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  Topic Review (Newest First)
Jun 30th, 2013 09:18 PM
pla Cajka, don't get upset. I totally understand you. I also didn't report the person who raped me. In 1996 justice, police, everything was in the hands of local mafia. Nowadays it's much better but not only all evydence is gone but also the guy is elected as city counselor, or whatever the English word for the elected in the city "parliament" is. Things are better but are not yet as good as to be able to get a politician with a strong backup
Jun 30th, 2013 02:07 PM
*JR*
Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by shap_half View Post
How are these the same things? The first example is a cop suggesting that you shouldn't visit a particularly dodge-y neighborhood at night with no specific destination.

Serena commented on how a girl should have behaved after the girl was raped.

And let's face it, EVERYONE has reservations about walking around a notoriously "unsafe" neighborhood at night. Do you prepare for a party thinking that if you overdo it with the drinks that you're going to get raped? Even if you're already at the party, and you've crossed your threshold for alcohol, the thought of getting raped won't enter your head.
If you're smart, indeed you do. (Especially if you know there'll be football jocks there, with a sense of entitlement to whatever female they want). All Serena did was ditch "PC-ness" and tell the truth, even if she brought in extraneous words like virgin.
Jun 30th, 2013 01:56 PM
shap_half
Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by *JR* View Post
A metaphor from the (high crime rate) NYC of the 80s, when it came out that a transit cop had advised a young white couple getting off a train in East Harlem @ night (without a specific destination, IIRC) that it wasn't a good idea for them to do so. There was a media brouhaha, with the inevitable PC teeth gnashing from the NY Times (whose editor lived in upscale Riverdale and publisher in ritzy Scarsdale).

Had they done so anyhow (fully their legal right) and been mugged or worse, would the perp(s) have been wrong? Absolutely, but the well-meaning cop (who I believe got only a reprimand) might have prevented a serious crime. Could they have been attacked (with the young woman maybe raped) in a "white neighborhood", of course. And were there far too many black & Hispanic crime victims in predominantly minority areas, also yes.

But the (unfairly harassed by liberal columnists, IMO) cop wasn't being a social scientist, he knew the area he was in probably better than the young couple in question, and made a recommendation that decreased their odds of becoming victims of a potentially quite serious crime. I think the metaphor to one not increasing her chances of being a rape victim is obvious. And while she was bullied into apologizing, Serena was right!
How are these the same things? The first example is a cop suggesting that you shouldn't visit a particularly dodge-y neighborhood at night with no specific destination.

Serena commented on how a girl should have behaved after the girl was raped.

And let's face it, EVERYONE has reservations about walking around a notoriously "unsafe" neighborhood at night. Do you prepare for a party thinking that if you overdo it with the drinks that you're going to get raped? Even if you're already at the party, and you've crossed your threshold for alcohol, the thought of getting raped won't enter your head.
Jun 30th, 2013 01:32 PM
shap_half
Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

Perhaps many of you have seen this, but if not, I think this is a worthy cause to get behind: http://act.watchdog.net/petitions/32...ef=Dewdav9ateg
Jun 29th, 2013 02:41 AM
fufuqifuqishahah
Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by stromatolite View Post
Think it's best to keep my reply brief, because otherwise I'm afraid it might get hard to keep track of things:
[*]I never said that Serena's comments were sexist, nor as far as I can tell did Cajka. I believe Serena was basically thinking aloud about a topic she hadn't thought much about before. Knowing about cases like Cajka's might have helped her avoid that.
Sexism point right here.

Quote:
I truly believe that Serena is a good person, but her point of view here is pretty sexist, although she's a woman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stromatolite View Post
[*]I could be wrong, but I don't think we (you, I or Cajka) are in very serious disagreement about anything here, we just see some details differently
Likely Thank you for your reply.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajka View Post
You completely misunderstood my post. Why did I say that Serena's comment was sexist? Not because I thought that ppl shouldn't be careful and avoid dangerous situations. It's because she focused on the victim, not on those guys. I said that kids shouldn't drink, I said that adults (BOTH MEN AND WOMEN) should drink moderately and act responsible. How did you miss that part?

What's my problem here? Well, people focus on the wrong things that this girl did. Getting completely drunk is wrong, irresponsible and stupid, but how about raping someone? What did Serena say? I can't be bothered to search for the quote, but it was like: Sure they did something wrong, but is it fair what they got? What did she expect? She was lucky.

