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lizchris
Nov 6th, 2003, 04:52 AM
She, Mary Joe and Cliff were talking about who were better players, the Williams sisters or the Belgians, Kim and Justine. Mary Joe and Cliff agreed that the Williams sisters, when healthy, are hard to beat. Pam said that she believed that Kim and Justine were better than Venus because since 2001, Venus has not won a major (neither has Kim), while Justine has won two. She also pointed out that Venus has not won as many titles as Kim and Justine in that time. If I am not mistaken, from 2001-2003, Venus has won 14 titles, including two majors. I don't Kim and Justine have that many titles wins during that time.

Lita's Ex
Nov 6th, 2003, 04:59 AM
Sticks and stones...

Pam's just doing what she gets paid to do. And somebody's got to be the wrench thrower. ;)

I miss my girls but I really do wish that they'd talk about the players who are actually at the YEC. Pam and company may not be enthusiastic about those who qualified but they could at least have the decency to feign some sort of interest.

disposablehero
Nov 6th, 2003, 05:12 AM
If I am not mistaken, from 2001-2003, Venus has won 14 titles, including two majors. I don't Kim and Justine have that many titles wins during that time.

15 for Kim, 14 for Venus, 12 for Justine.

Instant
Nov 6th, 2003, 05:16 AM
IMHO, I think Pam is right.

lizchris
Nov 6th, 2003, 05:21 AM
I wish that Pam could explain how is it since 2001 that Venus' H2H against the both of them is 12-3?

UDiTY
Nov 6th, 2003, 05:26 AM
Venus won 7 titles in 2002 out of 16 played(44% winning percentage)

Kim has won so far 8 titles in 2003 out of 20 played(40% winning percentage)

Justine has played 17 tournies this year and won 8(47% winning percentage)

I don't see how Pam can say she has been in a slump the last year and a half, it's really only been since her injury. She played 3 tournaments before her injury winning one(beating Kim), getting to the Finals of the AO, and getting upset by Meghann...really an injury plagued year for Venus, not a slumping one. :rolleyes:

Instant
Nov 6th, 2003, 05:27 AM
I think you need to look at why you are getting so heated up over one persons opinion. it's no big deal and doesn't deserve the attention it is getting.

lizchris
Nov 6th, 2003, 05:36 AM
I think you need to look at why you are getting so heated up over one persons opinion. it's no big deal and doesn't deserve the attention it is getting.

It's not a question of getting heated up, but whether she has some sort of bias against Venus. She has nothing good to say about her, even when she is playing well. In addition, if Kim is better than Venus, how come Venus has more GS singles titles on her mantel than Kim?

Instant
Nov 6th, 2003, 05:51 AM
Just because she states an opinion that doesn't match your own, doesn't mean she has some sort of Bias.

You cannot look at what Venus done 2 years ago, it just doesn't count anymore.

I think it was Hingis who said that it takes being away from the tour for only a month and you can notice subtle improvements in the top players when you return.

I believe that Venus's best is not good enough to beat Justine or to a lesser extent Kim at this time. When Venus has been back on the tour for 6 months though, her best may well be better then what it is now, so it may very well change. Until then, I agree with Pam.

jellybelly
Nov 6th, 2003, 05:57 AM
please Pam is a double standard bearer :rolleyes:

How rude :mad:

Serena would attack her so much that she would be dancing in the clouds :)

lizchris
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:04 AM
Instant, she was the one who brought up Venus' reusltss from 2001, not me, so try to get it straight.

Facts are faacts and these are the facts:

Venus has more Grand Slam titles than Kim and Justine combined.
Venus has a 5-2 record against Kim.
Venus has a 7-1 record against Justine.
Venus had a prefect winning percentage against Kim and Justine in 2003
Venus has more career titles than Kim and Justine
By the time, Venus was 20 (Kim's age) and 21 (Jusitne's age), she had better career results.

Trish101
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:05 AM
didnt i say williams posters are touchy? You all just helped prove my point, Mary Joe knows what shes talking about, its her job to know, id believe her before id belive any of you "know it alls" william posters, GET OVER YOURSELVES

tennisIlove09
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:06 AM
didnt i say williams posters are touchy? You all just helped prove my point, Mary Joe knows what shes talking about, its her job to know, id believe her before id belive any of you "know it alls" william posters, GET OVER YOURSELVES

:sad: yes Trish

Knizzle
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:07 AM
didnt i say williams posters are touchy? You all just helped prove my point, Mary Joe knows what shes talking about, its her job to know, id believe her before id belive any of you "know it alls" william posters, GET OVER YOURSELVES

Yes and Mary Joe said that Venus' tennis at her best was better than either Belgian.

tennisIlove09
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:08 AM
it's hard to say who's better RIGHT now, because Venus hasn't played in 6 months.

I'm willing to bet a lot of money though that San Diego, New Haven, and probably US Open would have a different champion right now if Venus wasn't injured. She's just better on hardcourts, especially in the summer, then anyone else--with exception to Serena (although Summer hard courts, Venus is better)

Trish101
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:16 AM
New Haven? ha! Jen played too well that week for venus to even touch her, she bashed Davy into the ground like Davy was a ruber chew toy...and Davies injury only affected her because she was trying to run down all of jens forhands, and in the end she re-injured herself....Venus would have faired no better, a 100% Jen is a better than a 95% healthy/rusty Venus.

Knizzle
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:19 AM
New Haven? ha! Jen played too well that week for venus to even touch her, she bashed Davy into the ground like Davy was a ruber chew toy...and Davies injury only affected her because she was trying to run down all of jens forhands, and in the end she re-injured herself....Venus would have faired no better, a 100% Jen is a better than a 95% healthy/rusty Venus.

You're nuts.

tennisIlove09
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:20 AM
New Haven? ha! Jen played too well that week for venus to even touch her, she bashed Davy into the ground like Davy was a ruber chew toy...and Davies injury only affected her because she was trying to run down all of jens forhands, and in the end she re-injured herself....Venus would have faired no better, a 100% Jen is a better than a 95% healthy/rusty Venus.

Again, it's hard to say. Jen played well, but against the two players that it MATTERED against, she got the retirements.

The closest we've seen to 100% Jen vs. 95% Venus is 2001 US Open. Remember, Venus had the cold/viral infection. Venus won 6-4 6-2

And keep in mind that Venus has NEVER lost in New Haven! NEVER! That includes a win over Capriati, during Capriati's best season 2001. 6-4 7-6

lizchris
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:23 AM
That's why Venus is still undefeated against Jennifer and I don't htink that will change anytime soon.

gweeny
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:24 AM
Pam has always had an agenda against the WS. In all honesty, no one can gauge if the Belgians are better than Venus. I honestly, don't think so, but everyone seems to believe that Justine has improved so immensely that no one except maybe Serena can beat her.
I can't wait till next year. Stupid theories by Pam will be validated or discredited.

Go Venus, Go Serena.

