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alfajeffster
Nov 7th, 2003, 07:28 PM
Hypothetical (and that's all it can ever be), but how do you think the following all-time greats would fare against each other, given they play at the peak of their power and performance AND with the same size racquet (notice that this has nothing to do with composite). Who would win the most matches in a round-robin?

Steffi Graf
Margaret Court
Martina Navratilova
Billie Jean King
Althea Gibson
Chris Evert
Helen Wills Moody
Maureen Connolly
Monica Seles
Serena Williams

DA FOREHAND
Nov 7th, 2003, 07:31 PM
SURFACE FOR surface Steffi Graf is the best. And she played w/an 85 sq. inch head.

bandabou
Nov 7th, 2003, 07:33 PM
Hmm..difficult question. Thatīd be a HECK of a round robin.

Linzi
Nov 7th, 2003, 07:34 PM
Hmm..difficult question. Thatīd be a HECK of a round robin.
Followed closely by this yrs draw...

faboozadoo15
Nov 7th, 2003, 07:39 PM
well what is the size of the racquet they all play with??? if it's over 100 sq in, monica or serena would win the most matches for sure...

bandabou
Nov 7th, 2003, 07:39 PM
But I still feel honored that my fav is in that draw at such a young age already!! I think on grass and hardcourts Serena would give all the others a HECK of a time and would be competitive on clay as well.

faboozadoo15
Nov 7th, 2003, 07:43 PM
LOL!!! is that list supposed to be in descending order???

DA FOREHAND
Nov 7th, 2003, 07:48 PM
But I still feel honored that my fav is in that draw at such a young age already!! I think on grass and hardcourts Serena would give all the others a HECK of a time and would be competitive on clay as well.


I think that would depend...especially on grass, Serena isn't the most patient player, and spin and slice give her fits.

Fingon
Nov 7th, 2003, 07:49 PM
Let's put it this way.

Gengis Khan was considered one of the best military commanders of all times, maybe the best.

The Mongols in the period they dominated Asia were virtually unbeatable.

However, if you could bring Gengis Khan and his army to present time (and even way into the past), just a small group of soldiers, poorly trained with modern weapons would decimate them in minutes. Times change.

Does it mean that modern armies are better than the Mongols? in absolute terms Yes, they would defeat them without a doubt, in relative terms, no.

Can you pair them, NO, that's absurd.

Would the mongols be as effective as they were in the past if the lived today? who knows? that's speculation.

As everything else, tennis has evolved, players now are faster, stronger, there are different standards, different technologies, for racquets, balls and training, there is more experience, it's accessible to a larger number of people, it's subject to a closer scrutiny by media and fans.

So, you can't guess who would win between Serena Williams and Margaret Court. if you have a young Margaret Court at her best and Serena at her best, I can tell you, Serena would probably double bagel her. Now, would Margaret adapt her game to current times? possibly, but speculating on that would be like to say, who would win between Serena and Justine if Justine had a Serena's type body.

So, as a game it's ok, but it's not a technical analysis, it's just that, a game.

alfajeffster
Nov 7th, 2003, 07:58 PM
well what is the size of the racquet they all play with??? if it's over 100 sq in, monica or serena would win the most matches for sure...

The rule is it doesn't matter what size, so long as both players are using the same size. i.e., Margaret Court plays Steffi Graf with an 85 square inch graphite racquet, who would win that match? That could also be Margaret Court plays Steffi Graf with a 62 square inch wood racquet.

bandabou
Nov 7th, 2003, 07:59 PM
I think that would depend...especially on grass, Serena isn't the most patient player, and spin and slice give her fits.

I didnīt say she would win easily...but that she would be extremely though to defeat. She has at least a top 3/4 serve, return, athletiscism, speed....all good things on fast surfaces and of course power.

alfajeffster
Nov 7th, 2003, 08:03 PM
So, as a game it's ok, but it's not a technical analysis, it's just that, a game.

Hence the word "hypothetical" in the subject line. Good analysis with the Mongol warriors, however, it is possible to think that Margaret Court at her peak ability (26-28 years old) versus Serena Williams at her yet to be reached peak (imo) with both players on a grass court with the same size racquet, it'd be a tough match to say Serena would win that easily. I doubt it.

By the way, Ghengis Khan's military mind is an ageless source of inspiration for military tacticians to this day. Give him the same weapons and training, and he'd rule the world- again.

bandabou
Nov 7th, 2003, 08:06 PM
Hence the word "hypothetical" in the subject line. Good analysis with the Mongol warriors, however, it is possible to think that Margaret Court at her peak ability (26-28 years old) versus Serena Williams at her yet to be reached peak (imo) with both players on a grass court with the same size racquet, it'd be a tough match to say Serena would win that easily. I doubt it.

