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Kisha
Feb 14th, 2002, 11:39 PM
im curious.
do any of you guys no the answere to these questions. it would be great if you could.

1 - how many black/ coloured girls are there on the tour?

2 - can you name some? (i know the top ones, venus,serens,chanda,alex,sonja)

3 - who are the up and coming dark prospects?

thanks for the help!

ASV
Feb 15th, 2002, 12:25 AM
I know Mashona Washington is African American, but I have no idea how old she is...all I know is she isn't well known and MaliVai's sister.

Also, Lori McNeil, Amanda Coetzer's coach and doubles partner, is black.

I think think that with the immense popularity of Venus and Serena in pop culture, young black girls will emulate them and want to be like them and play like them, too.

disposablehero
Feb 15th, 2002, 12:33 AM
Mashona Washington is 25, and has a career high ranking of 112.

My understanding is that young (about 16 yo) players Shadisha Robinson and Jamea Jackson are black. I suspect Jackson is the one more likely to do well.

Infiniti2001
Feb 15th, 2002, 12:33 AM
Why this topic for your thread??? I can assure you that NOT all black folk come from the ghetto ::::rolling eyes::::

Kisha
Feb 15th, 2002, 12:37 AM
i know, but i thought that if i wrote black girls it would be abit blunt. i will change it.
i didnt mean to cause offence. sorry.

Dawn Marie
Feb 15th, 2002, 02:12 AM
Hey infiniti don't feed the trolls.:)

Remember were supposed to be cool to the haters.. lmao:) Girl I know it's hard but we must work together.. and when you find me getting in someone's ass help me too.:)

Fearless Venus rulez:)

Althea
Feb 15th, 2002, 02:30 AM
How many coloured girls?:eek: :eek:

How many black or AfroAmericans are on the tour, would have worked just fine.

Hi Dawn and Infiniti :wavey: :wavey:

moon
Feb 15th, 2002, 03:12 AM
I think you guys are being a bit to hard on Kisha.
I think she's from England, and she may not be clued in that the "colored girl" thing not so cool in the USA.

Lisbeth
Feb 15th, 2002, 03:47 AM
I agree with Moon that different terms are acceptable in different places. "Afroamerican" is a great term in itself but doesn't exactly describe a dark skinned person who does not reside in America!

Anyway, she is not a current player but the new Australian Fed Cup captain is Evonne Cawley (nee Goolagong), who is Aboriginal.

Ted of Teds Tennis
Feb 15th, 2002, 04:04 AM
It all depends on how you define "colored". I remember hearing somebody using the term "persons of color" and suggesting that the only persons not of color are albinos, and possibly Michael Jackson. :)

Having said that, in addition to the names given, there's Dally and Natacha Randriantefy from Madagascar, and Anne Keothavong from the UK (her parents are from Laos).

Stevenson, of course, is of "mixed-race" or "interracial" or whatever the US Census Bureau put next to that check box. I refused to fill in any of the boxes for race since that's not the point of the Census according to the Constitution. :)

And what about all the Asian players? Do they count as "colored"?

--Ted, who wishes Chanda weren't injured....

LucasArg
Feb 15th, 2002, 04:08 AM
YOU FORGOT CARA BLACK:wavey:

Becool
Feb 15th, 2002, 04:13 AM
Cara Black is not black, only in her name.

Dally Radrianteffy and Natacha Dally's sister are black :)

Williams Rulez
Feb 15th, 2002, 08:05 AM
Hey, Kisha is black too you know! But she lives in England and maybe doesn't know these terms too well.

Dawn and Infiniti, I think you are being too harsh on her ;)

Now let's shake hands and be friends again :D

saki
Feb 15th, 2002, 09:57 AM
Can someone explain to me what's offensive about the term "coloured"? I remember using it once on the Sanex board & people took offense. And I was using to describe myself...

I'm from England too.

Crazy Canuck
Feb 15th, 2002, 10:31 AM
saik - I think she changed the name of the thread from whatever it is that they were biting her head off about originally.

its unfortunate that a great, respectful poster like Kisha, can't even ask a simple question without getting her head bit off. Anyone who would call her a hater, clearly has never read a single post of Kisha's before. The way some people throw around the word "hater" is just unbeleivable.

I'd help you out Kisha, but I have no idea.

Though like already said, I imagine that Venus and Serena will/have inspired tons of children of all races to get out their racquets, so hopefully in a few years time the tour will be more racially diverse :)

Crazy Canuck
Feb 15th, 2002, 10:32 AM
"But she lives in England and maybe doesn't know these terms too well. "

Maybe she it didnt occur to her that the world revolves around American slang? *cough*

sartrista7
Feb 15th, 2002, 11:00 AM
If you're including Sonya Jeyaseelan and Anne Keothavong (who has a sister, Lena, who's just starting out) as black/coloured/whatever ('coloured' isn't seen as particularly offensive in the UK - I didn't know it was in America), then there are lots of girls from India on tour. Nirupama Vaidyanathan (the first female Indian pro) is their top player. Manisha Malhotra and Sonal Phadke have had good results, and they have a good junior in Sania Mirza.
Then there's Selima Sfar from Tunisia (in the top 100), Bahia Mouhtassine and Lamia Essaadi from Morocco (Mouhtassine's had great results this year), Feriel Esseghir from Algeria. There was a good Canadian junior a few years ago called Kavitha Krishnamurthy who I presume was of Indian ethnicity, but I don't think she's made an impact in the seniors.

