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Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 5

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#1 ·
The last volume has passed 5000 posts, time to start a new one. It's not the most positive of times with Caro just losing the #1 ranking and firing her coach, but while there isn't much we can do about that we can at least try to keep a civil tone here, even if we're somewhat frustrated about the way Caro's career is going right now. Ok?



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#4,348 ·
A couple highly-flawed arguments I've been seeing:
1.Because Caro didn't get overpowered very often,that somehow proves that it was nearly impossible to do;quite frankly,that's absurd b--lshit! It's true that she was/is talented,and that made it DIFFICULT for BB opponents,but it was FAR from 'nearly impossible'.It didn't happen that much in part because of Caro's skill...and also b/c BBs,by their nature,tend to be erratic,impatient and inconsistent.The problem was when they WEREN'T exhibiting those negative traits,Caroline had no recourse or way to counterattack.

2.To paraphrase,Petra was so flawless the day she destroyed Caroline that she would have beaten ANYone the same way....More B--lshit!People here are trying to rationalize Caro's helplessness by pretending that Petra was some unstoppable cyborg,as if a mere mortal were fighting hand-to-hand with the Terminator character.Now I'M a Petra fan who celebrates her successes,but it's ridiculous to assert that she would've won with the same scoreline vs. Graf,Henin,Court,Evert or one of the WS.Not only would the match have been closer,PETRA MIGHT NOT HAVE WON,PERIOD!These greats I listed knew how to use a power-hitter's pace against her,and it's no wild speculation that one of them could have demoralized Petra by withstanding her best shots and counterattacking.Caro simply lacked the capability to do that

3.The final B.S.: Because it didn't happen too frequently,there was an almost flukish element to the wipeouts vs. BBs,so it didn't require any adjustments.Comparing those losses to,let's say,Serena's loss to Razzano,is a poor analogy.Serena lost largely b/c she just didn't play very well that day(and we'll give Razzano credit for playing decently,too);it WASN'T due to any specific flaw in her style of play.It's asinine to suggest that Caroline shouldn't have worked on her inability to counterattack merely b/c she wasn't exploited that much.Compare her style to a car that's easy to rob....like many Nissans,for example.The reality that they are easy to steal is an unavoidable,negative aspect of those cars;if you're fortunate enough that you NEVER have to park in an area where car theft is common or a risk,THAT'S GREAT!...but that does nothing to change the truth that the car likely WILL get stolen if you DO have to park in an urban area or any place where theft is more common.It's a design flaw in the car,and it doesn't disappear or diminish one iota just because you were lucky enough to NOT get the car stolen over,say,a 6-month period.

In closing,I'll agree again with everyone who asserts that Caroline's defensive level has dropped off...and that she shouldn't have neglected her defensive prowess just to get more aggressive.That was poor training/preparation on her part.However,I'm not going to play Revisionist History and pretend that the old flaws didn't exist merely because her remedy was so poorly implemented.There's no reason WHATSOEVER to suggest that,w/o tweaking in a few needed elements,Caroline would've broken thru at a Slam any more than Dinara did.In fact,Caro had LESS success than Dinara at Slams despite being a more mentally stable character...and,of course,I'm referring to Caro's peak period with the previous style of play
 
#4,364 ·
I'm probably taking your post out of context, so I apologies if I am. You make some interesting points but there are a few holes.

A couple highly-flawed arguments I've been seeing:
1.Because Caro didn't get overpowered very often,that somehow proves that it was nearly impossible to do;quite frankly,that's absurd b--lshit! It's true that she was/is talented,and that made it DIFFICULT for BB opponents,but it was FAR from 'nearly impossible'.It didn't happen that much in part because of Caro's skill...and also b/c BBs,by their nature,tend to be erratic,impatient and inconsistent.The problem was when they WEREN'T exhibiting those negative traits,Caroline had no recourse or way to counterattack.
I think you're underestimating the form and moral driven element of a defensive strategy. It requires extreme confidence and focus to pull off, and much more so than a simpler BB game. Further the way you phrase the bold part is suggestive of control being with the BB, which isn't quite true. Attack means very little if it isn't effective, and in a defensive strategy the key is to rendering your opponents attack ineffective. It's as much about denying a normally winning strategy from your opponent, and tactically forcing them to try approaches beyond their usual comfort zone. Typically that involves feeding variety of weight and length and denying their game with basic placement.

