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lizchris
Nov 9th, 2003, 02:18 AM
Since the 2003 season is winding down, we might as well look forward to 2004 and see what will happen to the top players, who to watch, who we shouldn't watch and if there are any up-and-comers we should be pay attention to:


The Belgians (Kim and Justine)

Yes, Kim and Justine were the best players of 2003, but will they be able to bring that sucess int 2004? It should be noted that they made the move to number one without the then current nubmer one (Serena Williams) in action and dominated the summer hardcourt season without any of the top Americans playing. However, they both did very well in the claycourt season before they started their dominance of the tour and that is where they have to start defending the points they earned and if the past two years are any indication, they both will lose a good deal of those points and slide in the rankings, but not that fiar down. The one who has more to lose is Justine since she won two Grand Slams and four Tier I tournaments and if the Williams sisters are back at 100%, they, especially Venus, have the chance to upset her at key tournaments, especially ones on grass and hardcourt.

The Williams Sisters; Will They Be Back?

Though Serena won two Grand Slams and a Tier I, she missed the rest of the season after Wimbeldon to have a needed operation on her knee. She wisely waited to come back in 2004, but the question is will she be able to play as well as she did and will she be able to defend her two Grand Slams? Because she hasn't played since July, it is too early to tell, but if she has recovered fully from her sugery, she should have solid results and will stay in the top 5, maybe return to number one. Venus, however, is another story. She strained her abominal muscle in early May and didn't give it time to heal as she should have and was only able to play two tournaments after that and then didn't play the rest of the season, falling in the rankings from 2 at the beginning of the year to number 11. Because she played the least amount of tournaments of all players in the current top ten, she has the most to gain in 2004, including defending her gold medal win from the 2000 Olympics, but does she have the desire to win again and will she have recovered from her injury? She says she is close to 100% recovered and ready to come back. If she is the Venus of 2000 after she came back from a long injury layoff, the rest of the tour is in trouble, but if she is the Venus of the past two years who could get to the final of a Slam but not win, then she has a good chance to get back into the top five, but little chance of getting bakc to number one. She should also consider playing more tournaments, at most 18, if she wants to stay healthy, including more Tier I's.

The Russians: They Came, But Will They Stay?

2003 saw the charge of the Russinas into the Top 50. At the present time, I belive there are nine Russians in the topp 50, four in the top 20 and two in the top Ten. There is at least one player that should crack the top 50 (Safina) and there are probably a few up and comers that will make noise in 2004. Having said that, the only two Russians I see even having a chance to win a Grand Slam in the near future is Nadia Petrova (currently number 12) and Maria Sarapova (currently number 31). That is because they have the type of game that can challenge the top players, but both must work on their serves if they are to ever be Grand Slam material. The others are just too streaky and do not have the type of games to either be top ten matieral or win a Grand Slam.

The French: Will Amelie Finally Make Some Noise and Will Sandrine Come Back?

Though injuries kept her out of two Grand Slams and other tournaments, Amelie solid play, espeically after the summer hardcourt season, will gurarntee her a year-end rank of no lower than 5. The question is will she be able to finally get to the final of a Grand Slam for the first time since 1999? Or will she be able to do better at her home Grand Slam, where a woman born and raised in France has not won since 1967?

Then there is Sandrine Testud. The Frenchwoman left the game for good after she lost at Wimbeldon in 2002, revealing she was pregnant with her first child. However, she has revealed recently that she is going to return to the game in 2004 and has been playing small tournaments. The question is, since she is in her mid 30's, can she get back in to top 100, much less the top 30, which is her goal? We will have to see.

The Veterans: Jennifer, Lindsay, Monica, Mary and Chanda

These verterans, execpt Monica, had a pretty decent 2003, but the question is will they be able to come back in 2004 to be able to play against the younger players. As of this time next year, Chanda, Jennifer and Lindsay will be 28, Mary will be 29 and Monica will be 30. Monica will be coming off a long injury layoff, Lindsay will be coming back from foot sugery and Jennifer and Mary have fitness issures to deal with before the new season starts. The other question is that will these players be able to win the big tournaments (Grand Slams and Tier 1's). Considering the young talent just in the top 30, the only person I see even having a chance is Jennifer and that chance is slim at best. I also see next year as the last for Monica if she cannot get over the stress fracture in her left foot or get other injuries.

The Return of Martin Hingis?

ESPN's Pam Shriver announced that Martina is going to give tennis one more try in 2004. The question is whether or not she has completely gotten over her ankle injury which has threatened to curtail her stellar career and can compete with the Williams sisters, the Belgians and the rising Russians. We don't know when she will play her first tournament, but most likely it will not be the Austrailian Open, which start in about 10 weeks, but we will have tosee.


Players to watch in 2004 (these players were picked because of their rise in the rankings or fall in the rankings to see if they can rebound):

Maria Sharapoca
Paola Suarez
Jelna Dokic
Daniela Hantuchova
Ashley Harkelroad
Angela Haynes
Tatiana Panova


Players not to watch in 2004 (I have lost any hope that these players can ever do anything with their careers):

Anna Kournikova
Alexandra Stevenson
Clarissa Fernandez

WhatTheDeuce
Nov 9th, 2003, 02:22 AM
im just looking forward to seeing monica seles back, anna kournikova back, the williams sisters healthy, lindsay healthy, and dokic in form and playing australia...THE WE WILL HAVE A REAL WTA TOUR!!!

SJW
Nov 9th, 2003, 02:24 AM
good analysis :yeah:

TNT96
Nov 9th, 2003, 02:59 AM
Nice Post-two thumbs up!

AjdeNate!
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:00 AM
You missed some up and comers, mainly:
Vera Douchevina
Karolina Sprem

Both of whom jumped over 250+ spots this year in rankings.

Fantasy Season
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:03 AM
Players to watch in 2004 (these players were picked because of their rise in the rankings or fall in the rankings to see if they can rebound):

Maria Sharapoca
Paola Suarez
Jelna Dokic
Daniela Hantuchova
Ashley Harkelroad
Angela Haynes


I bet that's the only reason these players were picked.

Useless article. Next.

lizchris
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:10 AM
I bet that's the only reason these players were picked.

Useless article. Next.

