PDA

View Full Version : Margaret Court vs. Steffi Graf


alfajeffster
Nov 4th, 2003, 10:29 PM
We've all heard the Monica/Steffi arguments ad nauseum, but what do you think about the argument for Margaret Court being the all-time greatest tennis player in comparison to what Steffi has done?

Margaret Court: 24 singles, 19 doubles, 19 mixed majors
Steffi Graf: 22 singles, 1 doubles, 0 mixed

Pretty interesting argument.

tennisvideos
Nov 4th, 2003, 11:16 PM
Hi Jeff

Just waiting for those Aussie Open arguments... yawn. Esp from those posters who don't appreciate the true quality of players that Margaret did in fact have to contend with in the majority of them. I guess it would balance the fact that Steffi's chief adversary was out of action for 3 years and never reached her dizzy heights again on her return.

Anyway, both great players and both deserving of their place among the all time greats.

Sam L
Nov 4th, 2003, 11:35 PM
On paper Margaret Court is better, but we all know Steffi's achievements mean more because of tougher competition etc...

Marge was a paper tiger.

7~ŒLęV3ņ―
Nov 4th, 2003, 11:39 PM
me know am 2 yung to no. but in the era of margaret court... is it the same like in this era without the williams sisters, with justine being the one n only margaret.???

tennisvideos
Nov 4th, 2003, 11:49 PM
Well said Sam... So Maria Bueno (3 time Wimbledon Singles Champ + French & US Titles), Billie-Jean King (6 x Wimbledon Singles titles as well as French & US Titles) Evonne Goolagong (numerous Grand Slam singles titles), Darlene Hard (multiple Grand Slam winner) - all of whom Margaret dominated throughout her career were not tough competition? And then there was Lesley Turner (dual French Open champion and World #2 for several years who Margaret completely dominated), and the others she dominated included Rosie Casals, Anne Jones (Wimbledon champion), Judy Tegart, Nancy Richey (US & French Champion and ranked higher than Billie-Jean King in the USA for many years). And then after having a child, Margaret still comes back and beats Chris Evert in the French Open Final of 73. And still has wins over Navratilova, Goolagong and just about everyone else around after having 2 children and in her 30s...

I suggest you research your tennis history before you come out with such outrageous and blinkered statements such as the one above.

The competition in Margaret Court's era was tremendous, there is no doubt. Only after the top 10 did it drop off and was there less depth. But those players that made the top 10 in the 60s and 70s were all top quality players and many champions littered the rankings: Hard, Bueno, King, Goolagong, Evert, Navratilova and just below that rung was an exeptional supporting cast comprised of Turner, Wade, Jones, Casals, Tegart, Melville-Reid to name just a few.

bandabou
Nov 4th, 2003, 11:51 PM
I think looking at the numbers: 24, 19, 19 and 22,1,0...it is pretty much closed. Margareth excelled at ALL three disciplines... the weak-competition thing is crap. Like Conchita, ASV are greater than BJK.

MisterQ
Nov 4th, 2003, 11:54 PM
I think it's a tough call. I think Margaret Court definitely doesn't get the recognition she deserves. She's not even a household name in the sense that Navratilova, and Graf are.

What is the distribution of those 24 slams (and what surfaces were they played on) back then)? Because to me one of the most impressive things about Steffi is her winning each of the Grand Slam events at least 4 times.

bandabou
Nov 4th, 2003, 11:57 PM
I think it's a tough call. I think Margaret Court definitely doesn't get the recognition she deserves. She's not even a household name in the sense that Navratilova, and Graf are.

What is the distribution of those 24 slams (and what surfaces were they played on) back then)? Because to me one of the most impressive things about Steffi is her winning each of the Grand Slam events at least 4 times.


Still: 22<24. Isnīt this the answer when discussing Graf and Seles?! So why change it now. 24 GSīs are always greater than 22 slams.

tennisvideos
Nov 5th, 2003, 12:01 AM
MisterQ

Margaret won all the Slams at least 3 times. As well as winning the Grand Slam in 1970, there were 4 other occasions that she won 3 of the 4 Slams. One of those was in 1973 when the only match she lost was in the Semis of Wimbledon to Chris Evert. This was after having her first child BTW.

3 of the Slams were on grass - the US, Aussie and Wimbledon and the French was on clay.

Kart
Nov 5th, 2003, 12:22 AM
I have recently been wondering about Margaret Court vs Steffi Graf in the greatness stakes.

Personally I never saw Court play so I can't really comment. I have to say though that managing to come back strong after having had kids deserves a :bowdown:.

Oizo
Nov 5th, 2003, 01:59 AM
Margaret Court belongs definitely to the greatest of ALL Time and the Tennis Hall of Fame. But I think when you start comparing her with a player from another era/time you forget how much has changed: things like: the raquets, the courts and the most important of all, the public eye of the media. The pressure is today much more higher on a #1 ranked player, than it was at that time. The Grand-Slams are on different surfaces and the WTA tour is FULL of tournaments. Itīs not fair to make any of these two players better than the other, because the circumstances are not equal.
You can compare like: Navratilova-Evert, Sanchez-Graf or Hingis-Davenport, but never players from different eras. IMO

darren cahill
Nov 5th, 2003, 02:12 AM
some one is showing his age again! ;) :hug:

by the way...Steffi was the best ;) :angel:

bandabou
Nov 5th, 2003, 02:15 AM
Steffi was the greatest of her generation.

Oizo
Nov 5th, 2003, 02:20 AM
I didnīt said that. But if you feel so, ok. :rolleyes:

darren cahill
Nov 5th, 2003, 02:23 AM
I didnīt said that. But if you feel so, ok. :rolleyes:


wasnt talking about you....he knows who I mean! :p ;)

Oizo
Nov 5th, 2003, 02:24 AM
Ohh, Sorry. :o :tape:

bandabou
Nov 5th, 2003, 02:27 AM
I didnīt said that. But if you feel so, ok. :rolleyes:

Whom are u talking too?!

tennisvideos
Nov 5th, 2003, 02:30 AM
Thanks bitch ;) As long as I can still beat 20 year olds at tennis I don't care. I plan to beat them for the next 40 years too. LOL.

Hi Oizo :) You are correct. You cannot compare different eras with any degree of accuracy as there are far too many variables.

Rollo
Nov 5th, 2003, 02:56 AM
Graf and Court are the cream of the crop-the very elite. Only about 6 or 7 women can lay claim to be the greatest ever-and I'd include Court in that list.

Great post Oizo, though in the 60s the tour had about 4 times the tournaments it does today. And while the #1 may have more pressure today from the media-she also has an entourage to shield her from them and money to hire whomever she wants.

LOl@Darren and Tennisvideos:)

TV-I recently got videos of the 1964 Wimbledon final and the 73 women's dubs with Casals-King and Durr-Stove. I became an instant Durr fan! :hearts:

tennisvideos
Nov 5th, 2003, 03:03 AM
Hi Rollo :)

Great post. Glad you have fallen for Durr! How can one resist! LOL. :)

Sam L
Nov 5th, 2003, 03:08 AM
Well said Sam... So Maria Bueno (3 time Wimbledon Singles Champ + French & US Titles), Billie-Jean King (6 x Wimbledon Singles titles as well as French & US Titles) Evonne Goolagong (numerous Grand Slam singles titles), Darlene Hard (multiple Grand Slam winner) - all of whom Margaret dominated throughout her career were not tough competition? And then there was Lesley Turner (dual French Open champion and World #2 for several years who Margaret completely dominated), and the others she dominated included Rosie Casals, Anne Jones (Wimbledon champion), Judy Tegart, Nancy Richey (US & French Champion and ranked higher than Billie-Jean King in the USA for many years). And then after having a child, Margaret still comes back and beats Chris Evert in the French Open Final of 73. And still has wins over Navratilova, Goolagong and just about everyone else around after having 2 children and in her 30s...

I suggest you research your tennis history before you come out with such outrageous and blinkered statements such as the one above.

The competition in Margaret Court's era was tremendous, there is no doubt. Only after the top 10 did it drop off and was there less depth. But those players that made the top 10 in the 60s and 70s were all top quality players and many champions littered the rankings: Hard, Bueno, King, Goolagong, Evert, Navratilova and just below that rung was an exeptional supporting cast comprised of Turner, Wade, Jones, Casals, Tegart, Melville-Reid to name just a few.
Good points, except where did she beat them? Oh right, in Australia where it was a lesser important event or France or US. At Wimbledon, at the biggest stage in the world, she crumbled. Winning the title only 3 times.

Take Helen Wills, for example, she didn't have the quality of opponents like Graf or Court but she won where it counted. Wimbledon and 8 times at that.

tennisvideos
Nov 5th, 2003, 03:34 AM
Excuse me Sam, but Court beat King in the Wimbledon Finals of 1963 & 1970 and she beat her again in the Semis there in 1964. She lost twice to King at Wimbledon in 1962 & 1966. She beat Maria Bueno in the Wimbledon Final of 1965 and beat Darlene Hard in 63 Wimbledon Semis.

And I wouldn't sneeze at the French or USO titles which always featured the world's best up until 1974 (when the French lost it's best players to WTT).

In the French Court beat the following players in the finals:

62 - Lesley Turner - world #2 and twice French Open champion.
64 - Maria Bueno (multiple GS winner inc 3 Wimbledon singles titles)
69 - Anne Jones (Wimbledon champion that year)
70- Helga Neissen
73 - Chris Evert

At the US Open Court beat the following players in the Finals:
62 - Darlene Hard (two time defending USO Champ)
65 - Billie-Jean King
69 - Nancy Richey (French Open champ & world #2)
70 - Rosie Casals
73 - Evonne Goolagong

At the Aussie Open Court beat the following players in the finals:
60-63 Jan Lehane (top Aussie player of the era who had wins over most of the top players of the day including Bueno, Truman etc)
Margaret also beat Maria Bueno along the way in one of those wins.
64 - Lesley Turner (world #2 and twice French Champ)
65 - Maria Bueno
66- Nancy Richey (world #2 and higher ranked than Billie-Jean King in the USA rankings four times during the 60s)
69 - Billie-Jean King
70 - Kerry Melville - world top 5
71 & 73 - Evonne Goolagong

So if you can take a look, Margaret beat most of the world's best in all the slams. I repeat, before you shoot from the hip, do your research.

Also, Margaret dominated most players in all the tournaments of the world - other tournaments in the 60s were held in very high regard eg. German Open, Swiss Open, South African and Canadian Opens. Margaret often swept all 3 titles at many tournaments and was the dominant player of her generation.

PhoenixStorm
Nov 5th, 2003, 03:48 AM
The numbers dont lie. Court was greater than Graf. Period. More singles slams and more doubles and more mixed doubles slams. Anyone who thinks Graf is better while having less titles in every category is a fool.

MisterQ
Nov 5th, 2003, 06:44 AM
MisterQ

Margaret won all the Slams at least 3 times. As well as winning the Grand Slam in 1970, there were 4 other occasions that she won 3 of the 4 Slams. One of those was in 1973 when the only match she lost was in the Semis of Wimbledon to Chris Evert. This was after having her first child BTW.

3 of the Slams were on grass - the US, Aussie and Wimbledon and the French was on clay.

Thanks for the info!

:)

irma
Nov 5th, 2003, 06:50 AM
Margaret Court beat Billie jean who at 36 beat Nav at 23 who at 36 beat Steffi at 23

case closed :p

gRaFiC
Nov 5th, 2003, 10:34 AM
Steffi won the most slams in the least amount of time. Very efficient. Very dominant.

tennisvideos
Nov 5th, 2003, 10:55 AM
Suzanne Lenglen only ever lost 1 x Grand Slam match, and she defaulted in that one due to illness. Now that is what I call dominance. And Maureen Connolly utterly dominated her opponents in 3 of the most electrifying years ever seen by a player - shame a tragic accident cut her extraordinary career short. Just to provide a little perspective here.....

irma
Nov 5th, 2003, 11:19 AM
I think Margaret Court also won her slams in 12 years. I think the first in 61 and her last in 73.

azza
Nov 5th, 2003, 12:00 PM
Margaret Court :drool:

TheBoiledEgg
Nov 5th, 2003, 12:08 PM
Margaret Court :drool:

behave azza, she's old enough to be your great-grandma :tape: :tape:

Steffi was numero UNO :)

true Court won each slam 3 times, but she won the AUS Open so many times and there was about 1/10 (exaggerating a little but its close) of the normal slam standard field.

tennisjam
Nov 5th, 2003, 01:06 PM
this is not easy for me to say... :o but Steffi is better...

Hi irma and alfa :wavey: ;)

DA FOREHAND
Nov 5th, 2003, 05:21 PM
MisterQ

Margaret won all the Slams at least 3 times. As well as winning the Grand Slam in 1970, there were 4 other occasions that she won 3 of the 4 Slams. One of those was in 1973 when the only match she lost was in the Semis of Wimbledon to Chris Evert. This was after having her first child BTW.

3 of the Slams were on grass - the US, Aussie and Wimbledon and the French was on clay.


If three of the four surfaces were on grass Steffi would probably also have more slams, and Monica fewer. :rolleyes: :wavey:

darren cahill
Nov 5th, 2003, 05:23 PM
If three of the four surfaces were on grass Steffi would probably also have more slams, and Monica fewer. :rolleyes: :wavey:


God, i wish they ALL were on grass then! LOL

imagine what Navartilova would have done! :eek:

PhoenixStorm
Nov 5th, 2003, 05:52 PM
behave azza, she's old enough to be your great-grandma :tape: :tape:

Steffi was numero UNO :)

true Court won each slam 3 times, but she won the AUS Open so many times and there was about 1/10 (exaggerating a little but its close) of the normal slam standard field.


is it margarets fault that some players didn't show up at the aussie? It sounds suspiciously like the williams being absent from the open. Does that make justines us open less significant?

macn
Nov 5th, 2003, 06:12 PM
Excuse me Sam, but Court beat King in the Wimbledon Finals of 1963 & 1970 and she beat her again in the Semis there in 1964. In fact, she only ever lost once to King at Wimbledon in 1962. She beat Maria Bueno in the Wimbledon Final of 1965 and beat Darlene Hard in 63 Wimbledon Semis.

And I wouldn't sneeze at the French or USO titles which always featured the world's best up until 1974 (when the French lost it's best players to WTT).

In the French Court beat the following players in the finals:

62 - Lesley Turner - world #2 and twice French Open champion.
64 - Maria Bueno (multiple GS winner inc 3 Wimbledon singles titles)
69 - Anne Jones (Wimbledon champion that year)
70- Helga Neissen
73 - Chris Evert

At the US Open Court beat the following players in the Finals:
62 - Darlene Hard (two time defending USO Champ)
65 - Billie-Jean King
69 - Nancy Richey (French Open champ & world #2)
70 - Rosie Casals
73 - Evonne Goolagong

At the Aussie Open Court beat the following players in the finals:
60-63 Jan Lehane (top Aussie player of the era who had wins over most of the top players of the day including Bueno, Truman etc)
Margaret also beat Maria Bueno along the way in one of those wins.
64 - Lesley Turner (world #2 and twice French Champ)
65 - Maria Bueno
66- Nancy Richey (world #2 and higher ranked than King in USA many years in the 60s)
69 - Billie-Jean King
70 - Kerry Melville - world top 5
71 & 73 - Evonne Goolagong

So if you can take a look, Margaret beat most of the world's best in all the slams. I repeat, before you shoot from the hip, do your research.

Also, Margaret dominated most players in all the tournaments of the world - other tournaments in the 60s were held in very high regard eg. German Open, Swiss Open, South African and Canadian Opens. Margaret often swept all 3 titles at many tournaments and was the dominant player of her generation.


I agree that Margaret Court deserves more props than Steffi because unlike Graf, Margaret played all three events in the majors and many of the smaller tournaments had three events as well back in the day. We must remember that the tie breaker wasn't in effect during that time and the players could be on court for hours. Court had to contend with Bueno, Hard, King, Wade, Goolagong, Evert, Navratilova, Casals, and Ann Jones. All of the aforementioned players are in the hall of fame and will go down in history as some of the greatest of all time. Graf had to contend with Navratilova ( past her best years and still managed to beat Graf up until 1993) and Evert (past their prime), Seles ( we all know that story) and who else? Sanchez and Sabatini were good players but not great IMO.

Margaret and King were about even from 1966 until Court retired and Court didn't dominate King during that time, also Court lost to King in the 1966 Wimbledon semifinal giving Court a 3-2 edge at Wimbledon,a 2-1 edge at the Australian Open and a 1-1 record at the U.S. Open.

Nancy Richey deserves a lot of respect because she was a good player. She only ranked higher than King in 1964.(both were co #1 in 1965) King was the Highest ranked American from 1966 until 1974 when Evert took over.

DA FOREHAND
Nov 5th, 2003, 06:31 PM
Steffi doesn't get penalized because she didnt play dubs or the mixed dubs exhibition. I'm sure if she played in that era, she would have also played just as many events. Being a good doubles player means little on the singles court. Is Pete Sampras considered less of a great champion on the mens side because he didn't play three events per tournament?

DA FOREHAND
Nov 5th, 2003, 06:34 PM
"Graf had to contend with Navratilova ( past her best years and still managed to beat Graf up until 1993) and Evert (past their prime), Seles ( we all know that story) and who else? Sanchez and Sabatini were good players but not great IMO."

Martina Hingis, Venus Williams, Lindsay Davenport,Jennifer Capriati,Novotna, Pierce...

bandabou
Nov 5th, 2003, 06:39 PM
Steffi doesn't get penalized because she didnt play dubs or the mixed dubs exhibition. I'm sure if she played in that era, she would have also played just as many events. Being a good doubles player means little on the singles court. Is Pete Sampras considered less of a great champion on the mens side because he didn't play three events per tournament?

But even without doubles and mixed Court has won more than Graf.

macn
Nov 5th, 2003, 06:56 PM
Steffi doesn't get penalized because she didnt play dubs or the mixed dubs exhibition. I'm sure if she played in that era, she would have also played just as many events. Being a good doubles player means little on the singles court. Is Pete Sampras considered less of a great champion on the mens side because he didn't play three events per tournament?

Doubles has everything to do with what you do on the singles court when it comes to your stamina. Court and King entered many more tournaments than Graf and had to play both events. Graf spent a mere hour on the court in many instances then retired to her room where King and Court had to wait around to play the doubles and mixed. If Sampras had played all three events we may not have seen him win 14 singles titles!

bandabou
Nov 5th, 2003, 07:08 PM
Doubles has everything to do with what you do on the singles court when it comes to your stamina. Court and King entered many more tournaments than Graf and had to play both events. Graf spent a mere hour on the court in many instances then retired to her room where King and Court had to wait around to play the doubles and mixed. If Sampras had played all three events we may not have seen him win 14 singles titles!

Yep....someone doesnīt want to see that.

G-Ha
Nov 5th, 2003, 07:11 PM
Doubles has everything to do with what you do on the singles court when it comes to your stamina. Court and King entered many more tournaments than Graf and had to play both events. Graf spent a mere hour on the court in many instances then retired to her room where King and Court had to wait around to play the doubles and mixed. If Sampras had played all three events we may not have seen him win 14 singles titles!

Steffi often spent less than an hour on court...that's how quickly she demolished opponents.

And I'm laughing at the idea that mixed doubles is so taxing and that participating in it is a sign of stamina. Mixed doubles is on par with an exhibition match. Many of the top players who entered those events did it for fun and in order to avoid having to practice. McEnroe and Hingis, both great doubles players, admitted they entered even regular doubles events because they hated practicing.

Even funnier is the idea that Steffi would play a quick match and then run off to the hotel room and order room service. No one practiced with more intensity than Steffi Graf. Steffi could play a great match, against a top opponent and still go out and spend hours on the practice courts to ready herself for the next match. Steffi's practice sessions probably lasting longer, with more intensity than many of these allegedly "taxing" mixed doubles matches.

bandabou
Nov 5th, 2003, 07:25 PM
But the point still is that playing both doubles and singles at tournaments is more taxing than any practice session....because you have to practice for TWO events.

DA FOREHAND
Nov 5th, 2003, 08:08 PM
"Doubles has everything to do with what you do on the singles court when it comes to your stamina. Court and King entered many more tournaments than Graf and had to play both events. Graf spent a mere hour on the court in many instances then retired to her room where King and Court had to wait around to play the doubles and mixed. If Sampras had played all three events we may not have seen him win 14 singles titles!"

Doubles is glorified practice, Serves/volleys/Returns..

Your arugument(I use that term loosly{losely}) might have more merit had Steffi Graf not been among the fittest females ever to grace the courts. Her aerobic capacity was tremendous.

bandabou
Nov 5th, 2003, 08:13 PM
Still 24> 22!

macn
Nov 5th, 2003, 08:14 PM
"Doubles has everything to do with what you do on the singles court when it comes to your stamina. Court and King entered many more tournaments than Graf and had to play both events. Graf spent a mere hour on the court in many instances then retired to her room where King and Court had to wait around to play the doubles and mixed. If Sampras had played all three events we may not have seen him win 14 singles titles!"

Doubles is glorified practice, Serves/volleys/Returns..

Your arugument(I use that term loosly{losely}) might have more merit had Steffi Graf not been among the fittest females ever to grace the courts. Her aerobic capacity was tremendous.

What's even funnier is that you had matches run 15-13 in the third set where all players spent over 2 hours on the court for the mixed and still had to play singles and doubles that same day. I'm not comparing today
's spoiled stars to the women of yesterday. The idea that you think that doubles was a glorified practice session back in the day let's me know that you don't KNOW!

DA FOREHAND
Nov 5th, 2003, 08:23 PM
{meanwhile back in Steffi's hotel room} zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


I'm not impressed by doubles success, let me see what you can do when you have to cover the entire court alone.

Impressive doubles accomplishment Martina Hingis winning four Grand Slam titles w/four diff. partners.

Impressive Serena/Venus playing for fun and winning well over %80 of thier dubs. matches.

Steffi was smart she trained enough to not need doubles to "sharpen " her game, and only played when it might be fun/convient. Back in the day money was the prime motivator to play in ea. event.

bandabou
Nov 5th, 2003, 08:29 PM
Da Forehand is really funny. Money was the motivator back then...maybe, īcause back then they werenīt making millions and stuff.

irma
Nov 5th, 2003, 08:33 PM
I am glad steffi is asleep. I am sure she doesn't get much room for it these days;)

Kart
Nov 5th, 2003, 08:36 PM
She should tell Andre she's got a headache or something :tape:.

irma
Nov 5th, 2003, 08:37 PM
Andre left them alone for Houston;)

Evonne Goolagong
Nov 5th, 2003, 08:42 PM
Margaret Court was the best ever, thee all time greatest women's player to play the game in my opinion. In 1970 when she won all four grand slams, she played 30+ tournaments that year, Graf, Navratilova and players of today never put their neck on the line like that. To put it simply, Margaret kicked a??!

DA FOREHAND
Nov 5th, 2003, 08:45 PM
Margaret Court was the best ever, thee all time greatest women's player to play the game in my opinion. In 1970 when she won all four grand slams, she played 30+ tournaments that year, Graf, Navratilova and players of today never put their neck on the line like that. To put it simply, Margaret kicked a??!


They didn't have to. They could play 14 tournaments and make the same money, and I'm sure if Magaret was in Steffi's era she wouldn't have played 30 tournaments a year either. :rolleyes:

Evonne Goolagong
Nov 5th, 2003, 08:49 PM
They didn't have to. They could play 14 tournaments and make the same money, and I'm sure if Magaret was in Steffi's era she wouldn't have played 30 tournaments a year either. :rolleyes:

Margaret played because she loved the game, not money. When Margaret first married Barry, she took a year off because she wanted to travel and show him all the different places in the world. In short, Margaret already had money. Roll those eyes of yours when you're actually old enough and have seen enough of the tennis world to know what you are talking about.

DA FOREHAND
Nov 5th, 2003, 09:13 PM
The tour back then can't even be compared to the tour of the late eighties/90's

Evonne Goolagong
Nov 5th, 2003, 09:24 PM
The tour back then can't even be compared to the tour of the late eighties/90's


How can you comment on something you've never witnessed? But in an opposite way, I agree with you. The tour back then can't be compared to the tour of the late 80's and 90's, because every ten years it gets worse. The 70's were better than the 80's, the 80's better than the 90's, and the early 90's was better than what is going on now .... IMO. :)

tennisvideos
Nov 5th, 2003, 10:54 PM
Well said Evonne. I actually think the 70s was the greatest era for womens tennis and the line up of champions was phenomenal.

MacN - good comments.. Nancy Richey was a very stong player indeed, and in the USA rankings was ranked above Billie-Jean 4 times during the 60s (even though in the unofficial world rankings she was only ranked higher than BJK once).

Oizo
Nov 6th, 2003, 04:01 AM
Thanx Craig and Rollo. :) :wavey: I didnīt know in those times there were more tourneys...I thought less :o