I live in a sexist society and I can tell you that this is a typical sexist point of view. A woman that gets drunk is a lowlife, slut, she's offering herself to men. If she gets raped, well... it sucks, but she asked for it. If a girl behaves that way, you can't blame someone who took an advantage. How about teaching those guys some responsibility?

For example, if you get drunk and lose your wallet and I find it, what should I do? If I keep it, it's a robbery, although it's not my fault that you lost it. Being robbed sucks, now try to imagine how it feels to be raped. And then some people feel entitled to tell you that you should have done this or that, they blame your parents and about those who raped you... Well, sure what they did was wrong.... ? Come on now. Well, what about them and their parents?



I decided to go outside and argue with that idiot? Did you read my post at all? This is highly insulting. If you weren't bothered to read my post, then don't comment on it. It's nice that you want to defend your favorite tennis player, but enough is enough. He started arguing with me, I didn't decide anything. I tried to explain that he misunderstood the whole thing, I tried to ignore him, but he didn't give up. I tried my best to stay civil, just like I'm trying to stay civil now after reading the insensitive and rude sentence you wrote.



I said that a sane person would report him, but I was too scared. I also said that the justice system in Serbia is awful, but you decided to make your own conclusions. I totally promote violence, I got what I deserved. Too bad he didn't rape me as well, right? I said I have no regrets, but only because that's the only punishment he could have received here. For example, my neighbor killed his lover and he stayed in prison for 4 years. If I lived in normal country, I would have probably reported him immediately. What's the point of putting my father in danger? But I didn't trust our police. It's so easy to be a smartass judgemental prick when you live in a normal country.

And what is the most important, I never asked my father to beat him up, it wasn't my idea, I'd never suggest it. but I can't say I feel sorry for him. Even if I went to police first, it wouldn't stop my father. I couldn't hide it. My father barely recognized me in the morning, my face was all in bruises. His reaction wasn't right, but I completely understand him.
Serena's comments were comments selected by a reporter. She could have said other things as well. I also mentioned in my post before the one you are responding to you that Serena's attention was on the victim, not the rapist....

I also thoroughly read your post, over and over again to ensure I was responding fairly and accurately. This is a serious and highly controversial topic. I spent a lot of time on my own posts to make sure they at least somewhat accurately reflected my point of view / interpretation of your words.

I apologize if you felt I was being smartass, or judgmental, but this was not my intention. I also did not suggest that you should go to the police, especially after reading what you had written. I want to reiterate that in no way were you wrong or to blame in your story, based on what you have told me. Yet based off your story alone, I felt you did not have to tell him to go to hell because for your own safety, that likely would not have been beneficial. Additionally, there were likely better options out there for you to promote your own safety in that situation, though obviously it depends on more detail about you and the situation you were in. I could focus on the guy who beat you up instead, but he is not the one talking in this thread, and so I have zero information on his perspective.

I've also been sexually molested. But there was no need for me to point that out. Maybe it's because I don't believe in punishment as much as I believe in rehabilitation? Not sure.

To be honest though, I don't feel comfortable talking to you at the moment. You have resorted to name-calling which I feel extremely uncomfortable with and saying things such as "I got what I deserved". Additionally, I don't feel I was being abusive, and you haven't elucidated anything to suggest that I was. You also have not elucidated anything to suggest that I lack self-awareness or responsibility. I sincerely apologize though if I got your story incorrect, but there is nothing to suggest that I didn't based off your posts alone.

Additionally, I am not defending my favorite tennis player. Even if my favorite tennis player were Serena Williams, I feel it is pretty apparent in my posts in this thread that I feel Serena's comments were insensitive, but it doesn't seem to me like they were sexist. Create a scenario in your head and they could be, but based off her comments alone, there is no sexism. As someone posted out on another website and as I posted earlier, receiving blame for a (criminal) situation and trying to promote one's own safety are not mutually exclusive.

Ultimately, I empathize with your bruising and I hope you are well and have recovered. This is the internet and if I am coming across as mean, I am genuinely sorry, and hope you do not feel misrepresented in any way.
Jun 29th, 2013 12:42 AM
Cajka
Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by stromatolite View Post
[*]I sympathise with you for what you have been through. I would however think that a person who has suffered abuse to the extent that they become abusive themselves, would be a bit more sympathetic of the fact that Cajka and her family were not perfect saints in how they responded to her drama.
I can say I'm lucky that I'm the kind of person who always moves on no matter what. I could write about all my sad life stories and there are many. I shared this one because I felt it was kinda related to this topic. I learned to move on, to stay strong. I was abused, but it didn't make me abusive. That's self-аwareness and responsibility. Unfortunately, the poster you quoted didn't have in himself/herself, that's why he/she wrote the things he/she did. He/she indeed seems to became abusive, it looks that way from his/her post.

