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  Topic Review (Newest First)
Jan 26th, 2013 06:04 PM
bobito
Re: Do the Rules on Medical Timeouts Need Tightening Up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viennalover View Post
Forfeiting next game is pretty strict when you really has injury...
What about starts from 15-0. At least we can avoid fake MTO.
Nobody will try if you lose a point...

Bathroom break in the middle of the set also should have penalty of losing a point.
If a point penalty would do it then I'd be happy with that but I suspect that it might take a couple. I'm not saying a player should have to take a penalty to call a MTO, just that that they should have to incur one if they want to call a MTO before their opponent's serve.
Jan 26th, 2013 05:36 PM
Viennalover
Re: Do the Rules on Medical Timeouts Need Tightening Up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobito View Post
How about this:
  • Players may call for the trainer and take a MTO before their own serve for any condition that has arison during the match.
  • If a player wants to call the trainer before their opponent's serve they must forfeit that game.
  • If a player requires restrapping or taping of an existing injury they must forfeit the next game.
  • The umpire may call for the trainer immediately in an emergency

The last one is essential. Any restrictions that you place on players requesting MTOs should not endanger the player. If the player falls and hurts herself, is hit in the face by the ball or passes out, the umpire should be able to call the trainer immediately. But if the player requests the trainer, then the first three rules apply.
Forfeiting next game is pretty strict when you really has injury...
What about starts from 15-0. At least we can avoid fake MTO.
Nobody will try if you lose a point...

Bathroom break in the middle of the set also should have penalty of losing a point.
Jan 26th, 2013 05:03 PM
bobito
Re: Do the Rules on Medical Timeouts Need Tightening Up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viennalover View Post
Watching today's final, we do need MTO even with opponents serve..
In case of REAL INJURY, setting rules might cause a trouble and dangerous...

Although I do hate fake MTO or BB...

What about giving players an interview or caution for whom taking dubious MTO or BB.
Suspicious players get investigated... they might wanna avoid that after the match and stop doing it...
OR... make them pay for MTO??
That's why I suggested that, whatever restrictions you place on players requesting MTOs, the umpire should still be able to call the trainer in an emergency. Li Na falling and hitting her head today would be just such a case.
Jan 26th, 2013 11:37 AM
Viennalover
Re: Do the Rules on Medical Timeouts Need Tightening Up?

Watching today's final, we do need MTO even with opponents serve..
In case of REAL INJURY, setting rules might cause a trouble and dangerous...
Although I do hate fake MTO or BB...

What about giving players an interview or caution for whom taking dubious MTO or BB.
Suspicious players get investigated... they might wanna avoid that after the match and stop doing it...
OR... make them pay for MTO??
Jan 25th, 2013 07:11 PM
Beat
Re: Do the Rules on Medical Timeouts Need Tightening Up?

i dunno ... i mean, i hate it when players do this kind of thing (especially the two "top players in the men's game" that the OP mentions) and i comdemn this kind of behaviour. but at the same time, i think it's part of being a great player to be able to shake off an interruption like that, to be able to concentrate no matter what.
Jan 25th, 2013 05:26 PM
bobito
Re: Do the Rules on Medical Timeouts Need Tightening Up?

How about this:
  • Players may call for the trainer and take a MTO before their own serve for any condition that has arison during the match.
  • If a player wants to call the trainer before their opponent's serve they must forfeit that game.
  • If a player requires restrapping or taping of an existing injury they must forfeit the next game.
  • The umpire may call for the trainer immediately in an emergency

The last one is essential. Any restrictions that you place on players requesting MTOs should not endanger the player. If the player falls and hurts herself, is hit in the face by the ball or passes out, the umpire should be able to call the trainer immediately. But if the player requests the trainer, then the first three rules apply.
Jan 25th, 2013 03:29 PM
stromatolite
Re: Do the Rules on Medical Timeouts Need Tightening Up?

I think it's hard to make watertight rules as to when a MTO should be allowed, so I would be more inclined to go with a fairly simply system whereby players essentially "buy" MTOs through points penalties. To take the hardest edges off you could possibly give all players one get-out-of-jail-free card if they haven't taken an MTO in the preceding couple of calendar months.
Jan 25th, 2013 02:08 PM
ozza
Re: Do the Rules on Medical Timeouts Need Tightening Up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuvack View Post
That's bullshit. The bathroom breaks should be merged with medical timeouts. You get three per match. Otherwise, players will always abuse the bathroom rule. If you already used your timeouts, you either default, or crap yourself on the court. Life's a bitch. And anyway, Nike will send you a new outfit at no charge.
There is no limit of 3 MTO's per match. The limit is once you've had a MTO, you can then only get treatment at 2 more change of ends (which really treatment at change of ends should be of no problem to anyone so I dunno why this is limited anyway). In theory you could invent 5 different injuries and get MTO's for them all.
Jan 25th, 2013 01:55 PM
chuvack
Re: Do the Rules on Medical Timeouts Need Tightening Up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Third Mall View Post
Some things are absolutely necessary in tennis, and a bathroom break (without penalty) is definitely one of them. Limit when you can take them by all means, but to penalise players for them is out of the question. Same with MTOs.

That's bullshit. The bathroom breaks should be merged with medical timeouts. You get three per match. Otherwise, players will always abuse the bathroom rule. If you already used your timeouts, you either default, or crap yourself on the court. Life's a bitch. And anyway, Nike will send you a new outfit at no charge.
Jan 25th, 2013 01:53 PM
Lachy
Re: Do the Rules on Medical Timeouts Need Tightening Up?

