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Old Feb 19th, 2010, 09:27 PM   #1
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Courting Controversy

This thread will explore Margaret Court's comments or views outside of tennis. The first few posts will be copies i have made of other's post and put in here in a narrative order that hopefully makes sense.


Posted by Golovin Injured
Quote:
What are her personal/religious beliefs that are so controversial?
Posted by TennisVideos

Golovininjured - she has been outspoken, in her own personal view, about Navratilova not being a good role model and also that she doesn't agree or approve of the gay lifestyle in general. She is a devout right wing Christian. Each to their own.

I have met her a few times myself and have found her to be quite charming once you get to know her. And she is quite humble in regards to her tennis career and achievements. She doesn't really dwell on them - she seems to be focussed now in her church which she in fact runs.

Last edited by Rollo : Feb 19th, 2010 at 10:10 PM.
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Old Feb 19th, 2010, 09:38 PM   #2
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Re: Courting Controversy

Posted by Wimbledon 9

Quote:
She may be the best tennisplayer but with all her bad right religious beliefs she disqualifies to me as a human being.

Posted by John Boy
Quote:
Well said - I can't stand the woman!

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Old Feb 19th, 2010, 09:42 PM   #3
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Re: Courting Controversy

Posted by Tennis Videos

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBoy View Post
Well said - I can't stand the woman!
Well good for you. Have you ever met her or sat down and had a conversation with her so you could form a more accurate opinion?

Margaret Court, along with every other human being on the planet, has many sides to her. On the one hand she doesn't approve of the gay lifestyle, but on the other hand she provides many services to help the poor and needy. So you just can't say she is one thing. She has good and bad points like most of us in the human condition. Judge her if you wish, but just remember we all have our faults.

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Old Feb 19th, 2010, 09:59 PM   #4
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Re: Courting Controversy

Posted by Newmark

Quote:
"On the one hand she doesn't approve of the gay lifestyle, but on the other hand she provides many services to help the poor and needy."
I don't know whether or not Margaret Court has ever used that term - the "gay lifestyle" - although she has said that homosexuality is an abomination (abortion, too). Then again, she also said that the Virgin Mary appeared to her during a vision, so...

Anyway, I'm still wondering what the "gay lifestyle" actually is.

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Old Feb 19th, 2010, 10:07 PM   #5
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Re: Courting Controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by newmark401 View Post
"On the one hand she doesn't approve of the gay lifestyle, but on the other hand she provides many services to help the poor and needy."

I don't know whether or not Margaret Court has ever used that term - the "gay lifestyle" - although she has said that homosexuality is an abomination (abortion, too). Then again, she also said that the Virgin Mary appeared to her during a vision, so...

Anyway, I'm still wondering what the "gay lifestyle" actually is.
Posted by Dennis Fitz
Here is proof she has:

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...rsy.6009025.jp

Now, one wonders, would Madge provide services if someone were poor, needy, AND gay? Madge, darling, what would you do?

Sorry, I know folks want to trumpet Ms. Court as the greatest ever (AS IF!) but a little revisiting of her - yes she is entitled to them - bigoted ignorance is in order here. No, I have never sat down and had a chat with Ms. Court. Then again, she considers me an abomination. So it wouldn't make for very pleasant dinner conversation.

What still amazes me is how straight people like Ms. Court seem so confident in their ability to define something they know nothing about. My favorite (in an awfully, yucky kind of way) is when Madge declares, "People go into homosexuality thinking they're like that and they're actually not." I mean, how would she know?! And people "go into homosexuality" ?!?!?! She makes it akin to "going into show business" or, God forbid (and God should forbid many of them) ministerial work!!! Proving how narrow minded Ms. Court is, at least she admits it: "I'd want to keep them on the straight and narrow." (Yup, straight = narrow!)
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Old Feb 19th, 2010, 10:10 PM   #6
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Re: Courting Controversy

Posted by Gee Tee
It just seems to me that some members talk about that one particular aspect more than anything else. If Margaret Court had passed away in 1990, it wouldn't be an issue at all. But now something she's said on perhaps two or three occasions overwhelms her entire tennis playing career.
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Old Feb 19th, 2010, 10:13 PM   #7
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Re: Courting Controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisFitz View Post
Here is proof she has:

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...rsy.6009025.jp

Now, one wonders, would Madge provide services if someone were poor, needy, AND gay? Madge, darling, what would you do?

