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  Topic Review (Newest First)
Mar 28th, 2013 02:10 AM
thrust
Re: Margaret Court's record

In two of Court's Aussie titles she beat Maria Bueno. One time when Bueno was #1, the other time Maria was in the top 3. She also beat BJK in two different Aussie tournaments. Once in a final and once in a semi. She also beat Goolagon twice when Evonne was a top player. Other Aussie players, especially Turner, were top players in the 60's. So in at least 6 of her Aussie wins, Margreat beat either the #1,2 or third ranked player in the world. She played in a very competitive era, much more so than Graf did in her best years after the Seles stabbing. In the end it all equals out, as Court, King, Graf, Evert and Navratilova are supreme all time greats of equal stature-IMHO
Jul 19th, 2010 12:13 PM
tennisvideos
Re: Margaret Court's record

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinrunner View Post
Have a look at this February 1966 article in The Age newspaper (Melbourne):
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...y+turner&hl=en
Well there you have it. She did suffer some nervous breakdown of sorts. You wonder what contributed to it ... shame as her previous 3 or 4 seasons had cemented her place in the top few in the world despite the fact she was a clay court specialist.
Jul 19th, 2010 02:10 AM
austinrunner
Re: Margaret Court's record

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris whiteside View Post
Just as a matter of interest there was some confusion as to why Lesley Turner dropped out for a long period in 1966.

I came across this in British Lawn Tennis April 1966:

LESLEY TURNER suffered a nervous breakdown on her return to Australia after her visit to New Zealand for tournaments. She will be out of the game for about six months so it seems unlikely she will be able to defend her French singles title.
Have a look at this February 1966 article in The Age newspaper (Melbourne):
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...y+turner&hl=en
Jul 18th, 2010 04:02 PM
tennisvideos
Re: Margaret Court's record

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris whiteside View Post
Unless the second non-grass one was played on slow clay I'm not sure it would have made a lot of difference - maybe. Margaret would have won a fair number of them.

Just as a matter of interest there was some confusion as to why Lesley Turner dropped out for a long period in 1966.

I came across this in British Lawn Tennis April 1966:

LESLEY TURNER suffered a nervous breakdown on her return to Australia after her visit to New Zealand for tournaments. She will be out of the game for about six months so it seems unlikely she will be able to defend her French singles title.
Yes I know Court would have been tough for those girls to beat on clay or hardcourt, but at least they would have been a better shot at making it to the later stages at least. Grass was definately not their surface although Jones changed her game up enough to become a real force on it in the late 60s.

Lesley did steer away from this question when I put it to her about 66. She just said something along the lines that she felt like a break from the game. So it's interesting that she reportedly had a breakdown. I have heard similar stories before but I cannot confirm anything. But obviously she wasn't the same player again.
Jul 18th, 2010 01:53 PM
chris whiteside
Re: Margaret Court's record

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisvideos View Post
Shows how great Turner was on clay before 66. Considering she won 2 French titles and almost pipped Margaret in a 3rd during her hot run is very impressive.

Had they have had 2 grass court slams, and either two on clay (or one on clay and one on hardcourt) Lesley could have made an even bigger mark on the world stage. Turner, Jones and Richey more than any other players in history were severely disadvantaged by the 3 grasscourt slams of the pre-74 era. Of course they still had Court, King and Bueno to contend with, but surely could have added to their own legacy had there been more of a balance.
Unless the second non-grass one was played on slow clay I'm not sure it would have made a lot of difference - maybe. Margaret would have won a fair number of them.

Just as a matter of interest there was some confusion as to why Lesley Turner dropped out for a long period in 1966.

I came across this in British Lawn Tennis April 1966:

LESLEY TURNER suffered a nervous breakdown on her return to Australia after her visit to New Zealand for tournaments. She will be out of the game for about six months so it seems unlikely she will be able to defend her French singles title.
Jul 18th, 2010 01:42 PM
chris whiteside
Re: Margaret Court's record

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
Hi AustinRunner-great work on Billie Jean's record, and there is no doubt I was 100% wrong when it comes to her her head to heads on clay vs some top players.

I stand by my statement that King was weak on clay though. Relatively speaking she was much more dangerous on faster surfaces, just as Evert was stronger on clay.
I think it boils down to the fact that there were different qualities to European and American clay.

Nancy has said that the American clay courts were quite a bit faster than the "red stuff".