Jericho
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:24 AM
New Haven? ha! Jen played too well that week for venus to even touch her, she bashed Davy into the ground like Davy was a ruber chew toy...and Davies injury only affected her because she was trying to run down all of jens forhands, and in the end she re-injured herself....Venus would have faired no better, a 100% Jen is a better than a 95% healthy/rusty Venus.

Yeah so well that she was taken to 3 sets by Bovina and Pistolesi...and both Mauresmo and Davenport retired because of injury...played well my ass!!! :tape:

Just be quiet before you sound anymore foolish (if thats even possible) :rolleyes:

tennisluver99
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:24 AM
New Haven? ha! Jen played too well that week for venus to even touch her, she bashed Davy into the ground like Davy was a ruber chew toy...and Davies injury only affected her because she was trying to run down all of jens forhands, and in the end she re-injured herself....Venus would have faired no better, a 100% Jen is a better than a 95% healthy/rusty Venus.


God, you're retarded. You really are.

persond
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:27 AM
Just because she states an opinion that doesn't match your own, doesn't mean she has some sort of Bias.

You cannot look at what Venus done 2 years ago, it just doesn't count anymore.

True, but, Venus has been injured and was the finalist in 5 majors...!!! And, has been previously stated, Venus has WON major titles...!!!

I think it was Hingis who said that it takes being away from the tour for only a month and you can notice subtle improvements in the top players when you return.


Whenever the Sisters have come back from long injury layoffs, they have done well, in fact, they've come off injuries and won tourneys...!!!


I believe that Venus's best is not good enough to beat Justine or to a lesser extent Kim at this time. When Venus has been back on the tour for 6 months though, her best may well be better then what it is now, so it may very well change. Until then, I agree with Pam.

Kim couldn't beat an injured Venus at Wimby, and you have the audacity to say Kim is better...??? Furthermore, Venus' head2head is better against both Kim and Justine...so we don't need to wait six months...!!! The only thing appropriate to say is that Kim and Justine's year has been better than Venus', and you'd get no argument...It's just that Venus' year has been plagued with injury. And, Kim and Justine play twice as many tournaments as Venus...!!!

What gets me is that alot of you folks are quick to point out how many finals a player made during a year, and seem to count that as a very successful year. Except, now that it's Venus', and all of a sudden reaching the finals of a tournament means absolutely phucking nothing...!!! Talk about obvious double standards...!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Trish101
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:36 AM
you people need to have therapy. thats all im saying. Dont talk about Jenny shes too good for all of you, yoiu can continue talking about those sisters williams, you all deserv to sleep in the same godamn bed, its sick. yall are like lesbians, the way yall drool over those two, its discusting.

theres a diff between admiring someone and stalking them, tennisluva you are a stalker.

persond
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:38 AM
didnt i say williams posters are touchy? You all just helped prove my point, Mary Joe knows what shes talking about, its her job to know, id believe her before id belive any of you "know it alls" william posters, GET OVER YOURSELVES


Trish, why are you here stirring up shit...??? Is shit your middle name...??? The Williams' fan are no more touchy than the other fan base that frequent this board, Jennifer's included...!!! We just disagree with what Pam said, and MaryJo and Cliff disagreed with Pam as well, so what's your beef...???...!!!...??? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

persond
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:39 AM
you people need to have therapy. thats all im saying. Dont talk about Jenny shes too good for all of you, yoiu can continue talking about those sisters williams, you all deserv to sleep in the same godamn bed, its sick. yall are like lesbians, the way yall drool over those two, its discusting.

theres a diff between admiring someone and stalking them, tennisluva you are a stalker.


Trish, my dear, A mind's a terrible thing to waste...!!! :angel: :angel:

Trish101
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:39 AM
^^^=touchy, take a chill pill, dont act so desperate, its cheap.

per4ever
Nov 6th, 2003, 07:20 AM
Facts are faacts and these are the facts:

Venus has more Grand Slam titles than Kim and Justine combined.
Venus has a 5-2 record against Kim.
Venus has a 7-1 record against Justine.
Venus had a prefect winning percentage against Kim and Justine in 2003
Venus has more career titles than Kim and Justine
By the time, Venus was 20 (Kim's age) and 21 (Jusitne's age), she had better career results.

Very nice facts, but facts are past, we are in the present now :) You have to look how strong they are now, not if they have nice H2H.

tfannis
Nov 6th, 2003, 07:27 AM
Very nice facts, but facts are past, we are in the present now :) You have to look how strong they are now, not if they have nice H2H.

True lol...we could all start reasoning like you guys do and conclude Martina Navratilova is better than The Williamses and the Belgians all together :)

Ow and speaking of Belgians...doesn't have Dominique Monami-(ex-Van Roost) a lead in her H2H against a Williams? I believe so...ha! Belgians are better than the Williamses ;)

persond
Nov 6th, 2003, 07:32 AM
True lol...we could all start reasoning like you guys do and conclude Martina Navratilova is better than The Williamses and the Belgians all together :)

Ow and speaking of Belgians...doesn't have Dominique Monami-(ex-Van Roost) a lead in her H2H against a Williams? I believe so...ha! Belgians are better than the Williamses ;)


Hey, just wait and see...when the Sisters return, I'll ressurect this thread and offer you up a heaping bowl of "crow"...!!! Now laugh your asses about that...!!! :kiss: :kiss:

tfannis
Nov 6th, 2003, 07:39 AM
Hey, just wait and see...when the Sisters return, I'll ressurect this thread and offer you up a heaping bowl of "crow"...!!! Now laugh your asses about that...!!! :kiss: :kiss:

Next year this year will be the past ;) Seasons before this one are great statistics but are not a reference to the best players of the present :) Both Belgians had a better year than Venus so I don't see why Pam can't say they're better right now :tape:

Knizzle
Nov 6th, 2003, 07:54 AM
Next year this year will be the past ;) Seasons before this one are great statistics but are not a reference to the best players of the present :) Both Belgians had a better year than Venus so I don't see why Pam can't say they're better right now :tape:

As far as Henin goes, Pam said she was flat out BETTER than Venus. Not just for now. That's saying a little much.

Instant
Nov 6th, 2003, 07:56 AM
As far as Henin goes, Pam said she was flat out BETTER than Venus. Not just for now. That's saying a little much.

Pam has got it right :)

Knizzle
Nov 6th, 2003, 08:23 AM
Pam has got it right :)

Justine doesn't think so.

Dizzy Miss Lizzy
Nov 6th, 2003, 08:31 AM
Wasn't Shriver Venus mentor in the past?

Knizzle
Nov 6th, 2003, 08:47 AM
Wasn't Shriver Venus mentor in the past?

Yes she was.

Lady
Nov 6th, 2003, 09:12 AM
Actually I'm so tired of all these comparisons (sp??)

