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SI: BEST EVER: Serena Gaining On Federer In Debate

92K views 2K replies 175 participants last post by  Dominic 
#1 · (Edited)
Serena RG triumph, the needle for best ever has kept moving and has now entered new territory.
She has earned a comparison to Federer in their race to achieve the honor in their respective "league"

This debate, which was unthinkable to non-Serena fan just a year ago, is now ripe in the public and among sport writers.

Serena Williams gaining on Federer in best-ever debate



After a win at Roland Garros, Serena Williams is now within six titles of Steffi Graf's record 22 majors.




"Best ever" arguments generally hit a roadblock in tennis, usually about the refined modern equipment that makes wooden rackets and gut strings so dramatically obsolete. So let's stay in the present and ask this question: Is Serena Williams challenging Roger Federer as the best player of this generation? And could she soon own that distinction all by herself?



It has reached the point where even the most cynical insiders view Williams with reverence, at once startled and blown away by her utter dominance on court. That's how it was with Federer at his best, a time when so many sporting legends -- from Rod Laver to Tiger Woods -- sat courtside to grasp the full measure of his greatness.



Recent memory tends to be the sharpest, focusing on Williams' 91-4 record over the past 14 months and another astounding performance from Rafael Nadal at the French Open. Federer appears to be in gradual retreat -- certainly no shock, by any reasonable standard -- while Williams might be playing the best tennis of her life. In that sense, these two 31-year-old players seem to be headed in opposite directions. But let's take a measured, long-view approach to the argument. I think a strong case could be made for either.



Breaking it down by categories:
The numbers. Before you start wondering if Nadal should be the man in this conversation, remember that between the 2003 Wimbledon and the 2010 Australian Open, Federer won 16 of the 27 majors. That's astounding, especially considering the ever-burgeoning globalization that has brought such depth to the men's tour. Federer is also working on a streak of 36 consecutive quarterfinals in the majors, and as colleague Jon Wertheim noted, only five other players even competed in all of those tournaments. Federer's numbers require a separate book, something to last through the ages, ideally crafted by fountain pen on seasoned parchment paper.



Williams can't match that brand of consistency, and, in fact, became known (often scorned) for missing tournaments over the years. Some felt she was too easily lured by distractions, but in retrospect, her multifaceted life kept her fresh and motivated. Her decisions were vital to her longevity. She has won each of the majors at least twice -- no other active player can make that claim, man or woman -- and with a total of 16, she looks like a cinch to pass Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova (18 each) and perhaps even make a run at Steffi Graf's 22.


The competition.
Scanning the list of Federer's final victims in majors over the years, names such as Lleyton Hewitt, Mark Philippoussis, Robin Soderling, Marcos Baghdatis, Fernando Gonzalez and Andy Roddick appear -- each an exceptional player, but falling short of the caliber Federer faces today in Nadal, Novak Djokovic and Andy Murray. Still, it's worth recalling Federer's absolute mastery in those days, fashioning a set of tools that would have dismantled anyone. Roddick's game fairly screamed "Wimbledon champion," yet he could never get past Federer. The purity of Andre Agassi's ball-striking was the stuff of legend, but I'll never forget his reaction after the 2005 U.S. Open final, when Federer won a tense third-set tiebreaker and then closed out Agassi with a 6-1 fourth set.



"There's nowhere to go," Agassi said. "Every shot you make has a sort of urgency to it. With other guys there's a safety zone, there's a way, even with Pete [Sampras]. But anything you do, Roger potentially has an answer for. He plays the game in a very special way. I haven't seen it before. It's crazy."
For Williams, the toughest challenges came early -- starting with the formidable Martina Hingis, outclassed by the 17-year-old Serena in the 1999 U.S. Open final. Serena had to deal with Jennifer Capriati, Lindsay Davenport, Kim Clijsters, Hingis, Justine Henin, Arantxa Sanchez Vicario and her own sister Venus, each of whom held the No. 1 ranking and did so fiercely, as opposed to the flighty Dinara Safina, Jelena Jankovic Ana Ivanovic and Caroline Wozniacki in contemporary times.



While Federer confronts the frightening proposition of easing toward retirement against Nadal, Djokovic and maybe a half-dozen big hitters capable of taking him down at any time, Serena has no rivals, no worthy challengers. If she won the next four majors without losing a set, no one would be the slightest bit surprised.



