.
Excellent post my friend. Although going back to old ground I dont think that Austin ever ran away from Evert on clay. The idea is nonsense. But the point you made re Graf is so on the ball. I love Daze to bits but I cant see how anyone can seriously propose that Evert really looked like beating Graf at any stage post 87. That 89 Wimbledon semi was probably the most lopsided match Evert lost at GS level.
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Old Apr 28th, 2010, 09:47 AM   #1643
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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So we can disagree about it, I think Chris could have won the Lipton 88 match that she lost 6-4 6-4 right after the Aussie match as well. It was literally 1 or 2 points that made the difference in both hard-fought sets, and a mentally fitter Chris would not have been the one to blink on the 1 or 2 points in question. When I look at Graf screaming on court, looking as if she's going to cry, around the 5-5 mark in that Aussie final, I see a player about to have an enormous meltdown. And the ice lady should have seen to it that it happened. But she was simply past the prime of her powers.

RE; "let them win" it should be re-phrased to "let them have permission to beat" in that she got wiped out by all 3 of those players by scores around 6-1 6-2 during the periods I was sighting. All 3 are tremendous champions, so I would never say Chris could simply decide to beat them, they had just as much to say about how the match went, and on any day, Chris, Tracy, Steffi, & Martina could all win. But the fight Chris brought to the latter matches against all 3 showed she needn't have ever given them such leeway that she got pulverized. (The 89 Wimbledon I just discount entirely, as chris had barely played a match for so many months, she was in no condition to put up a valid fight, the way she may have had it been the USO 4R.)
DazeEvert was such a great tactician as well. I think in some ways she was lost as to how to beat Austin and Navratilova for a while, but then she went back to the drawing board and sussed it all out. Against Graf she was too long in the tooth and too tired to go back to the drawing board for very little purpose!!
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Old Apr 28th, 2010, 04:37 PM   #1644
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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I love Daze to bits but I cant see how anyone can seriously propose that Evert really looked like beating Graf at any stage post 87. That 89 Wimbledon semi was probably the most lopsided match Evert lost at GS level.
Wimbledon 1989 is not representative of Evert at all, as it was a miracle she even made it over to England, she had not played for ages, yet still made her seeding. Evert definitely had several matches when she looked like beating Graf post 87, but you have to go to 1988 and 1989, not 1987. 1987 was her "1983-84 with Martina" equivalent, whereas in 1988 and 1989 she was really up for the challenge against Graf, like she was from USO 1984 onwards against Martina.

Take the Boca Raton final in 1989. The only way Steffi got through was because Evert's Ice-Maiden mode was just not there, or at least melted a little, after 20 years of playing professional tennis in the hot sun (Chrissie started out in 1969). It was not technical superiority or strength that got her through. Chris handily took the first set, because she waited her time and then pasted the lines (something Steffi could not do; she preferred to blast her way through points). Also, Evert makes very clever forays to the net, throwing Steffi off rhythm. This was the first set Steffi, holder of the past 5 Grand Slams, had lost in goodness knows how long. Steffi gets the second set off to a bad start, barely holding after multiple deuces, but Evert lets her off the hook, something the Ice Maiden would just never have done, and Steffi took the second set. In the third set, there is controversy at 2-2 and deuce. Steffi's serve had been way shaky with lots of doubles. She serves an "ace", which Evert does not go for, seeing that it it not going to land in. The linesman on Evert's side was "unsighted," but the one on Graf's side actually stated that it was out. But the umpire refused to overrule, because it was "bright" or something (!). Chrissie spends the changeover giving him one of those "I'm not out here playing my butt off at [insert age] and you're overruling" (by the way, is that not the same umpire that infamously overruled Connors against Krickstein?) and goes out and immediately falls to 0-30 on her service. But she holds to make it 3-3, Steffi holds to make it 4-3, then gets one break and runs away with it 6-3. I think Steffi came through because Chris was no longer the Ice Maiden psychologically and she was thrown a little after the dispute with a lot of anger burning inside her (she had a John McEnroe moment in the first set, when she actually won breakpoint against Steffi's serve several times, but the linespeople did not call Graf's shots out - never mind, "Chrissie McEnroe" is there to sarcastically point their mistakes out to them before going to the change-over!). But it could have been a WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY if Chris had been given a break point on Steffi's serve at 2-2 in the third set and converted it; I very much think it could have gone like the first set, which she won 6-4. Therefore, I think it is wrong to conclude "I can't see how anyone can seriously propose that Evert really looked like beating Graf at any stage post 87."

