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ys
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:03 AM
It will come to interesting situation. There is no special descriptive regulations for special seeding, and even though Special Rankings regulations suggest that WTA Tour has a right to seed a Gold Exempt player with Special Rankings, they don't specify how. Also I seem to remember an interview with a WTA official who said that they would do Special Seedings in exceptional circumstances, but special seeding of more than one player at a time is out of question ( because it basically breaks the concept of "exceptional" ). And now we have a total of three players who could probably ask for that - Williams sisters and Seles.

I wonder which one would they pick? Serena though seems to be eliminating that possibility for herself by playing Hopman Cup, that starts one day before her 6 month period ends. Venus or Seles? By regulations, it should be Seles, because they will be able to seed Venus anyway, and Seles won't be seeded without Special seedings..

lizchris
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:17 AM
Serena knows she won't need it because she is the only player in the top ten whose ranking is safe until next years AO. Venus is going to need it and probably will get it since she is not going to play any tournaments until the AO (though she is scheduled to play a Hong Kong exebition).

Jericho
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:20 AM
does hopman cup count as a tournament?

ys
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:26 AM
does hopman cup count as a tournament?

In a context , yes. It is on official WTA calendar, so playing it signals the end of injury layoff.

Jericho
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:27 AM
In a context , yes. It is on official WTA calendar, so playing it signals the end of injury layoff.

is it on the calendar? i thought it was just an ITF affiliated event :confused:

lizchris
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:30 AM
is it on the calendar? i thought it was just an ITF affiliated event :confused:

It is but any matches played counts towards the player's W/L record for the year.

ys
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:33 AM
is it on the calendar? i thought it was just an ITF affiliated event :confused:

Doesn't matter. It signals- "I can play tennis, I am no longer injured", meaning the player could have opted to play pointed tournaments of the same week, for instance.

ys
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:38 AM
If they can give a special seeding, why not 2? They say it's out of question, but looking at the current situation I'm sure they are already changing their mind.

I am sure they would prefer not to give any special seedings, because no matter how you put it, it is a controversy. They will try to avoid it. I can imagine them moving Venus to #5 at AO, which looks like a big bump, but changes pretty much nothing given the way they make draws right now. And they might bump Seles to #17.

mishar
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:42 AM
I don't believe that they can only "special seed" one at a time. I think the whole thing is completely arbitrary and just what they need to do at the time. They make up the rules as they go along.

I don't think Serena needs a special seeding. She will be #3 at the Australian no matter what, and after that while she may fall further if she doesn't defend her title, she'll still have a big cushion.

Venus I think is most likely to get a seeding, maybe #4, maybe in the top 8

I doubt they'll give Monica a special seeding although i wish they would.

Maybe they'll give it to all three

ys
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:43 AM
It wouldn't be controversial if there was clear rules about seeding and injuries.

We are not talking abou what "would".. We are talking about what "is"..

Knizzle
Nov 4th, 2003, 01:33 AM
If Venus asks for a special seeding, she will get it and it will probably be #4 which will also be her protected ranking. Serena can get a protected ranking of #1 and a special seeding of #2 if she wants, but if she and Venus decide they don't want to be on the same side, Serena can just stay at #3 and Venus will have her seeding of 4 and then they both have the opportunity to defend their points.

Andrew.
Nov 4th, 2003, 01:47 AM
If they do give out the SSR, Monica will probably get it. Simply looking forward, they will realize it may be her final AO. Venus and Serena still have a good four or five years, but next year will most likely be Monica's last. :sad:

ys
Nov 4th, 2003, 01:48 AM
If Venus asks for a special seeding, she will get it and it will probably be #4 which will also be her protected ranking. Serena can get a protected ranking of #1 and a special seeding of #2 if she wants, but if she and Venus decide they don't want to be on the same side, Serena can just stay at #3 and Venus will have her seeding of 4 and then they both have the opportunity to defend their points.

Wishful thinking. If Capriati is #4 by then, there is no way they will bump the player who won it two out of last three times to someone who has never been a champion. It would be too controversial. They won't do that. We can bet on that.

