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"Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

9K views 87 replies 36 participants last post by  Lilowannabe 
#1 ·
"Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

OK, so this is largely stemming from the discussion about whether Graf would be the best in today's game. An argument often used in arguments of this kind is that the more recent great player is always better than the greatest player of the previous generation, simply because a sport as a general rule is constantly evolving.

Bearing this in mind, does this mean that Kvitova or Azarenka or whoever is the best player of their generation, will be automatically greater than Serena, even if they achieve less?

This isn't intended to be a trollbait thread (not entirely anyway :oh: ). It's not JUST this board that uses this type of logic, I've seen it used in all sorts of different sports where fans are trying to argue the greatest player/team of that day are better than a previous generation even if their achievements don't match up. And imo, if people think that the best player of "Generation Azarenka" WOULDN'T be better than Serena, then imo the logic is self-defeating and it can't be used when comparing the greats of today to former generations either :shrug:

Thoughts?
 
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#2 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Stupid question.

Azarenka/Kvitova will never belong to the class of players Serena/Graf belong to, so no.
 
#3 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Stupid question.

Azarenka/Kvitova will never belong to the class of players Serena/Graf belong to, so no.
But why? Surely if every generation is better than the previous one, it goes without saying that the best of the 2010s Generation will be greater than the best of the 2000s Generation? :shrug:
 
#5 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

there are some huge improvements in rackets, strings, pharmaseutical etc which make an impression that more recent players are better.... of course it's more an illusion
 
#7 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

"Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"
Who said this?
 
#9 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Who said this?
It's a common argument made by sports fans, including some people on this board in a debate about whether Serena or Graf at their peak play a higher level of tennis. The biggest argument in favour of Serena has been that every generation is better than the last, and ipso facto, Serena at her peak plays better than Graf.

(And, like I said in the OP, this isn't entirely inspired just by this particular argument :lol: This type of attitude is even more common among ATP commentators, where people claim that the current era is so strong that even Murray would beat the greats of previous generations, simply because the current era is supposedly so much stronger than previous ones.)
 
#8 ·
It's not that the level is consistently better because technique is less of a priority to many players now. I think with tennis we have seen significant shifts in the caliber of play through the years. Each era has had a player or players come along and elevate the physicality of the game.

Navratilova would be the first example of adding more physical play due to her off court training. It stopped being about hitting balls all day and more about getting into to physical shape. She changed the game and the field had to adapt to keep up.

You could say the Williams sisters did the same when they arrived on tour and started taking it to top players. The power game matched up with their athletic ability forced the field to step up to be able to compete.

If a player is coming up the ranks now that will elevate the level of play even further it would be a great thing to see. If said player won 10-15 slams then I'm sure there will be those that say she is greater/better than Serena....but I won't hold my breath and wait for that to happen because I honestly can't see it happening.
 
#13 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"



But see (and I really am trying to keep this as polite as possible so that this doesn't get locked :lol: ), here you are completely contradicting what you said in the other thread :lol:
 
#10 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

I think the statement of the thread title is a myth, especially on WTA.
 
#12 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

I think the statement of the thread title is a myth, especially on WTA.
It's all in dsanders' head - amazing imagination and hallucinogenics :awww:
 
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#11 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

This argument is fail.

Agnieszka, Caroline, Vika are not better than Serena, Venus, Kim, Justine. And probably they will never be.
 
#14 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Change doesn't always mean improvement (certainly not in every aspect).

It could very well be the case that in certain type of skills, players might actually be deteriorating and getting worse (!) not better.
 
#16 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Second statement is true, first isn't...whatever era you're born into, you play whoever is your competition across the net. And really, the further apart 2 players are in time, the more difficult it is to compare them. It really just becomes subjective eventually, how much each person gives weight to certain factors such as competition, tour size, training. etc. will vary. That being said, I think Serena is a greater player than Margaret Court ever was :shrug: And not just because Court's a crotchety old homophobe...
 