Or take the Australian Open in 1988 - who knows what would have happened if they had played outdoors the whole time, because Chris was red-hot against Martina, who could do nothing against her. I think you said that Martina looked like she could win a grand slam at 37 or whatever, but Chris did not at 34. But Martina won Wimbledon in 1990 because Steffi went out earlier. If Steffi had gone out earlier in AO 88, it was Chris's for the taking, as she was easily the second-best player at that tournament.

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Old Apr 28th, 2010, 04:42 PM   #1645
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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Against Graf she was too long in the tooth and too tired to go back to the drawing board for very little purpose!!
Not quite true. In addition to the tactics she used in the above-mentioned match at Boca Raton - going for the lines and advancing to the net at opportune moments, not even when Steffi was particularly stretched - she used a clever tactic that I am not sure was ever used against Graf by anyone else, but should have been. She kept the ball to her backhand, of course, but then when she wanted to hit a winner, she went to Graf's forehand, so that Graf would generate the power, then she would use that power against her to go for a winner and end the point.
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Old Apr 28th, 2010, 05:16 PM   #1646
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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That 89 Wimbledon semi was probably the most lopsided match Evert lost at GS level.
Only casual viewers of the sport do not know that match isn't a measureable result. Evert had played FOUR matches before wimbledon, since her loss to seles at the end of march. She almost didn't go to wimbledon due to an ear infection that was effecting her balance but felt she HAD to say goodbye to those fans before her inevitable retirement.

if you believe that result would have happened had graf met the woman who played seles in new york, i have a padded cell arranged for you. why after so much chatter on these threads about that match would you continue to believe that match resembled some kind of play-level indicator?

And even AFTER that match, Graf said to the press "The only difference between me and Chris is that she's 34."
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Old Apr 29th, 2010, 09:03 AM   #1647
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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Originally Posted by Sumarokov-Elston View Post
Wimbledon 1989 is not representative of Evert at all, as it was a miracle she even made it over to England, she had not played for ages, yet still made her seeding. Evert definitely had several matches when she looked like beating Graf post 87, but you have to go to 1988 and 1989, not 1987. 1987 was her "1983-84 with Martina" equivalent, whereas in 1988 and 1989 she was really up for the challenge against Graf, like she was from USO 1984 onwards against Martina.

Take the Boca Raton final in 1989. The only way Steffi got through was because Evert's Ice-Maiden mode was just not there, or at least melted a little, after 20 years of playing professional tennis in the hot sun (Chrissie started out in 1969). It was not technical superiority or strength that got her through. Chris handily took the first set, because she waited her time and then pasted the lines (something Steffi could not do; she preferred to blast her way through points). Also, Evert makes very clever forays to the net, throwing Steffi off rhythm. This was the first set Steffi, holder of the past 5 Grand Slams, had lost in goodness knows how long. Steffi gets the second set off to a bad start, barely holding after multiple deuces, but Evert lets her off the hook, something the Ice Maiden would just never have done, and Steffi took the second set. In the third set, there is controversy at 2-2 and deuce. Steffi's serve had been way shaky with lots of doubles. She serves an "ace", which Evert does not go for, seeing that it it not going to land in. The linesman on Evert's side was "unsighted," but the one on Graf's side actually stated that it was out. But the umpire refused to overrule, because it was "bright" or something (!). Chrissie spends the changeover giving him one of those "I'm not out here playing my butt off at [insert age] and you're overruling" (by the way, is that not the same umpire that infamously overruled Connors against Krickstein?) and goes out and immediately falls to 0-30 on her service. But she holds to make it 3-3, Steffi holds to make it 4-3, then gets one break and runs away with it 6-3. I think Steffi came through because Chris was no longer the Ice Maiden psychologically and she was thrown a little after the dispute with a lot of anger burning inside her (she had a John McEnroe moment in the first set, when she actually won breakpoint against Steffi's serve several times, but the linespeople did not call Graf's shots out - never mind, "Chrissie McEnroe" is there to sarcastically point their mistakes out to them before going to the change-over!). But it could have been a WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY if Chris had been given a break point on Steffi's serve at 2-2 in the third set and converted it; I very much think it could have gone like the first set, which she won 6-4. Therefore, I think it is wrong to conclude "I can't see how anyone can seriously propose that Evert really looked like beating Graf at any stage post 87."

