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  Topic Review (Newest First)
Mar 25th, 2013 06:21 PM
Edward.
Re: New Pope Francis!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wild.river View Post

deliberate?
Hell nah! You really think I wanted to do Holy Communion on my own? I still remember it clearly, and I'm still full of shame at the embarrassment I felt when I couldn't fold my hands properly.
Mar 25th, 2013 08:50 AM
Barrie_Dude
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helen Lawson View Post
They went the wrong way. Gay-hating, anti-woman far-right kook. It's really hard to believe anyone is a practicing Catholic anymore.
By Vatican standards, this is left leaning and it is almost reveloutionary in that he is from the Americas. Granted, the church is a couple of centuries and about a million miles behind, but it is a step in the correct direction


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Mar 20th, 2013 11:14 PM
$uricate
Re: New Pope Francis!

Quote:
Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post
I wore a DKNY jacket for my confirmation, was really nice probably my first designer clothing item.
And they let you in with that?

Couldn't they detect your orientation?
Mar 20th, 2013 11:04 PM
wild.river
Re: New Pope Francis!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward. View Post
Oh god, don't even talk about my Holy Communion, what a day that was!

I was supposed to it with the rest of my class, in a big ceremony in the church. Unlucky for me, I was away on holiday at the time, so when I returned I had to do it alone, in the church, surrounded by all the regular churchgoers. I had to go up there, on my own, and receive communion from the priest. I was folding my hands wrong and he had to show me how to fold them probably, all in front of a huge crowd of churchgoers!

After this, we were lounging around outside when our priest came along and started talking to us. After a while, we had someone managed to talk him into joining us for dinner. So we went along to the restaurant, with Father Jim in tow, and had a big meal. Think Father Jim had a little too many glasses of wine because he seemed rather worse for wear at the end from what I can recall.

So yeah...my Holy Communion was a little more interesting and unique than anyone elses in my class.

deliberate?
Mar 20th, 2013 10:38 PM
Edward.
Re: New Pope Francis!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corswandt View Post
People I talked to went beyond confirmation (called crisma here). When they were 16-18 y.o., they attended some rather Spartan retiros (lit. "retreats"), usually held in dark, dank, clammy seminars at old monasteries, featuring absurdly early rises, 6-8 people in each (small) dorm room, communal showers without hot water, endless sermons well into the evening, thunderous scolding against the slightest attempt at levity, and infrequent, meager meals.

I suppose the priests used all those horrors to scare away prospective candidates to the priesthood that were short on the required levels of commitment and self-sacrifice.

BTW the first communion is a very big deal socially in Portugal. I remember attending several when I was a kid (those were my cousins' first communions) and, oddly, I wasn't jealous of all that pomp and of being the center of attentions. I was lazy even as a kid and all I could think was "What a hassle this must be. Good thing I don't have to go through all of this unless I want to." (which was what my parents told me when I asked if I had to do my own first communion)
Oh god, don't even talk about my Holy Communion, what a day that was!

I was supposed to it with the rest of my class, in a big ceremony in the church. Unlucky for me, I was away on holiday at the time, so when I returned I had to do it alone, in the church, surrounded by all the regular churchgoers. I had to go up there, on my own, and receive communion from the priest. I was folding my hands wrong and he had to show me how to fold them probably, all in front of a huge crowd of churchgoers!

After this, we were lounging around outside when our priest came along and started talking to us. After a while, we had someone managed to talk him into joining us for dinner. So we went along to the restaurant, with Father Jim in tow, and had a big meal. Think Father Jim had a little too many glasses of wine because he seemed rather worse for wear at the end from what I can recall.

So yeah...my Holy Communion was a little more interesting and unique than anyone elses in my class.
Mar 20th, 2013 02:49 PM
KournikovaFan91
Re: New Pope Francis!

