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-   -   Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=449277)

justineheninfan Dec 6th, 2011 02:53 AM

Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal
 
As everyone sane knows the greatest players of their generations are Serena Williams and Roger Federer. As everyone sane also knows neither are the greatest players of their generation on clay, that being Rafael Nadal and Justine Henin. One interesting question though is which is further ahead on clay, Nadal ahead of Federer or Henin ahead of Serena. Breaking it down:

Federer has won 14% of his matches vs Nadal on clay. Serena has won 20% of her matches with Justine Henin on clay. However Justine had nearly all her matches with Serena on clay in 2002-early 2003 when Serena was at her all time peak and Justine was not even a slam champion yet, and Justine still reached that percentage. Nadal and Federer both had many matches outside the others prime on clay, and with the same result, Nadal winning nearly everyone.

Federer has 1 French Open to Nadal's 6. Serena has 1 French Open to Henin's 4. The bigger gap there is Federer vs Nadal.

Federer is considered clearly the 2nd best clay courter of his generation. Serena is arguably but not clearly the 2nd best clay courter of her generation. Both clay court eras are weak overall.

Nadal is the GOAT on clay to most, and Henin is not considered the female GOAT on clay by most, although in the top 5 by most people, and top 3 by some. Federer though is overall a greater clay courter amongst the men than Serena amongst the women.

So which has the bigger gap on clay. Henin over Serena, or Nadal over Federer

SwingVolley93 Dec 6th, 2011 02:54 AM

Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal
 
wtf who cares? :wavey:

centipede Dec 6th, 2011 02:59 AM

Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal
 
Serena's game is definitely less threatening on clay. She hasn't even reached a final since she won. And Federer has reached plenty. Serena is not much of a threat on clay since her 02-03 game. Just look at her results.

Sp!ffy Dec 6th, 2011 03:03 AM

Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal
 
Not to mention she faced a mentally weak opponent in the final of her RG title.

Dominic Dec 6th, 2011 03:06 AM

Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal
 
Henin over Serena

ExtremespeedX Dec 6th, 2011 03:10 AM

Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal
 
Serena's not a good clay courter. Period. It's ridiculous that Fed and her have the same amount of FO titles. Fed is the BEST clay courter of this generation after Nadal, making multiple RG finals, crushing everyone, including "gluten-free" Fakervic at 30 years old. He would be a multiple FO winner if Nadal wasn't there (who is arguable clay GOAT), simple as that.

What has Serena done on clay outside that fluke 2002 title? How many more finals has she reached and how many clay court specialists has she beat? Henin's clay level was vastly superior to Serena's and it's not even close. Federer proved he can crush Nadull on clay as proved by the bagel in Hamburg and 2009 Madrid thrashing. But he ALWAYS choked in big finals - even when dominating the moonballer effortlessly.

justineheninfan Dec 6th, 2011 03:30 AM

Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal
 
I voted Nadal over Federer slightly. Yes Federer is a better clay courter than Serena, but he is an overrated clay courter. I rank him only top 15 all time really. Serena is a very underrated clay courter on this forum. I laugh at how people conclude Kuznetsova or Ivanovic are somehow much better clay courters, when none of the stats suggest this (and peak level of play on clay doesnt either really).

Henin is an all time great on clay, but she doesnt have much argument as the best ever, while Nadal is clearly the best ever mens clay courter IMO.

TheDream Dec 6th, 2011 03:33 AM

Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ExtremespeedX (Post 20559609)
Serena's not a good clay courter. Period. It's ridiculous that Fed and her have the same amount of FO titles. Fed is the BEST clay courter of this generation after Nadal, making multiple RG finals, crushing everyone, including "gluten-free" Fakervic at 30 years old. He would be a multiple FO winner if Nadal wasn't there (who is arguable clay GOAT), simple as that.

What has Serena done on clay outside that fluke 2002 title? How many more finals has she reached and how many clay court specialists has she beat? Henin's clay level was vastly superior to Serena's and it's not even close. Federer proved he can crush Nadull on clay as proved by the bagel in Hamburg and 2009 Madrid thrashing. But he ALWAYS choked in big finals - even when dominating the moonballer effortlessly.

I don't think 2002 was a fluke win. Serena's level of play was so high that it didn't matter the surface. I mean, she did have a great claycourt season leading in to the event so it was no surprise she won.

rimon Dec 6th, 2011 03:37 AM

Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by justineheninfan (Post 20559577)
As everyone sane knows the greatest players of their generations are Serena Williams and Roger Federer. As everyone sane also knows neither are the greatest players of their generation on clay, that being Rafael Nadal and Justine Henin. One interesting question though is which is further ahead on clay, Nadal ahead of Federer or Henin ahead of Serena. Breaking it down:

Federer has won 14% of his matches vs Nadal on clay. Serena has won 20% of her matches with Justine Henin on clay. However Justine had nearly all her matches with Serena on clay in 2002-early 2003 when Serena was at her all time peak and Justine was not even a slam champion yet, and Justine still reached that percentage. Nadal and Federer both had many matches outside the others prime on clay, and with the same result, Nadal winning nearly everyone.

Federer has 1 French Open to Nadal's 6. Serena has 1 French Open to Henin's 4. The bigger gap there is Federer vs Nadal.

Federer is considered clearly the 2nd best clay courter of his generation. Serena is arguably but not clearly the 2nd best clay courter of her generation. Both clay court eras are weak overall.

Nadal is the GOAT on clay to most, and Henin is not considered the female GOAT on clay by most, although in the top 5 by most people, and top 3 by some. Federer though is overall a greater clay courter amongst the men than Serena amongst the women.