Before someone accuses me of being passive-aggressive with this post, which is a popular term on this board. Make no mistake, I'm outright aggressive here. Without foul language and retarded gifs tho.
Jun 29th, 2013 12:16 AM
Cajka
Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by fufuqifuqishahah View Post
Unfortunately, I highly disagree. While I'm glad Cajka's story of brutality was told, and I agree with her on many points, it seems to dodge certain things by ignoring some crucial facts.

It may be easy to infer Serena's comments were sexist, but it seems to be a poor inference at best. From her comments, there is no CLEAR insinuation that because the victim is female she shouldn't place herself in that situation. Serena refers to the victim as a girl, but doesn't go further than that.

Additionally, the solution provided by Cajka is similar to the counterargument that people try to provide to support their idea of not taking enough precaution; the solution should be and is more nuanced than DO NOT DO ANYTHING RISKY. Not many people believe in that solution to begin with. Be more careful, have fun and explore options, respect individuals, trust people the right amount, and leave situations if you feel uncomfortable.
You completely misunderstood my post. Why did I say that Serena's comment was sexist? Not because I thought that ppl shouldn't be careful and avoid dangerous situations. It's because she focused on the victim, not on those guys. I said that kids shouldn't drink, I said that adults (BOTH MEN AND WOMEN) should drink moderately and act responsible. How did you miss that part?

What's my problem here? Well, people focus on the wrong things that this girl did. Getting completely drunk is wrong, irresponsible and stupid, but how about raping someone? What did Serena say? I can't be bothered to search for the quote, but it was like: Sure they did something wrong, but is it fair what they got? What did she expect? She was lucky.

I live in a sexist society and I can tell you that this is a typical sexist point of view. A woman that gets drunk is a lowlife, slut, she's offering herself to men. If she gets raped, well... it sucks, but she asked for it. If a girl behaves that way, you can't blame someone who took an advantage. How about teaching those guys some responsibility?

For example, if you get drunk and lose your wallet and I find it, what should I do? If I keep it, it's a robbery, although it's not my fault that you lost it. Being robbed sucks, now try to imagine how it feels to be raped. And then some people feel entitled to tell you that you should have done this or that, they blame your parents and about those who raped you... Well, sure what they did was wrong.... ? Come on now. Well, what about them and their parents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fufuqifuqishahah View Post
Lastly, while Cajka made the right decision to go outside, Cajka decides to go outside and argue with a drunk individual.
I decided to go outside and argue with that idiot? Did you read my post at all? This is highly insulting. If you weren't bothered to read my post, then don't comment on it. It's nice that you want to defend your favorite tennis player, but enough is enough. He started arguing with me, I didn't decide anything. I tried to explain that he misunderstood the whole thing, I tried to ignore him, but he didn't give up. I tried my best to stay civil, just like I'm trying to stay civil now after reading the insensitive and rude sentence you wrote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fufuqifuqishahah View Post
Furthermore, she promotes violence by in some degree by saying she has no regrets about him getting re-beat up by her father, brother, and boyfriend. Please tell me in any estimation how this is civil or how this teaches anyone that violence is not a solution?
I said that a sane person would report him, but I was too scared. I also said that the justice system in Serbia is awful, but you decided to make your own conclusions. I totally promote violence, I got what I deserved. Too bad he didn't rape me as well, right? I said I have no regrets, but only because that's the only punishment he could have received here. For example, my neighbor killed his lover and he stayed in prison for 4 years. If I lived in normal country, I would have probably reported him immediately. What's the point of putting my father in danger? But I didn't trust our police. It's so easy to be a smartass judgemental prick when you live in a normal country.

And what is the most important, I never asked my father to beat him up, it wasn't my idea, I'd never suggest it. but I can't say I feel sorry for him. Even if I went to police first, it wouldn't stop my father. I couldn't hide it. My father barely recognized me in the morning, my face was all in bruises. His reaction wasn't right, but I completely understand him.
Jun 28th, 2013 06:00 PM
stromatolite
Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by fufuqifuqishahah View Post
Unfortunately, I highly disagree. While I'm glad Cajka's story of brutality was told, and I agree with her on many points, it seems to dodge certain things by ignoring some crucial facts.