2.To paraphrase,Petra was so flawless the day she destroyed Caroline that she would have beaten ANYone the same way....More B--lshit!People here are trying to rationalize Caro's helplessness by pretending that Petra was some unstoppable cyborg,as if a mere mortal were fighting hand-to-hand with the Terminator character.Now I'M a Petra fan who celebrates her successes,but it's ridiculous to assert that she would've won with the same scoreline vs. Graf,Henin,Court,Evert or one of the WS.Not only would the match have been closer,PETRA MIGHT NOT HAVE WON,PERIOD!These greats I listed knew how to use a power-hitter's pace against her,and it's no wild speculation that one of them could have demoralized Petra by withstanding her best shots and counterattacking.Caro simply lacked the capability to do that
If we are talking about wimbledon? Lack of traction and thus court speed to get balls back, combined with great placement and low bounces, will beat Caroline. As for the other comparisons, they are all very subjective, but I think it would be wrong to over estimate other opponents chances that day, especially Nav and Co. The pace of the ball has radically changed. Truth is nobody knows, and since the balls and courts have changed yet again since that day, nobody ever will. I was a huge fan of the old girls, and unfortunately the game has changed beyond recognition to a less entertaining form where sadly the old skill sets are largely irrelevant.

3.The final B.S.: Because it didn't happen too frequently,there was an almost flukish element to the wipeouts vs. BBs,so it didn't require any adjustments.Comparing those losses to,let's say,Serena's loss to Razzano,is a poor analogy.Serena lost largely b/c she just didn't play very well that day(and we'll give Razzano credit for playing decently,too);it WASN'T due to any specific flaw in her style of play.It's asinine to suggest that Caroline shouldn't have worked on her inability to counterattack merely b/c she wasn't exploited that much.Compare her style to a car that's easy to rob....like many Nissans,for example.The reality that they are easy to steal is an unavoidable,negative aspect of those cars;if you're fortunate enough that you NEVER have to park in an area where car theft is common or a risk,THAT'S GREAT!...but that does nothing to change the truth that the car likely WILL get stolen if you DO have to park in an urban area or any place where theft is more common.It's a design flaw in the car,and it doesn't disappear or diminish one iota just because you were lucky enough to NOT get the car stolen over,say,a 6-month period.
Caroline's game has always been in adjustment. evolving, changing, and some of your examples should reflect the specific changes made prior to the losses. Caroline's strategy also changes from match to match, and in match. You lay out a strategy and some times it's wrong and gets exposed. That's different to a loss while having a working strategy but you hit that mental wall and panic, and again different to a loss with a strategy thats hamstrung by a technical (equipment) or physical fault (injury). I'm not sure why you suggest Caroline wasn't able to counter attack? She had one of the best disguised killer BH's out there, second to only to Kim at its peak.

Btw. Car analogies never work, and considering most theft is now with the owners keys also moot. :)

In closing,I'll agree again with everyone who asserts that Caroline's defensive level has dropped off...and that she shouldn't have neglected her defensive prowess just to get more aggressive.That was poor training/preparation on her part.However,I'm not going to play Revisionist History and pretend that the old flaws didn't exist merely because her remedy was so poorly implemented.There's no reason WHATSOEVER to suggest that,w/o tweaking in a few needed elements,Caroline would've broken thru at a Slam any more than Dinara did.In fact,Caro had LESS success than Dinara at Slams despite being a more mentally stable character...and,of course,I'm referring to Caro's peak period with the previous style of play
I have seen elements of her old defence recently. Her physique is much lighter and faster than it was for a long time while doing (probably too much) boxer training. She needs court speed and strokes she can trust to play her game. I think Caroline could have broken through, but it didn't work out that way and the pressure to do so just rises with attempts. She had a similar "wall" at PM's that once she finally did break through, she went on a rampant streak of winning them. Her confidence obviously plays a huge part in her game, and she will need strokes that she has 100% confidence in to take the step back to the top for another try.

I can't really comment on Dinara, except that she has a lot of explaining to do.

PM me if you you reply incase I miss it Bruce :)
I hardly ever visit this whinge palace anymore.