It's useless so that's why you wasted the time to take a part of my article and post it as a quote. Your thread is useless. Next!

DemWilliamsGulls
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:14 AM
Very good article....of course, im expecting for The Dominating Dynamic Duo (D3 :D ) ...to show up and show out in 2004. This is the year of the olympics, and I believe they are going to kick aasss and take names later. I really hope that the veterans get back on a role..because they are good players too. I honestly think that Capriati and davenport can take out the belgiums. Kim and Jen MIGHT get a grand slam.....but they have a hard enough time with justine alone, better yet...the 2 williams sisters. Aside from her looks, Kournikova has never been able to play well...and Stevenson plays a lot and still cant get her foot in the door...and i really dont see it in the near future. Seles and Chanda have thier moments, but I doubt they can get a grand slam and maybe Seles can get a major title. They do not have that killer instinct on the court. Martina Hingis....I dont know...I would like to see her return to the court but i think she is still stuck on that old school style of tennis...and that just wont cut it now days. She might want to consider "Navitarlova doubles plan" by having some assistance on the court, cuz its seems thats the only way she is getting by. :lol: I've said my piece. My predicitons of dominance

The Williams Sisters
The Belgiums
The Veterans
Everyone Else

Juju_fan
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:22 AM
The Belgians (Kim and Justine)

Yes, Kim and Justine were the best players of 2003, but will they be able to bring that sucess int 2004? It should be noted that they made the move to number one without the then current nubmer one (Serena Williams) in action and dominated the summer hardcourt season without any of the top Americans playing. However, they both did very well in the claycourt season before they started their dominance of the tour and that is where they have to start defending the points they earned and if the past two years are any indication, they both will lose a good deal of those points and slide in the rankings, but not that fiar down. The one who has more to lose is Justine since she won two Grand Slams and four Tier I tournaments and if the Williams sisters are back at 100%, they, especially Venus, have the chance to upset her at key tournaments, especially ones on grass and hardcourt.
I'm not a Kim fan, but when Kim became number one, in the press they were saying it was because of Serena's injury that Kim was the new number one. It should be noted that Kim would have been number one anyway even with Serena not having a surgery! (For the same reason as the one securing her number one position against Justine until YEC) People tend to forget it, but a few months ago we were all talking about how it was inevitable that Kim would become a slamless number one... Yeah, Kim and Justine probably dominated the hardcourt season more easily because of the absence of Serena and Venus, but Kim would have earned the top spot with Serena and Venus on the courts.

lizchris
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:32 AM
I'm not a Kim fan, but when Kim became number one, in the press they were saying it was because of Serena's injury that Kim was the new number one. It should be noted that Kim would have been number one anyway even with Serena not having a surgery! (For the same reason as the one securing her number one position against Justine until YEC) People tend to forget it, but a few months ago we were all talking about how it was inevitable that Kim would become a slamless number one... Yeah, Kim and Justine probably dominated the hardcourt season more easily because of the absence of Serena and Venus, but Kim would have earned the top spot with Serena and Venus on the courts.

Serena was set to play two tournaments in the summer that she didn't play the previous year, which would have added points with a decent showing; had that happened the earliest Kim would have been number one was after the USO.

Juju_fan
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:36 AM
Serena was set to play two tournaments in the summer that she didn't play the previous year, which would have added points with a decent showing; had that happened the earliest Kim would have been number one was after the USO.
Yeah, and she withdrew because she had some "acting activities" that seemed more important to her than defending her number one position :rolleyes:

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:36 AM
Yep..but she wouldnīt have stayed 11 weaks at no.1

azza
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:38 AM
Players to watch in 2004 (these players were picked because of their rise in the rankings or fall in the rankings to see if they can rebound):

Maria Sharapoca
Paola Suarez
Jelna Dokic
Daniela Hantuchova
Ashley Harkelroad
Angela Haynes
Tatiana Panova



and Alicia Molik she started this year 91st now is 34th :)

:(

lizchris
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:38 AM
Yeah, and she withdrew because she had some "acting activities" that seemed more important to her than defending her number one position :rolleyes:

That was the Canadian Open, which she didn't play in 2002 because she was injured. She was planning on playing the Bank of the West and the Accura Classic; those were the tournament I was talking about.

SpikeyAidanm
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:39 AM
and Alicia Molik she started this year 91st now is 34th :)

:(

*96th :D :banana:

Hazy
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:40 AM
That was the Canadian Open, which she didn't play in 2002 because she was injured. She was planning on playing the Bank of the West and the Accura Classic; those were the tournament I was talking about.

Staying healthy is part of the job of being a top player.

lizchris
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:41 AM
You missed some up and comers, mainly:
Vera Douchevina
Karolina Sprem

Both of whom jumped over 250+ spots this year in rankings.

I forgot about Karolina; I don't know who the other person is.

I forgot about Alicia, mainly because I didn't remember what her ranking was.

lizchris
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:43 AM
Staying healthy is part of the job of being a top player.

We now know that Serena wasn't 100% healhty but managed to stay at number one for 58 consecutive weeks and win 5 Grand Slam titles in the process. That's better than the current number one and incoming number one.

azza
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:47 AM
*96th :D :banana:

:speakles: GO ALICIA

beauty_is_pink
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:53 AM
nice analysis! :yeah:
I hope Daniela + Jelena get back on track! go girls! :bounce:


I cant wait for the new season!!! :crazy:

lizchris
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:58 AM
Thanks to everyone who liked my analysis.

joegerardi
Nov 9th, 2003, 04:23 AM
Very well done and cogent post!

..Joe

pav
Nov 9th, 2003, 09:25 AM
I think Your good analysis slips up a bit when You come to the Russians,are You saying the two already in the top ten have no place there?and also I think Vera Z. has the game for a top ten place and perhaps even a slam, Her serve and movement are steadily improving[anger management still needs work]but I suppose We'll know this time next year

saki
Nov 9th, 2003, 02:14 PM
Not a bad analysis.

With ref to Justine - I think it's pretty obvious that she'll lose some hardcourt points if and when Venus, Serena, Lindsay, Monica are playing well again but her improvement on hardcourt this year was genuine in that she's proven herself better than the rest on the surface. I don't think she'll lose as many points as you might think. And people seem to forget that she didn't win RG with none of the top players in the field, she beat Serena and Kim for the title and the Venus who was beaten by Zvonareva I think we can safely assume she'd have beaten too.