It may be easy to infer Serena's comments were sexist, but it seems to be a poor inference at best. From her comments, there is no CLEAR insinuation that because the victim is female she shouldn't place herself in that situation. Serena refers to the victim as a girl, but doesn't go further than that.

Additionally, the solution provided by Cajka is similar to the counterargument that people try to provide to support their idea of not taking enough precaution; the solution should be and is more nuanced than DO NOT DO ANYTHING RISKY. Not many people believe in that solution to begin with. Be more careful, have fun and explore options, respect individuals, trust people the right amount, and leave situations if you feel uncomfortable.

Lastly, while Cajka made the right decision to go outside, Cajka decides to go outside and argue with a drunk individual. This is definitely not "asking" for a beating, but arguing with a drunk person, especially someone who has been pestering you all night would be unlikely to aid one's safety. Furthermore, she promotes violence by in some degree by saying she has no regrets about him getting re-beat up by her father, brother, and boyfriend. Please tell me in any estimation how this is civil or how this teaches anyone that violence is not a solution?



I have been a victim of violence and abuse multiple times in my life. I have also been abusive. As you grow up you have to be able to discern dangerous situations and also take some degree of self-responsibility to protect yourself while learning how to be respectful of others, especially if you are going to find yourself wanting to place blame. As Cajka said though, we cannot control everything in our lives. It is also impossible for us to safely experience all that we can in order to learn how to prevent dangerous situations before we actually find ourselves already in one. Cajka should have been able to go outside and freely argue with another individual with no fear of receiving physical violence just like I should be able to go leave my door unlocked at night without fear of theft, etc., but at the same time, we should understand that placing yourself in a situation with another living, biological, fragile human being who is acting irrational may end up dangerously. I could be the least risky person in the world and find myself gruesomely beat up by an individual. Yet - through our experiences - we can make attempts to learn nuance, to find the balance and intricacies of fun/freedom v. safety/precaution, and exercise better judgment.

Nevertheless, Cajka's post does very well suggest the imbalance that exists among men and women in the world. Some men feel like they can be highly aggressive and have the degree of physical power to back that up. But if one really cares about such imbalance, and if one really seeks to minimize/eliminate violence, one needs to realize that men have a significantly higher degree of criminality than women, try to understand why this is the case, and think of possible solutions to reduce criminality and inappropriate aggression as a whole.
Think it's best to keep my reply brief, because otherwise I'm afraid it might get hard to keep track of things:
  • I never said that Serena's comments were sexist, nor as far as I can tell did Cajka. I believe Serena was basically thinking aloud about a topic she hadn't thought much about before. Knowing about cases like Cajka's might have helped her avoid that.
  • I don't believe that Cajka "decided" to do anything that led to the violence that was done to her. The way I read it, the situation was thrust upon her unexpectedly, and she quite understandably got angry. She was completely justified in being angry, the guy was way out of line.
  • I'm inclined to agree with you that in a perfect world there would have been no violence in retaliation for what was done, other than what was necessary to save Cajka from her attacker. But I don't feel myself to be such a saint as to judge people too harshly for not turning the other cheek, especially in a country where you can't expect the normal protection from the justice system many of us take for granted.
  • I sympathise with you for what you have been through. I would however think that a person who has suffered abuse to the extent that they become abusive themselves, would be a bit more sympathetic of the fact that Cajka and her family were not perfect saints in how they responded to her drama.
  • I could be wrong, but I don't think we (you, I or Cajka) are in very serious disagreement about anything here, we just see some details differently
Jun 28th, 2013 04:42 PM
fufuqifuqishahah
Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by stromatolite View Post
By some distance the best post of the thread. Not because it gives any definitive answers, it doesn't really, there are no easy answers to issues like this. But because it illustrates the imbalance in the position of men and women in social life, even in supposedly "safe" and "civilized" parts of the world.

I agree with you that Serena is a good person at heart, and never intended to say anything hurtful to the victim or supportive of the attackers. But if she had been acquainted with your story and others like it, she probably would not have said what she said.

So thank you Cajka for having the courage to tell us about this painful incident in your life, and for not becoming a bitter person as a result of it.
Unfortunately, I highly disagree. While I'm glad Cajka's story of brutality was told, and I agree with her on many points, it seems to dodge certain things by ignoring some crucial facts.

It may be easy to infer Serena's comments were sexist, but it seems to be a poor inference at best. From her comments, there is no CLEAR insinuation that because the victim is female she shouldn't place herself in that situation. Serena refers to the victim as a girl, but doesn't go further than that.