Knizzle
Nov 4th, 2003, 01:53 AM
Wishful thinking. If Capriati is #4 by then, there is no way they will bump the player who won it two out of last three times to someone who has never been a champion. It would be too controversial. They won't do that. We can bet on that.

The Aussie has no control over the special seedings, they reserve the right to seed where they want, but they follow the WTA RANKINGS for seedings. This is Venus Williams we are talking about. They aren't going to give Capriati any special respect at the Aussie. If she has a special seeding of #4 she WILL be #4. If GS decided to seed by past results then Venus would have been #2 at Wimbledon and #1 at the US Open this year, but she wasn't. You make not sense whatsoever ys. That's a typical trait of a hater though.

ys
Nov 4th, 2003, 01:56 AM
The Aussie has no control over the special seedings, they reserve the right to seed where they want, but they follow the WTA RANKINGS for seedings. This is Venus Williams we are talking about. They aren't going to give Capriati any special respect at the Aussie. If she has a special seeding of #4 she WILL be #4.

There is no such thing as "Special Seeding". As I said , try to find any definitions or regulation on that - you won't. "That is venus Williams we are talking about".. Who TF is Venus Williams? What is it that makes her special ( for people other than Williams-fan-moron-base ) and better than Capriati or even Davenport? Nothing.

Knizzle
Nov 4th, 2003, 02:03 AM
There is no such thing as "Special Seeding". As I said , try to find any definitions or regulation on that - you won't. "That is venus Williams we are talking about".. Who TF is Venus Williams? What is it that makes her special ( for people other than Williams-fan-moron-base ) and better than Capriati or even Davenport? Nothing.

She is the second biggest name on tour that's who she is. Why should Venus not be able to get a seed in front of Capriati?? You find a definition or relegation on that. Use your brain. Compare the status of Venus Williams to Jennifer Capriati and you will see why the Aussie wouldn't try to keep Venus from being the #4 seed. By the way, this article from the WTA is going to make you look like a fool:

How Davenport's Special Ranking & Seeding Was Factored
August 07, 2002

Lindsay Davenport requested and the Sanex WTA Tour granted her a Special Ranking upon her return to the Tour. Normally, a player may not be seeded when she enters a tournament using her Special Ranking, however under the Rules, in extenuating circumstances, the Sanex WTA Tour has the authority to seed a player while she is playing under the Special Ranking Rule.

Davenport was number one (1) in the world in Singles when she was injured. The Tour reviewed her unique situation and under Tour rules determined that in addition to a Special Ranking, Lindsay would receive a Special Seeding in Singles.

Following are the conditions of Davenport’s Special Ranking/Special Seeding:

*
SPECIAL RANKING: Davenport was ranked #1 in the world in Singles and #25 in Doubles when she was forced to stop playing, therefore her Special Ranking in Singles is #1 and in Doubles it is # 25.
*
SPECIAL SEEDING: Based on her average ranking during the course of 2001, the Tour has granted her a Singles Special Seeding as if she were the number three (3) ranked player. (During 2001, her average ranking was #2.7 in the world).
*
HOW IT WORKS: Davenport will be treated as if she is the number 3 ranked player in the world, however, the actual #3 ranked player will always be seeded ahead of the Special Ranking #3 player.
*
If all of the top 3 ranked players are entered in a given tournament, Davenport will be seeded #4; if 2 of the top 3 are entered, she will be seeded # 3; if 1 of the top 3 is entered, she would be #2 and if none of the current top 3 ranked players in the world are entered Davenport would be seeded #1.
*
This Special Seeding will be implemented in the first 4 tournaments she plays upon her return to competition. After these four (4) tournaments, The Tour will review the situation and determine whether or not the Special Seeding shall be granted for her remaining 4 Special Ranking tournaments.

Davenport has not been granted a Special Seeding in Doubles. Her Doubles Special Ranking is #25 and she will not be eligible for seeding when she uses her Doubles Special Ranking.

-------------------------------------------------

Don't mess with me ys, I don't talk shit to hear myself talk. Best believe that I will come up with something to support my arguments.