Sorry, I know folks want to trumpet Ms. Court as the greatest ever (AS IF!) but a little revisiting of her - yes she is entitled to them - bigoted ignorance is in order here. No, I have never sat down and had a chat with Ms. Court. Then again, she considers me an abomination. So it wouldn't make for very pleasant dinner conversation.

What still amazes me is how straight people like Ms. Court seem so confident in their ability to define something they know nothing about. My favorite (in an awfully, yucky kind of way) is when Madge declares, "People go into homosexuality thinking they're like that and they're actually not." I mean, how would she know?! And people "go into homosexuality" ?!?!?! She makes it akin to "going into show business" or, God forbid (and God should forbid many of them) ministerial work!!! Proving how narrow minded Ms. Court is, at least she admits it: "I'd want to keep them on the straight and narrow." (Yup, straight = narrow!)

Posted by TennisVideos

Look I am gay and have met the lady a number of times and she has been nothing but charming with me. Bag her out if you will but you are just showing your own colours here.
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Old Feb 19th, 2010, 10:18 PM   #8
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Re: Courting Controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisvideos View Post
Look I am gay and have met the lady a number of times and she has been nothing but charming with me. Bag her out if you will but you are just showing your own colours here.

Yes she did beat Jan Lehane in a few Aussie Finals. She also beat players like KING, BUENO, GOOLAGONG, TURNER, WADE, RICHEY etc along the way in others. So again, bag her out if you wish. It's not all black and white like Mrs. King would have you believe.

Posted by GeeTee
It's unbelievable to me that on a tennis forum, some people don't seem to want to actually talk tennis...
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Old Feb 19th, 2010, 10:20 PM   #9
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Re: Courting Controversy

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeTee
It just seems to me that some members talk about that one particular aspect more than anything else. If Margaret Court had passed away in 1990, it wouldn't be an issue at all. But now something she's said on perhaps two or three occasions overwhelms her entire tennis playing career.
Posted by Nelslus

*She's made these comments on WAY more than two or three occasions.

*I'd like you to make these same statements, say, to an African-American individual, if her comments had been virulently racist. And, good luck with that.

*Please also note that more times than not, if a person is prejudiced against one group, they have disdain for other minority groups- whether or not they're as public about their other prejudices.

*The thing is- being homophobic is still far too often the "safe" prejudice- as can be seen at least in American movies and TV shows. So, at least until this changes, some of us will continue to speak up. For some of us, we "talk about that one particular aspect more than anything else" because this is about our lives and well-being.

*No one in their right mind would question that Margaret belongs in any GOAT discussion. Otherwise, Mrs. Court has made her homophobic bed- so, I have no problem with her having to lie in it. Fine with me if someone wants to start a "Margaret but ONLY tennis discussions allowed" thread. Otherwise, I can't lose sleep for Mrs. Court over how often folks choose to bring up Mrs. Court's homphobia, here or anywhere. You want folks to focus on your accomplishments, tennis or otherwise? Maybe consider not being hateful then.
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Old Feb 19th, 2010, 10:24 PM   #10
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Re: Courting Controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by nelslus
*She's made these comments on WAY more than two or three occasions.

*I'd like you to make these same statements, say, to an African-American individual, if her comments had been virulently racist. And, good luck with that.

*Please also note that more times than not, if a person is prejudiced against one group, they have disdain for other minority groups- whether or not they're as public about their other prejudices.

*The thing is- being homophobic is still far too often the "safe" prejudice- as can be seen at least in American movies and TV shows. So, at least until this changes, some of us will continue to speak up. For some of us, we "talk about that one particular aspect more than anything else" because this is about our lives and well-being.