So which has the bigger gap on clay. Henin over Serena, or Nadal over Federer

Why didn't you include their RG final appearances, and other clay wins? :confused: There's way more to this question than amount of RGs won.

Also, how on earth could Justine be top 3 on clay? Evert, Court and Graf clearly are greater than her. :wavey:

justineheninfan Dec 6th, 2011 03:39 AM

Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rimon (Post 20559660)
Why didn't you include thier RG final appearances, and other clay wins? :confused: There's way more to this question than amount of RGs won.

Point taken. I dont feel I need to write a 12 page essay explaining every stat though. I am sure most on this forum are very familiar with all 4 players and their achievements on every surface.

Federer has better stats than Serena in this regard too, but Serena did win Rome and Charleston, the 2nd and 3rd biggest clay events today, while Federer has never won Rome or Monte Carlo, the 2nd and 3rd biggest clay events of his day, which is a big edge for Serena. Meanwhile Nadal far trumps Henin in dominance of other big clay events.

Quote:

Also, how on earth could Justine be top 3 on clay? Evert, Court and Graf clearly are greater than her. :wavey:
I agree but it is clear by my clay court poll that alot do consider her top 3 all time on clay, largely due to the natural bias towards more recent players (the same reason some even call Federer a top 6 player all time on clay which is ridiculous IMO).

ElusiveChanteuse Dec 6th, 2011 03:47 AM

Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal
 
Serena can still threaten Justine on clay but Federer is mostly expected to lose against Nadal unless Nadal is having an off day.

ElusiveChanteuse Dec 6th, 2011 03:59 AM

Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal
 
2002 BERLIN J.Henin 6-2 1-6 7-6(5)
2002 ROME S. Williams 7-6(6) 6-4
2003 CHARLESTON J.Henin 6-3 6-4
2003 FRENCH OPEN J.Henin 6-2 4-6 7-5
2007 FRENCH OPEN J.Henin 6-4 6-3


2005 Roland Garros Nadal 6-3, 4-6, 6-4, 6-3
2006 Rome Nadal 6-7(0), 7-6(5), 6-4, 2-6, 7-6(5)
2006 Roland Garros Nadal 1-6, 6-1, 6-4, 7-6(4)
2006 Monte Carlo Nadal 6-2, 6-7(2), 6-3, 7-6(5)
2007 Monte Carlo Nadal 6-4, 6-4
2007 Hamburg Federer 2-6, 6-2, 6-0
2007 Roland Garros Nadal 6-3, 4-6, 6-3, 6-4
2008 Monte Carlo Nadal 7-5, 7-5
2008 Hamburg Nadal 7-5, 6-7(3), 6-3
2008 Roland Garros Nadal 6-1, 6-3, 6-0
2009 Madrid Federer 6-4, 6-4
2010 Madrid Nadal 6-4, 7-6(5)
2011 Madrid Nadal 5-7, 6-1, 6-3
2011 Roland Garros Nadal 7-5, 7-6(3), 5-7, 6-1

rimon Dec 6th, 2011 04:03 AM

Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by justineheninfan (Post 20559663)
Point taken. I dont feel I need to write a 12 page essay explaining every stat though. I am sure most on this forum are very familiar with all 4 players and their achievements on every surface.

Federer has better stats than Serena in this regard too, but Serena did win Rome and Charleston, the 2nd and 3rd biggest clay events today, while Federer has never won Rome or Monte Carlo, the 2nd and 3rd biggest clay events of his day, which is a big edge for Serena. Meanwhile Nadal far trumps Henin in dominance of other big clay events.



I agree but it is clear by my clay court poll that alot do consider her top 3 all time on clay, largely due to the natural bias towards more recent players (the same reason some even call Federer a top 6 player all time on clay which is ridiculous IMO).

1. Well, true, but Federer's 5 RG finals put him well clear of Serena's 1. He's also won Madrid and Hamburg multiple times.

2. True about recent players being more "popular", but that doesn't alter the facts.

3. Besides, it's pointless comparing men to women. Federer at his worst would spank Henin at her best any day on any surface, including clay.

rimon Dec 6th, 2011 04:05 AM

Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Imperfect Angel (Post 20559698)
2002 BERLIN J.Henin 6-2 1-6 7-6(5)
2002 ROME S. Williams 7-6(6) 6-4
2003 CHARLESTON J.Henin 6-3 6-4
2003 FRENCH OPEN J.Henin 6-2 4-6 7-5
2007 FRENCH OPEN J.Henin 6-4 6-3


2005 Roland Garros Nadal 6-3, 4-6, 6-4, 6-3
2006 Rome Nadal 6-7(0), 7-6(5), 6-4, 2-6, 7-6(5)
2006 Roland Garros Nadal 1-6, 6-1, 6-4, 7-6(4)
2006 Monte Carlo Nadal 6-2, 6-7(2), 6-3, 7-6(5)
2007 Monte Carlo Nadal 6-4, 6-4
2007 Hamburg Federer 2-6, 6-2, 6-0
2007 Roland Garros Nadal 6-3, 4-6, 6-3, 6-4
2008 Monte Carlo Nadal 7-5, 7-5
2008 Hamburg Nadal 7-5, 6-7(3), 6-3
2008 Roland Garros Nadal 6-1, 6-3, 6-0
2009 Madrid Federer 6-4, 6-4
2010 Madrid Nadal 6-4, 7-6(5)
2011 Madrid Nadal 5-7, 6-1, 6-3
2011 Roland Garros Nadal 7-5, 7-6(3), 5-7, 6-1

IMO, Serena was lucky that Justine was sick at the RG 2002, as it might have prevented her from winning her lone RG. Just like vice versa with Justine at the AO 2004.

Setsuna. Dec 6th, 2011 04:07 AM

Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal
 
Henin over Serena.


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