Technique.
While everyone takes note of Serena's serve, universally acclaimed as the best ever, has any female player been so devastatingly effective with the two-handed backhand? Evert could match her for accuracy (particularly impressive in the wooden-racket days), but Serena's power is a modern-day marvel. She can be a bit erratic with the forehand, but seldom alarmingly so, and she has great feel around the net. Other players might be quicker around the court, but Serena has kept herself remarkably fit and agile. In short: She has no weakness.



Then there's Federer, and let's face it, he's a cut above everyone -- maybe ever. What Agassi, Laver, Sampras and Bjorn Borg (among others) have admired so greatly was Federer's elegance, grace and anticipation, especially on points absolutely crucial to his survival in a match. It all seemed so effortless for him, and I'm sure he would resent that past-tense reference. He still brings the A-game on his best days


Intangibles.

In terms of what to expect at any given time, they couldn't be more opposite. Federer was a force at every major, guaranteed, never losing his temper beyond a snarl or a growl, quite properly aloof as the master of all he surveyed. Williams could be hurt, dealing with personal issues, absent altogether or playing in an unbridled fury, to the point of inexcusable meltdowns at the U.S. Opens of 2009 (against Kim Clijsters) and 2011 (Samantha Stosur).



On the other hand, Serena's doubles record sends her even farther into the historical stratosphere. It could be argued that she and Venus formed the greatest women's team of all time, and they've got the Grand Slam trophies to prove it. Federer has a magical touch around the net and could have reached the heights (I'd love to see Federer and a chosen partner take on Bob and Mike Bryan), but he simply didn't care that much about doubles -- not enough to routinely pack it into his schedule.



Here, perhaps, is the most significant intangible of all: Serena grew up with a big sister who was making tremendous inroads in the sport, a worldwide role model and all-conquering player at Wimbledon and the U.S. Open. Serena always described herself as the more temperamental, unreliable sister, given to wild flights of fancy, all of which could have undermined her talent, not to mention the fact that she unconditionally loved Venus and savored the many years they lived together. For Serena to rise to such heights, in the sport so many felt would pass her by, is one of the great athletic feats of our time.



Conclusion.

Not a clear call. If pressed, I'd go with Federer's 16 majors in 27 tries as the essential piece of information. Serena just reached 16, and she played her first Grand Slam tournament 15 years ago. But it feels as if Serena has reached Federer's level, just in terms of how she is viewed by the other players. And by all accounts, there is much more to come. Let "best of their generation" have a men's and women's division, and see how it looks five years from now.


Source: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/te...er-federer-serena-williams-best-players-ever/
 
#95 ·
espesially when she was almost crying when Sveta was giving her a lesson of claytennis
Well Almost all the time :D
 
#118 ·
I'm a huge fan of both. Fed has (or had) the most beautiful and versatile style ever. He has much greater variety than Serena, but he lacks at least 2 important things that are required to dominate in tennis, which Serena does have and that's:

1. Mental toughness. I cant remember if Fed ever saved matchpoints in important matches or came back from near loss situations against his main rivals. Serena has done this over and over again. She is even known for it. The queen of comebacks.
2. Consistency from the baseline. Feds BH is his known weakness, which causes him to lose many rallies from the baseline and not just against top players. While Serena has no weakness.

As for this thread, 2 things need to be taken into consideration.
1. Serena's injuries, which caused her to miss out on tournaments, but most importantly kept her out of the A shape for a long time.
2. Serena dominated her hardest oponents, which Fed failed to do.

Fed wins here because of the numbers, but I choose Serena. The thing that makes Serena greater for me is the fact that she is fearless when she is losing. She starts playing more agressive, while Fed goes into defense mode and folds. One thing she could learn from Fed is to control her emotions during the match and not show any sign off stress. Both are graceful after losses.

The greatest 2 tennis players of alltime! My faves :)
 
#119 ·
I'm a huge fan of both. Fed has (or had) the most beautiful and versatile style ever. He has much greater variety than Serena, but he lacks at least 2 important things that are required to dominate in tennis, which Serena does have and that's:

1. Mental toughness. I cant remember if Fed ever saved matchpoints in important matches or came back from near loss situations against his main rivals. Serena has done this over and over again. She is even known for it. The queen of comebacks.
2. Consistency from the baseline. Feds BH is his known weakness, which causes him to lose many rallies from the baseline and not just against top players. While Serena has no weakness.