I'm looking forward for AusOpen, where we'll see who will be better at that moment.
And if it's Serena & Venus, I'm sure it will only motivate Justine to work harder.
She knows that WS are considered the best, & wants to beat them more consistently to be the best herself :) That's all I ask from her

And I watched Venus/Martina 2000 US Open semi again, & wonder how this great player could lost to Serena 5 times in a row :sad: Of course Serena is the best, but 5 times :sad:

Kart
Nov 6th, 2003, 10:17 AM
Pam used to be Venus' mentor didn't she ? I think they get along just fine. Pam is entitled to her own opinion even if it's rather debatable in this case.

tennisjam
Nov 6th, 2003, 11:21 AM
:rolleyes:

nothing like this can be said before Venus' and Serena's comeback... :o

best best better
Nov 6th, 2003, 11:31 AM
If I may say, and I don't think anyone's really hit on this, the "air of invincibility" that surrounded Venus in 2000, 2001 has gone and has been going since March/April time 2002 imo.

Of course Venus is still going to be very very tough for anyone to beat - including Serena - but I think that Venus' flaws are i) more glaring than Serena's ii) more damaging to her ability to win big tournaments than Serena's, and ii) more full stop.

In my opinion, Venus' first serve and speed agility around the court have gotten her out of many matches that she probably should have lost in the past couple of years.

I would probably say that Venus was the equal of Kim and Justine (putting them all a fair way behind Serena when fit). However Venus still seems to hold a big psychological advantage over Justine. Will be very interesting to see what happens the next time they play!

casanovalover
Nov 6th, 2003, 11:36 AM
i think i know the answer: pam hates her hair and wishes it was like venus. usually women only fight about things like hair and make up because they are catty except patty (i am clever)

bandabou
Nov 6th, 2003, 11:36 AM
The Belgians had a better year, but Venus has still beaten them in their best year.

Paneru
Nov 6th, 2003, 11:44 AM
It's not that big a deal, Shriver is notorious for putting her foot in her mouth. Besides, Cliff and MaryJo came to the rescue!

I don't care how much they've improved, Venus is still better.
I also find it interesting that the bulk of "improvement" came after
Wimbledon. Serena dispatched Heinin-Hardenne easily and an ailing Venus crushed Clijsters in the third set!

IMO, Venus is stronger, faster, and more metally savy that either.
Kim is known for choking and Justine doesn't like to play Venus.
As she said, Venus' lack of emotional expression on the court is hard to deal with.

Venus is better and will prove it once she returns.
V/K- 5/2(one came as a ret. due to injury for Venus)
V/J- 7/1(only loss on clay and the first time ever playing her)

It's interesting that while Venus is down and her opponents rise and all of the sudden they are better, wonder why? ;)
Could it be because she's gone as well as her sister who are the best players on the tour....hmm? :angel:

Andrew.
Nov 6th, 2003, 11:48 AM
Pam corrected herself and said something like "especially Justine is better than Venus". She thinks that Justine is better than Venus, and she probably puts Venus and Kim in the same boat. Just look at the results. Is she better than Serena? It depends on the surface. I think on rebound ace and on clay, Jutine is the player. But on grass and hardcourt, it's Serena. But Pam made a point - there is no question that Justine will give Venus a challenge on all surfaces upon her return...

bandabou
Nov 6th, 2003, 12:14 PM
And what challenge is that?! Justine doesn´t do anything that Venus can´t do better.

Paneru
Nov 6th, 2003, 12:18 PM
Pam corrected herself and said something like "especially Justine is better than Venus". She thinks that Justine is better than Venus, and she probably puts Venus and Kim in the same boat. Just look at the results. Is she better than Serena? It depends on the surface. I think on rebound ace and on clay, Jutine is the player. But on grass and hardcourt, it's Serena. But Pam made a point - there is no question that Justine will give Venus a challenge on all surfaces upon her return...

Sure, she can give Venus a challenge and no one denies that but,
she is certainly not better than Venus. I also find it interesting that with Venus having this injury to deal with since Warsaw wasn't made a more significant point. If she's injured and they aren't, ofcourse they'll get a chance to have better results. Also, they've not played anyone of Venus' caliber since Wimbledon and the bulk of especially Henin-Hardenne's titles came after both sisters were out. Venus hasn't lost to Henin-Hardenne since 01' and no matter how much she's imporved I still maintain thatt a healthy Venus can easily take her out and even an injured Venus is enough to take Clijsters out.

IMO, nothing but sheer speculation and leave it up to Shriver to do it.
Venus has not be able to take on these so-called "improved" Belgians to show her skills and see just how much they've improved and yet Shriver tries to say they are better, please! :rolleyes:

Can't wait for Venus to come back!
BTW, I find it funny that even whenever Shriver is praising Venus she usually gets in an underhanded dig! ;) Glad MaryJo and especially Cliff put her in her place. :devil:

pigam
Nov 6th, 2003, 12:19 PM
Please (or shall I say pluuuuuuze chil' ;) ) This is another redicuous thread. We simply don't know. And neither does pam. She has an opinion. Ok, that's her opinion. Justine improved immensly this year, but Venus (and Serena) where always a level above the others. I do believe the gap i getting smaller, but...
Pierre-Yves (who knows Justine ('s game) pretty well, and who has seen Venus and Serena a lot more times then either of us, says in an interview that: " Intrinsically both WS are still better then Justine (now) but she is working hard to try and become as good/better... "
Now, veryone believes what he/she wants. Why create such 'drama' ?

jenny161185
Nov 6th, 2003, 12:20 PM
i agree justine is closet to serena

kim4eva
Nov 6th, 2003, 12:21 PM
Pam corrected herself and said something like "especially Justine is better than Venus". She thinks that Justine is better than Venus, and she probably puts Venus and Kim in the same boat. Just look at the results. Is she better than Serena? It depends on the surface. I think on rebound ace and on clay, Jutine is the player. But on grass and hardcourt, it's Serena. But Pam made a point - there is no question that Justine will give Venus a challenge on all surfaces upon her return...

I always thought Pam has a huge bias about Justine's better than anyone :o ...and this she proved she does. :(

per4ever
Nov 6th, 2003, 12:24 PM
seems like many of you don't respect someone's opinion :rolleyes:

If that's her opinion, why react then?? No, it seems like everyone has to agree with the williamsfans and all have to claim that Venus and Serena are the best players. jeez

bandabou
Nov 6th, 2003, 12:27 PM
Well, we´ll see when Vee and Ree return to the field.....but then we´ll hear the talk that it is boring this and that...

CJ07
Nov 6th, 2003, 12:47 PM
all I'm going to say is this

Kim Clijsters said that Venus and Serena were the best

Justine Henin said that Venus and Serena were the best AND that SHE CANT BEAT THEM ON THE FAST SURFACES

This was about a month or two

I repeat, "I WONT BEAT THEM ON FAST SURFACES"

And at the FO, Serena was 5 points from that match, and Venus is a better clay courter than Serena is.

Soo...where Shriver gets this from is beyond me.