Additionally, the solution provided by Cajka
Quote:
To teach your daughter not to drink, not to go out, not to talk to anyone.
is similar to the counterargument that people try to provide to support their idea of not taking enough precaution; the solution should be and is more nuanced than DO NOT DO ANYTHING RISKY. Not many people believe in that solution to begin with. Be more careful, have fun and explore options, respect individuals, trust people the right amount, and leave situations if you feel uncomfortable.

Lastly, while Cajka made the right decision to go outside, Cajka decides to go outside and argue with a drunk individual. This is definitely not "asking" for a beating, but arguing with a drunk person, especially someone who has been pestering you all night would be unlikely to aid one's safety. Furthermore, she promotes violence by in some degree by saying she has no regrets about him getting re-beat up by her father, brother, and boyfriend. Please tell me in any estimation how this is civil or how this teaches anyone that violence is not a solution?

Quote:
Luckily, my friend came in that moment and he literally saved me. He put me in the car and beat the crap out of that guy.In the morning I didn't go to police, I went to tell my father what happened, so my father went to his house and beat him up. After that the guy I was dating back then beat him up as well. Of course, a sane person would say that I should have gone straight to police, but I was really scared and the justice system in Serbia is a completely mess, that guy would probably get away, unpunished. So I have no regrets about that.
I have been a victim of violence and abuse multiple times in my life. I have also been abusive. As you grow up you have to be able to discern dangerous situations and also take some degree of self-responsibility to protect yourself while learning how to be respectful of others, especially if you are going to find yourself wanting to place blame. As Cajka said though, we cannot control everything in our lives. It is also impossible for us to safely experience all that we can in order to learn how to prevent dangerous situations before we actually find ourselves already in one. Cajka should have been able to go outside and freely argue with another individual with no fear of receiving physical violence just like I should be able to go leave my door unlocked at night without fear of theft, etc., but at the same time, we should understand that placing yourself in a situation with another living, biological, fragile human being who is acting irrational may end up dangerously. I could be the least risky person in the world and find myself gruesomely beat up by an individual. Yet - through our experiences - we can make attempts to learn nuance, to find the balance and intricacies of fun/freedom v. safety/precaution, and exercise better judgment.

Nevertheless, Cajka's post does very well suggest the imbalance that exists among men and women in the world. Some men feel like they can be highly aggressive and have the degree of physical power to back that up. But if one really cares about such imbalance, and if one really seeks to minimize/eliminate violence, one needs to realize that men have a significantly higher degree of criminality than women, try to understand why this is the case, and think of possible solutions to reduce criminality and inappropriate aggression as a whole.
Jun 28th, 2013 08:26 AM
stromatolite
Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajka View Post
I could share my story. I wasn't raped, but I was a victim of violence.

I was almost 18 when it happened. I was at a party with a friend. The guy came to me and invited me to go somewhere and have a drink with him. I said: "Thanks, but no. I'm not interested." The party got really boring, but the friend who came with me was still having fun, so I asked for his car keys, I wanted to sit in his car, listen to music until he decides to go home. There was nothing that could suggest it would be dangerous for me, I lived in a small, peaceful and safe town. When I went outside, my "admirer" was waiting for me. He started insulting me, yelling and cursing. He said that I was flirting with him all night long and that I was trying to humiliate him all the time. I tried to be civil, I told him that he must have confused me with someone, that I have a boyfriend, that he misunderstood something. He didn't give up, he told me that I was a little stupid and arrogant slut. I lost my patience and told him to go to hell. Then he punched me in the face and pushed me. There was a lot of ice, I was on high hills and I fell. Then he started kicking me in the head...

Luckily, my friend came in that moment and he literally saved me. He put me in the car and beat the crap out of that guy. In the morning I didn't go to police, I went to tell my father what happened, so my father went to his house and beat him up. After that the guy I was dating back then beat him up as well. Of course, a sane person would say that I should have gone straight to police, but I was really scared and the justice system in Serbia is a completely mess, that guy would probably get away, unpunished. So I have no regrets about that.

Was I drunk? No, I didn't drink at all that night, but that guy was drunk. Did I say or do something that would put me in danger? Not really. I went outside alone, but, as I said, it's a small, peaceful town, I've always felt very safe there. Did I tell something that would infuriate him. Well, I told him to go to hell after 15 minutes of arguing and trying to explain myself. When my father came to beat him up, what did that guy say? He said I asked for it.