#17 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Second statement is true, first isn't...whatever era you're born into, you play whoever is your competition across the net. And really, the further apart 2 players are in time, the more difficult it is to compare them. It really just becomes subjective eventually, how much each person gives weight to certain factors such as competition, tour size, training. etc. will vary. That being said, I think Serena is a greater player than Margaret Court ever was :shrug: And not just because Court's a crotchety old homophobe...
Agreed. :yeah:
 
#20 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Regarding the phrase:

"Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

There's a reason, @ least in most big money sports. Simply that the money increases the number of kids trained to play whichever, and the sophistication of the training.
 
#27 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

In WTA, the game is devolving. It is becoming primitive and less sophisticated.
But it still becomes more effective. You know, the fitness function of evolution is not about beauty or sophistication, it's about success.

However, you cannot compare different generations in sports, especially if they don't compete directly. Even in sports where performance is measurable (athletics etc.), too many things evolve: equipment, training methods, doping, diet ...

If you did time-machine the '88 Graf to the tour right now, she wouldn't stand a chance. And I'm pretty sure, if you time-machined S.Williams to the 2030s, she would be lucky to see a second week of a GS once in a while ...

But that is no base for a comparison.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

The average college math major knows more math than Archimedes. Does that that make them better mathematicians?
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." - Newton

Obviously Serena plays very formidable tennis now (or rather at her peak), but do you think she would have that same game if Evert, Navratilova, Graf, Seles didn't come before her? What if she were playing in the early 90s as a contemporary of Graf and Seles? Would the Williamses have reined in their aggressive games if Legend Wingis didn't make them pay for their unforced errors in their formative years?

Like Serena, Evert-Navratilova-Graf all played roughly against 3 generations of tennis (except in their dotage they had to play against actual greats-to-be, and not Generation Suck) and came out on top a lot. That's all anyone can do, really.
 
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#24 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

What's it with Dsanders and all these threads trying to bring Serena down? Ok good..Vika and Kvitova are gonna be better than Serena in his eyes..does that mean that they're gonna be greater than Sharapova ( who is from another generation) too?

Why's dsanders always discussing other players who aren't even his fav?
 
#25 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

I don't think you can say every generation is better than the last one. But once in a while, there comes a generation that lifts the bar. Monica Seles is often thought of as a transformational player in the women's game because she brought power on both wings and a strong baseline game.

The generation of Pierce, Capriati, Davenport, Williams, Clijsters, Henin etc... all took this concept to the next level. That's why the early 2000s is often seen as a sort of Golden Age in women's tennis.

Before, Seles was the only one hitting like that. Now you have to hit like her to win slams. That's where Hingis fell behind because she couldn't keep up when the bar got lifted even though she herself actually improved.

So until another generation comes along that lifts the bar like that, I'd say that generation is the standard.

And as Serena was the last woman to hold all four majors and doing so during that period, I guess that makes her by default the standard female tennis player as well. I mean, let's face it, which female player wouldn't kill to have a serve like that?
 
#26 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

It's interesting to discuss how the game changes and evolves over time. But the statement that every generation is always better than the previous one is not a very promising way to initiate such a discussion, even if it's not (entirely) intended as trollbait;)
 
#28 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

It's interesting to discuss how the game changes and evolves over time. But the statement that every generation is always better than the previous one is not a very promising way to initiate such a discussion, even if it's not (entirely) intended as trollbait;)
For the record, I personally don't see any of the new generation so far as having more potential/talent than Serena, and I would only consider any of them to be greater than her if they exceed her achievements.

My point is (even if it's not the most eloquent point I've ever made) is that, in debates comparing Serena to Graf/Navratilova/Evert, many people (not always Serena fans) are quick to say that, even though Serena has achieved less, her achievements have more weight simply because this era is (so the theory goes) stronger and better due to sport always evolving. And my point is, if you take that argument to its logical conclusion, those same people would have to say that if Azarenka/Kvitova/Stephens/Keys/Vekic/whoever got to 10 Slams or something, they would surely have to be considered better than Serena (again, ONLY going by the logic that they're applying to comparisons between Serena and former generations).