Back on topic, bitch away cave dwellers... :)
 
#4,352 ·
I think no matter what the style, great players hate losing, and do everything they can to win.So I see the huge problem is her mental toughness. A full year of this, is a very bad sign going forward..Because we know she has the tools to have better results.Any player can have a loss to Kerber or Radwanska, and Caro is 0-5 vs those two players in 2012.But when a former #1 is losing to Pavlyuchenkova, Begu, Safarova, Mchale, Ivanovic, Kanepi, Paszek, Vinci, Pennetta.Its the combination of clearly being worse than YEC platyers PLUS all the losing to nonYEC players.This is mental weakness, a lot of it. Bad errors at key moments. All the sets she started down 1-5 (3 sets in a row vs Kanepi)We know she used to be capable of better. But maybe this is the best she can do, because her focus isnt strong enough to do better
 
#4,360 ·
As long as there are tennis courts in the neighbourhood where she can practice it shouldn't be a problem. She can't train 24 hours in a day. Whatever she does in her spare time, be-it watching golf, shopping or whatever else doesn't really matter. I think Caroline looked in terrific physical shape in Beijing, so I doubt that being with Rory equals no training.
 
#4,356 ·
#4,359 ·
Her season is practically over? Yeah, I guess that's the kind of work ethic we should go by..

There's always excuses, if she goes to watch golf after a R1 slam loss it's because she needs to take her mind of tennis, or because she's injured or because training wouldn't make any sense or whatever.

The weird thing is, none of the other players are taking joy rides this time of the season. So you really don't have to wonder why she's falling behind the competition. I don't care if it's for a sponsor or not, she does way too much off court stuff like this, especially for a player in her situation. You know who takes jollies at this time of the year? Serena... the difference is, she can afford it, Caroline can not..at least as long as she wants to be seen as a semi-serious tennis player.

The next two tournaments would be a great chance to set her up for 2013 but I guess that's not important enough. Oh well, i'm looking forward to the off season already. Holiday with the golfer, a bunch of useless exhos and no proper coach.. The lack of focus and sense of direction in her career is baffling, especially considering where she has been.
 
#4,366 ·
Caro is exactly 400 points behind Marion Bartoli in the race for last YEC alternate.

Assuming Caroline wins Moscow and collects those 470 points (Her currently 16 result must be rather low?), how far would Marion need to go in Moscow to ensure her net new points (earned in Moscow - current 16th best) takes her out of Caro's reach ..

Anyone has a clue?
 
#4,367 ·
Sorry for my ignorance on this,TF66,but is this really a relevant issue for Caroline??Because of Moscow's poor placement on the schedule,top players have regularly been forsaking it to rest for YEC,so I'll grant you that that increases Caro's odds of winning a Premier again,finally.....but she would still need TWO players to bow out of YEC to get any court time....or are you only looking at the fact that she'd at least have a presence in Istanbul if she were an alternate??
 
#4,370 · (Edited)
Numbers to be read as: Last ranking + - 16th 17th
10 BARTOLI, MARION FRA 4010 450 280 125 120
11 WOZNIACKI, CAROLINE DEN 3585 140 0 175 125

Actual ranking with Osaka stripped and 17th result added - goes only for Marian as Caroline didn't play this week last year.

10 BARTOLI, MARION FRA 4010 - 280 + 120 = 3850
11 WOZNIACKI, CAROLINE DEN 3585

Difference 3850-3585=265 so YES Caroline has a big chance as she didn't play Moscau
Marion gains points IF she earns more than 120 points in Moscau
Caroline gains points IF she earns more than 125 points in Moscau

So by winning she'll get 470-125=345 points - get it? Then there is the YEC where Caro has points to defend - 370 in fact and Bartoli 230. Caro can still earn 375 points in Sofia.
 
#4,373 ·
Ranking will take care of itself. I can't get excited about it and am not really interested in the arithmetic. But winning Moscow would be good. She should really try to win this. When she was #1 and holding 10 titles - she wasn't thinking of #1 ranking. She ws going all out to win each tournament she entered and winning those cups is what she was fighting for and enjoyed.

When she got to #1 and when she regained #1 after Kim took it for a week - both times she went on to win the tournament she was playing even though to regain it she didn't need to go all the way in those tournaments.
 
#4,376 ·
From looking at Caro's recent tweets, she really enjoys being at golf tournaments, and would probably be better off finishing at #11 and having more freedom in her scheduling.
 
#4,381 ·
She's had plenty of success with the supposedly 'passive' style compared to the current 'attacking' style. Also, to call defense passive is wrong because this style does require a great athleticism, anticipation and quick reactions. Chasing many balls down and counter the attack from the other side of the court is hardly a sign of pasivity...

Dinara did have better results at slams but not on the tour events as a whole. Besides, Safina played more of an attacking game than Caro and yet she's not won any slams. That just shows that it's not the question of style. I think any style can win any kind of tournament. It's always about how well it's executed.
 
