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  Topic Review (Newest First)
Oct 30th, 2012 04:42 PM
Hurley
Re: Quality points & Ranking musings - 2012 Year End

Quote:
Originally Posted by StephenUK View Post
I totally disagree. The fact is that match is the match that Virginie Razzano will be remembered for for years to come, long after everyone has forgotten the rest of her career because it is one of the greatest upsets in the open era, I would put it in the top 5, the fact that she is the only player to have EVER beaten Serena in a grand slam first round makes it even more incredible.
Stopped reading here because this has nothing to do with anything relating to a ranking system to establish a player's relative excellence. I mean LOL.

Let's make Santoro #1 because everyone loves his magical shots even though his career record is 5-1378937.

No, wait, let's push Robson right into the Top Ten because she ended Kim-GOAT's career and it was a unique and moving moment.

Come ON. This is sports, not "Dancing with the Stars."
Oct 30th, 2012 03:58 AM
dencod16
Re: Quality points & Ranking musings - 2012 Year End

LOL, this is even more ridiculous because the original one only gave 100 against world no. 1
Oct 29th, 2012 11:45 PM
Flopniacki
Re: Quality points & Ranking musings - 2012 Year End

Marion earned 429 quality points at Miami under this system, but only reached the semis
Disagree with the system though, to many unfair inaccuracies.
Oct 29th, 2012 11:38 PM
StephenUK
Re: Quality points & Ranking musings - 2012 Year End

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurley View Post
No. Things like that are exactly why they were removed; in fact a better argument in favor of their removal cannot be made.

La Razz is one of my favorite active players (seriously!), but over 100 extra points (on top of the insane 100 she got just for winning that first-round match) would have been sheer lunacy, considering how dire her performance was throughout the duration of the calendar year.

I am somewhat in favor of bringing them back, but at a drastically reduced amount, and only for wins over a select few players (say, Top 10 or Top 20 at the most). No one should get quality points for beating #21 Lepchenko and indeed should have all of their points and money taken away should they lose to her.
I totally disagree. The fact is that match is the match that Virginie Razzano will be remembered for for years to come, long after everyone has forgotten the rest of her career because it is one of the greatest upsets in the open era, I would put it in the top 5, the fact that she is the only player to have EVER beaten Serena in a grand slam first round makes it even more incredible. To somehow give her no more points than the person who beat Aravane Rezai, for example, is ludicrous. The fact that the rest of Virginie's year was hopeless gives this one amazing match even more cachet.

The fact is that for players who don't win slams or make slam finals, having these big wins at slams is the only way they achieve tennis immortality. Take another example, Kathy Horvath. Who remembers her for anything but the biggest upset of the open era - her win over the unbeatable Martina Navratilova at Roland Garros 1983. The fact is that 1983 was not one of her best years, she dropped in the rankings, and she played much better in later years when she reached the top ten, nothing of which is at all memorable compared to that one win.

The issue about the 100 points for winning a first round match is a separate one - this is connected to the general ridiculous points inflation instigated a couple of years back loading points onto winning first rounds, as a way of dealing with the issue of the bagel girls - look at all the points for second rounds and the gap between winning two matches or one and the gap between winning a match and losing first round is completely skewed.
Oct 29th, 2012 09:25 PM
Hurley
Re: Quality points & Ranking musings - 2012 Year End

Quote:
Originally Posted by StephenUK View Post
Virginie Razzano would have got masses of quality points for beating Serena Williams at the French Open and given that it was the upset of the year, surely she deserved them.
No. Things like that are exactly why they were removed; in fact a better argument in favor of their removal cannot be made.

La Razz is one of my favorite active players (seriously!), but over 100 extra points (on top of the insane 100 she got just for winning that first-round match) would have been sheer lunacy, considering how dire her performance was throughout the duration of the calendar year.

I am somewhat in favor of bringing them back, but at a drastically reduced amount, and only for wins over a select few players (say, Top 10 or Top 20 at the most). No one should get quality points for beating #21 Lepchenko and indeed should have all of their points and money taken away should they lose to her.
Oct 29th, 2012 07:25 PM
StephenUK
Re: Quality points & Ranking musings - 2012 Year End

You should not forget the effect of quality points further down the rankings too. Virginie Razzano would have got masses of quality points for beating Serena Williams at the French Open and given that it was the upset of the year, surely she deserved them. On the other hand, a player like Su-Wei Hsieh who can make the top 25 without a single top 30 win (excepting a walkover v Aga Radwanska) and only two top 50 wins all year, would deservedly be affected in the opposite direction.
Oct 29th, 2012 04:44 PM
Hurley
Re: Quality points & Ranking musings - 2012 Year End

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick345 View Post
Different system. Same shit. Every system has flaws. Obviously the top ranked player cannot play against herself. She´ll also get easier draws as a result of her ranking. Then you have the issue of the surface and injury factor. Is is really worth more to beat Wozniacki than Clijsters at the Australian Open? What about beating Radwanska instead of Errani at the French Open? What about beating Stosur at Wimbledon instead of Lisicki?
Such issues, among others (e.g. tanking in smaller events) are why they were removed in the first place.