It would look as if BJ's victories on clay came mostly in America? The Federation Cup in Berlin in 1967 was played on a strange pebbled surface unlike other European clay courts. Nancy won when they played at RG on the slower surface. Aside from Nancy if you look at the players BJ lost to in her first years at RG - van Zyl, Bowrey and Neissen, she would have expected to beat them on any other surface (the clay court Bowrey post-1965 was not as good a player as before).

She probably just didn't like the slower European courts but being the determined lady she is she eventually conquered it. RG 1972 may not have been the strongest field ever but nor was it by any means the weakest either and beating Masthoff and then the defending champion Goolagong in the final is about as tough as it comes.

Although the German field wasn't the strongest again she had to overcome Masthoff to win it.

Looking at the h2hs there seems neither rhyme nor reason to them - the surface doesn't seem to have been of great significance. Apart from a couple of players she dominated most of her rivals on all of them.
Jul 18th, 2010 04:11 AM
austinrunner
Re: Margaret Court's record

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
Pretty amazing stuff! So she went from playing Fed Cup in Italy, to California on hard courts, to Tulsa on clay, and back to Europe on grass.

It puts a whole new spin on 1966. Of course it doesn't change the fact that she dodged the French in 1966 unless the USTA forced her to go back to the US. and I highly doubt that was the case. Nancy Richey, Carole Graebner, and Julie Heldman were aslo in Europe during or before the Fed Cup, and none of them went home.
I don't know about Graebner and Heldman, but Richey did go back to the United States. She played in the U.S. Hard Court Championships in La Jolla. She was the runner-up in doubles, teaming with Dorothy Bundy Cheney.
Jul 17th, 2010 03:21 PM
Rollo
Re: Margaret Court's record

Quote:
I would be highly sceptical the USTA would have forced her to miss RG. As you say why wouldn't the other players have been too?

I believe I asked Nancy about this once and she was unaware of any such situation.

Although it is a fact that the LTA tried to prevent Ann Jones competing there in 1966 and only a threat by her to defy them forced them to cave in (in essence come to their senses). They wanted her to play minor English grass events to get practise for the Wightman Cup.

It seems hard to believe today that players once had to get permission from their Association to play abroad.

You could though almost say the USTA forced the players to miss the German Championships since the criteria for obtaining an American ranking almost made it obligatory to play the Eastern Grass Court event leading up to Forest Hills which is why few if any Americans played in Hamburg.
My jaw is dropping at Ann not winning the French in 1966 due to the LTA!
Good thing she stuck to her guns. I bet many in her position would have caved.
Jul 17th, 2010 03:18 PM
Rollo
Re: Margaret Court's record

Quote:
I agree that clay was King's weakest surface. But she was very, very good on clay, as her head-to-head records against everyone but Evert show.
Your research into King's record has given us all more respect for her clay capabilities. With Billie Jean one has to wonder if she could have racked up a lot more titles had conditions been different for her-not attending college, getting more clay tournaments under her belt, etc.

And she played the French from 1967-70 and again in 1972. When she skipped it in 1971 she was powering the Slims circuit. This is probably also true in 1973. Then from 1974 it was WTT.

Surface-wise Margaret Court had a better background for clay, which was common in Australia.
Jul 17th, 2010 11:25 AM
chris whiteside
Re: Margaret Court's record

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
Pretty amazing stuff! So she went from playing Fed Cup in Italy, to California on hard courts, to Tulsa on clay, and back to Europe on grass.

It puts a whole new spin on 1966. Of course it doesn't change the fact that she dodged the French in 1966 unless the USTA forced her to go back to the US. and I highly doubt that was the case. Nancy Richey, Carole Graebner, and Julie Heldman were aslo in Europe during or before the Fed Cup, and none of them went home.

So why did she go back to the US and skip the French?

1. She was forced back by the USTA. If this is the case why wern't the others?
2. She wanted go back to home and her new husband.
3. She hated clay.
4. The USTA gave her a nice fat guarentee to play minor events and she needed the money to help
pay bills.
5. Wimbledon was priority #1.

It could have been any or a combo of all those factors. And having never won Wimbledon I think it makes sense that she skipped Paris as her fellow Californians had before her-both Helen Wills (on her return to Europe in 1927) and Maureen Connolly skipped Paris until winning the big W.

Viewed in that light it makes sense to me the BJK passed on the red clay.

I would be highly sceptical the USTA would have forced her to miss RG. As you say why wouldn't the other players have been too?