AjdeNate!
Nov 4th, 2003, 02:04 AM
Monica's IPR is 18. I am inclined to think AO committee will seed her #16. Just me.

Infiniti2001
Nov 4th, 2003, 02:08 AM
Who TF is Venus Williams? What is it that makes her special

The 40 million dollar reebok "American citizen" :tape:

ys
Nov 4th, 2003, 02:09 AM
[all obsolete bullshit snipped]

Don't mess with me ys, I don't talk shit to hear myself talk. Best believe that I will come up with something to support my arguments.

OK, so based on suggested approach she should be seeded #2 ahead of Serena, right? If it is not nonsense, then what is?

Knizzle
Nov 4th, 2003, 02:42 AM
OK, so based on suggested approach she should be seeded #2 ahead of Serena, right? If it is not nonsense, then what is?

I said she should be seeded #4, I don't know where you got #2 from. And don't add things to my quote that I didn't write. You were wrong so just accept it.

ys
Nov 4th, 2003, 03:03 AM
I said she should be seeded #4, I don't know where you got #2 from. And don't add things to my quote that I didn't write. You were wrong so just accept it.

How would you get the #4 computed from what you wrote? Method? Why #4? Not #10? Or not #1?

Knizzle
Nov 4th, 2003, 03:11 AM
How would you get the #4 computed from what you wrote? Method? Why #4? Not #10? Or not #1?

I didn't "write" anything. That was from the WTA website. #4 because her average ranking before she got injured will be somewhere between 2.5 and 3 She can't take the current #3's seed so she will fall to the #4 seed. No reason for her to be #1 don't be silly.

disposablehero
Nov 4th, 2003, 03:45 AM
The logical answer is to "special seed" all 3, or none. Monica certainly deserves it, hell, #18 was already her lowest rank since 1989, and she's been out 4 weeks longer than the Williams. While a "special seed" wouldn't really make a major difference for Serena at the OZ Open, it certainly could later.

Hurley
Nov 4th, 2003, 03:55 AM
Serena won't get one, and if she defends her title, it won't matter, since she'll then probably stay ranked 3-4 until Wimbledon, and then she'll have played half the season so any special consideration should be over with anyway.

But then what? Venus and Serena have been out for the same amount of time, so to give Venus one and not Serena would be an admission that Venus needs help. That doesn't sound too good.

Seles...that's a tough call. It's not like she was playing spectacularly before her layoff (i.e. Grand Slam threat, no matter what people say), though she was playing well. But she will be around #60 then...to move her to #16 or higher would be tough to defend.

Jericho
Nov 4th, 2003, 04:44 AM
But then what? Venus and Serena have been out for the same amount of time, so to give Venus one and not Serena would be an admission that Venus needs help. That doesn't sound too good.

why slump venus and serena together, they are two different players ya know...and venus has played 1 tournament less which makes a big difference considering they've played less than 10 tournaments

Hurley
Nov 4th, 2003, 04:49 AM
Right. Get it? Oh. No.

I "lumped them together" because they both played their last match on the same frickin' day. With me so far?

That means that if you give one special consideration and not the other, it doesn't make any sense.

It has nothing to do with them being the same person, they stopped playing tennis on THE SAME DAY.

Think.

tennisIlove09
Nov 4th, 2003, 04:49 AM
I'm sure Venus will be #4 seed in Australia, and Seles will be #16 or #18 whatever her average was BEFORE she was injured...which would actually be in the top 10. No offense to players like Dementieve-Myskina-Sugiyama-Rubin, but Seles/Venus should be seeded higher then they are, in every event they play.

Jericho
Nov 4th, 2003, 04:53 AM
Right. Get it? Oh. No.

I "lumped them together" because they both played their last match on the same frickin' day. With me so far?

That means that if you give one special consideration and not the other, it doesn't make any sense.

It has nothing to do with them being the same person, they stopped playing tennis on THE SAME DAY.

Think.

umm...right

Think.