Crazy Canuck
Feb 15th, 2002, 11:02 AM
sartrista7 - I'm fairly certaing that coloured, isn't offensive in American either, seeing as it isn't offensive in Canada.

not sure what the fuss was about :confused:

Thanks for the info though :)

Althea
Feb 15th, 2002, 11:08 AM
First - Kisha understand that you meant no harm:)

Secondly - I am Black and American. I would prefer to be called a black woman as opposed to being called a coloured/colored woman.

Dawn Marie
Feb 15th, 2002, 11:10 AM
Ditto to what Althea wrote:)

sartrista7
Feb 15th, 2002, 11:11 AM
Althea and everyone - it's probably something to do with that ludicrous British fondness for euphemism - saying 'black' is blunt and straightforward (and also was pretty offensive here for a time), whereas 'coloured' isn't so in-yer-face. I normally say 'black' though so it's good to know that it's OK :)

saki
Feb 15th, 2002, 11:16 AM
But "coloured" is a useful term. I'm English, but both my parents are Indian, so "coloured" is the easiest way of describing myself given that I'm not black, nor am I Indian by nationality.

I still don't quite understand why Althea & Dawn wouldn't like it used about them. Does it have an American connotation that I'm not hearing? I'm curious now!

thefreedesigner
Feb 15th, 2002, 11:26 AM
Well Americans (please correct me if I'm wrong) tend to use the term people 'of color' cause that basically describes anyone who isn't white.

That term hasn't really crossed the atlantic, and can sound very politically correct, but it does the job.

thefreedesigner
Feb 15th, 2002, 11:30 AM
Oh, and Sartrista I think you'll find many people opposed to being referred to as 'coloured' - certainly many black people.

I think this stems from the UK's over-obsession with political correctness. So rather than use the term black ('but you're not black, are you') people used the word 'coloured' as a fudge basically.

It's a strange one I guess, I was just discussing this with an (African) American friend of mine who would readily refer to herself as a 'woman of colour', but probably wouldn't take to kindly to being called a 'coloured woman'. I guess it's horses for courses really.

moon
Feb 15th, 2002, 12:15 PM
the term "colored" was used toward black people during the Jim Crow/segregration days here in the US to denegrate black people as in "this waterfountain for COLORED people only."
It has a negative conotation to blacks in this country. That is why many blacks in the USA do not be like to be referred to as colored. It's not as bad as the N word, but it was used to describe blacks at a time when they were seen as inferior to whites, and to this day many blacks think it is offensive.

women of color on the other hand is used in this country all the time to describe all minorities and not just black people.

brickhousesupporter
Feb 15th, 2002, 12:42 PM
There is a movie that everyone should look at. It will clear up any misconception. The movie is called "When we were colored."

Beige
Feb 15th, 2002, 12:48 PM
Moon, thanks for pointing out that Kisha is not American so she had no idea that the term "colored" would be seen as offensive. Those that got "upset", I really do understand your reasons but you have to take Kisha's nationality (she's British) into account.

No problem, Kisha. I want to comment on a quote from one of your previous posts on this thread:

i know, but i thought that if i wrote black girls it would be abit blunt.

First of all, generally speaking (this isn't an "attack" on you, Kay, smile), there is nothing wrong with creating a thread about "black girls" on the tour. Can anyone think of a reason? I can't. Secondly, "a bit blunt"-- what's blunt about asking about black players? "A bit blunt" (and then some) is discussing the penis sizes of ATP players; inquiring about players of color is not.

I am a "person of color" and use the term sporadically. I use minority as well. "Colored people" has always been negative to me for the very reasons moon so clearly explained. Non-Americans may not comprehend it, wondering perhaps what the "uproar" is about but to people of color in the US, there's no mistaking the "discomfort" with the word "colored". Like moon said it isn't as bad as the N-word but people remember.

BK4ever
Feb 15th, 2002, 01:31 PM
I agree with Moon as well. Blacks in America, especially the ones who grew up during the Civil Rights movement despise the word colored. Up to this day, my grandpa refuses to eat OUT because all he can remember as a child is NO COLOREDS ALLOWED. Its still very painful for him.

I came right into this thread ready to raise hell when I saw the thread and immediately realized that this person might be British or Canadian where I have frequently heard the word used. A british client once referred to me in a meeting as colored and let me tell you it was not pretty. I had to explain to her that even though it was acceptable in her country, it was blasphemous in ours.

Now that you understand the origins of the term, I hope, Out of respect, that the threads title be changed.

thefreedesigner
Feb 15th, 2002, 02:01 PM
Just to point out again: In the UK you will offend many a black person by referring to them as 'coloured', and I'm surprised that Kisha wouldn't have known this.

Brian Stewart
Feb 15th, 2002, 02:07 PM
I'm willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt at first, so I'll assume Kisha meant no harm. We do have to keep in mind that this is an international board, and what might be offensive in one culture is innocent in another. (I'm sure we Yanks are occasionally guilty of this too.) It's important to assess the overall meaning of someone's statements rather than the individual words used. We can always point out politely any words that offend us.