Obviously they've improved, but do we think that Venus is just sitting around knitting? Please. Venus will come back and beat both their behinds AGAIN just like she did in her injury plagued "slump"

rikvanlooy
Nov 6th, 2003, 12:52 PM
seems like many of you don't respect someone's opinion :rolleyes:

If that's her opinion, why react then?? No, it seems like everyone has to agree with the williamsfans and all have to claim that Venus and Serena are the best players. jeez

Eddy Merckx is/was beter dan Lance Armstrong. :p

:wavey:

Het is ook maar een opinie.

Maar ik moet toegeven dat ik mij toch ook zou pissig gedragen als iemand anders het tegendeel zou beweren.

lizchris
Nov 6th, 2003, 12:55 PM
Very nice facts, but facts are past, we are in the present now :) You have to look how strong they are now, not if they have nice H2H.

2003 is the present and I still don't see where Kim or Justine beat Venus this year. Do you?

lizchris
Nov 6th, 2003, 12:57 PM
Please (or shall I say pluuuuuuze chil' ;) ) This is another redicuous thread. We simply don't know. And neither does pam. She has an opinion. Ok, that's her opinion. Justine improved immensly this year, but Venus (and Serena) where always a level above the others. I do believe the gap i getting smaller, but...
Pierre-Yves (who knows Justine ('s game) pretty well, and who has seen Venus and Serena a lot more times then either of us, says in an interview that: " Intrinsically both WS are still better then Justine (now) but she is working hard to try and become as good/better... "
Now, veryone believes what he/she wants. Why create such 'drama' ?

There are two other threads on this subject, so it must not be that ridculous.

If you thought this thread was so ridiculous, then why did you post here?

rikvanlooy
Nov 6th, 2003, 01:05 PM
And at the FO, Serena was 5 points from that match

Well, Kim had MP's against Serena at the Aus Open.

This doesn't mean anything.

BTW : it was 6 points, not 5 points (she was leading 30-0)

bandabou
Nov 6th, 2003, 01:07 PM
whatever. Pam can say whatever she wants....the players know the what REALLY is going on.

pigam
Nov 6th, 2003, 01:14 PM
If you thought this thread was so ridiculous, then why did you post here?
Sure, If there are 2 more subjects, than it isn't ridiculous :rolleyes:

Cuz I wanted to give you my opinion: "this thread is ridiculous." :wavey:

Kim_for_number_1
Nov 6th, 2003, 01:14 PM
i hate these comparisons! who cares? everyone should have a right to have their own opinion, even though it seems wrong... everyone thinks his or her fave is the best.

G_Slammed
Nov 6th, 2003, 01:32 PM
Cliff pointed out that regardless of how well the Belgians are performing, improving, winning right now, the Williams are the players who own the last word on a tennis court.

Pam took it off topic. Couldn't stand to hear that. So she tried to change the subject. You notice how Cliff didn't say a word.. just allowed her to yammer on about... whatevea.

Cliff was talking about who had the superior game between the Williams/Belgians... and keeps provin' it.


After Pammy had come up for some air (shutup for 15 secs.), Mary Joe interjected with.. "Pam, I think Cliff was talking gamewise, Venus is better."

She had no rebuttal for that. Just a goofball sounding... "Well...Yeah.."

bandabou
Nov 6th, 2003, 01:42 PM
Cliff pointed out that regardless of how well the Belgians are performing, improving, winning right now, the Williams are the players who own the last word on a tennis court.

Pam took it off topic. Couldn't stand to hear that. So she tried to change the subject. You notice how Cliff didn't say a word.. just allowed her to yammer on about... whatevea.

Cliff was talking about who had the superior game between the Williams/Belgians... and keeps provin' it.


After Pammy had come up for some air (shutup for 15 secs.), Mary Joe interjected with.. "Pam, I think Cliff was talking gamewise, Venus is better."

She had no rebuttal for that. Just a goofball sounding... "Well...Yeah.."


DANG! That´s what they call: Blablazo!!

WF4EVER
Nov 6th, 2003, 01:44 PM
I don't think I've heard anyone yet say that Pam shouldn't express her opinion. This whole argument seems to be about who agrees or disagrees with what she said.

Frankly I'm ROTFLMFAO! And with my keyboard in hand, too!

Pigam was right about one thing we can't know how Justine gages against Venus since her improvement because she hasn't played her, and that's fine.

What is so damn funny is comparing the Venus with her almost thirty titles, including 4 GS and 5 GS Finals in a row to Justine who has only bloomed in her absence. And had Venus lost any of those Finals to another player I would have been concerned but to lose five times to your sister seems........well, intentional.

Another thing I found hilarious was the notion that Jennifer Capriati was unstoppable at New Haven and would have beaten Venus has she been healthy enough to play. Now that's just putting the CRAP in Crapriati! Really!

I don't want to get carried away here. When healthy and focused Venus and Serena Williams are the best players in the world! Period. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just wishful thinking or not thinking at all.

I applaud Justine's accomplishments in their absence and I'm really happy she was able to do that, whether they were there or not. IMO it doesn't lessen her achievements because they were MIA. I think it's great what she has been able to do and I think she deserves to end this year as No. 1 because of it. I really really applaud her.

But to compare Justine now to Venus would have to be, in all fairness, to the Venus before her injury and there is no comparison. Justine is scared of Venus. Period. I like Justine but that is the truth. And I sincerely hope her achievements this year will give her the edge she needs to reduce that fear, but after her embarrasing upset of Venus at Berlin 2001, Venus has completely shut her out, winning 7 matches in a row!

She can play mind games with Serena but Venus will have none of that and it leaves Justine wondering and wandering when she plays her because she doesn't know what's coming from the other side of the net.

As for Jennifer, well, the 4-0 H2H says it all. Someone mentioned Venus beating her at New Haven in 2001 when she was supposedly at her best, not to mention that Venus was playing like shit. I was really annoyed at all her unforced errors that match. Then at the USO, Venus demoralized her with a cold. Come on!

There's no telling what future matches will be between these top players so one can only speculate but when we're dealing with the stats we have to be honest and realistic, and Venus has shown that she is better than Kim, Justine and Jennifer. As for Serena, that's a no-brainer. When Serena is focused she's like a steamroller.

I look forward to seeing these players match up again because only then can we know where everyone is in their game. It's impossible to compare a player who has several months of action and success against a person who's been doing public appearances and fashion shows. Like apples and oranges, lol.

lizchris
Nov 6th, 2003, 01:48 PM
Get over yourself, if you don't agree with Shriver, just don't agree and move on. Who said you always have to agree with what commentators say?

Why don't you get over yourself? Some of us are just debating what she said. She has a right to make an opinion and I have a right to disagree with her and debate it with other people. Got it?

lizchris
Nov 6th, 2003, 01:50 PM
Sure, If there are 2 more subjects, than it isn't ridiculous :rolleyes:

Cuz I wanted to give you my opinion: "this thread is ridiculous." :wavey:

Well here's mine:

You're ridiculous to post in a thread that is ridiculous. Why waste your time? I wouldn't and don't when I see threads that I think are not worth my time.

lizchris
Nov 6th, 2003, 01:53 PM
And I have the right to say "get over yourself", that's just my opinion. You don't have to agree with me... Got it?