I don't think you can say every generation is better than the last one. But once in a while, there comes a generation that lifts the bar. Monica Seles is often thought of as a transformational player in the women's game because she brought power on both wings and a strong baseline game.

The generation of Pierce, Capriati, Davenport, Williams, Clijsters, Henin etc... all took this concept to the next level. That's why the early 2000s is often seen as a sort of Golden Age in women's tennis.

Before, Seles was the only one hitting like that. Now you have to hit like her to win slams. That's where Hingis fell behind because she couldn't keep up when the bar got lifted even though she herself actually improved.

So until another generation comes along that lifts the bar like that, I'd say that generation is the standard.

And as Serena was the last woman to hold all four majors and doing so during that period, I guess that makes her by default the standard female tennis player as well. I mean, let's face it, which female player wouldn't kill to have a serve like that?
But see, if you start making exceptions to the "each era is better than the last one" theory, then the whole argument for Serena being better than Graf/Navratilova/Evert collapses, because it's so easy for people to justifiably argue that the current era isn't stronger than the 1990s Era at all. Saying that the current era is stronger is entirely subjective, and any argument pointing to a general rule that the sport generally always evolves will, again, mean that you would have to accept by that argument's logical limits that Serena would be exceeded by the next generation. Either it's an ironclad rule that every generation exceeds the previous one, or it's not a rule at all, seeing as there would be all kind of subjective ways of saying a certain era is not stronger than the previous one.

(and for the record, even if the last few days I've been doing a good impression of a Steffica Greles Blastfromthepast-ian, I don't believe the current era is weaker than the 1990s. I think it's stronger in some ways and weaker in others, but overall, there isn't any quantifiable way in which this era is overall stronger than the 90s, or that it's harder to dominate the sport to the extent Graf did now than it used to be. And that's why I don't accept the argument that Serena is greater than players that have accomplished more than her, simply because of the era she's in.)
 
#31 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

There's currently a new generation of players, most of them suck except Vika who can't consistently beat Serena or Maria from a previous generation, so your point is? :lol: Ask this question again in the year 2020 :):)
 
#42 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

OK, so this is largely stemming from the discussion about whether Graf would be the best in today's game. An argument often used in arguments of this kind is that the more recent great player is always better than the greatest player of the previous generation, simply because a sport as a general rule is constantly evolving.

Bearing this in mind, does this mean that Kvitova or Princessrenka or whoever is the best player of their generation, will be automatically greater than Serena, even if they achieve less?

This isn't intended to be a trollbait thread (not entirely anyway :oh: ). It's not JUST this board that uses this type of logic, I've seen it used in all sorts of different sports where fans are trying to argue the greatest player/team of that day are better than a previous generation even if their achievements don't match up. And imo, if people think that the best player of "Generation Azarenka" WOULDN'T be better than Serena, then imo the logic is self-defeating and it can't be used when comparing the greats of today to former generations either :shrug:

Thoughts?
Fixed :oh:
 
#43 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Not always true.
Just look at Clijsters when she returned. Played no matches for several years, and snatched wigs immediately.
I'm sure Serena would still win slams if she retired and came back in 2-3 years.
 
#45 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

These threads always end up in pointless and endless speculation with unbearable theorizing about "peak" Graf vs "peak" Serena and so on. Things that are impossible to know, as they are never going to happen and belong to different eras, with different training methods, materials..etc. What I am sure, though, is that the actual WTA sucks, just take a look to the players beyond the top 6. Anything can happen. Sloane is the new, and seemingly only, star that is being talked or hyped about. Inconsistency a plenty, some laughable players at the top 10. I don´t know if peak Conchita beats peak Li, or peak Pierce beats peak Kvitova, but for sure the 90´s was a golden era in terms of consistent quality players all over the top 20. Arantxa, Seles, Graf, and later era Hingins, Pova, Serena. Those were the real new stars, all winning slams being under 20. Where has all that gone?
 