Anyhow, getting to the intended subject of this thread, other black players on tour not already mentioned include:
Katrina Nimmers (a childhood chum of the Williams sisters)
Briana and Tumeka Harris
Megan Bradley
La Shawnn Jones
Erica Adams (no relation to Katrina)
Shenay Perry(? not sure of her)
Another set of Madagascan sisters- Aina and Valisoa Rafolumanansiatosika
DeWonder Davis (whose "career" seems to consist of filling qualifying slots in low-level challengers)

And a pair of sisters from Great Britain, Tojake and Rukeme Ukwade. Their problem has been funding. The LTA says they wouldn't consider providing any until the sisters play some touraments "of a decent standard" to prove they are talented enough to merit it. However, to get into said tournaments costs.... money. With such a catch-22 in place, effectively blocking young players from lower-income backgrounds, it's no wonder that the LTA hasn't produced a lot of quality players in recent years.

Infiniti2001
Feb 15th, 2002, 02:07 PM
Now that you understand the origins of the term, I hope, Out of respect, that the threads title be changed.

EXACTLY!!! It was originally Ghetto girls which I objected to, now it's been changed to an even more offensive title... As for the term dark prospects, what exactly does that mean???


its unfortunate that a great, respectful poster like Kisha, can't even ask a simple question without getting her head bit off. Anyone who would call her a hater, clearly has never read a single post of Kisha's before. The way some people throw around the word "hater" is just unbeleivable.

Becca , why don't you quit being contentious??? If you really knew the history you wouldn't stop to check out the poster's profile before responding either... :rolleyes:

BK4ever
Feb 15th, 2002, 02:11 PM
Wait, I obviously missed something here...was the original title of the thread "Ghetto Girls" for real??????

Iconoclast
Feb 15th, 2002, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Brian Stewart
Another set of Madagascan sisters- Aina and Valisoa Rafolumanansiatosika

"Rafolumanansiatosika!" :eek:

Sobriety Test! Gotta love those Malagasy names...

Beige
Feb 15th, 2002, 02:20 PM
tfd, sorry I missed that the first time.

I don't retract my initial post but I think we have a case of semantics at play here.

thefreedesigner
Feb 15th, 2002, 02:23 PM
Hey beige, don't I wouldn't expect you to retract anything. I was just making a point. Stating the facts, if you will. :)

Beige
Feb 15th, 2002, 02:30 PM
tfd, my bad. sorry if my last post sounded terse and/or confrontational. Not at all. I was talking to all readers of this thread and essentially suggesting that despite Kisha's choice of words, her intentions were not malicious.

Aloysius
Feb 15th, 2002, 02:33 PM
Other posters have named the majority of current black players. However, an African-American player of the past was Camille Benjamin. A former French Open semi-finalist, I believe.

Btw, I had no idea that Megan Bradley was black. How curiousness.

Bright Red
Feb 15th, 2002, 04:04 PM
Very interesting thread.

I have several African-American friends and based on what I've learned from them, moon's post nicely explains why the term 'colored' is offensive but 'people of color' is not.

Becca. No offense intended, but it's not like Dawn and Infiniti are asking the world to revolve around American slang. You are twisting it around and making them look like the bad guys. They are just stating that they are offended. We are obliged to not offend people from whatever country or culture they may be. I think Kisha has the right idea because she at least changed her thread title in an attempt to not offend.

Final point, and I can only speak for what it's like in the US. For many of these types of expressions, it depends on who's saying them. I know that many of my African-American friends use the 'N' word when referring to each other. Even though the the expression can be extremely offensive, it's no big deal to them, and it appears to be a term of endearment more than anything else. Now, if I were to try to call them that, I'd probably go from Bright Red to Black & Blue (j/k). But the point is that they would put me in check about it.

For this reason, I am curious as to why Kisha would get into it for using a much less offensive term given she's black. I'm thinking that the answer might be 1) she uses it in the company of non-blacks, and 2) moon's reasons stated above.

At any rate, we all are more informed now. No harm intended, no harm done. Peace out.

Jessica02
Feb 15th, 2002, 06:21 PM
Very interesting thread i agree.

Kisha obviously didnt mean any harm, and in the U.K it is considered alot less offensive than the term black person.

My grandmother is black and she has a very strong belief in being black and proud. She dosent like to be called coloured she finds it an offense.
Yet my black friends dont at all, and find it a comfortable term to use.

I think alot of it has to do with age people of my age dont seem to have a problem with it yet, the older generation do and its for the reasons that moon stated.

The term 'people of colour' is ok everywhere, because it includes, black people, asian people, hispanic people, and mixed race people.

Tammy
Feb 15th, 2002, 07:11 PM
I think it was made clear that Kisha meant no harm so there is no need for biting anyone's haead off ;) especially when she is "black" herself..

anyhow in the US the term colored means a great deal of disrespect to african americans due to the segregation, and slavery that took place in our history.. and hence kisha being from england she may not know that and afterall we're not in the US are we ;).. so let her use the term they use in england and everyone just has to be understanding.. i am sure if she put "blacks" or "black girls" as the title people would still have a problem with it so its clear that she didn't mean any harm :)

:wavey:

can't we all just get along hmph!! :D

thefreedesigner
Feb 15th, 2002, 07:21 PM
Marti, I certainly didn't mean to get at Kisha but can I just reiterate one thing:

In the UK - in my not so unlimited experience - the word 'coloured' is very rarely used to describe black people. I know this.

You don't hear the term 'coloured' used by the BBC, by Sky, by any of the broadcast media or the print media, in describing black people.

Now, I'm not getting at anyone (how could I instruct someone on how they define themselves?), but to illustrate to non-UK folk that this is how it is.

I wouldn't call myself that 'out of touch', but in my experience, in the UK, in describing black people, the term 'coloured' is only used by the elderly or those so scared of causing offence with the term black to use the broadly inappropriate 'coloured': and again these are mainly older people.

thefreedesigner
Feb 15th, 2002, 07:28 PM
Also, can I just apologise if my comments have detracted from I know Kisha meant to be an informative and inspiring thread.