I wore a DKNY jacket for my confirmation, was really nice probably my first designer clothing item.
Mar 20th, 2013 11:37 AM
Corswandt
Re: New Pope Francis!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward. View Post
The Portuguese system does sound quite similar to over here in the UK. I went to a very conservative Roman Catholic high school and secondary school and social interaction was always encouraged. Participation in the boy scouts was encouraged (and I was a member for a while). The Confirmation process was a very long, drawn out affair, going on for several months, with meetings and social events held in meeting halls next to the Church, involving not just students from my own school, but students from nearby Catholic schools too. I never understood the rigmarole and why they couldn't just hurry up and get us confirmed quickly in the Church.
People I talked to went beyond confirmation (called crisma here). When they were 16-18 y.o., they attended some rather Spartan retiros (lit. "retreats"), usually held in dark, dank, clammy seminars at old monasteries, featuring absurdly early rises, 6-8 people in each (small) dorm room, communal showers without hot water, endless sermons well into the evening, thunderous scolding against the slightest attempt at levity, and infrequent, meager meals.

I suppose the priests used all those horrors to scare away prospective candidates to the priesthood that were short on the required levels of commitment and self-sacrifice.

BTW the first communion is a very big deal socially in Portugal. I remember attending several when I was a kid (those were my cousins' first communions) and, oddly, I wasn't jealous of all that pomp and of being the center of attentions. I was lazy even as a kid and all I could think was "What a hassle this must be. Good thing I don't have to go through all of this unless I want to." (which was what my parents told me when I asked if I had to do my own first communion)
Mar 19th, 2013 06:48 PM
Edward.
Re: New Pope Francis!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corswandt View Post
Bolded part I had no idea. All the more so as in Portugal Catholics seem to be very much in line with the Catholic hierarchy's rules regarding moral and family issues. What the Portuguese Catholics seem to wish for is to be allowed more of a say in the way the Church as an institution is run, and/or for it to allow for a more personal, and less formal/institutional, religious experience.

The Catholic Church in Portugal nowadays is an old fashioned social network for the upper middle classes more than anything else - starting with the escuteiros (a Boy Scout organization ran by the Catholic Church; there's an older, non-Catholic Boy Scout group named escoteiros which remains in the shadow of its much larger Catholic counterpart) and then with youth debating groups in every parish, supposedly for prayer and biblical discussion, but whose main purpose is for teenagers to find future husbands/wives among proper fellow Catholics.
Yes indeed. The most famous example being Vice President Joe Biden...a Catholic who supports gay marriage (and was at the Papal inauguration today incidentally).

The Portuguese system does sound quite similar to over here in the UK. I went to a very conservative Roman Catholic high school and secondary school and social interaction was always encouraged. Participation in the boy scouts was encouraged (and I was a member for a while). The Confirmation process was a very long, drawn out affair, going on for several months, with meetings and social events held in meeting halls next to the Church, involving not just students from my own school, but students from nearby Catholic schools too. I never understood the rigmarole and why they couldn't just hurry up and get us confirmed quickly in the Church.

In the end I never completed the Confirmation classes...I was sick of the whole business, especially as it took part in the evenings before school the next day, so I just stopped going and was never confirmed in the end.

I've been a wayward Catholic ever since.
Mar 19th, 2013 12:12 PM
Corswandt
Re: New Pope Francis!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward. View Post
Aye, that all be true. There is clearly a massive disconnect between the hierarchy and the people in the pews...I saw a poll last week that showed 55% of American Catholics support gay marriage (as I do, incidentally) which is unthinkable to the Pope and his cardinals.

They need to temper the rhetoric or risk alienating Catholics further.

I think the new Pope has done a very good job in his first week...the humble, modest tone and his obvious willingness to associate himself with his followers is very positive. You just know he's not far away from coming out with a mad, inflammatory comment about abortion or gays though.
Bolded part I had no idea. All the more so as in Portugal Catholics seem to be very much in line with the Catholic hierarchy's rules regarding moral and family issues. What the Portuguese Catholics seem to wish for is to be allowed more of a say in the way the Church as an institution is run, and/or for it to allow for a more personal, and less formal/institutional, religious experience.

The Catholic Church in Portugal nowadays is an old fashioned social network for the upper middle classes more than anything else - starting with the escuteiros (a Boy Scout organization ran by the Catholic Church; there's an older, non-Catholic Boy Scout group named escoteiros which remains in the shadow of its much larger Catholic counterpart) and then with youth debating groups in every parish, supposedly for prayer and biblical discussion, but whose main purpose is for teenagers to find future husbands/wives among proper fellow Catholics.
Mar 18th, 2013 05:37 PM
Edward.
Re: New Pope Francis!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corswandt View Post
Excellent post. This problem of the tone has been noticed and commented on even by people within the Catholic hierarchy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOUtij7rI1s&t=12m16s (near the end of Cardinal Dolan's answer, c. 12:50) - "shrill scold".