Where quality points really could help, however, is at non-Slam events, as that would take depth of field into play. No reason the winner of Linz should receive the same amount of points as the winner of Baku, or someone going deep at this year's Carlsbad event should get the same reward as a comparable round finish by someone else at Sydney.
Oct 29th, 2012 04:35 PM
guichard
Re: Quality points & Ranking musings - 2012 Year End

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick345 View Post
Different system. Same shit. Every system has flaws. Obviously the top ranked player cannot play against herself. She´ll also get easier draws as a result of her ranking. Then you have the issue of the surface and injury factor. Is is really worth more to beat Wozniacki than Clijsters at the Australian Open? What about beating Radwanska instead of Errani at the French Open? What about beating Stosur at Wimbledon instead of Lisicki?
Or to take a ATP example, beating Murray on clay
Oct 29th, 2012 04:34 PM
guichard
Re: Quality points & Ranking musings - 2012 Year End

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meelis View Post
This is why such recalculations don´t mean much. Had quality points been there this year, then rankings and draws would have been completely different. It´s impossible to tell, how the year end rankings would have been looked like, as it´s impossible to retroactively redo the draws and replay matches that were never played. If WTA ever should bring quality points back, then for sure they would not recalculate the past results.
Yeah but you know medias and fans love to whine about quality point. X player would have been ranked higher, junior are not progressing... While the fact is there is no way to truly know. Serious "publication" have done this kind of recaculation to prove their point about the "flawed current system". I know it doesn't make it right but...
Oct 29th, 2012 04:06 PM
Patrick345
Re: Quality points & Ranking musings - 2012 Year End

Different system. Same shit. Every system has flaws. Obviously the top ranked player cannot play against herself. She´ll also get easier draws as a result of her ranking. Then you have the issue of the surface and injury factor. Is is really worth more to beat Wozniacki than Clijsters at the Australian Open? What about beating Radwanska instead of Errani at the French Open? What about beating Stosur at Wimbledon instead of Lisicki?
Oct 29th, 2012 03:57 PM
Morning Morgan
Re: Quality points & Ranking musings - 2012 Year End

This is some sort of the "best case" scenario calculation. For example, in the case for Serena, this is the maximum number of quality points she would have gotten this season. If the quality points system was implemented this year, she would have been most likely ranked higher at some point in time, and would have earned less quality points.
Oct 29th, 2012 03:52 PM
Nicolás89
Re: Quality points & Ranking musings - 2012 Year End

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meelis View Post
This is why such recalculations don´t mean much. Had quality points been there this year, then rankings and draws would have been completely different. It´s impossible to tell, how the year end rankings would have been looked like, as it´s impossible to retroactively redo the draws and replay matches that were never played. If WTA ever should bring quality points back, then for sure they would not recalculate the past results.
Thread Closed.
Oct 29th, 2012 03:49 PM
Meelis
Re: Quality points & Ranking musings - 2012 Year End

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geisha View Post
Wait. Am I missing something? How do we know if Serena would be ahead of Maria by the time the YEC came around. She'd be getting #3 points not #2 points. Right?
This is why such recalculations don´t mean much. Had quality points been there this year, then rankings and draws would have been completely different. It´s impossible to tell, how the year end rankings would have been looked like, as it´s impossible to retroactively redo the draws and replay matches that were never played. If WTA ever should bring quality points back, then for sure they would not recalculate the past results.
Oct 29th, 2012 03:37 PM
Geisha
Re: Quality points & Ranking musings - 2012 Year End

Wait. Am I missing something? How do we know if Serena would be ahead of Maria by the time the YEC came around. She'd be getting #3 points not #2 points. Right?
Oct 29th, 2012 02:39 PM
tejmeglekvár
Re: Quality points & Ranking musings - 2012 Year End

Added "Quality Points earned by winners of the biggest tournaments" to 2nd post.
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