I just wanted to correct what I see as being a few misunderstandings.

Bright Red
Feb 15th, 2002, 07:31 PM
TFD

No need to apologize. It's a worthwhile distraction if anything. I think your comments helped inform a lot of us. I, for one, am more informed as a result of your posts.


I'm still thinking of names to add to Kisha's list.

Tammy
Feb 15th, 2002, 07:35 PM
okay and i respect that.. but i think everyone knows what a sweet person she is and no harm was meant for it .. but when she herself is "black" and she uses the word colored i think it becomes more than clear she meant no disrespect.. and it also depends on where you grow up, because here in the states people use different words for things depending on which state ur in and i am sure its like that in other countries as well

.. i just don't understand why it was in a sense turning "hostile" (i know that may be a strong word to use) when kisha re-itterared herself that it wasn't meant to offend anyone..

anyhow there was no "politically correct" or "nice" way of phrasing this thread without people getting upset about it and i think she did good in trying to have a "liberal" title..and i applaud her for that :)

:wavey:

Tammy
Feb 15th, 2002, 07:37 PM
and there wasn't a need to apologize :) .. i think people just need to try and be fair about things without getting upset ..

Althea
Feb 15th, 2002, 07:43 PM
saki & sartrista :)

Moon explained it best :cool: ( at least why I take offense)
Ill feelings arise because this word was used in a derogatory by "some"whites toward by parents and grandparents, to infer that they were less than...
---------

Off the subject a little, well alot I guess...

Last year, a white/caucasion(sp?) lady an older around sixty-five or more) was telling me that some coloured/colored people had moved onto her block and that they owned two houses. She went on to say that she couldn't see how "those people" were able to afford both so they had to be doing something illegal.

I asked her was she referring to new black neighbors & she said yes. As calmly as possible... I reminded her that she was talking to a "black person" and that I, like her new neighbors, own a few houses and obtained them though hard work, which is most likely how they obtained their's as well.

She said she meant no harm. Of course by then she realized,
she'd had a slip of the lip and was feeling just a little too comfortable with good old Althea ;)

Coming from that old school she still has the mind set that "coloreds" that have anything more than a pot to piss in must be doing something underhanded in order to have obtain it..

Though by now I should be used to it, her comments still through me a bit

Now I will read the answers as to how many and what the names are of these hmmm people of colour/color are.

we can get along and learn a little something, something at the same time :)

A4
Feb 15th, 2002, 07:48 PM
Coloured is also pretty much used in South Africa. My guess is Kisha was trying to capture all different shades and meanings to the term black, (biracial, multiracial and all those US categories), and she did the best she could.
And while we all know she didn't mean any harm at all, I don't think those who responded meant any harm either, just to educate. Anyway, it made for an interesting discussion.........
just my two cents.

With the actual question, I can't think of any more, except to say Cara Black is a Zimbabwean. Maybe she deserves consideration here?

Bright Red
Feb 15th, 2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Althea
...I asked her was she referring to new black neighbors & she said yes. As calmly as possible... I reminded her that she was talking to a "black person"...

LOL! That's so funny how you had to remind her she was talking to a black person. It's also very sad that in this day and age people still have such attitudes towards some people of color.

Crazy Canuck
Feb 15th, 2002, 09:29 PM
Althea - thanks for sharing that story. Its unfortunate that in this day and age such ignoranouses are still out and about. But alas, it'd be naive of me to think that people who think like that are of the past, now wouldn't it? :(



Bright Red - "Becca. No offense intended, but it's not like Dawn and Infiniti are asking the world to revolve around American slang. You are twisting it around and making them look like the bad guys. They are just stating that they are offended. We are obliged to not offend people from whatever country or culture they may be. I think Kisha has the right idea because she at least changed her thread title in an attempt to not offend. "

I MAY have exaggerated. But I still think calling Kisha a hater was jumping the fun a little much too. I wasn't attempting to make themselves look like anything they hadn't already been. My words may have been harsh, but its how I felt. I didn't see the original title of the thread, which obviously may have effected my opinion on the matter.
But calling Kisha a troll and a hater, doesn't seem any better than what I did in response.
I do not think Kisha is obliged to offend people because she isn't from North America - I was simply pointing out that she likely didn't consider some terms as offensive as they did. Culture clash.

Howevever, like you said - Kisha changed the title of the thread, and lots of people have talked about this, and things seem a little clearer now.

So on with the subject.....

Bright Red
Feb 15th, 2002, 09:45 PM
Thanks for the explanation, Becca. I hope that I didn't offend you by pointing that out because I find you to usually be a very positive and pleasant poster. And I agree with you that some things were said that were better left unsaid, but what's done is done. Hopefully we're all the better for it.

Halardfan
Feb 15th, 2002, 09:58 PM
Coloured for me sounds an old-fashioned term, something someone of an older generation might use here, but as people have said it doesnt have the very strong negative conotation here that it does in the US...

When I look at sitcoms and TV shows here from only 20 years ago, it amazes me how racist (and sexist for that matter) some of them are...I think a lot of those shows couldn't be made now, and that at least makes a degree of progress on both those fronts.