#51 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

These threads always end up in pointless and endless speculation with unbearable theorizing about "peak" Graf vs "peak" Serena and so on. Things that are impossible to know, as they are never going to happen and belong to different eras, with different training methods, materials..etc. What I am sure, though, is that the actual WTA sucks, just take a look to the players beyond the top 6. Anything can happen. Sloane is the new, and seemingly only, star that is being talked or hyped about. Inconsistency a plenty, some laughable players at the top 10. I don´t know if peak Conchita beats peak Li, or peak Pierce beats peak Kvitova, but for sure the 90´s was a golden era in terms of consistent quality players all over the top 20. Arantxa, Seles, Graf, and later era Hingins, Pova, Serena. Those were the real new stars, all winning slams being under 20. Where has all that gone?
Game has changed and winning slams under 20 is a tough job now. Doesn't mean Vika or even Petra can't become stars, if they aren't already.

I don't want to enter into the lengthy discussion, i think dsanders06 makes a tremendous good point with his opening post :yeah:. Comparison is always difficult and where you can say Williams sisters raised the bar you can just as easily say Steffi raised it (she was a far more consistent hitter than Martina could ever be). I don't think each generation is better than the previous and where i believe Serena is better than anyone else after 2000 i don't think she's better than Steffi.
 
#46 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

I think the rule is generally true, but might not currently be true, for this simple reason: In every sport, the general athletic talent pool raises because more people worldwide are able to play.

The problem is, the state of the women's game as is allows players with very little natural athletic ability to compete at the highest levels.

Look at Graf, Martina, and Serena. Some of the most amazing female athletes ever. Now look at Azarenka. It's not even in the same ballpark. Which is why this generation is relatively poor historically.
 
#48 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

I think the rule is generally true, but might not currently be true, for this simple reason: In every sport, the general athletic talent pool raises because more people worldwide are able to play.

The problem is, the state of the women's game as is allows players with very little natural athletic ability to compete at the highest levels.

Look at Graf, Martina, and Serena. Some of the most amazing female athletes ever. Now look at Azarenka. It's not even in the same ballpark. Which is why this generation is relatively poor historically.
In that case, if it's not a hard-and-fast rule that every generation is better than the previous one, then there's no basis to say the 00s Generation was better than the 90s Generation. Agreed?
 
#52 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Stop looking at stats and numbers and start looking at actual footage of the matches. Simple formulas are for simple minds. The fact is that the Williams Sisters and especially Serena have peaked the highest so far when it comes to the actual level of play. They are the current measuring stick and might be for many years to come. Current generation as represented by Azarenka, Radwanska, Kvitova and to a degree Sharapova are all inferior to the best of previous generation consisting of the WS, Henin, Clisters and Hingis. When new talent emerges that simply dismisses current young generation as easily as Serena and Kim have, we can have another conversation. But so far there have not been anyone to do so. As of 2013, the best is the 2000 generation and there can't be any discussion to challenge this fact.
 
#55 ·
Re: "Every generation is better than the previous one. The game is always evolving"

Thank you Vika :hearts:

And the Kvitova comparison(assuming those stats are correct), doesn't hold. Even if she's hitting her groundstrokes a couple miles per hour faster than Serena, she hasn't revolutionized the game. At the end of the day she's still playing the "big babe" style of tennis introduced by the Williams Sisters and Davenport towards the end of the 90s/early 2000s, of starting the point off with a dominating first serve, teeing off on second serves, hitting huge off of both wings even from defensive positions, and ultimately ending the point in only a few strokes. There's nothing revolutionary about playing an even lower percentage version of that game, and paling in comparison in terms of several other factors(serve compared to Serena, and movement compared to both WS). She's basically doing what Mary did a decade ago(as an aside, I highly doubt she's hitting top speeds higher than Mary or even Serena :shrug: I wanna see the receipts :lol:)
 
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