Another player to watch is, IMO, Maria Kirilenko - the only up and coming Russian with variety and strategy. She's also one of the few who isn't overly hyped and this should work to her advantage.

AjdeNate!
Nov 9th, 2003, 02:48 PM
Vera Douchevina
----------------
2002 end rank : 494
Current : 108

2003 IN DETAIL
January - Started season with QF finish at ITF/Southampton-GBR and reached doubles SF w/Voskoboeva
March - As world No. 392, qualified for Miami and d. world No. 70 Wartusch before l. to world No. 4 Henin-Hardenne (No. 4 seed)
April - Reached QF at ITF/Cagnes-Sur-Mer as a qualifier and won doubles, a career-first, w/Voskoboeva
June - As world No. 244, reached QF at ITF/Marseille-FRA, upsetting No. 5 seed Voracova (world No. 120) in 2r; l. in 1r of Wimbledon qualifing
July - As a world No. 226 qualifier, won career-first singles title at ITF/Innsbruck-AUT, en route passing world No. 96 Kurhajcova (No. 4 seed) and d. world No. 116 Czink in final; On July 28, 2003, ranking reached No. 181, up from July 29, 2002, debut at No. 550
August - As world No. 182, eliminated No. 86 Benesova, No. 35 Chladkova (No. 3 seed) and No. 107 Czink before l. SF (a WTA Tour career-first) to No. 95 qualifier Kostanic; as a world No. 141 qualifier (at debut Grand Slam event), l. 1r at US Open to world No. 52 Harkleroad
September - As a world No. 123 WC at Moscow, upset world No. 28 Raymond (best match win of career) before l. 2r to world No. 15 and No. 7 seed Zvonareva (two-year career has produced 44 match wins, five over Top 100 players -- two in the Top 35 (No. 35 Chladkova at this year's Helsinki and Raymond)
October - Hit career-high singles ranking of No. 108 on Oct. 6





Karolina Sprem
--------------
2002 end rank : 273
Current : 59* as of Nov 10th.

2003 IN DETAIL
January-March - Opened season with four consecutive ITF Circuit titles and a 28-match win streak - ITF/Grenoble-FRA, ITF/Southampton-GBR, ITF/Redbridge-GBR, ITF/Castellon-ESP; l. in 3r of Casablanca qualifying
April - L. in 2r of Budapest qualifing; as world No. 161, d. No. 30 Likhovtseva in a Fed Cup tie; as a WC, l. 1r at Bol to Reeves
May - As world No. 163, reached final at Strasbourg as a qualifier (also signifying first WTA Tour main draw match win of career), upsetting No. 1 seed Dokic (world No. 10) and No. 6 seed Zvonareva (world No. 22); following Strasbourg, cracked Top 100 for first time at No. 99
June - At Vienna, as a qualifier, d. Medina Garrigues (w/special ranking of No. 43) and went on to upset three seeds: No. 3 Pistolesi, No. 7 Chladkova and No. 2 Zvonareva, reaching second consecutive final (gave up a 5-1 lead over No. 4 seed Suarez in 1s of final); following Vienna, ranking surged from No. 97 to No. 70; d. Benesova at Wimbledon (Grand Slam debut) before l. to Morigami
July - Member of Croatian Fed Cup team that lost to Russia 4-1; l. 1r at Sopot to Benesova
August - As world No. 67 and No. 8 seed, reached SF at Helsinki before l. to world No. 25, No. 2 seed and eventual tournament champion Pistolesi; l. 1r to No. 17 seed Shaughnessy at US Open debut
September - Withdrew from Bali due to a right shoulder injury
October - As a world No. 65 WC, l. 1r at Linz to world No. 15 and No. 7 seed Suarez
October - As No. 2 seed, won ITF/Poitiers-FRA for fifth ITF Circuit title in 2003

Kart
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:09 PM
Interesting analysis - :rolls: at the 'players NOT to watch' bit.

I don't totally agree about Venus though - even the Venus of the last two years (particularly the one that turned up at Wimbledon) still has a good shot at no.1 IMHO. Her battles with Serena were getting closer and closer each time - she just needs to stay fit and she'll get there :).

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:14 PM
Not a bad analysis.

With ref to Justine - I think it's pretty obvious that she'll lose some hardcourt points if and when Venus, Serena, Lindsay, Monica are playing well again but her improvement on hardcourt this year was genuine in that she's proven herself better than the rest on the surface. I don't think she'll lose as many points as you might think. And people seem to forget that she didn't win RG with none of the top players in the field, she beat Serena and Kim for the title and the Venus who was beaten by Zvonareva I think we can safely assume she'd have beaten too.

Another player to watch is, IMO, Maria Kirilenko - the only up and coming Russian with variety and strategy. She's also one of the few who isn't overly hyped and this should work to her advantage.

Wrong....all of her hardcourts points are at Williams-dominated tournaments: San Diego( Venus), Canada( Serena), and not to forget the Open. Let me tell you: she ainīt defending those! She has improven, but the gap is still huge between beating Kim and beating a Williams.

jenny161185
Nov 9th, 2003, 03:40 PM
I hope we can watch Kournikova progress next year - good analysis

Paneru
Nov 9th, 2003, 04:06 PM
Interesting analysis - :rolls: at the 'players NOT to watch' bit.

I don't totally agree about Venus though - even the Venus of the last two years (particularly the one that turned up at Wimbledon) still has a good shot at no.1 IMHO. Her battles with Serena were getting closer and closer each time - she just needs to stay fit and she'll get there :).

ITA!
The Venus of the past two years was/is still able to dismantle everyone with the exception of Serena! Also, Venus has begun to play better and better as she has met Serena in the GS Finals. I think had Venus not been injured at Wimbledon that's where we would've seen the turn around for her but, a valent effort nonetheless.

Even with the so-called improvement of the Belgians I still thnk Serena is the only threat. Yes, the Belgians will give her a challenge but I still say a healthy Venus wins 9 of 10 times. Also, that fact that she was able to defeat one of them when she was clearly not 100% shows how dangerous she is and even more so when healthy.