As for this thread, 2 things need to be taken into consideration.
1. Serena's injuries, which caused her to miss out on tournaments, but most importantly kept her out of the A shape for a long time.
2. Serena dominated her hardest oponents, which Fed failed to do.

Fed wins here because of the numbers, but I choose Serena. The thing that makes Serena greater for me is the fact that she is fearless when she is losing. She starts playing more agressive, while Fed goes into defense mode and folds. One thing she could learn from Fed is to control her emotions during the match and not show any sign off stress. Both are graceful after losses.

The greatest 2 tennis players of alltime! My faves :)
Please see last sentence my signature. :wavey:
 
#122 ·
I don't understand why people keep comparing Serena to Roger. It's not a relevant comparison because they're on different tours. If anyone that's gaining on Roger, it should be Rafael Nadal who's sitting at #12. Is 5 more Roland Garros possible? Possibly depending on his knee. Even if you compare Serena with Roger, Serena isn't owned by anyone in her era, and that will forever taint Federer's legacy. Fed's era before a Nadal or Djokovic exploded onto the scene consisted of Roddick and Hewitt. That's quite a weak era compared to Serena. The one thing that Serena and Nadal also has over Fed is a career golden slam.
 
#125 ·
That's beyond laughable. Before Nadal learned how to adjust his game to grass and hardcourts and Djokovic decided to get serious and fit with his game, Fed's competition was Roddick and Hewitt. Serena had Capriati, Hingis, Davenport, Venus, Belgians, and now Sharapova and Azarenka.
 
#127 · (Edited)
We're all waiting on the rest of your post.

I'm assuming here because...

A) There's no 'Period' indicating sentence conclusion,
and
B) You didn't provide a single reason to support your belief.

Now, take your time and be thorough, okay? :angel:
 
#128 ·
We're all waiting on the rest of your post.

I'm assuming here because...

A) there's no 'Period' indicating sentence conclusion,
and
B) You didn't provide a single reason to support your belief.

Now, take you time and be thorough, okay? :angel:
I think h/she thought about it for a long time and couldn't figure out the reason why, but kept on believing it without reasons. Or maybe h/she is new to tennis and only know of Serena's competition being Sharapova and Azarenka.
 
#132 · (Edited)
OMG, reading some of the responses to the genesis of this thread makes it quit apparent of the lack of proper reading comprehension among so many of posters here. It is quite pitiful that so many of you interpreted the SI article as a simple normal comparison of an Orange (Roger Federer) to an Apple (Serena Williams) as if the Orange and Apple are the same and are comparable.

Rather, the writer of the SI piece says that both Roger Federer and Serena Williams, (who by the way, are each still active players), are each in a separate race to achieve the honor of the best-ever (GOAT) in “their respective League.”(ATP/WTA). Furthermore, the author implies that Roger Federer is further along in his race than Serena is in hers, but that with her RG triumph Serena is gaining on Federer in her race to where he is at in his. The comparison made in the article is not one of comparing a male player with a female player, but rather an integral comparison of two separate races of male and female for the male GOAT and female GOAT respectively. He said each of them are the “best of their generation” and let there be men’s best of his generation and a women’s best of her generation and see how it looks five years from now.

It is simplified like this:

Roger Federer the orange is in a race of oranges contending to be considered (and in some quarters he is already the clear cut best-ever) the GOAT among the best oranges of the history of the ATP, if he is not there already. Whereas, Serena Williams is in a race of apples contending to be considered the GOAT among the best apples of the history of the WTA; in his opinion she is not there yet, but “the needle for best ever has kept moving”.

Then, the author proceeded in giving a comparison of what Roger brings to his race and what Serena brings to her race with four distinct categories:- “the numbers, the competition, technique, and the intangibles”. The author gave “the numbers” category outright to the Federer race. He gave “the competition” category a toss-up rating, because “[While Federer confronts the frightening proposition of easing toward retirement against Nadal, Djokovic and maybe a half-dozen big hitters capable of taking him down at any time, Serena has no rivals, no worthy challengers. If she won the next four majors without losing a set, no one would be the slightest bit surprised]” although, “[For Williams, the toughest challenges came early -- starting with the formidable Martina Hingis, outclassed by the 17-year-old Serena in the 1999 U.S. Open final. Serena had to deal with Jennifer Capriati, Lindsay Davenport, Kim Clijsters, Hingis, Justine Henin,[Amelie Mauresmo], Arantxa Sanchez Vicario and her own sister Venus, each of whom held the No. 1 ranking and did so fiercely, as opposed to the flighty Dinara Safina, Jelena Jankovic Ana Ivanovic and Caroline Wozniacki in contemporary times]”. He gave basically a tie to each race with “the technique” category. And, he out rightly gave Serena’s race the “the intangibles” category.