I voted for the 2nd last option because there will always inherently be a MASSIVE blurring of the lines between "Treatable Medical Conditions" and "Non-Treatable Medical Conditions" under ITF rules. The problem is that players can literally complain of any musculoskeletal discomfort or medical illness under the sun with on-court trainers and doctors having absolutely 0% ability to ascertain whether the problem the player is complaining of even exists. These are internal problems that players are complaining of. If a player complains of back-pain, there is no way of determining if the pain exists. The word of the player must stand and treatment is issued. In essence, it's just technically impossible to enforce tight rules and regulations governing problems that nobody can 'see.' The fact that the decision of whether an injury/issue falls in the treatable vs. untreatable category lies in the hands of the tournament doctor and trainers is an unavoidable problem. I have raised this point a couple of times today, but a doctor/trainer will ALWAYS treat the player for the concern they raise (assuming it isn't cramping). The reason why is professional integrity. If a player complains of back pain for example, they will ALWAYS receive treatment because if they were denied treatment and the condition worsened, the trainer/doctor are going to have a substantial amount of explaining to do (they would be held accountable).

I'm not entirely sure the option about MTOs being taken before a player's own serve is all that great. I mean, it's going to disrupt rhythm either way. There would still be loopholes around it. I mean, a player could fake acute back pain that would warrant treatment before their opponent's service game under that rule anyway. It wouldn't matter.

One rule I would possibly argue needs tightening is the treatment of compound problems. According to current ITF rules "A player is allowed one (1) Medical Time-Out for each distinct treatable medical condition. All clinical manifestations of heat illness shall be considered as one (1) treatable medical condition. All treatable musculoskeletal injuries that manifest as part of a kinetic chain continuum shall be considered as one (1) treatable medical condition." Citing Azarenka's recent MTO, a 10 minute time-out was permitted because the treatment was on her knee and back which were considered to be two separate medical conditions. This is a massive gray area in the rule-book. Not only could a player fake injury/pain to receive a 3-minute MTO but they could also cite another issue to extend their delay. I think they should get rid of compound treatment altogether. No player should be able to have 2 different injuries treated in the same MTO. They should have to wait until the next changeover to have their other injury treated. Allowing 3 minute MTOs is acceptable. But a 10 minute MTO on compounding non-linked injuries is just ridiculous and excessive. At least if that happened the possibility of cheating would at least be limited/restricted.
Jan 25th, 2013 01:47 PM
Vincey!
Re: Do the Rules on Medical Timeouts Need Tightening Up?

Yes I think so. I at least think a player shouldn't be allowed to take a 10 minutes MTO in between games. They should only be able to have one during the change over. If it'd be a new injury or an old one that got worse they should only be allowed to have their injury assessed by the trainer and the trainer decides (according to strict rules) whether they can wait for the changeover for the MTO or if they absolutely need it right now. Basically unless it's dangerous the trainer should wait for the next change over. At least it would prevent to take a 5 or 10 minutes break in a time that you're not even supposed to sit down.

It's rather ridiculous to have a MTO for cramps, I mean there's nothing much a trainer can do beside buying time when it implies to a cramp. Massages don't do much, only times and good hydration work.

I do think that the players will find a way to go around those rules no matter what changes are made tho. Any changes to the MTO rules will need to be strictly followed by the trainer, umpires and doctors. Which might be tough, at least at the beginning. Just look at how long it took for the umpires to finally start to apply the basic rules of the challenges system.
Jan 25th, 2013 01:36 PM
StoneRose
Re: Do the Rules on Medical Timeouts Need Tightening Up?

Maybe no MTO for cramp (you can't get MTO for cramp iirc?) and retape. But i don't think so. Cure's probably worse than the disease. In the end how bad is even a tactical MTO? Sure it's gamesmanship and yes a player can lose rhythm because of this, going for a tactical MTO is certainly not a nice thing to do. But players should be level headed enough to deal with these sort of things, Sloane dealt with it in the Vika match as she said herself.

Alternatives are probably worse. If someone in a tense match suddenly can't play anymore and has to retire, because of whichever new rule, that would be much more bitter also for the spectators than dealing with the gamesmanship.

Tactical MTO's are not pleasant but i think the drama surrounding them is a bit exaggerated, certainly on TF.
Jan 25th, 2013 12:51 PM
Rollo
Re: Do the Rules on Medical Timeouts Need Tightening Up?

I'd vote for no medical timeouts at all. Play or default-period.

What would be nice to counter that is a 10 minute break if they split sets. That gives the ladies a nice break, cuts out the gamesmanship, and lets TV pause for a break or let them build up the third set.
Jan 25th, 2013 12:20 PM
Volcana
Re: Do the Rules on Medical Timeouts Need Tightening Up?

Actually, the idea of having to give up a game to take a medical timeout has merit. If it's a genuine injury, it's a game you would have lost if you didn't take the time out anyway. The fact that there is NO cost to taking an MTO is what allows abuses of the system.
Jan 25th, 2013 01:46 AM
coolfish1103
Re: Do the Rules on Medical Timeouts Need Tightening Up?

Allow bathroom breaks, as many.

Allow MTO (even for cramps), as many.

The moment it went over the changeover time, 90 seconds or 2 minutes...

Every minute = 1 point to your opponent

You can either get those done before match begins, take those penalties during the game, or get it sorted after the game.
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