I would prefer the Venus of 2000 but, as you said the Venus of the past two years needs only stay with it as their matches have become closer and closer.

Looks to be a very exciting year.

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 04:32 PM
not even the Venus of ī00 could have beaten this Serena. The level of Serena ī02- ī03, Venus hasnīt been at that level in her career.

Rtael
Nov 9th, 2003, 04:35 PM
Vera Douchevina
----------------
2002 end rank : 494
Current : 108

2003 IN DETAIL
January - Started season with QF finish at ITF/Southampton-GBR and reached doubles SF w/Voskoboeva
March - As world No. 392, qualified for Miami and d. world No. 70 Wartusch before l. to world No. 4 Henin-Hardenne (No. 4 seed)
April - Reached QF at ITF/Cagnes-Sur-Mer as a qualifier and won doubles, a career-first, w/Voskoboeva
June - As world No. 244, reached QF at ITF/Marseille-FRA, upsetting No. 5 seed Voracova (world No. 120) in 2r; l. in 1r of Wimbledon qualifing
July - As a world No. 226 qualifier, won career-first singles title at ITF/Innsbruck-AUT, en route passing world No. 96 Kurhajcova (No. 4 seed) and d. world No. 116 Czink in final; On July 28, 2003, ranking reached No. 181, up from July 29, 2002, debut at No. 550
August - As world No. 182, eliminated No. 86 Benesova, No. 35 Chladkova (No. 3 seed) and No. 107 Czink before l. SF (a WTA Tour career-first) to No. 95 qualifier Kostanic; as a world No. 141 qualifier (at debut Grand Slam event), l. 1r at US Open to world No. 52 Harkleroad
September - As a world No. 123 WC at Moscow, upset world No. 28 Raymond (best match win of career) before l. 2r to world No. 15 and No. 7 seed Zvonareva (two-year career has produced 44 match wins, five over Top 100 players -- two in the Top 35 (No. 35 Chladkova at this year's Helsinki and Raymond)
October - Hit career-high singles ranking of No. 108 on Oct. 6





Karolina Sprem
--------------
2002 end rank : 273
Current : 59* as of Nov 10th.

2003 IN DETAIL
January-March - Opened season with four consecutive ITF Circuit titles and a 28-match win streak - ITF/Grenoble-FRA, ITF/Southampton-GBR, ITF/Redbridge-GBR, ITF/Castellon-ESP; l. in 3r of Casablanca qualifying
April - L. in 2r of Budapest qualifing; as world No. 161, d. No. 30 Likhovtseva in a Fed Cup tie; as a WC, l. 1r at Bol to Reeves
May - As world No. 163, reached final at Strasbourg as a qualifier (also signifying first WTA Tour main draw match win of career), upsetting No. 1 seed Dokic (world No. 10) and No. 6 seed Zvonareva (world No. 22); following Strasbourg, cracked Top 100 for first time at No. 99
June - At Vienna, as a qualifier, d. Medina Garrigues (w/special ranking of No. 43) and went on to upset three seeds: No. 3 Pistolesi, No. 7 Chladkova and No. 2 Zvonareva, reaching second consecutive final (gave up a 5-1 lead over No. 4 seed Suarez in 1s of final); following Vienna, ranking surged from No. 97 to No. 70; d. Benesova at Wimbledon (Grand Slam debut) before l. to Morigami
July - Member of Croatian Fed Cup team that lost to Russia 4-1; l. 1r at Sopot to Benesova
August - As world No. 67 and No. 8 seed, reached SF at Helsinki before l. to world No. 25, No. 2 seed and eventual tournament champion Pistolesi; l. 1r to No. 17 seed Shaughnessy at US Open debut
September - Withdrew from Bali due to a right shoulder injury
October - As a world No. 65 WC, l. 1r at Linz to world No. 15 and No. 7 seed Suarez
October - As No. 2 seed, won ITF/Poitiers-FRA for fifth ITF Circuit title in 2003


Vera is ranked 278 in doubles! :)

maryjane
Nov 9th, 2003, 04:41 PM
I think it'll be an interesting year.
I think Belgians have gained a lot of confidence and experience to face the williams and in fact already in the matches they played this year we've had close matches.
For 2004 I hope in a good AO for Jen,all of us know she always plays well there except the last year but she was injured.
I really think Kim will win the first Slam:or AO or Paris.I keep my fingers crossed by now :)
I believe in a good year of Jelena Dokic:after a dark year,2004 is the year of come.Kim and Justine must have the example for her to follow to improve.
And let's put attention on Sharapova...she'll be a dangerous mine...
I've always some hopes for my love,Monica Seles.But I'm really worried they'll stay just hopes.
Moreover,let's focus on an interesting AO:
in fact,Venus is n.11 so that means she could face one of the big in the fourh round and maybe a place of the semi will be for other players not used to this result...it'll depend on the draw...who knows what will be the surprise!

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 04:43 PM
Yep....Justine made a bad mistake, that can come to hunt herself back at the Oz!

Rtael
Nov 9th, 2003, 04:45 PM
Yep....Justine made a bad mistake, that can come to hunt herself back at the Oz!


Yeah, I can't wait to see Justine hunt herself! :lol:

Paneru
Nov 9th, 2003, 04:47 PM
not even the Venus of ī00 could have beaten this Serena. The level of Serena ī02- ī03, Venus hasnīt been at that level in her career.

I completely disagree!
For Venus playing Serena has always been more mental that anything
else. I think Venus' mentality against Serena has gotten better and better as by the match scores and will continue. Venus has gotten more eager and not necessarily seeming roll-overs ala 02'W & USO.

Venus of 00' mentality was take no prisoners though you could see how it hurt her to cause Serena any discomfort.

Exactly what level is that?

right1
Nov 9th, 2003, 04:59 PM
I completely disagree!
For Venus playing Serena has always been more mental that anything
else. I think Venus' mentality against Serena has gotten better and better as by the match scores and will continue. Venus has gotten more eager and not necessarily seeming roll-overs ala 02'W & USO.

Venus of 00' mentality was take no prisoners though you could see how it hurt her to cause Serena any discomfort.