I believe I asked Nancy about this once and she was unaware of any such situation.

Although it is a fact that the LTA tried to prevent Ann Jones competing there in 1966 and only a threat by her to defy them forced them to cave in (in essence come to their senses). They wanted her to play minor English grass events to get practise for the Wightman Cup.

It seems hard to believe today that players once had to get permission from their Association to play abroad.

You could though almost say the USTA forced the players to miss the German Championships since the criteria for obtaining an American ranking almost made it obligatory to play the Eastern Grass Court event leading up to Forest Hills which is why few if any Americans played in Hamburg.
Jul 17th, 2010 02:17 AM
austinrunner
Re: Margaret Court's record

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
I stand by my statement that King was weak on clay though. Relatively speaking she was much more dangerous on faster surfaces, just as Evert was stronger on clay.
I agree that clay was King's weakest surface. But she was very, very good on clay, as her head-to-head records against everyone but Evert show.
Jul 16th, 2010 06:24 PM
Rollo
Re: Margaret Court's record

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
I can save you time looking in King's bio, your memory is right and King DOES say the USTA prevented her from playing the French AND the post Wimby Euroclay events. The problem is the facts just don't bear out King's assertion. ... Like I say, she couldn't have entered the French until 1965 at the earliest due to college finals-and in 1965 and 1966 she was in Europe and on grass the same week as the French at Surbiton.

Actually, BJK was in Tulsa, Oklahoma playing a clay court tournament when the French Championships was going on in 1966.
Pretty amazing stuff! So she went from playing Fed Cup in Italy, to California on hard courts, to Tulsa on clay, and back to Europe on grass.

It puts a whole new spin on 1966. Of course it doesn't change the fact that she dodged the French in 1966 unless the USTA forced her to go back to the US. and I highly doubt that was the case. Nancy Richey, Carole Graebner, and Julie Heldman were aslo in Europe during or before the Fed Cup, and none of them went home.

So why did she go back to the US and skip the French?

1. She was forced back by the USTA. If this is the case why wern't the others?
2. She wanted go back to home and her new husband.
3. She hated clay.
4. The USTA gave her a nice fat guarentee to play minor events and she needed the money to help
pay bills.
5. Wimbledon was priority #1.

It could have been any or a combo of all those factors. And having never won Wimbledon I think it makes sense that she skipped Paris as her fellow Californians had before her-both Helen Wills (on her return to Europe in 1927) and Maureen Connolly skipped Paris until winning the big W.

Viewed in that light it makes sense to me the BJK passed on the red clay.
Jul 16th, 2010 06:09 PM
Rollo
Re: Margaret Court's record

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
And as for King being weak on clay-that's a fact. Her head to head vs top players on dirt is atrocious. She NEVER beat Evert on clay and a win vs. Court, Turner, or Richey on clay was rare. Quarterfinal results are meaningless IMO at this level-you either win or you don't. I give credit to Billie Jean for winning a French (she did what Seles couldn't for example) but lets face it, this is BJK's one obvious area of weakness. It's what makes Court marginally better, even if we argue over how big or small the margin is.

On clay:
King 1, Court 0
Turner Bowrey 1, King 0
King 5, Richey 1
Evert 6, King 0
Hi AustinRunner-great work on Billie Jean's record, and there is no doubt I was 100% wrong when it comes to her her head to heads on clay vs some top players.

I stand by my statement that King was weak on clay though. Relatively speaking she was much more dangerous on faster surfaces, just as Evert was stronger on clay.
Jul 16th, 2010 05:42 PM
chris whiteside
Re: Margaret Court's record

Interesting and maybe can explain some of what seem strange statistics - I asked Nancy in her career thread were the American clay courts different from the European ones and this is her answer:

"yes, our clay is quite different from the European red stuff...it is quite a bit faster..."
Jul 16th, 2010 11:31 AM
tennisvideos
Re: Margaret Court's record

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris whiteside View Post
Actually make that 6-2!!
Shows how great Turner was on clay before 66. Considering she won 2 French titles and almost pipped Margaret in a 3rd during her hot run is very impressive.

Had they have had 2 grass court slams, and either two on clay (or one on clay and one on hardcourt) Lesley could have made an even bigger mark on the world stage. Turner, Jones and Richey more than any other players in history were severely disadvantaged by the 3 grasscourt slams of the pre-74 era. Of course they still had Court, King and Bueno to contend with, but surely could have added to their own legacy had there been more of a balance.
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