Well, except for Fox News...(spit) :)

Crazy Canuck
Feb 15th, 2002, 10:05 PM
Chris Ba - interesting note about the tv shows. I'll try and make note of that next time I'm watching an older sitcom, to see if I notice the same thing :)

Bright Red - no offense taken. I know that I can act like a total ass sometimes, and can only expect people to point it out :) i point it out when other people do it (or I perceive other people to), so I'd be a hypocrit to not expect the same in return. I jumped the gun a little, but its all out in the open now :)

Cheers!

CiCi Bonus Baby
Feb 15th, 2002, 10:36 PM
Why are you getting so upset?

Yes, in UK only older people use the (fully outmoded and slightly offensive in UK) term "coloured" , but when an eighty-year-old granny refers to me as a "BLACK whatever" I know that only the motivation and context of a word can really cause offence and progress is measurable in terms of content not presentation!!!!!

harloo
Feb 15th, 2002, 10:42 PM
Lmao@Infinity2001:D :D Not all black people are from the ghetto.
Good point, still funny though.


As far as this issue, I will give Kisha the benefit of the doubt being from the UK. However, I hope she learns that the word coloured is very offensive. The word was basically used in the segregation era when African Americans had no rights, and Jim Crow Laws were in effect.

I disagree with Marti_fan, because their was a proper way to start a topic about African Americans on the tour.
Examples:
Current African American's on the WTA tour?
or she could of said Black Women on the tour or something.
Hey, I would of even took sista's which is better that coloured.

However, we all must realize that she didn't understand the serioousness of the term. I am in no way offended, because she unintentionally made this mistake. Hey, we all make mistakes in life which we are not proud of. Hopefully this will be an eye- opener for her.

Alright, WilliTA no infighting!!!
;)

Kart
Feb 15th, 2002, 10:57 PM
Well, having lived in the UK all 24 years of my life I can safely say that I have seen the phrase 'coloured' used many times not just to describe blacks but Indians and in fact even bi-racial people in a meant to be unoffensive manner.

thefreedesigner is right that the phrase is not used in England much, but in my personal opinion I don't think that that's because it's offensive, more that it's pretty archaic and non-descript. I do accept though that whenever I have been called 'coloured' in the past I have found it strange.

IMHO Kisha blatently meant no harm but anyone who got offended has every right to as long as they explain why. However this is a multi-national board and you can't expect people to know that what is acceptable in one country is offensive in another.

Celeste
Feb 15th, 2002, 11:25 PM
Poor Kisha, she's so nice, but she'll probably not come back for awhile (I hope she some back soon!). I'm white, but moon nailed it for those wondering. It's not an acceptable term these days unless (maybe?) you're over 70 (that is the term they are used to from 1940's though 1960's), or a cracker from the deep south. My grandparents always used the term, I don't think with any overt racial animosity, but that was what Black people were called then. I'll be in my 80's (hopefully) and be saying "Black" and "African-American" and I'm sure people will be laughing at me behind my back at my backwards, outdated terminology!

Anyway, I can't think of any Black women on the tour who haven't been mentioned, I just hope Kisha returns.

saki
Feb 16th, 2002, 12:00 AM
Thanks for the explanations! I found them very enlightening.

I've never objected to the term "coloured" when used about myself, but I guess that's just because it doesn't mean anything to me beyond being a politically correct term for non-white people.

I don't know much about black girls on tour, but I've always enjoyed watching Chanda Rubin, and very much miss Zina Garrison. What a legend!

Vanity
Feb 16th, 2002, 12:04 AM
I would disregard what Dawn Maree and Infiniti have to say. Both of them are over 30 and act as if they are a bunch of giggling 6th graders. They are obviously only here to cause a ruckus so I would just ignore their sillyness.

Kisha seems like a nice person, so I'm not sure why some others were quick to attack her?

Here's two more to add to the list:

Lilia Osterloh
Stephanie Foretz

xan
Feb 16th, 2002, 12:19 AM
Coloured is a bit of an outdated term, even in England. however i can see why it would be used. The term "black" in the UK, at least, has a vagueness about it. It was usual until recently to refer to both people of African and Indian origin as "black". However of recent years people of Indian origin have been less keen to be seen under the umbrella of "black", so it has become rather uncertain who you are talking about when you use the word "black". Similarly the word "asian" is used in Britain to describe people from the Indian subcontinent, rather than chinese/japanese.

Coloured, however is taken to apply to all non-whites, so has more certainty about it. Nowadays it is more common to use the term "ethnic minority" rather than "coloured", though "member of an ethnic minority community" is seen as long-winded, and can also be taken to apply to Greeks or Irish.

Infiniti2001
Feb 16th, 2002, 12:40 AM
would disregard what Dawn Maree and Infiniti have to say. Both of them are over 30 and act as if they are a bunch of giggling 6th graders. They are obviously only here to cause a ruckus so I would just ignore their sillyness

:rolleyes: Of course the little girl had to add her digs ... What's the matter, mommy and daddy still don't have any time for you??? :fiery: :I suppose you've seen my birth certificate right?? :rolleyes:

A4
Feb 16th, 2002, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by harloo
Lmao@Infinity2001:D :D Not all black people are from the ghetto.
Good point, still funny though.


As far as this issue, I will give Kisha the benefit of the doubt being from the UK. However, I hope she learns that the word coloured is very offensive. The word was basically used in the segregation era when African Americans had no rights, and Jim Crow Laws were in effect.

I disagree with Marti_fan, because their was a proper way to start a topic about African Americans on the tour.
Examples:
Current African American's on the WTA tour?
or she could of said Black Women on the tour or something.
Hey, I would of even took sista's which is better that coloured.