Exactly what level is that?
Kabuke you done started something now talking about Venus can beat Serena :lol: :lol: :lol:

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 05:01 PM
Yeah, I can't wait to see Justine hunt herself! :lol:

You know what Iīm talking about!

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 05:06 PM
I completely disagree!
For Venus playing Serena has always been more mental that anything
else. I think Venus' mentality against Serena has gotten better and better as by the match scores and will continue. Venus has gotten more eager and not necessarily seeming roll-overs ala 02'W & USO.

Venus of 00' mentality was take no prisoners though you could see how it hurt her to cause Serena any discomfort.

Exactly what level is that?

Or was it vice versa?! Was it that Serena had mental problems with playing Venus and that she now overcame that?!

wimbledon ī00: Serena TOTALLY and ABSOLUTELY destroys everybody through the qrtrs..then at the semiīs against Venus she canīt keep the ball in the court?!

U.S. openī01: She totally destroys Hingis and then again canīt keep the ball in court and put up a fight against Venus?!

THOSE were mental. Inī02 Serena was at a different level than ANYONE else. Venus nearly lost to Chanda and Amelie at the Open, so it ainīt like she was cruising....but the matches above of Serena, Serena was CRUISING and then fell apart against Venus.

saki
Nov 9th, 2003, 05:06 PM
Wrong....all of her hardcourts points are at Williams-dominated tournaments: San Diego( Venus), Canada( Serena), and not to forget the Open. Let me tell you: she ainīt defending those! She has improven, but the gap is still huge between beating Kim and beating a Williams.

I think you misunderstood me. I said that with Venus & Serena (and Monica & Lindsay) all healthy, she will lose some of her points. But, she won't lose all that many even if at all three tournaments she won this year on hardcourt she gets to the final and loses to one of the aforementioned players. Just because she may well not defend all three titles (and my prediction is that she'll defend one), doesn't mean that she'll lose all of her points, just some of them.

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 05:12 PM
I think you misunderstood me. I said that with Venus & Serena (and Monica & Lindsay) all healthy, she will lose some of her points. But, she won't lose all that many even if at all three tournaments she won this year on hardcourt she gets to the final and loses to one of the aforementioned players. Just because she may well not defend all three titles (and my prediction is that she'll defend one), doesn't mean that she'll lose all of her points, just some of them.

Yep....she will defend most but not all...and she wonīt defend any of those titles.

Paneru
Nov 9th, 2003, 05:13 PM
Kabuke you done started something now talking about Venus can beat Serena :lol: :lol: :lol:

Heaven forbid...! ;) :lol:

Paneru
Nov 9th, 2003, 05:36 PM
Or was it vice versa?! Was it that Serena had mental problems with playing Venus and that she now overcame that?!

THOSE were mental. Inī02 Serena was at a different level than ANYONE else. Venus nearly lost to Chanda and Amelie at the Open, so it ainīt like she was cruising....but the matches above of Serena, Serena was CRUISING and then fell apart against Venus.
Serena over came it and Venus is getting there.
Thus, I think we'll begin to see higer quality matches
and more upredictable matches as to who is going to win.

What level was it and
Venus has yet to reach it?

Venus nearly lost but didn't!
Also, giving credit to both opponents playing well.

Isn't simply speculation that Serena would automatically cruise over Venus because she did all the others? You must remember also that Venus of 00' prior to Wimbledon hadn't won a GS while watching her sister win one. Her desire was great. Just as Serena seeing her sister winning four slam titles while she hadn't won one since 99'USO. Serena's desire was great.

Take the desire of Venus 00' and Serena 02' and you'd think it would naturally produce awesome tennis. However IMO, little separates them physically but it's psycologically where things get really murky. Is the desire to win greater than the pain of denying your sister a title?

Serena had trouble with the concept of beating Venus because as Serena has said when she was younger their were two Venus' and she had to seperate herself as a whole other person, as Serena outside of Venus. She did and we see the results of that. On the other hand, I think the opposite has happened with Venus. Venus always had Serena where ever she went, it's kind of like Venus having a twin and being a sort of matriarchal figure for Serena. When Serena went through her drought Venus always praised Serena and vise versa. I've never seen an a player as happy as Venus losing to an opponent as we did in 02' at RG.
All of which called Venus' desire in to question by the media and even more so after Wimbledon and the USO where as to some it seemed as though Venus simply rolled over. IMO, all of that changed at the AO and was re-affirmed at Wimbledon.

I guess the point is that Venus could've beaten Serena but would enough desire have been there? It is moot as we will never know.
But all indications are pointing to it being a clach of the Titans as both have been out and are coming back with great desire!

I'm so excited and can't wait for their return! :)

lizchris
Nov 9th, 2003, 05:54 PM
I think Your good analysis slips up a bit when You come to the Russians,are You saying the two already in the top ten have no place there?and also I think Vera Z. has the game for a top ten place and perhaps even a slam, Her serve and movement are steadily improving[anger management still needs work]but I suppose We'll know this time next year

I didn't say that; what I said was that the only two I see challenging the top players and winning big tornamemts are Petrova and Sharapova. It was Prtrova who was the only Russian to get to a GS semifinal this year.

Again, Vera is too inconsistent at the moment to be a Slam contender, but we will see if she is in the future.

moon
Nov 9th, 2003, 05:55 PM
Kabuke you done started something now talking about Venus can beat Serena :lol: :lol: :lol:

Venus CAN beat Serena.
She has in the past and she will in the future.
She was playing the best at Wimby, and she probably would
have won, had she not reaggrivated her injury.

Venus is hungry, and IMO she will prevail in 2004.

lizchris
Nov 9th, 2003, 05:58 PM
Not a bad analysis.

With ref to Justine - I think it's pretty obvious that she'll lose some hardcourt points if and when Venus, Serena, Lindsay, Monica are playing well again but her improvement on hardcourt this year was genuine in that she's proven herself better than the rest on the surface. I don't think she'll lose as many points as you might think. And people seem to forget that she didn't win RG with none of the top players in the field, she beat Serena and Kim for the title and the Venus who was beaten by Zvonareva I think we can safely assume she'd have beaten too.