Or take the Australian Open in 1988 - who knows what would have happened if they had played outdoors the whole time, because Chris was red-hot against Martina, who could do nothing against her. I think you said that Martina looked like she could win a grand slam at 37 or whatever, but Chris did not at 34. But Martina won Wimbledon in 1990 because Steffi went out earlier. If Steffi had gone out earlier in AO 88, it was Chris's for the taking, as she was easily the second-best player at that tournament.
Thanks for that and you are right to correct me in the context of the Boca Raton final and the 88 Australian Open to an extent. The match in Florida certainly sounded a great one and now that I think back yes she was lucky even to be fit enough to play at Wimbledon in 89. She pulled out of Eastbourne with an ear infection if I remember now?? I remember so wanting her to win that last Wimbledon match with Graf but I suppose in the context of Chrissies lack of match play that was not realistic.
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Old Apr 29th, 2010, 09:06 AM   #1648
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
Only casual viewers of the sport do not know that match isn't a measureable result. Evert had played FOUR matches before wimbledon, since her loss to seles at the end of march. She almost didn't go to wimbledon due to an ear infection that was effecting her balance but felt she HAD to say goodbye to those fans before her inevitable retirement.

if you believe that result would have happened had graf met the woman who played seles in new york, i have a padded cell arranged for you. why after so much chatter on these threads about that match would you continue to believe that match resembled some kind of play-level indicator?

And even AFTER that match, Graf said to the press "The only difference between me and Chris is that she's 34."
DazeI think I have shown over the last year or so here that I am hardly a casual observer of the sport. I didnt indicate it was a match that showed much and I dont think at all it reflected relative standards. I was merely indicating that Graf was ahead of her at the time and myself had forgotten the context of that Wimbledon when Evert really shouldnt have played. And to immediately criticise everything I say about Evert when I am a great fan of hers and always will be is not so helpful to me when my intentions are good here.I still like you though!!!xx

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Old Apr 29th, 2010, 02:17 PM   #1649
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

wow, what a great line of respect and admiration for chrissie from steffi when she said after their boca raton match " the only difference between me and chrissie is that chrissie is 34! and later that year 35! and steffi is all of 19!

so basically chris is about old enough to be steffi's mother! lol! of course i guess one could say the same thing when chrissie was 19 and beating up on past their prime billie jean and margaret? although i believe that the age disparity and the talent is not the same! what i mean is that chrissie at 19, and billie jeant at 29 and margaret at 31, so both billie and margaret were still basically in their prime, i mean chris was 19 in 1974, the year before margaret had her unstoppable year in 1973, and the year after 1974 in 1975 billie would win wimbledon, so both were very much still in their prime i think, but chris battling steffi at 34 and steffi at 19, i think its a much greater wider chasm of age and talent, chrissie was really about 3 years past her prime and steffi at her zenith, so you have to give great respect and yes, awe at the talent of 34 year old chrissie!

i truly believe give chrissie her mental toughness when she was younger and at 34/35 on her best days she could be even with steffi!
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Old Apr 29th, 2010, 04:08 PM   #1650
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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Originally Posted by iainmac View Post
DazeI think I have shown over the last year or so here that I am hardly a casual observer of the sport. I didnt indicate it was a match that showed much and I dont think at all it reflected relative standards. I was merely indicating that Graf was ahead of her at the time and myself had forgotten the context of that Wimbledon when Evert really shouldnt have played. And to immediately criticise everything I say about Evert when I am a great fan of hers and always will be is not so helpful to me when my intentions are good here.I still like you though!!!xx
I wasn't putting you down with the 'casual observer' line, I was saying "You are above that" in your knowledge, and was surprised you seemed to be implying chris was not in any competitive running with graf. i always appreciate your comments!!! (except maybe the ones that go on and on about daily shopping trips!! ) ... but i've gotten over it. We basically agree on about 88% of tennis history. like evert>henin>austin.

Last edited by daze11 : Apr 29th, 2010 at 07:38 PM.
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