*No one in their right mind would question that Margaret belongs in any GOAT discussion. Otherwise, Mrs. Court has made her homophobic bed- so, I have no problem with her having to lie in it. Fine with me if someone wants to start a "Margaret but ONLY tennis discussions allowed" thread. Otherwise, I can't lose sleep for Mrs. Court over how often folks choose to bring up Mrs. Court's homphobia, here or anywhere. You want folks to focus on your accomplishments, tennis or otherwise? Maybe consider not being hateful then.
Posted by Thrust

It seems as though YOU are just as hateful as you say Margreat is. I am Gay, Margreat's age, and I can understand her thinkig about gay marriage and lifestyle. I agree with you that people who think people choose to be gay are ignorant of the actuality. However, I think it is unfair of you and others to think that because one does not apporove of the Gay lifestyle necessarily means they hate gay people. In the words of Oscar Hammerstein in South Pacific, one has to be taught prejudice, usually at a young age. It seems that Margreat's religion, like the Catholic Religion, is very anti Homosexuality. I do not believe in Gay marriage, but am against other forms of Gay discrimination, like the Don't Ask, Don't Tell of the US Military. One is entitled to their beliefs, even prejudices, as long as one does not mean to harm someone they do not approve of. How do you know if other players are also anti Gay, Black, Oriental etc.? As far as I know, Margreat has never condemed BJK, Cassals, Navratilova, Bueno or Virginia Wade as people because they were Gay. I agree with her that, in her era, being openly Gay was not a good image for any sport. Times change and today most people under 50 are probably much more acceptable of different lifestyles, Nationalities and Races. At least, I hope so!
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Old Feb 19th, 2010, 10:27 PM   #11
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Re: Courting Controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrust
It seems as though YOU are just as hateful as you say Margreat is. I am Gay, Margreat's age, and I can understand her thinkig about gay marriage and lifestyle. I agree with you that people who think people choose to be gay are ignorant of the actuality. However, I think it is unfair of you and others to think that because one does not apporove of the Gay lifestyle necessarily means they hate gay people. In the words of Oscar Hammerstein in South Pacific, one has to be taught prejudice, usually at a young age. It seems that Margreat's religion, like the Catholic Religion, is very anti Homosexuality. I do not believe in Gay marriage, but am against other forms of Gay discrimination, like the Don't Ask, Don't Tell of the US Military. One is entitled to their beliefs, even prejudices, as long as one does not mean to harm someone they do not approve of. How do you know if other players are also anti Gay, Black, Oriental etc.? As far as I know, Margreat has never condemed BJK, Cassals, Navratilova, Bueno or Virginia Wade as people because they were Gay. I agree with her that, in her era, being openly Gay was not a good image for any sport. Times change and today most people under 50 are probably much more acceptable of different lifestyles, Nationalities and Races. At least, I hope so!
Posted by Nelslus

Thrust, for you "one is entitled to their beliefs, even prejudices", until they happen to disagree with what you believe. Then, they get to be called hateful, apparently.

Thrust, you need to know that you are the only person ever anywhere on the internet that I have had to put on "Ignore"- after your revolting comments towards me after my admittedly revolting comments about Justine awhile back (and I wouldn't be surprised if you still can't see what the difference is, much less being Margaret Court's age and all.) I will admit that it is embarrassing to me that I have ever found the need to put someone on "Ignore", which I understand could be viewed as a childish thing to do. Guilty as charged.

Still, after reading this post of yours- suddenly, I'm not so embarrassed. So, thanks for that at least.

I only read this post of yours because I happened to go on this thread without signing in first. My bad. Won't ever un-Ignore you again, or read another Thrust post. As I am doing, I similarly heartily, heartily encourage you to ignore me. Would make both our worlds a brighter place.

Because I am very, very tired of seeing folks (seemingly more than usual as of late) attacking BFTP folks personally here. (Hint: Those of us who live in other worlds- sheeeesh.) Example of how the rest of us are: Chriswhiteside and I disagree quite strongly on a number of issues. And yet, we have always been very respectful towards each other, as Chris is a complete gentleman. It IS possible to disagree even very strongly and yet be respectful and even kind with each other. Wish folks who feel otherwise would just stick with the general WTA and ATP World threads- where personal attacks seem to be allowed, if not even encouraged.