Another player to watch is, IMO, Maria Kirilenko - the only up and coming Russian with variety and strategy. She's also one of the few who isn't overly hyped and this should work to her advantage.

Justine will lost off the bat 500 bonus ponts at the Grans Slams (300 at the FO and 200 at the USO) and as the number one, she cannot get bonus points. That was why Jennifer lost her number one ranking in 2002 and Serena was on her way to losing hers this year.

Juju_fan
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:04 PM
Justine will lost off the bat 500 bonus ponts at the Grans Slams (300 at the FO and 200 at the USO) and as the number one, she cannot get bonus points. That was why Jennifer lost her number one ranking in 2002 and Serena was on her way to losing hers this year.
Still, Justine has room for improvement in the first part of 2004.
In fact, she may very well earn more than a thousand additionnal points and reach the 8,000 pts mark before the clay season begins!

lizchris
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:08 PM
Still, Justine has room for improvement in the first part of 2004.
In fact, she may very well earn more than a thousand additionnal points and reach the 8,000 pts mark before the clay season begins!

She'll have to win every tournament she enters before then and it remains to be seen if the Williams sisters will play Indian Wells and if they do, she may have trouble winning that if she has to face one of them. Same with Miami. A Williams has won that event every year since 1998, except for 2000.

harloo
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:09 PM
I think Venus will win a slam next year, and she will beat Justine and Serena while doing it.

Serena will take tennis seriously like she did in 2002, and cut out some of her activities. She will not let Justine beat her again since Justine started making it personal. Serena did not come back too quick, so her injury will be fine. However, I don't know if she will be at the same level as before. I think she will be at 70% when she returns.

Kim will stop choking when she has a good lead. She will be able to win some big matches, and she might even win a slam.

Jen will work with a different coach, but the slams still won't come.

Myskina will start becoming the upset player of the tour. Top players will have to watch out for her even more next year.

Dokic will continue to slump, but finally decide that she has to really get serious again if she want's to get back in the top 10.

Monica will come back and play and enjoy her time, but find out that it's time to leave the game. :sad: (Moncia don't leave :sad: ). She will realize that the competition is getting better, and the injury will most likely flair up again and that will determine her decision to leave.

Dementieva will get better, but won't win the big ones because of her serve. She will continue to think that she can win the big ones with her serve which is a big mistake.

Lindsay will come back ready to go, but will still suffer from lack of movement. Davenport won't win a slam again, but she will win a few tournaments. She will decide if she wants to leave tennis and have a family next year. So she may retire.

Hingis will come back and have poor results when starting out. She will not be in the top 10, but will improve her serve and start figuring out how to play the hard hitters. It will take her a while to get back in the thick of things, but she might get there again.

;)

pReUrBrIyN
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:14 PM
You missed some up and comers, mainly:
Vera Douchevina
Karolina Sprem

Both of whom jumped over 250+ spots this year in rankings.

Yes I agree with you. I'm starting to like Sprem because of you :p and your site is really good.

Good luck in 2004 Karolina :yeah:

Juju_fan
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:22 PM
She'll have to win every tournament she enters before then and it remains to be seen if the Williams sisters will play Indian Wells and if they do, she may have trouble winning that if she has to face one of them. Same with Miami. A Williams has won that event every year since 1998, except for 2000.
2003-01-06 Sydney SF Tier II 126 pts
2003-01-13 Australian Open SF Grand Slam 460 pts
2003-02-10 Antwerp SF Tier II 105 pts
2003-02-17 Dubai WON Tier II 324 pts
2003-03-17 Miami QF Tier I 101 pts


If Justine wins the Masters and all these tourneys, she will add more than 2000 pts at her current total, so she wouldn't be far from the 8,500 pts mark!
Of course, I doubt she will, but hey, who would have said that she would be undefeated in the US hardcourt summer season?
Anyway, I think Jutine WILL add points during this period, and that would mean she would be quite unreachable for the number one position till at least Wimbledon, if not the US Open...

harloo
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:23 PM
Venus CAN beat Serena.
She has in the past and she will in the future.
She was playing the best at Wimby, and she probably would
have won, had she not reaggrivated her injury.

Venus is hungry, and IMO she will prevail in 2004.


I think Venus really worked on her game for Wimbledon 2003. It showed throughout all of her matches before the finals.

However, what I notice about Venus is that it really took Serena to beat her all those times in slam finals for her to want to change her approach somewhat. Venus has said that she did not want to work with another coach or anything like that. However the improvements showed up at Wimby and she said she was hitting with someone else. It was not Serena.

People keep saying oh Venus has not won a slam in over 2 years, and they are so excited but Venus still only loses to her sister who is someone that is a practicing partner. The other top players cannot beat Venus consistently.

Both her and Serena knows each others game inside and out. But it was Serena who went to get outside help to improve certain aspects of her game. Venus will do the same.

I do feel that Venus would of won Wimbledon this year if she was not injured. Venus is improving, because she knows what she has to do. So I think next year Venus will win a slam if not 2, but Serena will be right their on her tale.

I love it, because they raise each others level up and it shifts back and forth. Venus has not answered yet, but she will answer once she figures it all out.

Venus Forever
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:29 PM
Justine will lost off the bat 500 bonus ponts at the Grans Slams (300 at the FO and 200 at the USO) and as the number one, she cannot get bonus points. That was why Jennifer lost her number one ranking in 2002 and Serena was on her way to losing hers this year.

Justine can get bonus points as #1, everyone gets bonus points.

She just doesn't have the opportunity to get the most bonus points for beating the #1 ranked player, since she is her.

If that was true, Serena would have no quality points to her ranking right now, as she hasn't yet played a match this year where she was not ranked #1. But clearly, if you check www.wtatour.com you will see that Serena has a lot of quality points.

lizchris
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:34 PM
2003-01-06 Sydney SF Tier II 126 pts
2003-01-13 Australian Open SF Grand Slam 460 pts
2003-02-10 Antwerp SF Tier II 105 pts
2003-02-17 Dubai WON Tier II 324 pts
2003-03-17 Miami QF Tier I 101 pts


If Justine wins the Masters and all these tourneys, she will add more than 2000 pts at her current total, so she wouldn't be far from the 8,500 pts mark!
Of course, I doubt she will, but hey, who would have said that she would be undefeated in the US hardcourt summer season?
Anyway, I think Jutine WILL add points during this period, and that would mean she would be quite unreachable for the number one position till at least Wimbledon, if not the US Open...