#4,382 ·
She's had plenty of success with the supposedly 'passive' style compared to the current 'attacking' style. Also, to call defense passive is wrong because this style does require a great athleticism, anticipation and quick reactions. Chasing many balls down and counter the attack from the other side of the court is hardly a sign of pasivity...

Dinara did have better results at slams but not on the tour events as a whole. Besides, Safina played more of an attacking game than Caro and yet she's not won any slams. That just shows that it's not the question of style. I think any style can win any kind of tournament. It's always about how well it's executed.
Very few players win slams early in their careers, of the current generation.
Only Vika & Petra have won slams of all players under 25.
And Caroline was having a ton of success.
But its not just the change in style. If you read her last few tweets, she's having a lot of fun away from tennis, so maybe she needs a softer schedule for another year or 2, until she's ready to recommitt to being her best
 
#4,391 ·
She does look very happy, whenever she's on a golf court. On a tennis court, not so much. We'll see, but I think you'd have to be near blind not to notice the difference in her demeanor on the different types of courts.

Hopman Cup field has been announced and, rather unsurprising, no Caro. Too bad, last year's event was fun, I really wonder why she's so against playing doubles...she pretty much avoids it like the plague.
Especially with Frederik Nielsen now a Wimbledon champ. But from her comments, she'd want to play Brisbane this year instead of Sydney and Brisbane overlaps Hopmans Cup.

Last year was first time ever, I even bothered to watch Hopmans Cup. Shame she didn't prioritize the event this year. Olympics year or not.
 
#4,389 ·
Anyway, next January is the next major. And I think this whole hardcourt run from AO thru Miami is pretty big for her. Thats her surface and she was excellent in 2011. Even this year, AO QF & Miami SF, Dubai SF are not bad.
A fast start in 2013 would be a good sign.
 
#4,408 ·
I agree, the whole notion that she has to go away from tennis to have fun is kind of what worries me. The other players actually seem to have fun being tennis players* and she used to be like that as well.

* excluding Sharapova who's obviously unable to have fun like us non-robots.


:lol:

I had to come back from my exile for that :haha:
 
#4,400 ·
Moscow draw is out, Caro is 3 seed

[1]S.STOSUR v BYE
[Q] v A.CORNET
K.ZAKOPALOVA v A.CADANTU
[WC]M.GASPARYAN v [8]L.SAFAROVA

[4]A.IVANOVIC v BYE
[Q] v [Q]
G.VOSKOBOEVA v [Q]
S.HALEP v [6]N.PETROVA

[5]D.CIBULKOVA v E.MAKAROVA
V.LEPCHENKO v T.PIRONKOVA
U.RADWANSKA v F.SCHIAVONE
BYE v [3]C.WOZNIACKI

[7]M.KIRILENKO v E.VESNINA
Y.SHVEDOVA v A.PAVLYUCHENKOVA
B.JOVANOVSKI v S.ARVIDSSON
BYE v [2]M.BARTOLI
 
#4,402 ·
#4,404 ·
No easy matches here. A likely road to the title would be: Ula, Cibulkova (defending champion), Bartoli and Stosur.
http://www.kremlincup.ru/db/grids/19/
Yeah. Or maybe Fran - a grand slam winner not that long ago instead of Ula. I really want to see Caro do well here. It would be good if she could play well and give us a title to cheer about against players who it will be very tough for her to beat at her current level.
 
#4,403 ·
Good, I'd like to see her play Bartoli, to see where her level is at the moment.
Is there good streaming in Moscow? I can't remember the last time I followed this tournament!
 
#4,406 ·
Yeah, I think it would be a big positive to collect points here & Bulgaria. She'll have them all year in 2013.
The real test for her will be the AO, where the whole YEC field is there, and she's defending QF points.
But for now, these 2 are offering good amount of points without the YEC field in the draw. Very good opportunity.
 
#4,415 ·
That's a good question,and the answer is probably something like Caro's losing some points from last year.She won a match at YEC and that would come off the books before THIS year's YEC began,so perhaps that's what accounts for the points discrepancy...not 100% sure,though
 
#4,421 ·
Yeah, this is a chance to add a title or 2, and a clump of points she'll have all next season. Without having Vika, Serena, Maria, Petra, Aga, Kerber, in either draw. Plus no Goerges or Paszek.
Its a great opportunity right now. And if she cant do well now, then she will have #11, where she can play more Intls in 2013.
So it works out good for her either way.
 
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