The Author concluded with a “Conclusion” – “Not a clear call”, but if pressed he will go with Federer [race to the GOAT], due to 16 majors in 27 tries as the essential piece of information.

The SI article is not a comparison of apples with oranges. It a comparison of the race among oranges with oranges and the race among apples with apples for the GOAT honors in each respective league.
 
#134 ·
The Author concluded with a “Conclusion” – “Not a clear call”, but if pressed he will go with Federer [race to the GOAT], due to 16 majors in 27 tries as the essential piece of information.
Is the article worthy and how important for us should be opinion of the author if he is making such factual mistakes?
 
#151 ·
Let's play this game: Given a target shooting competition 4 accuracy, would you trust Serena 's serve to hit a target more consistently or Fed's? Backhands? Serena's or Fed's? Forehands? Drop shots? Overheads?
Serena
SERENA
Fed
Fed
Serena


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#152 ·
Federer
Federer
Federer
Federer
Federer

Even in terms of serve, peak Federer was almost Sampras with great variety and power on his serve. Serena is still hitting almost 80% down the T, but for women it's too fast even if they anticipate the direction
 
#153 · (Edited)
Serena better than Federer? :spit:

She doesn't even lead women in most GS titles yet..... so no.

Serve - Tie

Movement - Federer by a small margin

Variety - Federer by a country mile

Power - Serena

Forehand - Federer

Backhand - Serena by a small margin

Net play - Federer

Mental strength - Serena by a small margin

Tactical ability - Federer
 
#157 ·
Wait people think that Serena has a better serve than prime Fed??? :lol::lol::lol:

The only thing Serena has on this argument is an extra French open title and the way she absolutely destroys her current opponents. The latter is definitely GOAT worthy, no matter the competition. But for the former, she does not have to deal with clay GOAT Nadal.

Federer's consistency alone can never be matched. To be able to make 20 something GS semifinals in a row, in the modern game is insane.

However, Serena is GOAT in the women's game. :hearts:
 
#161 · (Edited)
Wait people think that Serena has a better serve than prime Fed??? :lol::lol::lol:

The only thing Serena has on this argument is an extra French open title and the way she absolutely destroys her current opponents. The latter is definitely GOAT worthy, no matter the competition. But for the former, she does not have to deal with clay GOAT Nadal.

Federer's consistency alone can never be matched. To be able to make 20 something GS semifinals in a row, in the modern game is insane.

However, Serena is GOAT in the women's game. :hearts:
Indeed. Its also insane winning all 4 GS in a row. Something only Graf and Serena have done in modern time. :worship:
 
#159 ·
I am a fan of Roger & Serena & neither are the GOAT. As much as I love Roger, you can't get punked as much as he has by Nadal & be called the greatest. Federer is an all time great but it was only while the Roddicks & Blakes of the world were bowing down to him did he reign. As soon as Nadal came around & stood up to him & said, not only do I want all the French Open titles but I want your Wimbledon titles as well, he never beat him in a major again.

I'm not a naive fan, I know the ONLY reason Fed has that 2009 French is because he was blessed that Soderling got hot one day, preventing Nadal from getting to the final. Even that loss to Rafa at the Aussie is still embarassing as a fan. Rafa had played a grueling match with Verdasco just 2 days early & Fed still couldn't beat him in the finals... on hard court at that.

Serena is not the GOAT but give me her against her archrival Justine anyday versus Roger against Nadal. Roger just isn't winning... sadly probably not even on grass. And if that's the case, how can you be GOAT??? :sad:
 
#169 ·
I'm just having fun reading posts that desperately attempt to press the idea that Federer/ATP is greater than Serena/WTA overall.

The facts just don't hold true.