When you start a sentence stating why don't you get over yourself, you are not stating an opinion, you are asking a question.

lizchris
Nov 6th, 2003, 01:57 PM
A question can be an opinion at the same time.

Not the way you prhased it.

SerenaSlam
Nov 6th, 2003, 01:57 PM
yall don't get the point that ws trying to be made.

kim4eva
Nov 6th, 2003, 01:59 PM
I hate Pam :o
Even if she says "Belgians" are better than Venus...including my fave player Kim...I still think she has HUGE bias about Justine...and she's not being fair on Venus. Justine and Venus haven't played each other recently...so how could she just make a statement using old history??:confused:

The Crow
Nov 6th, 2003, 02:00 PM
Since when are we taking Pam Shriver serious?

fleemke³
Nov 6th, 2003, 02:31 PM
Well we'll find out next year on the courts, aren't we?

If Pan thinks that way, than it's her right to say that. There's nothing wrong with it!

If Justine and Kim are better they will prove it soon :) or not ;) and please don't go back to those H2H :rolleyes:

lizchris
Nov 6th, 2003, 03:12 PM
Well we'll find out next year on the courts, aren't we?

If Pan thinks that way, than it's her right to say that. There's nothing wrong with it!

If Justine and Kim are better they will prove it soon :) or not ;) and please don't go back to those H2H :rolleyes:

Funny how Justine's fans throw around the fact that Justine is 2-1 against Serena this year, but forget that Venus beat her in January. And I don't want to hear that she wasn't in form. This was after she started working with a new fitness coach in Florida.

jellybelly
Nov 6th, 2003, 03:16 PM
what is this whining whining ha?
this Pam character can say what she wants why does it matter to you so much? Don't know/care about Venus but Serena will win all big big tournaments when she returns :worship:

Knizzle
Nov 6th, 2003, 03:21 PM
Alot of Juju fans are saying "That's just her opinion", but when Lei Clijsters voiced his opinion about how Juju got so strong in such a short time, there were multiple threads longer than this of Justine fans complaining.

jellybelly
Nov 6th, 2003, 03:24 PM
Alot of Juju fans are saying "That's just her opinion", but when Lei Clijsters voiced his opinion about how Juju got so strong in such a short time, there were multiple threads longer than this of Justine fans complaining.

soz, my Engrazi not so good so I did not understand Pam was calling Venus a druggie druggie :mad:

Why this Pam character given a role in TV? If she was in my TV I would close it promptly :fiery:

fleemke³
Nov 6th, 2003, 03:29 PM
Alot of Juju fans are saying "That's just her opinion", but when Lei Clijsters voiced his opinion about how Juju got so strong in such a short time, there were multiple threads longer than this of Justine fans complaining.


Yeah right Knizzlz .. Saying someone takes doping or saying someone is better is JUST THE SAME :rolleyes:

@Lizchris: Venus won from Justine in january .. almost a year ago! There is a lot changed now so we can't predict what's going to happen know. Serena lost to Justine in june so that isn't that long ago (although it has been a while)

When players meet eachother a few times in a short period you can use the H2H's but when there's almost a year between it it's useless! I'm not saying that Justine is going to win or lose against Venus, because I don't know. They are both great players and they will give us the answer on court.

You can love your player as much as you want but please learn to handle with critism and try to see if there's maybe a reason why they say that. Sometimes critism is correct and I'm NOT saying this on is correct!

jellybelly
Nov 6th, 2003, 03:31 PM
Justine did the cheating cheating :rolleyes:

persond
Nov 6th, 2003, 03:38 PM
Yeah right Knizzlz .. Saying someone takes doping or saying someone is better is JUST THE SAME :rolleyes:

@Lizchris: Venus won from Justine in january .. almost a year ago! There is a lot changed now so we can't predict what's going to happen know. Serena lost to Justine in june so that isn't that long ago (although it has been a while)

When players meet eachother a few times in a short period you can use the H2H's but when there's almost a year between it it's useless! I'm not saying that Justine is going to win or lose against Venus, because I don't know. They are both great players and they will give us the answer on court.

You can love your player as much as you want but please learn to handle with critism and try to see if there's maybe a reason why they say that. Sometimes critism is correct and I'm NOT saying this on is correct!


Fleemke, Serena beat Justine rather convincingly at Wimby...of course, you all fail to remember that, but, it's okay. I predict, that if and when Justine meets Serena again, whether on a fast court or slow (clay), Serena will be extremely motivated to beat her...Can you say Jcap vs Serena...??? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Cybelle Darkholme
Nov 6th, 2003, 03:40 PM
For the life of me why do you people act so simple and biased? Its reasonable when comparing players to focus on the current calendar year not last year or years before. There has to be some standard of the present so it makes perfect sense to use the calendar year at hand otherwise one could say oh myskina is better than justine and kim because she beat them back to back a few weeks ago. Sorry but that doesnt tell the whole story.

So working with the present year it is clear that both justine and kim have had better results than venus. However when kim and justine faced venus on the court she beat them both. Hell she even beat kim while enduring a nasty season ending injury. So if justine and kim are better then why didn't they beat venus this season? Surely if one is better you win, correct? Obviously they weren't better on the days they played venus and then venus was off the tour because of an injury so who knows what would have happened?

In the end justine and kim have had better years it does not make them better players. Once Venus comes back on tour we will all see who is better.

In my opinion saying the belgians are better than venus is like saying kim is better than justine. How in the world is kim better when kim only won 2 matches this year against justine, three if you count the retirement, while justine won four.

jellybelly
Nov 6th, 2003, 03:43 PM
:worship:

nice points Cybelle :kiss:

fleemke³
Nov 6th, 2003, 03:52 PM
I never said that Justine and Kim already have the same status as the sisters but you can't deny they are better now and there IS A CHANCE they are better than Venus now.

@ Cybell: ow I see .. Myskina isn't better than Justine because she won one time this year from here in Leipzig but Venus is better than Justine because she lost 1 time this year :rolleyes:

@Persond: I was the first to say that Serena deserved to win that match.

ok it's clear that you guys even doesn't wonna see what I meant ... sorry to disturb :rolleyes: and have fun in your own world :rolleyes:

harloo
Nov 6th, 2003, 03:53 PM
Damn, Pam is up to her usual tricks again. I mean my goodness the Williams are not even at this tournament and that's all they do is talk about them.

Face it Justine fans, Justine has not proven herself against Venus yet. Neither has Capriati, or Kim. Venus on a good day will beat them. The only #1 Venus had problems with is Serena who is more closely matched to her game and has a superior serve.

EVERYONE else is just enjoying their time at the top, because if Venus comes back on fire then the belgians are going down.

:lol: :lol:

Cybelle Darkholme
Nov 6th, 2003, 04:08 PM
I never said that Justine and Kim already have the same status as the sisters but you can't deny they are better now and there IS A CHANCE they are better than Venus now.