She probably will add points, but again, that remains to be seen.

She will start to lose points after the claycourt season starts becasue as I stated, she goes into the FO losing at least 300 points and she goes into the German Open losing 100, and the Family Circle Cup losing 100. The only place she can gain points is playing the Italian Open, which she has yet to win.

She was able to do well in the hardcourt season because the most dominant player on the summer hardcourt since 2000 (Venus) was not playing.

King Aaron
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:34 PM
Another player to watch is, IMO, Maria Kirilenko - the only up and coming Russian with variety and strategy. She's also one of the few who isn't overly hyped and this should work to her advantage.

Totally right. :)

Venus Forever
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:35 PM
Or was it vice versa?! Was it that Serena had mental problems with playing Venus and that she now overcame that?!

wimbledon ī00: Serena TOTALLY and ABSOLUTELY destroys everybody through the qrtrs..then at the semiīs against Venus she canīt keep the ball in the court?!

U.S. openī01: She totally destroys Hingis and then again canīt keep the ball in court and put up a fight against Venus?!

THOSE were mental. Inī02 Serena was at a different level than ANYONE else. Venus nearly lost to Chanda and Amelie at the Open, so it ainīt like she was cruising....but the matches above of Serena, Serena was CRUISING and then fell apart against Venus.

What I don't understand is why the Serena fans are so adamant to disclaim any theory about Venus having mental blockage against Serena??

Serena DEFINITELY had mental blockage in the early going, but so did Venus. Explain why Venus' level of play dropped in all of those matches she won against Serena. Yes, she won, but she was still very erratic, Serena was just more erratic.

Serena cleaned that up however, but it appears to me, that Venus hasn't changed one bit. She is just as erratic as she was when she winning. I mean, failed to play ONE good match against her sister. She may have won a few, but the quality of play from Venus was still not up to her level. This suggests to me that something is going wrong in Venus' mind as well. We're not saying Serena didn't play better, and didn't deserve the win, because she did. We're saying that there was still something prohibiting Venus from playing her 100% best mental game.

Only at Australia and Wimbledon of this year has Venus shown any sign of breaking out of this mental state against Serena.

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:36 PM
I think the two players who can earn many many points next year are Serena and Venus, specially Venus. The Belgians have been good this year, but that means defending next year and that is the hardest thing to do.

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:38 PM
What I don't understand is why the Serena fans are so adamant to disclaim any theory about Venus having mental blockage against Serena??

Serena DEFINITELY had mental blockage in the early going, but so did Venus. Explain why Venus' level of play dropped in all of those matches she won against Serena. Yes, she won, but she was still very erratic, Serena was just more erratic.

Serena cleaned that up however, but it appears to me, that Venus hasn't changed one bit. She is just as erratic as she was when she winning. I mean, failed to play ONE good match against her sister. She may have won a few, but the quality of play from Venus was still not up to her level. This suggests to me that something is going wrong in Venus' mind as well. We're not saying Serena didn't play better, and didn't deserve the win, because she did. We're saying that there was still something prohibiting Venus from playing her 100% best mental game.

Only at Australia and Wimbledon of this year has Venus shown any sign of breaking out of this mental state against Serena.

Iīm a fan of both....but it is the Venus fans who seem to act like Venus was the only one who had a mental blockage and thatīs why Serena is winning now. Just stating that Serena DID have mental issues with playing Venus too!

Juju_fan
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:38 PM
Venus and Serena can earn many points but they won't add so much before the second half of the season...

lizchris
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:39 PM
Justine can get bonus points as #1, everyone gets bonus points.

She just doesn't have the opportunity to get the most bonus points for beating the #1 ranked player, since she is her.

If that was true, Serena would have no quality points to her ranking right now, as she hasn't yet played a match this year where she was not ranked #1. But clearly, if you check www.wtatour.com you will see that Serena has a lot of quality points.

What I meant was in your second paragraph about getting the most bonus points. Justine has a lot to lose.

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:42 PM
Venus and Serena can earn many points but they won't add so much before the second half of the season...

Venus can add MANY points in the first half. Didnīt play Dubai, didnīt play Berlin NOR Rome, Amelia Island....plenty of points.

Serena can add Berlin, so they have points to earn there.

lizchris
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:45 PM
Venus can add MANY points in the first half. Didnīt play Dubai, didnīt play Berlin NOR Rome, Amelia Island....plenty of points.

Serena can add Berlin, so they have points to earn there.

Plus Venus lost in the fourth round of Miami, so she can gain points there.

AjdeNate!
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:49 PM
Yes I agree with you. I'm starting to like Sprem because of you :p and your site is really good.

Good luck in 2004 Karolina :yeah:

Cool! I recruited another one! :p Actually, thanks for saying that. It helps to know that someone pays attention to the work. There'll be a whole new revamped look for 2004. ;)

disposablehero
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:51 PM
I think the two players who can earn many many points next year are Serena and Venus, specially Venus. The Belgians have been good this year, but that means defending next year and that is the hardest thing to do.

However, its not the Belgians who spend the first 3 months defending massive points. It's the Williams.

AjdeNate!
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:51 PM
Monica can gain points in EVERY tournament she plays. :p lol

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:51 PM
Plus Venus lost in the fourth round of Miami, so she can gain points there.

Iīm tellimg you...noone is in better position for year-end no.1 right now than Venus.

harloo
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:56 PM
What I don't understand is why the Serena fans are so adamant to disclaim any theory about Venus having mental blockage against Serena??

Serena DEFINITELY had mental blockage in the early going, but so did Venus. Explain why Venus' level of play dropped in all of those matches she won against Serena. Yes, she won, but she was still very erratic, Serena was just more erratic.

Serena cleaned that up however, but it appears to me, that Venus hasn't changed one bit. She is just as erratic as she was when she winning. I mean, failed to play ONE good match against her sister. She may have won a few, but the quality of play from Venus was still not up to her level. This suggests to me that something is going wrong in Venus' mind as well. We're not saying Serena didn't play better, and didn't deserve the win, because she did. We're saying that there was still something prohibiting Venus from playing her 100% best mental game.