So, what's the solution? To teach your daughter not to drink, not to go out, not to talk to anyone. Well, from my experience, it makes more sense to teach your son to respect women, to take "no" as an answer, to teach them that violence is never a solution. I truly believe that Serena is a good person, but her point of view here is pretty sexist, although she's a woman. If we want the society to change, we can't expect only men to change, women need to change as well. I can't spend my life in fear, afraid to go out, afraid to have a drink, to talk to someone, just because I'm a woman and women have to be extra careful always.

That being said, binge-drinking is dangerous, for men and women, for adults and teens. So many bad things can happen, you're not in control. You may not get robbed, murdered, raped, you can simply get hit by a car. Kids should never drink, while adults should drink moderately and act responsible in every situation. It's fine to have some drinks with friends, to relax, but to pass out or whatever. That's stupid, it's not called "having fun", that's just stupid.
By some distance the best post of the thread. Not because it gives any definitive answers, it doesn't really, there are no easy answers to issues like this. But because it illustrates the imbalance in the position of men and women in social life, even in supposedly "safe" and "civilized" parts of the world.

I agree with you that Serena is a good person at heart, and never intended to say anything hurtful to the victim or supportive of the attackers. But if she had been acquainted with your story and others like it, she probably would not have said what she said.

So thank you Cajka for having the courage to tell us about this painful incident in your life, and for not becoming a bitter person as a result of it.
Jun 28th, 2013 08:14 AM
debby
Quote:
Originally Posted by bandabou View Post
The essence of what Serena said: that too much drinking can leave you exposed to some unwanted and sometimes even dangerous situations, is true and can't be disputed. I mean: drinking so much that you black out/ lose conciousness? Really? Is that the parties you enjoy, Lesborah?
No. And I know it is stupid to drink too much.
But I am a small and thin girl. So I can't drink too much, I know my own limits. Sometimes I pass out after what three glasses of wine (like yesterday, I had three glasses during the dinner with my parents). Is it dangerous to drink three glasses? Not at all, if you don't drive/go out (doubt most of ppl are drunk with three glasses to the extent to be unable to cross a road, but then idk).

I don't know why so many believe you have to drink A LOT to pass out. Nah there are a few factors : your weight, your heigth, your sex, your resistance to alcohol, if you are tired or sick, etc etc.

Binge drinking is incredibly stupid. I already did that and I regret it

Cajka (totally agree with your post) and Pla.

[/color]
Jun 28th, 2013 01:27 AM
fufuqifuqishahah
Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

There is something incredibly wrong with everyone who espouses the following view: If you ask questions as to why the victim was in a particular situation or question the level of responsibility of the victim, you are already seen as shifting the blame away from the perpetrator and onto the victim. You need education.

In her original view, Serena reiterates that she is in no way blaming the victim. Yet people seem so excited to claim that she did.

Even though Serena's comments were insensitive and misinformed, you cannot fault someone for asking questions and hoping that all people are able to be free in their decisions while also being safe in their decisions. She of course goes a little further and suggests that her parents were being irresponsible, but once again, there is no instance of blame on either the girl or the parents. That was what I gleaned from her perspective. Practice some responsibility and you will be less likely to be in such a situation in the future. Though it may be a stretch, she may in fact be providing band-aid solutions through suggesting (insensitive) precaution.

Is it really wrong to ask why she was at a party with a lot of alcohol? Is Serena actually placing any sort of blame on the victim with such a question/statement? It seems she may be placing responsibility on the victim for placing herself in an untenable situation, but responsibility (for one's own safety) is much different from blame (for a crime). Based off the comments alone, Serena focus attention completely away from the rapists and onto the victim, but attention - like responsibility - is not the same as blame.

Similarly, not everyone has the same level of guard as they go about their lives. This may be influenced by a variety of factors:

As an article on thedailybeast.com mentions:

Quote:
As African-Americans, and even more so as African-American women, we are routinely forced to deal with the harsh reality that when bad things happen to black people, no one cares. Equally important: when bad things happen to black people, no one is brought to justice as a result. Need proof? Just Google the names Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman. It took six weeks and massive protests around the country for the man who killed an unarmed black teenager to even get arrested. When was the last time the case of a missing or murdered black woman was heavily featured on the news and spoken about at length in the media? Black women do go missing, and we do get murdered every day. We also get raped. And so what is deeply instilled in many of us by our parents is the rule that you must have your wits about you at all times or face the real risk ending up dead.