@ Cybell: ow I see .. Myskina isn't better than Justine because she won one time this year from here in Leipzig but Venus is better than Justine because she lost 1 time this year :rolleyes:

@Persond: I was the first to say that Serena deserved to win that match.

ok it's clear that you guys even doesn't wonna see what I meant ... sorry to disturb :rolleyes: and have fun in your own world :rolleyes:

didnt you even read my post? I said that venus was better on that day and its impossible to know what else would have happened because she went out for the rest of the year. Hello are you reading...

bandabou
Nov 6th, 2003, 04:19 PM
Flemke....Kim and Justine are better now?! Better than whom?! They are better than the Myskina´s and Dementieva´s of this world....but I wouldn´t say they are better than the Williamses. Venus beat both this year and Serena only lost to Justine on clay, but that wasn´t news.

Of course the Juju-fans will always say: Yeah, but she wasn´t the new improved Justine at the Oz and blah blah.....fact is she hasn´t beaten Venus since a LOONNGG time ago.

tennisIlove09
Nov 6th, 2003, 04:25 PM
FYI

Venus leads Van Roost 2-1
1998-03-02 Indian Wells Hardcourt R16 Venus Williams (USA) 6-4 6-1
1998-10-05 Filderstadt Indoor Hardcourt R16 Dominique Van Roost (BEL) 6-1 6-2
1999-05-03 Rome Clay QF Venus Williams (USA) 7-6(1) 6-2

Serena leads Van Roost 1-0
1998-05-25 Roland Garros Clay R32 Serena Williams (USA) 6-1 6-1

DA FOREHAND
Nov 6th, 2003, 04:28 PM
Just because she states an opinion that doesn't match your own, doesn't mean she has some sort of Bias.

You cannot look at what Venus done 2 years ago, it just doesn't count anymore.

I think it was Hingis who said that it takes being away from the tour for only a month and you can notice subtle improvements in the top players when you return.

I believe that Venus's best is not good enough to beat Justine or to a lesser extent Kim at this time. When Venus has been back on the tour for 6 months though, her best may well be better then what it is now, so it may very well change. Until then, I agree with Pam.


YOU ARE AN IDIOT! :fiery: Venus at her best pulverized both of them. Hell you could do a Pilot Penn on them and beat them back to back in the span of a few hrs. Underestimate her at your favs. peril. A weakened injured Venus fed Kim a breadstick, beat her in straights in her hometown, and blitzed justine at the A.O. all this year 2003. Get a f'n clue. :smash:

"I wish that Pam could explain how is it since 2001 that Venus' H2H against the both of them is 12-3?" :wavey:

bandabou
Nov 6th, 2003, 04:33 PM
FYI

Venus leads Van Roost 2-1
1998-03-02 Indian Wells Hardcourt R16 Venus Williams (USA) 6-4 6-1
1998-10-05 Filderstadt Indoor Hardcourt R16 Dominique Van Roost (BEL) 6-1 6-2
1999-05-03 Rome Clay QF Venus Williams (USA) 7-6(1) 6-2

Serena leads Van Roost 1-0
1998-05-25 Roland Garros Clay R32 Serena Williams (USA) 6-1 6-1


Serena´s victory was REALLY decisive!! DANG! I still can´t believe how Serena let ASV slip away...she had a great chance to win that RG.

¤CharlDa¤
Nov 6th, 2003, 04:37 PM
WOW...Pam is so stupid...Venus is and will always be better than the Belgians and by far :rooleyes: Who does she think she is to say that?

The Crow
Nov 6th, 2003, 05:06 PM
For the life of me why do you people act so simple and biased? Its reasonable when comparing players to focus on the current calendar year not last year or years before. There has to be some standard of the present so it makes perfect sense to use the calendar year at hand otherwise one could say oh myskina is better than justine and kim because she beat them back to back a few weeks ago. Sorry but that doesnt tell the whole story.

So working with the present year it is clear that both justine and kim have had better results than venus. However when kim and justine faced venus on the court she beat them both. Hell she even beat kim while enduring a nasty season ending injury. So if justine and kim are better then why didn't they beat venus this season? Surely if one is better you win, correct? Obviously they weren't better on the days they played venus and then venus was off the tour because of an injury so who knows what would have happened?

In the end justine and kim have had better years it does not make them better players. Once Venus comes back on tour we will all see who is better.

In my opinion saying the belgians are better than venus is like saying kim is better than justine. How in the world is kim better when kim only won 2 matches this year against justine, three if you count the retirement, while justine won four.

Of course this is not telling the full story either. Venus and Justine played once this year. At the beginning of the year. IMO that doesn't give much insight either. And I'm not trying to prove that Justine is better than Venus (imo that's irrelevant really)

All in all, I think Venus would be happy if she could trade her results with the results of Justine this year :p

pigam
Nov 6th, 2003, 05:20 PM
Alot of Juju fans are saying "That's just her opinion", but when Lei Clijsters voiced his opinion about how Juju got so strong in such a short time, there were multiple threads longer than this of Justine fans complaining.

:lol:
sure, another great comparison :rolleyes:

bandabou
Nov 6th, 2003, 05:32 PM
Of course this is not telling the full story either. Venus and Justine played once this year. At the beginning of the year. IMO that doesn't give much insight either. And I'm not trying to prove that Justine is better than Venus (imo that's irrelevant really)

All in all, I think Venus would be happy if she could trade her results with the results of Justine this year :p

THAT you can say....but why is it irrelevant whom is better?! Because you already know the answer perhaps?!

DA FOREHAND
Nov 6th, 2003, 05:38 PM
7-1
5-2(?)

Says it all to me

Knizzle
Nov 6th, 2003, 05:41 PM
:lol:
sure, another great comparison :rolleyes:

Well, Justine has cheated publicly before during a match, so I guess her character is in question.

Knizzle
Nov 6th, 2003, 05:44 PM
7-1
5-2(?)

Says it all to me

They know and they realize that Venus is better than the Belgians. They are holding out hope though because the sisters have been off tour. They will be in for a rude awakening in 2004 though. They seem to get more amnesia after everytime the sisters (particularly Venus) beat up on the Belgians, but are forever remembering any W for the Belgians, including ones where their opponent retires at 5-0 in the first set.

griffin
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:12 PM
Alot of Juju fans are saying "That's just her opinion", but when Lei Clijsters voiced his opinion about how Juju got so strong in such a short time, there were multiple threads longer than this of Justine fans complaining.

Surely you can see the difference between an opinion ("I think X is better than Y") and an accusation ("X cheated/used drugs" or "Y and Z fix their matches")?

Kim and Juju are playing better than earlier this year. But with the benchmarks (Venus and Serena) out of sight, all anyone can really do is speculate as to HOW MUCH better. How else to measure?

It's just "silly season" starting early.

bandabou
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:31 PM
Surely you can see the difference between an opinion ("I think X is better than Y") and an accusation ("X cheated/used drugs" or "Y and Z fix their matches")?