Alright, WilliTA no infighting!!!
;)



Why do you assume she meant only African-Americans? She may very well have meant people of African origin which will include North Africans like Sfar. And North Africans do not classify themselves as blacks. I don't think most blacks round the world will find coloured to be offensive, except for African-Americans. Personally, I think we are having this dicussion only because Americans are feeling hurt. Anyone else and nobody will give a rat's ass.

harloo
Feb 16th, 2002, 03:11 AM
A4, are you African or something? Don't get so defensive, you are opening up a whole different discussion. Basically that's an argument between Africans vs African Americans, and that has nothing to do with coulored being offensive. Basically, she wanted to know was their any black players on the tour no matter where they were from. I just used some examples she could of used to create a thread without being offensive. It's not the rules one must live by. Maybe I didn't include African's in my suggetions, but I meant no offense to that culture. And you may not understand why the word is offensive in the states, but a lot of posters explained why and if you can't except it then that's your opinion which you are entitled to.

A4
Feb 16th, 2002, 03:32 AM
Oh Give me a break! I don't have to be African to understand your posts. I could be from the Carribean or a number of European countries or an American. Or even Asian. Don't make this personal, will you!

Its just that I didn't see anywhere in the initial post, Kisha limiting herself to African-Americans, or "sistas". More like trying to get as many meanings into the term black as possible. Your post on the other hand seemed to focus on African-Americans more. I don't need to be an African to see that, do I?

And I agree with you. I'm not opening up a whole can of worms here. I'm not trying to talk about a clash of cultures, which will send this thread into a whole new realm, bad as it is now. I'm just stating the obvious, that for good or bad, the world wakes up and sleeps with the US. When Americans are hurt, everybody takes notice, even on tennis boards...........

Viva
Feb 16th, 2002, 04:29 AM
Poor Kisha...I'm gonna PM her and see if she's ok...

It's weird, people are suggesting she's a 'hater' to black people when she's black herself. The world is a funny place sometimes.

Rollo
Feb 16th, 2002, 04:53 AM
I'm not sure the women from Madasgascar would describe themselves as "black". I'd be curious to know what terms they are
(or aren't) comfortable with.

"Colored" in apartheid South Africa meant those of mixed race, definitely NOT blacks. I'd be curious to know if today the mixed-race population(about 8%) embraces the word or finds it offensive, like African Americans.

We can all learn something from type of threads-for that I'd like to thank Kisha:)

Kisha
Feb 16th, 2002, 12:52 PM
guys, i am so sorry that i caused all this. i just was curious and whatever thread title i posted would have been offensive.

i am sorry that i caused offence and i want you all to know that it wasnt my intention to do so.

i had know idea that you guys in America dont use 'coloured', its just its used loads of here.

Sorry once again.

Tammy
Feb 16th, 2002, 03:30 PM
Kisha hi dear :wavey:

.. there really is no need to apologize at all you made it clear that it wasn't ur intention to offend anyone.. and it sorta got out of hand at points.. but don't feel bad because as you said no matter what you titled the thread someone would of have found it offensive so you did well in naming it what you did :) .. people just have to understand that you aren't in america therefore you wouldn't know any better and your way of naming the thread was good so just brush it off and don't take it to heart :D

Kisha
Feb 16th, 2002, 03:48 PM
hey tammy!

thanks for that!!

you are a really lovely person.:)

Kisha
Feb 16th, 2002, 03:49 PM
thanks to everyone who stuck up for me!

Bright Red
Feb 16th, 2002, 04:00 PM
Kisha

You are truly a delightful person and deserve every bit of support you received.

It's unfortunate that a few perverse minds hundreds of years before us have left us with a world in which we have to tread carefully when talking about race. If anyone is to blame, they are.

Tammy
Feb 16th, 2002, 04:04 PM
Harloo i respect that you disagree with me but u must also look at this from a non-american point of view the term "colored" is used all over the world and it means no disrespect it is only here in the united states in which colored is used to "talk down" to african americans..
.. also she couldn't name it african americans because she wasn't directly speaking about americans therefore you don't call "blacks" in england african americans because of course they're not americans :rolleyes: so there was no basis to the title being "african americans" because it would be incorrect.. everyone should drop it and let it be.. kisha is a very sweet person and she didn't mean any disrespect and she was unaware of how "colored" is percieved in the states and no one should hold that against her .. i am glad some people were enlightened as to in which certian ways to address "blacks" were looked down upon but still it shouldn't be held against her.. it was merely a culture clash and thats all .. she phrased it was well as she could because no matter what she named it people would still take offense.. :)

:wavey:

Kisha
Feb 16th, 2002, 04:04 PM
thanks bright red!

you are a great person!

Tammy
Feb 16th, 2002, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Bright Red
Kisha

You are truly a delightful person and deserve every bit of support you received.

It's unfortunate that a few perverse minds hundreds of years before us have left us with a world in which we have to tread carefully when talking about race. If anyone is to blame, they are.

.. i couldn't of have stated it better bright red :D

:wavey:

Bright Red
Feb 16th, 2002, 04:17 PM
You're welcome, Kisha

You are, too.

Bright Red
Feb 16th, 2002, 04:19 PM
Thanks Marti_Fan:wavey:

Althea
Feb 16th, 2002, 04:24 PM
Kisha,

I do believe your thread proved very beneficial. Most if not all of us learned about the players and how different cultures/people feel about the use of the word coloured/colored.:)

Also it seems to me that most people just wanted to share their views and are not upset with you at all.