You’re taught that you must take responsibility for your own wellbeing with the clear understanding that absolutely no one else is going to do it for you. This has always been the unspoken rule of the inner city and hardcore streets—places like Compton, California, where Venus and Serena were born.
There, they saw as very young children how easy it was to lose your life at a moment’s notice by simply wearing the wrong color, using the wrong hand sign, or by just being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-comments.html

Nevertheless, this is conjecture, but it does provide a potential, alternative way of looking at someone else's (insensitive) perspective.

Regardless of anyone's viewpoint though or what actually happened, for every individual's future well-being and safety, we need to ask ourselves how did this situation arise to begin with? Howe can we prevent rapes to begin with? How can we prevent crimes or even the thoughts of acting on crimes to begin with? But questions such as these questions are very difficult to answer as we live our own lives, often finding ourselves confronted with environments with a high likelihood of criminality or sketchy behavior; as a result, our attention generally may shift to what we can do to protect ourselves and exercise precaution, which is a good and sometimes necessary way to steer our attention, since ultimately, while one is confronted with such a situation, the most we can control (to some extent) is where we physically place ourselves. If you are a boy or girl, man or woman, and you are with a lot of people you do not entirely trust, you need to evaluate the risk of you being in that situation more often than not, and should at least retain the ability to put your guard up and leave the situation if need be.

We should be able to be safe no matter where we go. We should be able to trust every other human being that they will give us both appropriate space and respect. Yet as humans, living biological creatures, we have to understand that there is risk involved in everything that we do. We also need to understand that each one of us is easily influenced by everything around us, and by everything that goes inside of us. And while we are not to blame if something bad happens to us, we should take necessary precautions (as with anything) to be more on the safe side if we can be. This is why we wear condoms, why we wear helmets, why we don't tell children to go out at night, why we watch our children at the playground, why we press food producers for greater transparency, why we apply for unemployment when we are jobless, why we wear safety equipment and/or train for thousands of hours if we decide to climb a mountain, this is why people feel hesitation about living in a violent neighborhood, this is why we don't get plastered with alcohol unless we are with the right company, this is why we prosecute rapists, this is why we teach the possibility of rape. To be safer, happier, and healthier. Until the world becomes a utopia for human beings, it is foolish to try to shame someone who asks questions such as Serena as if she was blaming the victim; shame her for the insensitivity of her comments and the fact that she suggests irresponsibility on the parts of the victims' parents when she really had no idea = fine and maybe necessary, but never ever jump to conclusions about or exaggerate someone's perspective, especially if you are out to correct or shame them. In no way is Serena saying "NEVER GO OUT, NEVER DRINK ALCOHOL, BE SUPER SCARED OF MEN", because clearly Serena does go out, Serena drinks, and Serena enjoys her mens. Through exaggeration and assumption, you may further or start to create an overcorrection culture which can be an inaccurate reflection of reality, which in turn, can create new problems.

Ultimately though, all of us are spectators in something from which we are so far removed. We actually do not know the fine details of all that had happened. All we know is that an innocent young female had been recklessly taken advantage of when she shouldn't have been. But, as others' in this thread have alluded to, we ask ourselves how this could have happened. We try to empathize with everyone involved even when we don't know the details and when we would like to prevent these situations in the future; with the rapists, most of us have little to empathize with because most of us do not understand how we could take advantage of someone like that, but with the girl, some of us know what it is like to be more careful, leave a situation once it starts to feel unsafe/sketchy, and/or frame our lives to find certain situations so unattractive that we don't find ourselves in them in the first place. This is also why attorneys were/are? still looking into the causes of how such a dangerous environment arose, after the convictions occurred. Until we can figure out how to prevent such occurrences from arising at all, we try to take necessary precautions, and I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to highlight those precautions. It is in no way shifting blame onto the victim. It is shifting responsibility not of the crime but of one's body, but that is an entirely different argument altogether.

To be fair, my own view on this is evolving as I go. (I also apologize for the wild grammar of this post). Perhaps the issue here may partially be a question of semantics and the understanding of our own views. Perhaps what people really do get upset about is where people place their attention. Even though we should take precautions, we truly should be able to feel safe when we are with other people. And regardless of the reality, how we should feel maybe should be our focus.
Jun 27th, 2013 11:38 PM
Cajka
Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

I could share my story. I wasn't raped, but I was a victim of violence.