Kim and Juju are playing better than earlier this year. But with the benchmarks (Venus and Serena) out of sight, all anyone can really do is speculate as to HOW MUCH better. How else to measure?

It's just "silly season" starting early.

Exactly.....the Belgians have improved. But how much have they REALLY improved?! Them beating a bunch of -ina´s and ova´s doesn´t say much, because the -ina´s and ova´s weren´t, aren´t and won´t be the benchmark.

griffin
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:38 PM
Right, but it makes it just as likely that someone will come up with "they're better now than Venus" since Venus isn't around to test the matter one way or the other.

If Pam were saying this with Venus on court and proving otherwise, I'd be more likely to get worked up. But all this is is idle chatter, and not worth much more than an eyeroll no matter what you think of the conclusion.

bandabou
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:41 PM
yep....Venus will show them on the courts soon!

harloo
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:50 PM
The problem with this theory is that Venus has never had a problem beating Justine. I still don't think she will beat Venus even at her best level. Maybe on clay, but that's about it.

:lol:

Cam'ron Giles
Nov 6th, 2003, 06:59 PM
This whole argument is stupid on both sides...to be fair ( :eek: ) Venus and Serena has been out for half the season...there is no way to know what would have happened...The Belgians are clearly much better than they were last year this time and even at the begining of the year...We can argue that The sisters are head and shoulders above them on grass...we saw what happened in London...My OPINION is that Venus and Serena at 100% would kick the Belgians ass from LA to Antwerp but that is just MY OPINION...and we all know what they say about opinions...they are like assho...:tape:

bandabou
Nov 6th, 2003, 07:03 PM
This whole argument is stupid on both sides...to be fair ( :eek: ) Venus and Serena has been out for half the season...there is no way to know what would have happened...The Belgians are clearly much better than they were last year this time and even at the begining of the year...We can argue that The sisters are head and shoulders above them on grass...we saw what happened in London...My OPINION is that Venus and Serena at 100% would kick the Belgians ass from LA to Antwerp but that is just MY OPINION...and we all know what they say about opinions...they are like assho...:tape:

Yep....the faster the surfaces, the closer the chance of the Belgians beating either sister reaches zero %...when it is on a slow surface the chance enhances a little for the Belgians to beat a Williams.

Serendy Willick
Nov 7th, 2003, 08:50 PM
soz, my Engrazi not so good so I did not understand Pam was calling Venus a druggie druggie :mad:

Why this Pam character given a role in TV? If she was in my TV I would close it promptly :fiery:


How is that an accustaion? He didnt accuse her of being on Steroids.

Serendy Willick
Nov 7th, 2003, 08:55 PM
Of course this is not telling the full story either. Venus and Justine played once this year. At the beginning of the year. IMO that doesn't give much insight either. And I'm not trying to prove that Justine is better than Venus (imo that's irrelevant really)

All in all, I think Venus would be happy if she could trade her results with the results of Justine this year :p


Dont try to pick and fucking choose :rolleyes: Didnt she beat out Davenport in a thrilling three setter to get to the semis? :rolleyes: Noone is arguing that the Beligans have had better results this year than Venus. Duh. The Level of competition since Wimbeldon has been abysmal PERIOD. With Seles out, the Williams out, Davenport not being fully healthy (these are just 4 of the dominant hardcourt players) and others the competiton whose is supposedly gonna step it up? The overhyped russians? Get real.

venusfan
Nov 7th, 2003, 09:35 PM
Pam Shriver is a F$()#$*&*G B##(($#(H..

Thank You

Frank Riley
Nov 7th, 2003, 09:37 PM
What more can we say, Justine and Kim are the best in the world, Venus really can not play at their level, Serena might be able to give them a run for the money but she is hurt and even if she could play Justine has shown that she can beat Serena, what more needs to be said. :rolleyes:

venusfan
Nov 7th, 2003, 09:47 PM
I seem to remember the last time Serena played justin she spanked her falt behind so bad that the annoucers were complaining about the mismatch. also the last time Venus faced Kim she pulled out the chocker in her thunder thighs beating her while she was injured and could hardly move.

Venus and Serena reign supreme..

bandabou
Nov 7th, 2003, 09:55 PM
What more can we say, Justine and Kim are the best in the world, Venus really can not play at their level, Serena might be able to give them a run for the money but she is hurt and even if she could play Justine has shown that she can beat Serena, what more needs to be said. :rolleyes:

I hope you´ll be such a fan aswell when the going gets tough next year and both Venus and Serena resume showing le Belgians who are queens.

hinquit
Nov 7th, 2003, 10:25 PM
When Richard Williams predicted that her daughters will be grandslam
champion, many dismissed his statement. It happened. When he
predicted they will be #1 and #2 in the world one day, he was considered crazy.
He also said when they are out of the game for some time and come
back, they can be #1 and #2 again. And the strategy is taking place
now. Watch 2004 for the sisters coming back strong and the belgians
going down because of not being able to defend titles won in the
absence of the sisters.
I wonder Pam could consider herself better than Venus when she was
playing. In her whole career she earned five million dollars compared to
Venus' almost 13 million dollars.
Justine and Kim have a good year but that is not an indicator that they
are better than Venus. When Venus comes back healthy and being
beaten by these players, then one can argue that they are now better
than Venus. But looking at the previous encounter and while Venus is
injured and not being playing for a so long, one should not conclude
that Justine or Kim is beteer than Venus because they won couple of
tournaments beating, according someone, inas, novas, kova, nivas and
tievas.

Pamela Shriver
Nov 7th, 2003, 10:31 PM
I rulez.

Can't believe people actually listened to what i said...I got so used to being ignored I kinda didn't think anyone would notice...

bandabou
Nov 7th, 2003, 10:33 PM
Yep, Richard´s prognostications were all so good, that it is almost scary!!

*hingis_forever*
Nov 7th, 2003, 10:42 PM
Why do you Williams fans get mad so easily! You're acting like children! :rolleyes: And actually, as of right now, Henin-Hardenne is BETTER than Venus! It doesn't mean she has had the better career, because she hasn't, but if they played right now and Venus was healthy, Henin-Hardenne would be the favorite!

Jericho
Nov 7th, 2003, 10:52 PM
Why do you Williams fans get mad so easily! You're acting like children! :rolleyes: And actually, as of right now, Henin-Hardenne is BETTER than Venus! It doesn't mean she has had the better career, because she hasn't, but if they played right now and Venus was healthy, Henin-Hardenne would be the favorite!

excuse me, but you hell aint gonna judge one group of fans because of a few die hard fans opinions...cuz god knows that Justine fans never get mad over cheating accusations or Kim fans over choking... :rolleyes:

bandabou
Nov 7th, 2003, 10:53 PM
Why do you Williams fans get mad so easily! You're acting like children! :rolleyes: And actually, as of right now, Henin-Hardenne is BETTER than Venus! It doesn't mean she has had the better career, because she hasn't, but if they played right now and Venus was healthy, Henin-Hardenne would be the favorite!