Only at Australia and Wimbledon of this year has Venus shown any sign of breaking out of this mental state against Serena.

IMO, the only good match between the sisters was Wimby 2002. But I do think 2002 was just Serena's year. I saw her matches at Wimby and the USO and she did not drop a set to anyone. She was just playing unbelivable during that time.

I do think that Serena's level of play was good, but the mental blockage was a factor when she played Venus. But you can say that about Serena also, because they always seem to not play so great against each other for some reason. I guess it's the fact that they are close.

Venus is in a very difficult situation when it comes to that, but she will get past it this next year.

lizchris
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:56 PM
However, its not the Belgians who spend the first 3 months defending massive points. It's the Williams.

That's true, but after then,the Belgians have a lot more to defend tham the Williams.

AjdeNate!
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:56 PM
Nobody is in a better position for year-end no.1 than whomever wins at least 2 slams.

:p

lizchris
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:58 PM
Nobody is in a better position for year-end no.1 than whomever wins at least 2 slams.

:p


Venus won two Slams each in 2000 and 2001, but she didn't end the year at number one. That was because she didn't playe enough tournametns.

AjdeNate!
Nov 9th, 2003, 06:59 PM
Venus won two Slams each in 2000 and 2001, but she didn't end the year at number one. That was because she didn't playe enough tournametns.
True, but they're be in 'better position' to get themselves to #1. ;)

disposablehero
Nov 9th, 2003, 07:00 PM
That's true, but after then,the Belgians have a lot more to defend tham the Williams.

Naturally. When you are thousands of points ahead of someone, you will eventually have more points to defend.

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 07:02 PM
However, its not the Belgians who spend the first 3 months defending massive points. It's the Williams.

Thatīs why I said for year-end rankings. After the first half, itīs all defending for the Belgians and during the summer we all know that it is Williams time and there werenīt there.

Venus has only final at Oz and Antwerp to defend...after that there is fourth round Nasdaq, warsaw final, fourth round RG, final wimbledon....contrast that to Kim or even Justine.

AjdeNate!
Nov 9th, 2003, 07:05 PM
What he means is that since the Belgies are +3000 points on them, they have some room to give.

ans
Nov 9th, 2003, 07:06 PM
The Belgians have to defend a LOT of points, indeed, but if they keep on doing well, I don't see any problem. Kim and Justine are almost 3000points ahead of Serena. That's not nothing.

maryjane
Nov 9th, 2003, 07:08 PM
Monica can gain points in EVERY tournament she plays. :p lol

ironically jelena dokic too cuz she lost or in the first or second round!!!

xcrtbckhnd
Nov 9th, 2003, 07:17 PM
Jen can probably gain a significant amount of ground by doing well at Sydney and the AO. Those 2 tournis alone might be enough to see her reach #4. Then she will have some points to defend at IW and Miami. But she could also improve her clay court season as well. I think she'll be on the move next year personally. The fields will be tough, but I think we'll see her win at 2-3 tournis next year, and hopefully do very well at the slams.
I hope Anna K can win a few matches early in the year and also play well in the slams. Her draws in 2002 were really tough, so maybe she'll have better luck in 2004.
The Russians will continue to assault the rankings and I think Sharapova is the one to watch. I like Kirilenko too, but I'm not sure she's developed the power to hang with the big girls yet. Myskina has been really impressive the past 4 months and I think she will have another good year, but probably no further than slam quarters. Ditto for Elena D. Bovina and Petrova are also ones to watch and could really be the Russians who end up in the Top 10 either with or instead of Elena D and Nastya.

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 07:20 PM
The Belgians have to defend a LOT of points, indeed, but if they keep on doing well, I don't see any problem. Kim and Justine are almost 3000points ahead of Serena. That's not nothing.

yep....itīs gonna be though to overtake them. But one if not both is bound to lose many points..Iīm not sure their will be two all-Belgian slam finals next year, so there they will lose many points already. Specially at the Open, donīt see that happening.Plus they are good on clay but they arenīt unbeatable, like the sisters are on hardcourts.

But we will see...I think if everyone is healthy, the top 4 will be Williams/ Belgians..in what order?! Donīt know. But with her injury-plagued season this year, Venus sure seems to have the inside-track for a good ranking next year.

ans
Nov 9th, 2003, 07:22 PM
yep....itīs gonna be though to overtake them. But one if not both is bound to lose many points..Iīm not sure their will be two all-Belgian slam finals next year, so there they will lose many points already. Specially at the Open, donīt see that happening.Plus they are good on clay but they arenīt unbeatable, like the sisters are on hardcourts.

But we will see...I think if everyone is healthy, the top 4 will be Williams/ Belgians..in what order?! Donīt know. But with her injury-plagued season this year, Venus sure seems to have the inside-track for a good ranking next year.

Save me from the all-Belgian finals, I'd like some next year, but once in a while a sister would be nice too.

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 07:26 PM
Save me from the all-Belgian finals, I'd like some next year, but once in a while a sister would be nice too.

Someone is getting reformed too!! ;)

ans
Nov 9th, 2003, 07:41 PM
Someone is getting reformed too!! ;)

Sorry, dear, that's always been my opinion :p

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 07:44 PM
Sorry, dear, that's always been my opinion :p

Really miss?! So we were thinking the same thing all along?! You are tired of the all-Belgians and I want Serena or Venus someone else in the finals now. Perfect!

ans
Nov 9th, 2003, 08:03 PM
Really miss?! So we were thinking the same thing all along?! You are tired of the all-Belgians and I want Serena or Venus someone else in the finals now. Perfect!

As long as Kim is in that final too...fina by me...and we're both happy.

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 08:05 PM
As long as Kim is in that final too...fina by me...and we're both happy.

hahaha....and no Justine?!

ans
Nov 9th, 2003, 08:14 PM
hahaha....and no Justine?!

If Kim doesn't play. ;)

Trish101
Nov 9th, 2003, 08:32 PM
nice artcles, good points. Jen will do well, with competition she usually rises to the accasion.

bandabou
Nov 9th, 2003, 09:25 PM
If Kim doesn't play. ;)

But Kim is first.