By the way, Ghengis Khan's military mind is an ageless source of inspiration for military tacticians to this day. Give him the same weapons and training, and he'd rule the world- again.

Thatīs the scary part! Thereīs a great chance that we havenīt even seen Serenaīs peak yet!

Serena wouldnīt win easily, but neither would Margaret.

beckermeister
Nov 7th, 2003, 08:14 PM
In individual sports, players generally get bigger, stronger, faster and are trained better. Therefore of your list:

1: Serena - simply the best -power, speed, serve, mind. (volley's..well)
2. Venus - not quite up to Serena
3. Seles- all around power - but no Williams mobility
4. Graf- super athlete but the backhand would hold her back on hardcourts
5. Martina N- great athlete as well, groundstrokes don't compare to other 4 but would be somewhat effective with her net game although today's game is not friendly to net players.

The others, I believe would have a hard time competing even if they were using today's racquets.

If u wanted to make things closer, make them play on grass. That would give Graf and Martina N a better chance and could make for some interesting battles to watch :) - Still take Serena though..

alfajeffster
Nov 7th, 2003, 08:21 PM
Thatīs the scary part! Thereīs a great chance that we havenīt even seen Serenaīs peak yet!

Serena wouldnīt win easily, but neither would Margaret.

Actually, I think Serena would have trouble with a smaller frame, whereas, Margaret would only be that much better with a big snowshoe like Serena uses. Margaret Court had the toughest first serve of her era (with the possible exception of Virginia Wade), and she could average (with a small frame mind you) upwards of 90mph on the first serve, sometimes even harder. With an oversized graphite composite in her hand, it's safe to say you can add another 10-15 mph and that's right up there with both Williams sisters. Racquet size has had a major effect on the women's game- much more so than the men's, and especially in the serve.

bandabou
Nov 7th, 2003, 08:27 PM
Actually, I think Serena would have trouble with a smaller frame, whereas, Margaret would only be that much better with a big snowshoe like Serena uses. Margaret Court had the toughest first serve of her era (with the possible exception of Virginia Wade), and she could average (with a small frame mind you) upwards of 90mph on the first serve, sometimes even harder. With an oversized graphite composite in her hand, it's safe to say you can add another 10-15 mph and that's right up there with both Williams sisters. Racquet size has had a major effect on the women's game- much more so than the men's, and especially in the serve.

Big snowshoe, huh?! I think Serena would have faired well regardless of raquet. Itīs about adapting....

Serenaīs serve is good because of technique, so she would have had a great serve regardless of what racquet she uses. Thatīs the corner-stone of Serenaīs game. If her serve is working, she is very though to beat.

I think they would have been pretty close matched..

DA FOREHAND
Nov 7th, 2003, 08:27 PM
Steffi Graf
Margaret Court
Martina Navratilova
Billie Jean King
Althea Gibson
Chris Evert
Helen Wills Moody
Maureen Connolly
Monica Seles
Serena Williams

__________________

Grass

Martina
Steffi
Serena

Clay

Evert
Steffi
Monica(smaller racquet head would hinder her game)

Carpet

Martina
Steffi
BJK

Rebound Ace

Monica
Steffi
Chris

Hardcourt

Serena
Steffi
Monica

bandabou
Nov 7th, 2003, 08:33 PM
Good list, but on clay Monica would still be better than Graf.

alfajeffster
Nov 7th, 2003, 08:38 PM
One major factor to take into consideration is the foot service rule. Prior to 1973, the players had to maintain at least one foot on the ground throughout the service motion. This means if you jumped off the court (as nearly all players do now), it was a fault. Now imagine Serena Williams with a standard frame required to keep one foot on the court during her service, and you get the picture...

faboozadoo15
Nov 7th, 2003, 08:41 PM
monica would even be better than evert on clay... tis where she beat her in 89 when she was 15... i know chrissy was not at her best, but monica came A LONG way after that...

bandabou
Nov 7th, 2003, 08:59 PM
One major factor to take into consideration is the foot service rule. Prior to 1973, the players had to maintain at least one foot on the ground throughout the service motion. This means if you jumped off the court (as nearly all players do now), it was a fault. Now imagine Serena Williams with a standard frame required to keep one foot on the court during her service, and you get the picture...

Again it is called: adapting!! If sheīd to play like that from the beginning, Serena would have adapted to that....the more you come with this kind of stuff, the more sense-less it gets to compare eraīs.

CondiLicious
Nov 7th, 2003, 10:29 PM
Monica
Martina
Steffi

Sam L
Nov 7th, 2003, 10:44 PM
Helen Wills Moody

7~ŒLęV3ņ―
Nov 8th, 2003, 04:02 PM
Serena n Steffi would be tie in all surfaces... with serena winnn most of their meetings...