Happy Posting Kisha

(Marti_Fan really went to bat for ya, Go Marti *gulp* did I say that :eek: J/K:p

harloo
Feb 16th, 2002, 04:29 PM
A4, I'm sorry it's just was an example. Nothing more, nothing less. Maybe saying black was more appropriate and their is no need for me to argue this down. You seem to not get it, and that's fine. Yes, it was maybe wrong of me to limit it the African Americans or "sista's" but again I meant nothing by it.

Marti_fan regardless of your explanation this thread could of been titled differently. Yes, maybe I shouldn't of limited my examples to Americans of African descent only. However, I realize that coulored is probably a word they use in the U.K. and it's not offensive there. I respect your opinion, you are fair and balanced.

Kisha, this is not about you anymore we all know you didn't mean any harm. Dont worry, once you start a thread like this opinions clash and that's something we all enjoy. I agree with Rollo, this opens up more discussion which is interesting. However, I'll let this one go because it makes no sense of going on and on. ;) :p

GoDominiqu
Feb 16th, 2002, 04:47 PM
I agree that you should always consider where the person using words which offend you is coming from. Words can have different connotations in different countries.

For example in Germany: Here the term 'Die farbige US-Amerikanerin Venus Williams' is a common one, and the exact translation would be 'the coloured US-American Venus Williams'. So if I had opened a thread about this, maybe I would have used the word 'coloured' as well, while not thinking of something negative.
The term 'schwarz' (='black') is a common one as well.
The term 'Neger' (the English N-word is not an exact translation) is not that accepted anymore and used only rarely.

Tammy
Feb 16th, 2002, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Althea
(Marti_Fan really went to bat for ya, Go Marti *gulp* did I say that :eek: J/K:p


lol :) ... don't mind me and sorry if i over did it! but i just get upset when people "jumped" on her like that she is a really sweet person .. (pss if it makes u feel any better i am a fellow williams fan!!) :)

.. also harloo i really respect what you have to say :) and i stated my opinion and u stated yours ..and thats that no more needed to be said ;)

and i feel for the most part people handled this quite well and respectfully :D

everyone *group hug*

sartrista7
Feb 16th, 2002, 05:43 PM
:wavey: Kisha :kiss:

Really can't see how people could have thought you of all people could be offensive.

veronica
Feb 16th, 2002, 08:25 PM
Wait, I obviously missed something here...was the original title of the thread "Ghetto Girls" for real??????

OMG, this thread had me rolling! Poor Kisha! Ah well, see how tennis is bringing everyone together. :p Sweet!

DevilishAttitude
May 17th, 2005, 07:03 PM
BUMP.

Black girls in the Top 100.

Serena Williams
Venus Williams
Dally Randriantefy
Mashona Washington

And also different races to the white players.

Shinobu Asagoe
Ai Sugiyama
Paola Suarez
Marion Bartoli
Na Li
Fabiola Zuluaga
Shaui Peng
Jie Zheng
Tamarine Tanasugarn
Sania Mirza
Akiko Morigami
Catalina Castano
Yoon Jeong Cho
Aiko Nakamura

:)

*Jool*
May 17th, 2005, 07:16 PM
BUMP.



And also different races to the white players.


Marion Bartoli
Fabiola Zuluaga
Catalina Castano


:)


:confused: maybe Fabiola is tanned, but she's "white" , same for Castano
And Bartoli WTF ?? :eek:

Diesel
May 17th, 2005, 07:24 PM
im curious.

3 - who are the up and coming dark prospects?



WTF :confused: What about the light skinned high yella prospects, can't leave them out :rolleyes:

Josh
May 17th, 2005, 07:33 PM
BUMP.

Black girls in the Top 100.

Dally Randriantefy

Just wondering, is Dally black or is she Malayo-Indonesian?

alexusjonesfan
May 17th, 2005, 07:35 PM
Just wondering, is Dally black or is she Malayo-Indonesian?

Aren't Madagascans Austronesian?

pav
May 17th, 2005, 08:00 PM
Terms like this seem to so easily
cause great waves of offence
but to get Your back up over this
just dosen't make much sense
the term black makes it sound
like paint sprayed over a stencil
while coloured, You would think
of a Child at work with a pencil
and a white Person makes You think
of sandwhich bread at the most
while many so called white People
are the colour of various shades of toast
I don't care much what colour We are
as long as the blood keeps pumping through
cause every Person I've seen dead
turns a dull shade of grey/blue


http://smileys.******************/cat/36/36_1_57.gif (http://www.******************/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYYYNZ)

DevilishAttitude
May 17th, 2005, 09:19 PM
:confused: maybe Fabiola is tanned, but she's "white" , same for Castano
And Bartoli WTF ?? :eek:

Yeah but Zuluaga and Castano have a *Latina* type skin.

Bartoli I always thought wasn't a pure whit but with a background that must have had black relatives :)

Kart
May 17th, 2005, 09:48 PM
BUMP.


Do you honestly have nothing better to do than ressurrect old threads ?

I hope you realise you're missing out on your youth.

Infiniti2001
May 17th, 2005, 09:55 PM
Yeah but Zuluaga and Castano have a *Latina* type skin.

Bartoli I always thought wasn't a pure whit but with a background that must have had black relatives :)

:o :rolleyes:

Rocketta
May 17th, 2005, 11:04 PM
Do you honestly have nothing better to do than ressurrect old threads ?

I hope you realise you're missing out on your youth.'

you just know no one can stand him in the real world. :o

tucker1989
May 17th, 2005, 11:08 PM
Asha and Tiya Rolle, have they been named???