I was almost 18 when it happened. I was at a party with a friend. The guy came to me and invited me to go somewhere and have a drink with him. I said: "Thanks, but no. I'm not interested." The party got really boring, but the friend who came with me was still having fun, so I asked for his car keys, I wanted to sit in his car, listen to music until he decides to go home. There was nothing that could suggest it would be dangerous for me, I lived in a small, peaceful and safe town. When I went outside, my "admirer" was waiting for me. He started insulting me, yelling and cursing. He said that I was flirting with him all night long and that I was trying to humiliate him all the time. I tried to be civil, I told him that he must have confused me with someone, that I have a boyfriend, that he misunderstood something. He didn't give up, he told me that I was a little stupid and arrogant slut. I lost my patience and told him to go to hell. Then he punched me in the face and pushed me. There was a lot of ice, I was on high hills and I fell. Then he started kicking me in the head...

Luckily, my friend came in that moment and he literally saved me. He put me in the car and beat the crap out of that guy. In the morning I didn't go to police, I went to tell my father what happened, so my father went to his house and beat him up. After that the guy I was dating back then beat him up as well. Of course, a sane person would say that I should have gone straight to police, but I was really scared and the justice system in Serbia is a completely mess, that guy would probably get away, unpunished. So I have no regrets about that.

Was I drunk? No, I didn't drink at all that night, but that guy was drunk. Did I say or do something that would put me in danger? Not really. I went outside alone, but, as I said, it's a small, peaceful town, I've always felt very safe there. Did I tell something that would infuriate him. Well, I told him to go to hell after 15 minutes of arguing and trying to explain myself. When my father came to beat him up, what did that guy say? He said I asked for it.

So, what's the solution? To teach your daughter not to drink, not to go out, not to talk to anyone. Well, from my experience, it makes more sense to teach your son to respect women, to take "no" as an answer, to teach them that violence is never a solution. I truly believe that Serena is a good person, but her point of view here is pretty sexist, although she's a woman. If we want the society to change, we can't expect only men to change, women need to change as well. I can't spend my life in fear, afraid to go out, afraid to have a drink, to talk to someone, just because I'm a woman and women have to be extra careful always.

That being said, binge-drinking is dangerous, for men and women, for adults and teens. So many bad things can happen, you're not in control. You may not get robbed, murdered, raped, you can simply get hit by a car. Kids should never drink, while adults should drink moderately and act responsible in every situation. It's fine to have some drinks with friends, to relax, but to pass out or whatever. That's stupid, it's not called "having fun", that's just stupid.
Jun 27th, 2013 10:34 PM
Cajka
Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by le bon vivant View Post
Its not for the discussion, its for my own understanding. Its fallacious from an anthropological perspective to use the term culture in this fashion.

There is no such thing as "rape culture," or "murder culture." Misogyny and patriarchy exist, yeah, but I don't understand this rape culture stuff. I was hoping for some clarity, even the wikipedia page on rape culture is a mess.
Rape is not a synonym for misogyny. All rapist are misogynists, but not misogynists are also rapist. The OP obviously didn't want us to talk about misogyny in general and he/she couldn't find a better term than "rape culture". Whoever comes up with a better term should tell us, I also have a problem with this term. "Misogyny" can't be a substitute, it has a much broader meaning.
Jun 27th, 2013 01:04 AM
wta_zuperfann
Re: Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by pla View Post
Frankly, as a rape victim, to me some of the opinions: " The victim is responsible doing this and this" are disappointing.

I won't even comment in detail how hard it is to battle this in everyday life when you already scream inside you of the horror and the humiliation, and all the questions on you being responsible for your own despair on top of your own "What could I have done differently?". It's difficult.

Yes, alcohol is THE number one rape drug but the point still stands. All rape victims can be told that one or the other things they did made their rape easier.

I don't know. I think people, famous or not should think twice before they comment such stories because life is difficult and complicated enough.


Not sure that is entirely true. The one thing about rape that people side step (perhaps understandably considering the horror of its nature) is the matter of male rape victimization. A few years ago someone in this forum used as avatar a scene in which a white man was to be raped by a black man in prison. In this society male rape victimization does not involve alcohol, is perhaps the most brutal crime that occurs on a daily basis, yet it remains the subject of humor in tv, movies, and ironically enough, in this very forum. Do a Google on prison rape and male victimization and you will be utterly shocked by the horror stories that occur.

Just as an example a couple of years ago I read a blogger's report about prison rape in NY. He indicated that among the horrors was the fact that male prison guards give pornography to the prisoners in order to stimulate further attacks. The female guards, according to that report, went a step further by furnishing the attackers with Viagra. Don't know if this is true today but having known as many police officers as I did during my years in NYC none of this would surprise me. In any case, alcohol was not a factor in these terrible attacks and none of the perpetrators or their supporters were or are punished.
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