1) Serena just won her second red clay slam title, to round off her impressive 'all slam titles won twice' distinction---immediately catapulting her ahead in the all-surface/court, total/complete game category.
2) Serena has the superior serve of both men and women.
- Debate this one with the tennis experts if you don't believe this. There are plenty of articles that agree.
- Meaning, placement, precision, 1st & 2nd service effectiveness, variety, consistency, etc...
3) Serena is the current holder of the most Aces in a single tournament (http://www.espn.co.uk/tennis/sport/story/158997.html#), male or female.
4) Serena even has more Olympic GOLD metals (4 vs 1)
5) Serena started winning slams over a longer period, and is still winning them---on her reportedly weakest surface.
6) At 31 y.o. Serena is actually improving, not waning like Federer, meaning that Serena is likely Superior fitness-wise than Federer. Even taking into account her numerous injuries and surgeries.
7) The first player in history, male or female, to win the career Golden Grand Slam in both singles and doubles (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...-gold-medal-olympics-sharapova_n_1741297.html)
- Murray beat Federer (in straight sets, to be precise) to denying Federer a Career golden slam in 2012.
8) Currently, Serena has no equal, or legitimate rival, and holds a positive H2H against all active players, as well as retired slam rivals.
- Federer completely fails to defeat Nadal on a consistent basis. In fact, Federer has a losing 20-10 head-to-head against rival Nadal.

So let's be straight here with who is accomplishing more within their given association, and let's the documented facts speak for themselves, shall we?

Neither can be crowned GOAT, as yet.
However, Serena is simply closer as a WTA player, that Federer is as an ATP player, because of the above.

But again, it's folly to compare a male to a female, because they compete in two completely separate arenas/associations.
But nice try and good luck to those who believe that they can.
 
#160 ·
I think Serena is more of a GOAT than Federer in the sense that you can definitely argue she would beat anyone at her best. With Federer that has proven to be the exact opposite.

Although achievement wise she's still a long way off whereas Feder is the GOAT in that regard. Although for some reason, I think we're far too dismissive of context when judging the women, there are players quite a bit off Federer's achievements who are still argued as the best whereas no woman will be until she trumps whatever records were set before her.
 
#179 ·
When Serena loses again, and she will, have the owners of TF looked into increasing band width? Because I guarantee you that the board is going to crash. :lol:
 
#184 ·
6) At 31 y.o. Serena is actually improving, not waning like Federer, meaning that Serena is likely Superior fitness-wise than Federer. Even taking into account her numerous injuries and surgeries.
RVD, I really like you as a poster, but as Johnny Mac would say, you cannot be serious. You cannot begin to compare the mileage on Fed as opposed to the mileage on Serena. Tommy Haas is having a halcyon 30+ largely because his mileage was unfortunately, severely limited by injury. Start counting up the number of games played, including a Bo5 format that Fed has played over 1000 matches on tour. A quick check showed Serena playing 928 matches, of which 707 were singles(winning 597). Fed on the other hand recorded his 900th tour win during this year's RG, out of 1105 matches played.

Again, when you consider that this includes 54 consecutive majors, reaching the finals of 24, and always having to play at least 3 matches, and often 4 and 5...

Even as a woman, I'd be the first to admit that the men's and women's tour are apples and oranges
 
#194 ·
That's all well and good, but Serena isn't done competing. So what we have on our hands is a debate that will have to wait until both Serena and Federer are retired, no?

I believe that what we are engaged in here is entirely speculatory.
Though, the crime is still in comparing a male to a female.

However, if the above is the only point of my argument that you find to be arguable, then what of the other 7 ?
If the other 7 are indipsutable, doesn't that mean Serena is far and away closer to GOAT status than Federer?

I think what we can all safely take from this comparison is both athletes are freak'n amazing in their own right.
And given that they are both still active, we can continue to enjoy great competitive tennis for some time to come. :)
 
#200 ·
When Federer can win all four Grand Slams in a row and gets a winning H2H over ALL his chief rivals then we can revisit this conversation. *MIC DROP AGAIN*




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When Serena can keep the No. 1 ranking for over 200 weeks in a row, and win the most Grand Slams of the women's tour in at least the Open era, then we can revisit this conversation.

See how easy it is
 
#202 ·
Well your argument fails on two fronts: Serena has two Mixed Grand Slam titles, so she is use to returning huge serves and second Roger does not serve in the 130 range and neither does Nadal, only a handful of men serve that big. Most men top out in the 120 range, like SERENA!!


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#203 ·
You conveniently forget that most men return way better than the all too often embarrassingly ineffectual returns on the women's side. I for one, do not want to see your type of argument end up at the hugely (again) embarrasing spectacle of a Bobby Riggs v Billy Jean King.
 
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