Davenselesport
May 17th, 2005, 11:11 PM
African Americans (in order of rank):

Serena Williams
Venus Williams
Shenay Perry
Angela Haynes
Jamea Jackson
Chanda Rubin

nander
May 17th, 2005, 11:24 PM
Maybe it is because all humans are 'coloured' - light pink to black. However some Europeans having decided that they were superior and pure, termed people whose colour was not pink /beige 'coloured' and used it to mean 'dirty, inferior and certainly not pure.

le bon vivant
May 17th, 2005, 11:31 PM
There goes that goddamn word again....:banghead:

auntie janie
May 18th, 2005, 12:26 AM
I know, how about a thread where we list the "white" players in color order. Like, Amy Frazier would definitely be #1 if we start at the pale end of the scale. Then we can fight over who has the deepest tan, then who is the tannest tall girl, the tannest teen, the tannest European, the tannest natural blonde? Then of course people can also dredge up famous tans from the past: who was the tannest ever? And :eek: dare we ask whose tan is FAKE? There is so much to cover, I just can't wait! ;)

Wannabeknowitall
May 18th, 2005, 12:37 AM
Mashona Washington is 25, and has a career high ranking of 112.

My understanding is that young (about 16 yo) players Shadisha Robinson and Jamea Jackson are black. I suspect Jackson is the one more likely to do well.

Mashona Washington is almost 29 and her career high was 50. Shenay Perry, Angela Haynes, Jamea Jackson, Asha Rolle....etc.

veronica
May 18th, 2005, 01:41 AM
I swear stephanie foretz is a coloured girl too. She looked like a mixed girl when I saw her.


Coloured girl - y'all gotta relax on this one. LOL:silly:

Hurley
May 18th, 2005, 02:19 AM
Mashona Washington is almost 29 and her career high was 50.

You're both right.

Do you know how to read dates?

Dawn Marie
May 18th, 2005, 02:48 AM
Lmao at the fact that it ended that Keisha was a troll and a fraud. Heheehe.. at this in retrospect. Like it was so obvious.:)



I miss disposable hero.:)

mykarma
May 18th, 2005, 02:52 AM
Can someone explain to me what's offensive about the term "coloured"? I remember using it once on the Sanex board & people took offense. And I was using to describe myself...

I'm from England too.What color are you?

mykarma
May 18th, 2005, 02:53 AM
"But she lives in England and maybe doesn't know these terms too well. "

Maybe she it didnt occur to her that the world revolves around American slang? *cough*Since when did black become American SLANG?

Dawn Marie
May 18th, 2005, 02:57 AM
I am still chuckling at the fact that people thought Keisha was really ignorant with this thread and she was not acting like a jackass instead??

I mean come on: "Ghetto" girls and then "Colored" girls? Just her first thread said it all imho on what her intentions were.

Hi Infiniti:)

mykarma
May 18th, 2005, 02:58 AM
Just to point out again: In the UK you will offend many a black person by referring to them as 'coloured', and I'm surprised that Kisha wouldn't have known this.Thank you, I thought the same thing.

mykarma
May 18th, 2005, 03:03 AM
tfd, my bad. sorry if my last post sounded terse and/or confrontational. Not at all. I was talking to all readers of this thread and essentially suggesting that despite Kisha's choice of words, her intentions were not malicious.Ghetto girls is not malicious? The person is from England not Mars. If he/she doesn't know any better than to refer to black people as ghetto girls they need some serious diversity training. Makes me wonder about their home training.

Yonexforever
May 18th, 2005, 05:16 AM
WHY HASNT THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD BEEN CHANGED YET?
ITS EXCEEDINGLY OFFENSIVE AND JUST PLAIN IGNORANT!!
Moon said it more eloquently above, but since its still here im PISSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

VeeReeDavJCap81
May 18th, 2005, 05:28 AM
Why oh WHY must people use the word "coloured"??? It's so barbaric and insulting.

Dawn Marie
May 18th, 2005, 05:38 AM
quoted by Yoneforever

"WHY HASNT THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD BEEN CHANGED YET?
ITS EXCEEDINGLY OFFENSIVE AND JUST PLAIN IGNORANT!!"


Err.. because it was never planned to change from the get go. The thread was made to offend.

OMG like this thread is so old.. anyway. lol:)

hollywood7172
May 18th, 2005, 07:19 AM
first i'd like to say that the only people who can decide if being called "colored" is offensive are people who can potentially be called "coloreds". i find it amusing and amazing that some white folks here think they can decide for non-whites if being labelled "colored" is or is not offensive for them. think about it.

for the record, i find the term offensive, ignorant, and even un-scientific. like other posters mentioned, colored was first used back in the day to describe blacks. then our world turned global and instead of learning about foreign people/culture the term colored was revised to include all non-white people. so basically it is saying there are 2 races in this world: whites and non-whites; whites and coloreds, if you will. i mean forget about calling people by their appropriate race or nationality - let's just call them non-whites!! after all, aren't they all the same?

no, all coloreds aren't the same. and therefore this label sucks. it provides ZERO information on us as human beings. we may be african, japanese, puerto-rican, mexican, carribean, chinese, thai, islamic, iranian, etc etc etc. show us the respect we all deserve and call us by our proper names/nationality/ethnicity, instead of lumping us all together into one shapeless, formless, ignorant label: "not white". so is 'coloreds" offensive? you bet your ass it is.