I was talking about how you said that it would be an admission that Venus needs help. I do realize they haven't play for the same amount of time...anyways
:rolleyes:

Chance
Nov 4th, 2003, 04:57 AM
this is getting too messy... I just don't see how the wta or Ausopen will give them a special seed.

tennisIlove09
Nov 4th, 2003, 05:00 AM
this is getting too messy... I just don't see how the wta or Ausopen will give them a special seed.

Because, no top player will want to face Venus in the 4th RD Aussie...or Seles maybe 1st, 2nd or 3rd. That's why. It's fairer for EVERYONE, even it means some other players are moved down.

Hurley
Nov 4th, 2003, 05:01 AM
umm...right

Think.

I was talking about how you said that it would be an admission that Venus needs help. I do realize they haven't play for the same amount of time...anyways
:rolleyes:

Because I said that they wouldn't give Serena a special seeding (there isn't any point to do so yet), so if they DID give Venus one, it would look like they think Venus needs help. Because the logical thing to do would be to treat them both the same since they stopped playing tennis on the same day.

Which I said in the post to which you took exception. Did you read it?

ys
Nov 4th, 2003, 05:04 AM
Because, no top player will want to face Venus in the 4th RD Aussie...or Seles maybe 1st, 2nd or 3rd. That's why. It's fairer for EVERYONE, even it means some other players are moved down.

Yes, no one would want to face them. But everyone would want to face those players seeded high instead of them on later stages of the tournament. So some will suffer, some will benefit. It's OK.

Hurley
Nov 4th, 2003, 05:05 AM
Nice signature, ys. Do you like mine? :)

disposablehero
Nov 4th, 2003, 05:15 AM
Because, no top player will want to face Venus in the 4th RD Aussie...or Seles maybe 1st, 2nd or 3rd. That's why. It's fairer for EVERYONE, even it means some other players are moved down.

Not fairer for the players dropped to 5th, 9th, 17th seed.

Hurley
Nov 4th, 2003, 05:18 AM
Not fairer for the players dropped to 5th, 9th, 17th seed.

An excellent point.

ys
Nov 4th, 2003, 05:20 AM
Nice signature, ys. Do you like mine? :)

Great one, Hurley.. So true..

tennisIlove09
Nov 4th, 2003, 05:32 AM
Not fairer for the players dropped to 5th, 9th, 17th seed.

I don't recall any players being upset at last year's US Open when Davenport was given the #4 seed (or was it #3?). Players realize that they are given the seeding because had it NOT been for the injury, they would be there anyways.

Knizzle
Nov 4th, 2003, 05:40 AM
I don't recall any players being upset at last year's US Open when Davenport was given the #4 seed (or was it #3?). Players realize that they are given the seeding because had it NOT been for the injury, they would be there anyways.

Exactly, Dokic was bumped to #5, but she didn't complain because she didn't want to see Lindsay earlier in the tournament.

oddkayla
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:23 AM
If Venus asks for the special ranking there isnt any basis for them refusing, otherwise it brings into question issues of fairness and what have you. She just might ask for it, and Serena may not, considering that she might feel being seeded one and three is not all that different.

Then again, all this speculation will not help. We just have to wait for the 2004 season to begin and all shall be revealed.

rfs1999
Nov 4th, 2003, 06:44 AM
Go Monica!

sartrista7
Nov 4th, 2003, 08:08 AM
I don't recall any players being upset at last year's US Open when Davenport was given the #4 seed (or was it #3?). Players realize that they are given the seeding because had it NOT been for the injury, they would be there anyways.

Uh, I seem to remember Dokic bitching about it quite a lot... and while she didn't complain, there was a general feeling that in one of the warm-up tournaments, Monica shouldn't have been bumped in favour of Lindsay.

I didn't agree with Lindsay's special seeding then, and I don't think any of Venus, Serena and Monica should get one now. Seedings should be earned by the matches a player plays, and none of them have played those matches (whereas the players who would be #4, #8, #16 have), and to say "they would have been there had it not for their injury" is extraordinarily facile: firstly, you cannot say that with 100% certainty, and secondly, we are not dealing with what would have been, we are dealing with what is.