AND, as for Mrs. Court, it took me all of 10 seconds to find the following about Mrs. Court on Wikipedia- admittedly not always exactly the best news source. BUT, let's just say that it doesn't take a lot of digging to come up with the following from numerous sources on the internet. If you still wish to speak up for Margaret's views (I BTW will always defend, say, Mrs. Court's right to say what she wishes- and for me and others to vehemently disagree), and/or justify her views because of the religion she chooses to follow, and/or that she has never condemned the other players for being gay (and it ain't tough to find out what she's said about BJK in the past) and/or not see how damaging her words (and what's posted below ain't all that Mrs. Court has said) can be, thrust- well, knock yourself out:

"In 1990, Court said that Martina Navratilova and other lesbian and bisexual players were ruining the sport of tennis and setting a bad example for younger players.

In November 1994, when delivering a speech at Parliament House in Canberra, Court exclaimed that "Homosexuality is an abomination to the Lord! Abortion is an abomination to the Lord!"

In 2002, Court said that homosexuals commit "sins of the flesh" and can be "changed".She stated that when the open era started, "there was quite a lot of [homosexuality] in there" and added that "a few of the older ones ... were [homosexual]", with younger players being "sort of snared in with it".These comments were made in the context of Damir Dokić's claim that he would kill himself if his high-profile professional tennis-playing daughter, Jelena, became a lesbian.

Court campaigned against laws proposed and eventually passed by the Government of Western Australia in 2002 that gave gay people and lesbians equal legal rights as de facto couples.In an interview she gave on Australian television concerning the laws, she expressed a belief that homosexuality could destroy families."

I BTW do find it extremely classy and understandable why BJK was there in Australia to honor Mrs. Court's incredible tennis career. And if and when Mrs. Court mellows, then all of this can be re-assessed.

Finally, I also wish to publicly apologize to tennisvideos- another complete gentleman, BTW. Clearly, tennisvideos wants this discussion in this thread to be more about Mrs. Court's tennis accomplishments- which I can respect. So, I'll just bow out of this thread. Which, after reading the aforementioned post up above, this ain't exactly a chore for me.
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Old Feb 19th, 2010, 10:34 PM   #12
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Re: Courting Controversy

Quote:
It IS possible to disagree even very strongly and yet be respectful and even kind with each other. Wish folks who feel otherwise would just stick with the general WTA and ATP World threads- where personal attacks seem to be allowed, if not even encouraged
We can all (and I include myself) follow you in this Nelslus

For all the differences in opinion overall it is important to be able to discuss/debate these matters openly.

Let's keep the tone of civility that has in general made us different from General Messages-thank you for reminding us of that Neslus.
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Old Feb 20th, 2010, 01:13 AM   #13
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Re: Courting Controversy

Well, Margaret is the perfect example of how religion can bring out both the best and the worst in people.

I agree about BFTP as compared to GM. I wish it would be possible to discuss the current players at GM in as civil a manner as we do the legends over here.
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Old Feb 20th, 2010, 01:39 AM   #14
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Re: Courting Controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
Posted by TennisVideos

Look I am gay and have met the lady a number of times and she has been nothing but charming with me. Bag her out if you will but you are just showing your own colours here.
Rollo, I don't think anyone expects Margaret to scratch your eyes out because you're gay (even if you make it known to her that you are).

The point is that people have a right to dislike public figures based on public comments they make and public displays of behaviour.

For example, is it fair to dislike Hewitt for his display of overt/covert (whichever way you see it) racism during his match against Blake at US Open '01?

I don't understand why people think that Court should be immune to criticism because she's a great tennis player.
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Old Feb 20th, 2010, 04:23 AM   #15
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Re: Courting Controversy

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
We can all (and I include myself) follow you in this Nelslus

For all the differences in opinion overall it is important to be able to discuss/debate these matters openly.

Let's keep the tone of civility that has in general made us different from General Messages-thank you for reminding us of that Neslus.
Nelslus believes that it would have been more appropriate to put these posts in the Nelslus, Rollo, Thrust and Margaret Court Are Evil Cows From Hell thread.
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