The Catholic Church persists in being prescriptive w/r/t social issues, and always tries, through the pervasive power of its structure and its social and even political influence in many countries, to impose those views on others. It criticizes and excludes anyone who doesn't conform to its own perceptions on family issues and it criticizes organizations and politicians who are willing to give people the freedom not to follow the social/moral rules and perceptions the Catholic Church preaches.

Deep down, you can feel that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church still feels entitled to dictate moral rules to, and pass judgment on, every person within any society, and that it regrets no longer having the power it once had to enforce those rules and judgments.
Aye, that all be true. There is clearly a massive disconnect between the hierarchy and the people in the pews...I saw a poll last week that showed 55% of American Catholics support gay marriage (as I do, incidentally) which is unthinkable to the Pope and his cardinals.

They need to temper the rhetoric or risk alienating Catholics further.

I think the new Pope has done a very good job in his first week...the humble, modest tone and his obvious willingness to associate himself with his followers is very positive. You just know he's not far away from coming out with a mad, inflammatory comment about abortion or gays though.
Mar 18th, 2013 01:48 PM
Wert.
Re: New Pope Francis!

yay! Congrats


Mar 18th, 2013 12:25 PM
Corswandt
Re: New Pope Francis!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward. View Post
The problem is with the Catholic Church's tone. Social issues are almost an obsession with the hierarchy and by constantly involving itself in these debates and coming out with inflammatory, caustic comments about gays and contraception and abortion and the other stuff, it serves to turn more and more people off the church.

Look at the Dalai Lama in comparison. He himself does not support gay marriage or abortion (though he does in certain circumstances), and shares largely the same views as the Church on these issues. The difference is that he very rarely gets involved in these matters, because he is smart enough to realise that people have differing views and knows that involving himself in the culture wars does neither himself or other buddhists any favours.

Hence, he focuses solely on a positive, upbeat message, supporting the poor and speaking out in favour of peace and reconciliation and he is a widely loved and beloved figure as a result. Hindus are much the same. You very rarely see people attacking Buddhists or Hindus for their views on marriage or abortion, despite them being very widely practiced religions in their own right.

Why can't the Church learn some lessons from them?
Excellent post. This problem of the tone has been noticed and commented on even by people within the Catholic hierarchy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOUtij7rI1s&t=12m16s (near the end of Cardinal Dolan's answer, c. 12:50) - "shrill scold".

The Catholic Church persists in being prescriptive w/r/t social issues, and always tries, through the pervasive power of its structure and its social and even political influence in many countries, to impose those views on others. It criticizes and excludes anyone who doesn't conform to its own perceptions on family issues and it criticizes organizations and politicians who are willing to give people the freedom not to follow the social/moral rules and perceptions the Catholic Church preaches.

Deep down, you can feel that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church still feels entitled to dictate moral rules to, and pass judgment on, every person within any society, and that it regrets no longer having the power it once had to enforce those rules and judgments.
Mar 17th, 2013 05:17 AM
HippityHop
Re: New Pope Francis!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolįs89 View Post
That thread had become redundant and offensive for either part of the discussion, it was due to be closed IMHO. I'm still shocked mods closed it thoug.
If redundancy and offensiveness are grounds for closing threads, TF might as well hang it up and turn out the lights now.
Mar 16th, 2013 07:50 PM
Nicolįs89
Re: New Pope Francis!

That thread had become redundant and offensive for either part of the discussion, it was due to be closed IMHO. I'm still shocked mods closed it thoug.
Mar 16th, 2013 07:45 PM
Helen Lawson
Re: New Pope Francis!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wild.river View Post
ahhhh crap.
i reported one post as being offensive. i thought that would be easier than jumping into the off-topic argument. but i definitely did not request the whole thread to be closed or anyone to be banned.
sorry, first and last time reporting
I didn't mean you.
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