Re: Venus' special seeding... I think it will depend who's #4 by AO. They can't justify bumping Jennifer or Lindsay down, but they can certainly justify bumping Elena or Nastya. If Amélie is #4... there are equally strong arguments either way.

Knizzle
Nov 4th, 2003, 08:15 AM
Uh, I seem to remember Dokic bitching about it quite a lot... and while she didn't complain, there was a general feeling that in one of the warm-up tournaments, Monica shouldn't have been bumped in favour of Lindsay.

I didn't agree with Lindsay's special seeding then, and I don't think any of Venus, Serena and Monica should get one now. Seedings should be earned by the matches a player plays, and none of them have played those matches (whereas the players who would be #4, #8, #16 have), and to say "they would have been there had it not for their injury" is extraordinarily facile: firstly, you cannot say that with 100% certainty, and secondly, we are not dealing with what would have been, we are dealing with what is.

Re: Venus' special seeding... I think it will depend who's #4 by AO. They can't justify bumping Jennifer or Lindsay down, but they can certainly justify bumping Elena or Nastya. If Amélie is #4... there are equally strong arguments either way.

The point of the special seeding is so that a player who is really good and only lost their ranking due to injury of 6 months or more doesn't get a low seed therefore upsetting the balance of the draw by knocking out a higher ranked player in the earlier rounds.

samhatz
Nov 4th, 2003, 08:42 AM
Hey guys this is simple!

* Serena will NOT get a special seed as she will be #3 anyways and the highest they could move her to is #2. They only do special rank for significant differences.

* Venus may qualify for the #5 seed as her average rank actually puts her at 3 point something, meaning she will need to be seeded below the #4 ranked player.

* Monica may be given consideration, and considering her pull power at the Australian is likely to receive the #18 seed due to average rank.

It's not about hating the Williams' at all - I like them. They will be there and they will have the spots they have earnt. They'll still do the necessary damage anyways.

For those bumped to #9 and #17 - I foresee little damage as they are likely to play someone similarly ranked at the designated round as usual.

It is the person bumped from #32 out of the seedings who will actually suffer. Instead of facing another seed at the earliest Rd 3, they can face a top seed in Rd 1 or at the latest, Rd 2.

But they all know this before it starts, and they will be well aware of this by now and be preparing themselves!

Hurley
Nov 4th, 2003, 08:47 AM
The point of the special seeding is so that a player who is really good and only lost their ranking due to injury of 6 months or more doesn't get a low seed therefore upsetting the balance of the draw by knocking out a higher ranked player in the earlier rounds.

In the first post it is clearly stated that there is NO Special Seeding rule. It has nothing to do with the six-month injury ranking or anything. It has to do with the whims of the WTA at that particular moment. Maybe they'll do nothing. We just don't know.

The Lindsay thing was for Lindsay. The Steffi thing was for Steffi. Every other player with injury rankings had to play unseeded even if the Injury Ranking would have put them in seeded position. It's up to the WTA and the tournaments to deal with these things as they see fit.

Since Venus, Serena, and Monica are superstars, they probably will get special treatment, but there isn't anything set in stone that would guarantee any sort of assurance as to what they will do at the moment.

We have to just wait and see.

TheBoiledEgg
Nov 4th, 2003, 09:55 AM
WTA do whatever they feel like
as i've stated before it should be ONE rule for all.
screw the Special Seedings.
its the players who drop out of obscurity that really suffer (aka Svensson, Panova & Kremer for 2004)


**And as for Venus not getting a injury rank/Special Seed for playing Hopman Cup then thats not true.

it starts from the START date of your LAST tournament (Wimbledon was on June 23rd), so she's be eligible from Dec 23.
anyway season 2004 starts on Jan 5
Hopman Cup starts Jan 4, they could start US on Jan 5 if that wasnt the case.

The Crow
Nov 4th, 2003, 11:26 AM
I hate the special seedings. Injury is part of the job. If you're good enough you'll get where you belong without a special seeding anyway.