And that´d be great! Because it´d be the first time in a long time that the no.10 beats the no.1 and it wouldn´t be considered a surprise.

lizchris
Nov 7th, 2003, 11:51 PM
What more can we say, Justine and Kim are the best in the world, Venus really can not play at their level, Serena might be able to give them a run for the money but she is hurt and even if she could play Justine has shown that she can beat Serena, what more needs to be said. :rolleyes:

Funny, the last time I checked, not only could she play at their level, she could beat them at their own game. The only surface she has not beaten either Belgian is on red clay and she may beat them on that in the years to come.

Knizzle
Nov 7th, 2003, 11:54 PM
Funny, the last time I checked, not only could she play at their level, she could beat them at their own game. The only surface she has not beaten either Belgian is on red clay and she may beat them on that in the years to come.

Kim knows Venus can play on clay, she herself said after the Hamburg 2002 final that she couldn't do anything with Venus until Venus started to make too many errors. People need to look at Venus' 5 clay titles and see the players she beat EASILY on the way to her titles.

lizchris
Nov 7th, 2003, 11:58 PM
Kim knows Venus can play on clay, she herself said after the Hamburg 2002 final that she couldn't do anything with Venus until Venus started to make too many errors. People need to look at Venus' 5 clay titles and see the players she beat EASILY on the way to her titles.

Oh, I know Venus can play on clay, but when she is playing one of the Belgians, or any European for that matter, they have the edge because they played on that surface more than she did, just like she has the edge on hardcourt because she has played on it more than they have.

Informative
Nov 8th, 2003, 03:25 AM
Shriver is not only an idiot (as usual) and dead wrong in her braindead "analysis" but a brazen LIAR as well. In sports, as even a child knows, objective assessments about who is "best" or "better" is based on RESULTS. In absolutely no way whatsoever has Kim or Justine EVER been better than Venus. Not in 2003. Not in 2002 Not in 2001. Not ever. Neither Kim nor Justine has EVER beaten Venus in a grand slam event. NOT ONCE. Not this year, not last year, or before or during 2001. As has been pointed out numerous times for people who seemingly don't understand arithmetic, Venus has beaten Kim and Justine 12 out of the 15 times they have met in their careers and they both lost to Venus this year (2003). If a boxer had beaten two opponents 80% of the times they had met in the ring AND that boxer had beaten those same two opponents every single time they had fought for the championship AND had beaten them again with no losses this year no boxing commentator would be moronic/asinine/stupid enough to assert that the two opponents were "better" than the boxer who possessed the overwhelmingly better record. If one team had beaten another 12 out of the 15 times they had met AND had also defeated them in every single championship game they had ever played against each other what commentator in his/her right mind would conclude that the opponent had a "better" team? Don't be ridiculous! This entire pseudo-debate is beyond absurd. The fact is that from June 2001--July 5, 2003 (the last time Venus played anyone) she has won 14 titles (despite playing in far fewer tournaments than either Kim or Justine) and has a higher winning percentage than any player in the entire WTA (112-15 or .881) AND she is 112-9 or .925 against the WTA minus Serena, who's beaten her 6 straight times during this period (Venus was 5-1 against her sister before 2002). During this period Venus has also been a GS winner twice and runnerup in GS finals 5 times, all to her sister Serena, NOT KIM OR JUSTINE. COMBINED Kim and Justine's record isn't this good or consistent over the past 3 years (which also includes this year). So Shriver and her clueless acolytes need to return to first grade and learn how to COUNT before they make such baseless assertions or engage in such bizarre and blatant distortions of the truth.

persond
Nov 8th, 2003, 05:11 AM
Shriver is not only an idiot (as usual) and dead wrong in her braindead "analysis" but a brazen LIAR as well. In sports, as even a child knows, objective assessments about who is "best" or "better" is based on RESULTS. In absolutely no way whatsoever has Kim or Justine EVER been better than Venus. Not in 2003. Not in 2002 Not in 2001. Not ever. Neither Kim nor Justine has EVER beaten Venus in a grand slam event. NOT ONCE. Not this year, not last year, or before or during 2001. As has been pointed out numerous times for people who seemingly don't understand arithmetic, Venus has beaten Kim and Justine 12 out of the 15 times they have met in their careers and they both lost to Venus this year (2003). If a boxer had beaten two opponents 80% of the times they had met in the ring AND that boxer had beaten those same two opponents every single time they had fought for the championship AND had beaten them again with no losses this year no boxing commentator would be moronic/asinine/stupid enough to assert that the two opponents were "better" than the boxer who possessed the overwhelmingly better record. If one team had beaten another 12 out of the 15 times they had met AND had also defeated them in every single championship game they had ever played against each other what commentator in his/her right mind would conclude that the opponent had a "better" team? Don't be ridiculous! This entire pseudo-debate is beyond absurd. The fact is that from June 2001--July 5, 2003 (the last time Venus played anyone) she has won 14 titles (despite playing in far fewer tournaments than either Kim or Justine) and has a higher winning percentage than any player in the entire WTA (112-15 or .881) AND she is 112-9 or .925 against the WTA minus Serena, who's beaten her 6 straight times during this period (Venus was 5-1 against her sister before 2002). During this period Venus has also been a GS winner twice and runnerup in GS finals 5 times, all to her sister Serena, NOT KIM OR JUSTINE. COMBINED Kim and Justine's record isn't this good or consistent over the past 3 years (which also includes this year). So Shriver and her clueless acolytes need to return to first grade and learn how to COUNT before they make such baseless assertions or engage in such bizarre and blatant distortions of the truth.


Truer words were never spoken...!!! :worship: :worship:

treufreund
Nov 8th, 2003, 06:56 AM
it is true that justine lost one match to venus that she should have won before she became the mentally strong player she is now. perhaps her game did not match well with Venus's in the past but at least she has recorded 3 wins over Serena in the past 2 years which is something Venus cannot claim. :p

persond
Nov 8th, 2003, 06:59 AM
it is true that justine lost one match to venus that she should have won before she became the mentally strong player she is now. perhaps her game did not match well with Venus's in the past but at least she has recorded 3 wins over Serena in the past 2 years which is something Venus cannot claim. :p

Can't wait until January and the Sisters are back on court...!!! Can you say "beat down"...!!! :tape: :tape:

DemWilliamsGulls
Nov 9th, 2003, 12:32 AM
I had to come back and comment on this topic. Dont get me wrong, the belgiums have up'ed thier game, but on thier best day they cant beat venus when she is not even %100....you saw that at wimbledon. In 2002 ...venus practically steamrolled everyone except her sister. Thier level of play and athleticism is on a different level than everyone else on the wta...and if they do loose...they are barely defeated. I honestly think that Venus game is better than serena's, but she does not play as hard being that is her blood sisters across the court. All i know is that if they come back in 2004 without injuries and 100%..like they did in 02', *in bernie macs voice* "its going to be trouuuuubllleeeeee trouuuuubbbbllleeeee." :cool: