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monicarules
Nov 4th, 2003, 10:21 AM
For me Monica is the greater one hands down.
Steffi's careern wouldn't have been nearly as good had Monica been always around. I'm not saying Monica was much better but at least better then the shnuz. What do you think?

skanky~skanketta
Nov 4th, 2003, 10:22 AM
what a FANTABULOUS thread :rolleyes:

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 10:27 AM
here we go.......................AGAIN!!

VivalaSeles
Nov 4th, 2003, 10:28 AM
I think you are selesrules trying to stir up trouble. Just my opinion.

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 10:32 AM
of course they're trying to stir up trouble

its a FACT that graf's greater

grandslams

graf 22
seles 9

Jarrett
Nov 4th, 2003, 10:34 AM
Neither! Anna Kournikova is the best!

monicarules
Nov 4th, 2003, 10:36 AM
of course they're trying to stir up trouble

its a FACT that graf's greater

grandslams

graf 22
seles 9

Not so fast, dude!
If it hadn't been for the stabbing, Graf's GS titiles would have been significantly less and Monica's would have been more.
The way Monica was dominating prior to the incident, it's fair to assume she would have won much more majors.
And of course Graf's career is much greater "thanks" to Monica's abesence in most part.

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 10:40 AM
steffi won loads of grandslams BEFORE seles was around when legends navratilova and evert were playing.

when monica came back- it was steffi that won the slams (95,96) monica won 1 (96) which steffi wasn't in

no point in saying IF, the facts remain the same.

GRAF IS THE GREATEST!!!!!!!

monicarules
Nov 4th, 2003, 10:42 AM
steffi won loads of grandslams BEFORE seles was around when legends navratilova and evert were playing.

when monica came back- it was steffi that won the slams (95,96) monica won 1 (96) which steffi wasn't in

no point in saying IF, the facts remain the same.

GRAF IS THE GREATEST!!!!!!!

When Monica came back, she wasn't the same as the pre-stabbing Seles, remember?

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 10:44 AM
When Monica came back, she wasn't the same as the pre-stabbing Seles, remember?

yes i know. the game had moved on.....seles couldnt keep up...graf could!

monicarules
Nov 4th, 2003, 10:47 AM
yes i know. the game had moved on.....seles couldnt keep up...graf could!

That's another wrong on your part. Monica was forced off the tour thanks to that German freak. The game hadn't changed much in Monica's absense and it was simply that Monica wasn't the same Monica when she came back. She wasn't as fit or confident... her career was ruined by one psycho!

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 10:51 AM
steffi leads their career meetings 10-5!

its sad that u have to find excuses for seles.

Errinella
Nov 4th, 2003, 11:44 AM
Both are them are brilliant players. Isn't that enough? Choosing one over the other is entirely subjective and largely pointless.

ktwtennis
Nov 4th, 2003, 11:47 AM
Yes, it's clear you're both biased, although I do think that james is being extreme--Monica suffered so much--you just can't blame her for the "tour moving on." I'd like to see how you would have handled her situation...:rolleyes:

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:02 PM
look dont be idiots, other players have their problems too.

seles's problems were just made very public

capriati overcame her problems just like many others

seles fans just like to hide behind the fact that she was stabbed so thaey can use it for an excuse that she cant win grandslams any more because of something that happened over 10 years ago.

VivalaSeles
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:04 PM
LOL ... comparing Monica Seles's problems with Capriati's. As if Monica was responsible for being stabbed.

vutt
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:06 PM
Both are them are brilliant players. Isn't that enough? Choosing one over the other is entirely subjective and largely pointless.

How can numbers (22 vs. 9) be subjective :confused:
they are always objective :worship:

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:06 PM
i'm just saying that everyone has their own INDIVIDUAL problems. unfortunately some like to blame it on their performance,when the truth is.....

VivalaSeles
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:10 PM
Of course everyone has their own individual problems.
But let's not compare a broken finger nail with a bankruptcy and let's not compare problems one is responsible for with problems one suffers because of external actions.

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:12 PM
Of course everyone has their own individual problems.
But let's not compare a broken finger nail with a bankruptcy and let's not compare problems one is responsible for with problems one suffers because of external actions.

i suppose it depends on how mentally strong the player is............

VivalaSeles
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:15 PM
You suppose wrongly. When you get stabbed in the back by a complete stranger, then you can - with the authority of knowledge, come here and preach about mental toughness in the face of non-provoked adversity.

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:17 PM
it happened over 10 years ago-U HAVE TO GET OVER IT! :)

VivalaSeles
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:20 PM
LOL and now you are trying to preach me :lol: Maybe you should be the one who has "to get over it". Get over being so touchy and so aggressive whenever Graf's record is questioned as in this thread.

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:21 PM
If monica was so affected by this then how come she won the aussie 96??? AFTER she was stabbed......

How come she couldnt win any more slams after that?

VivalaSeles
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:24 PM
Sorry but I am not in the mood for an argument. If you want to argue, your rightful companion is monicarules, for I suspect you were meant to be together and are soul mates.

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:26 PM
Sorry but I am not in the mood for an argument. If you want to argue, your rightful companion is monicarules, for I suspect you were meant to be together and are soul mates.

cuz u know i'm right, and have no comeback!!

graf will always be my hero- i will always stand up for her!

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:27 PM
monicarules knows i'm right too!!

VivalaSeles
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:28 PM
You are as right as selesrules/monicarules ever was. I grant you that.

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:30 PM
You are as right as selesrules/monicarules ever was. I grant you that.

nice debating with u:)

please dont think i'm a bastard, i only am when it comes to sticking up for steffi :)

VivalaSeles
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:34 PM
At least, you admit it ;)
Ok, it was nice talking to you too :) Just beware of selesrules/monicarules because he will try to test your strength in sticking up to steffi.

dubro
Nov 4th, 2003, 01:33 PM
i dont undertsnad the meaning of this thread :haha:

Graf - no matter

Kart
Nov 4th, 2003, 02:00 PM
The answer to this question is simple ...

Steffi got her share of Agassi's millions by having to marry him.

Monica got her share of Agassi's millions by going into business with him, therefore avoiding the (arguable) unpleasantry of consumating.

Now you tell me, who's the greater (and the smarter) :p.

Declan
Nov 4th, 2003, 03:18 PM
I would always be hesitant to include Monica in any Best Ever consideration due to her lack of a Wimbledon title. Yes, the events of spring 1993 WERE tragic but sadly they happened and every player's record has to stand by itself with no asteriks or PSs. Other players also had outside events that affected whether or how they played, albeit not as shocking or emotive as as in Monica's case. So for me Steffi was better, considerably so.

schris
Nov 4th, 2003, 03:21 PM
Steffi Graf :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

irma
Nov 4th, 2003, 03:31 PM
The answer to this question is simple ...

Steffi got her share of Agassi's millions by having to marry him.

Monica got her share of Agassi's millions by going into business with him, therefore avoiding the (arguable) unpleasantry of consumating.

Now you tell me, who's the greater (and the smarter) :p.

Steffi has the best of both, what more do you want? :lol:

alfajeffster
Nov 4th, 2003, 03:47 PM
This one always gets me hooked- I'm a sucker for this bad argument, and there's no leaving it alone. Steffi Graf, along with everyone else on the tour, didn't benefit from the unfortunate stabbing incident- she lost out. She lost her chief rival in what was fast becomming one of the all-time great rivalries. The saddest thing for tennis is that we will never know what might have been. Seles fans obviously are going to stand by Monica and say that she would have won most of those majors between the 93 French and the 95 U.S. Open. Considering Graf's winning head-to-head over Monica prior to the stabbing, and her total dominance over her after Monica's return, it is also possible to surmise that Graf would have won most of those majors anyway- even on clay.

What we do know is that Monica suffered great psychological trauma, and this, coupled with the fact that the little girl before the stabbing never really was a great athlete, and by 1995 she had grown into a pudgy, slower version of what she used to be, leads me to also think she may have slowed down even without the stabbing. She grew up into an adult during that time, and into her body.

I wish Monica Seles hadn't been stabbed, so we could have witnessed a great rivalry, however, at the same time, I still feel Steffi Graf is the better player, and certainly the better athlete.

Cybelle Darkholme
Nov 4th, 2003, 03:52 PM
why is graf the greatest? Because she has the most grandslam single titles? Well she doesnt Court does so I guess Margret Court is the greatest.

alfajeffster
Nov 4th, 2003, 03:56 PM
why is graf the greatest? Because she has the most grandslam single titles? Well she doesnt Court does so I guess Margret Court is the greatest.

If you really do think this- you are the only other person besides myself who I can have an intelligent conversation with regarding Margaret Court. You know, Margaret has suffered greatly from Billie Jean King's influence on the media. All you have to do is listen to the trained commentary-speak of Tracy Austin in the booth regarding this issue of all-time greatness. Billie Jean herself has for years touted Margaret's accomplishments as less-than-worth, saying the all too familiar "yeah, but 11 of her majors were in Australia when nobody played". Simply ain't true! The best women in the world in the 1960s were Australian- NOT American. Look at the Fed Cup record for the decade.

Kart
Nov 4th, 2003, 04:25 PM
Steffi has the best of both, what more do you want? :lol:

How about a rose to be named after her rather than a painting of a horse :tape:

Tratree
Nov 4th, 2003, 04:39 PM
Coulda, woulda, shoulda....this argument is old and neither side is likely to change their mind.

irma
Nov 4th, 2003, 04:41 PM
Steffi the horse was a winning horse not a painted horse;)

Kart
Nov 4th, 2003, 04:42 PM
LOL my mistake :angel:.

Bероника
Nov 4th, 2003, 05:46 PM
Monica,of course.

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 05:50 PM
Monica,of course.

:haha: :haha: some people live in a DREAM world!!!! :haha:

Bероника
Nov 4th, 2003, 05:55 PM
yeah and that Graf b**** is not included in my world.Thanks.

GO MONICA!!!

To me,Monica is the greatest.I was asked a question and I answered.

DA FOREHAND
Nov 4th, 2003, 05:59 PM
Steffi w/out a doubt. Monica never won Wimbledon, never won the Grand Slam, never beat Steffi on a fast hardcourt, never ended a season w/fewer than 5 losses. If they'd both retired in May of 1993 Steffi would still lead the h2h 6-4 and the number of slams 11(including Grand Slam/Gold Medal) 8.

maryjane
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:00 PM
every one knows very well that Monika was going to be the strongest player of all the times.
Unfortunately it happened what happened and her career will always have that IF near her results.
So that looking at the results,Steffi is the best.
But to me,Monika is the best and their matches in those years confirm what I say.
If she wasn't the best,why did Parke do what he did???

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:01 PM
Steffi w/out a doubt. Monica never won Wimbledon, never won the Grand Slam, never beat Steffi on a fast hardcourt, never ended a season w/fewer than 5 losses. If they'd both retired in May of 1993 Steffi would still lead the h2h 6-4 and the number of slams 11(including Grand Slam/Gold Medal) 8.

The perfect answer! couldnt have said it better myself :)

DA FOREHAND
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:05 PM
every one knows very well that Monika was going to be the strongest player of all the times.
Unfortunately it happened what happened and her career will always have that IF near her results.
So that looking at the results,Steffi is the best.
But to me,Monika is the best and their matches in those years confirm what I say.
If she wasn't the best,why did Parke do what he did???


Funny how Selestials call parche a crazy man, phycho and what not, then rationalize his thinking.

HE WAS INSANE! :rolleyes:

insane: not sane; not of sound mind; mentally deranged. :tape:

What part of INSANE don't you all understand? :wavey:

maryjane
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:06 PM
sorry tell me in 1993 how old was steffi???and monica???

Kart
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:06 PM
yeah and that Graf b**** is not included in my world.Thanks.

GO MONICA!!!

To me,Monica is the greatest.I was asked a question and I answered.

:lol: :yeah: veronika :hearts: :worship:

DA FOREHAND
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:08 PM
sorry tell me in 1993 how old was steffi???and monica???


irrelevant...

How old was Martina Hingis when Steffi beat her seven times?

How old was Martina Hingis when she beat Monica 15 times?

maryjane
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:09 PM
nobody rationalizes what he did.
but it's not possible to be so blind.

maryjane
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:10 PM
irrelevant...

How old was Martina Hingis when Steffi beat her seven times?

How old was Martina Hingis when she beat Monica 15 times?

it's not irrelevant 'cos being older steffi had more time to win than monica if u want to take the year 1993 as comparison.

irma
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:11 PM
Steffi is the greatest because she is my fav. since I like to repeat myself: I was also a Steffi fan at 29 april 93 so I don't see why I should change my opinion 1 day later because of some lunatic who had no respect for either Monica or Steffi

that's all :p

maryjane
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:12 PM
u could have the good taste to take as comparison the real seles who is that before Hamburg.Please,be honest.

DA FOREHAND
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:12 PM
nobody rationalizes what he did.
but it's not possible to be so blind.


You asked why he did what he did, I answered that he was insane. You seem to think, that he was thinking clearly and as a fan of anyone but Monica he did the proper thing.

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:13 PM
dont forget steffi won a gold medal at olympics

best monica could get was bronze

seles could NEVER have won 4 grandlams in a row like steffi did.

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:14 PM
(four grandslams in one year i mean by the way)

DA FOREHAND
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:15 PM
it's not irrelevant 'cos being older steffi had more time to win than monica if u want to take the year 1993 as comparison.
Steffi continued to win when the "new" generation came along, Monica...well not exactly.

How many titles did Monica win beating Davenport/Hingis/Serena/Venus in the final? :wavey:

Monica never was nor did she ever become quick enough about the court to beat Steffi on a fast surface.

maryjane
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:16 PM
come on please.if u ask tennis players how much they care about the olympics their answer will disappoint u...and monica played for the olimpics after hamburg.
i want u to admit that her career has almost finished that tragic day.

Bероника
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:16 PM
:kiss: Kart.

Excellent answer,Irma,that's why Monica is the greatest to me cause she is my favourite. :lol:

jenny161185
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:16 PM
Imo Monica I think she would have won wimbledon and the slam at some stage

maryjane
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:17 PM
please...those players were not playing when monica was the real monika.
if it was happened to steffi,i don't know if she would have had the guts to start a career from zero and to accept to do that against younger players...

DA FOREHAND
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:18 PM
come on please.if u ask tennis players how much they care about the olympics their answer will disappoint u...and monica played for the olimpics after hamburg.
i want u to admit that her career has almost finished that tragic day.

Wrong! Lindsay has stated numerous times that it's the greatest title she has, Venus also states it as very treasured.

btw Steffi considers French 99 as her fondest playing memory.

Davenport/Seles/Hingis :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

DA FOREHAND
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:20 PM
Really? Steffi was ranked outside the top fifty in 98, at age 29. Cameback to beat the entire new top ten win a slam and retire at the highest ever ranking #3.

irma
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:24 PM
I would not compare it with Monica's situation but Steffi definitely had to start from zero in 98 again. She was even unranked for a week

maryjane
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:25 PM
why was she ranked so far???
u can be honest to admit taht's not the same thing under the mental point of view.
Be honest!!!

dubro
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:25 PM
but monica was so proud to wil bronze medal last olympics (defeatin jelena, btw :mad: )

steffi won durin her career against navrat, seles, hingis and amny other good players...
maryjane, ammetti che la graf č stata pių forte. la seles poteva batterla solo in bruttezza :lol:

ciao! :wavey:

maryjane
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:27 PM
ho detto che la graf e'stata la piu' forte perche'qualcuno ha vietato a monica di esserlo.leggi bene il post.

alfajeffster
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:28 PM
I wonder who is fitter to this day:

Steffi Graf after the birth of two children in the past 2 years, or Monica Seles, who has been struggling with weight and injuries (caused by weight sometimes)?

irma
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:28 PM
why was she ranked so far???
u can be honest to admit taht's not the same thing under the mental point of view.
Be honest!!!

I said you can't compare it

and steffi had a big injury in 97 that's why she hardly played for 1,5 year.

DA FOREHAND
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:28 PM
Monica was co-#1 when she cameback, she won A.O 96 , and then what ? She mentally broke down mentally?

The chief reason Monica has won just one slam since 96 is her fitness, or lack thereof, and more players(not just Graf) able to exploit her lack of speed/reach, most famously Martina Hingis, who humilated her time and again.

DA FOREHAND
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:29 PM
I wonder who is fitter to this day:

Steffi Graf after the birth of two children in the past 2 years, or Monica Seles, who has been struggling with weight and injuries (caused by weight sometimes)?

Steffi

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:30 PM
miami 2000

hingis vs seles semi final :haha: :haha: :haha:

Frank Riley
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:31 PM
Monica did not get the chance to finish playing when she was in her prime because of the stabbing so it is not fair to compare them. Graf of course was number 1 longer and has a better record overall but Monica did beat graf so they are a good match up. I have to toss my hands in the air on this one because it is a hard question. Graf on paper is the best, but Monica was the best before the stabbing.

I like them both very much and they are legends. :worship:

Bероника
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:33 PM
There we go again with Monica's weight problems.No other player had to deal with such a difficult tragic situation as Monica,some others might not even have come back.Monica herselof could not have come back either,but she has a genuine love for the game.

Monica's game in her prime really had no equal.

GO MONICA!!!!

DA FOREHAND
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:37 PM
You're right in her prime her game was unique, but even as such she only beat Steffi Graf, four out of ten tries. In that period in time Steffi was the only player who could consistantly exploit her lack of reach and foot speed.

Frank Riley
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:38 PM
I agree very much, the stabbing was one moment in tennis that was shocking. :confused:

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:39 PM
when monica was dominating there were hardly any players who hit the ball hard, (except graf on the forehand)

monica comes back in 95 and she stars losing to players who can hit the ball as hard as her (like majoli, davenport)

this could suggest that seles could only dominate players she could overpower, where as steffi could beat players on the defence.

before steffi retired, she could handle the power of williams, davenport. seles couldn't!

SJW
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:41 PM
Steffi Graf

sorry :)

maryjane
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:51 PM
Monica was co-#1 when she cameback, she won A.O 96 , and then what ? She mentally broke down mentally?

The chief reason Monica has won just one slam since 96 is her fitness, or lack thereof, and more players(not just Graf) able to exploit her lack of speed/reach, most famously Martina Hingis, who humilated her time and again.

after three years of stop...it's not a year...

beckermeister
Nov 4th, 2003, 07:13 PM
Depends on how u define greatest? When I consider who's the better player in any sport, I always try to think of who's the better player when both players were at their best. In other words, if your life was on the line based on the outcome of a tennis match, who would u pick to play for u at their peak- Graf or Seles?

In that case, I would have to pick Seles because at her best I believe she was the better player (btw- I like Graf better :(). I would also take Serena over both of them.

For those who base greatest on careers - then it would be Graf without a doubt!

Interesting point on the careers even if Monica had been able to keep playing:


What we do know is that Monica suffered great psychological trauma, and this, coupled with the fact that the little girl before the stabbing never really was a great athlete, and by 1995 she had grown into a pudgy, slower version of what she used to be, leads me to also think she may have slowed down even without the stabbing. She grew up into an adult during that time, and into her body.

This may have occurred although playing tennis would have kept her in better shape. If Seles had never missed any time, I think that Graf would have still won more GS - but it would have been very close!

DA FOREHAND
Nov 4th, 2003, 07:14 PM
There's no excuse for Monica's lack of fitness, or failure to stick to a fitness routine.

VivalaSeles
Nov 4th, 2003, 08:47 PM
miami 2000

hingis vs seles semi final :haha: :haha: :haha:

Making fun of an injured player who dared to stay on court and got booed by the spectators. What does that say about you, james ?

DA FOREHAND
Nov 4th, 2003, 08:51 PM
Depends on how u define greatest? When I consider who's the better player in any sport, I always try to think of who's the better player when both players were at their best. In other words, if your life was on the line based on the outcome of a tennis match, who would u pick to play for u at their peak- Graf or Seles?

In that case, I would have to pick Seles because at her best I believe she was the better player (btw- I like Graf better :(). I would also take Serena over both of them.

For those who base greatest on careers - then it would be Graf without a doubt!

Interesting point on the careers even if Monica had been able to keep playing:



This may have occurred although playing tennis would have kept her in better shape. If Seles had never missed any time, I think that Graf would have still won more GS - but it would have been very close!

I would pick Steffi, or Martina Navratilova...at thier peaks they had the sports longest consecutive match win streaks.

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 08:59 PM
Making fun of an injured player who dared to stay on court and got booed by the spectators. What does that say about you, james ?

She was sooo not injured! she would have pulled if she was, hasnt stopped her before!

one again...seles fans making excuses

VivalaSeles
Nov 4th, 2003, 09:10 PM
I presume:

a. either you are completely blind.

b. or you did not see the match.

jimbo mack
Nov 4th, 2003, 09:17 PM
I presume:

a. either you are completely blind.

b. or you did not see the match.

yes i SAW the match, she couldnt keep the ball in court! :haha:

VivalaSeles
Nov 4th, 2003, 09:20 PM
She could not move.

rada
Nov 4th, 2003, 10:22 PM
There's no excuse for Monica's lack of fitness, or failure to stick to a fitness routine.

no not really just that she could of died when she got stabed.......your a loser!!!!!!!!

rada
Nov 4th, 2003, 10:23 PM
monica was by far..........

LiliaLee-Frazier
Nov 5th, 2003, 12:07 AM
Neither! Anna Kournikova is the best!


NO,,,Amy Frazier is ! hehe :devil: :angel:

LiliaLee-Frazier
Nov 5th, 2003, 12:08 AM
yes i SAW the match, she couldnt keep the ball in court! :haha:

I'd say B ;)