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View Full Version : White Couple Says No Blacks Can Help Deliver its Baby -- the Hospital Complies


Cam'ron Giles
Oct 17th, 2003, 05:52 PM
Posted October 3, 2003 – Black employees of a Philadelphia-area hospital were
barred from a White patient's room by supervisors after her husband insisted
that only Whites assist with the delivery of her baby.

Supervisors said that they ordered Black staff to comply with the man's
demands only to avoid a conflict between him and hospital staff, but they
acknowledged that their directive violated Abington Memorial Hospital's own
policy.

"The whole incident has greatly upset many of our employees who … perceived
that we were acquiescing to the family's wishes," said Meg McGoldrick, vice
president of the hospital. "We were wrong. We should have followed our policy."

Abington Memorial's president, Richard L. Jones Jr., sent a memo apologizing
to staff and reiterating the hospital's misstep.

Many employees, including doctors, nurses and service providers, saying they
were offended by the decision, complained to the NAACP. No formal complaint
was filed with the organization, however.

"I don't see why and how a hospital could justify accommodating a request
that the professionals attending to a patient be of a particular background,"
Barr Morrison, director of the Philadelphia Anti-Defamation League, told The
Philadelphia Inquirer. "Certainly, it's demoralizing for the people who work
there."

Hospital security said it kept a close eye on the man and his wife to ensure
that no violence occurred.

The man's wife had been admitted to the hospital during the week of September
7 and remained in the hospital for a few days.

In addition to the memo of apology, hospital officials said they held
meetings, formalized plans on how to handle similar situations and strengthened
the
anti-discrimination policy.

Do you think the hospital would have issued the same directive if it had been
a Black requesting that no Whites be allowed in the room?

Ballbuster
Oct 17th, 2003, 05:58 PM
:rolleyes:

why you looking to start shit on the board. Grow up already.

Cam'ron Giles
Oct 17th, 2003, 05:59 PM
Oh lord...here we go...If it aint Mr Mandigo himself...:rolleyes:

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 05:59 PM
:rolleyes:

why you looking to start shit on the board. Grow up already.

Yeah, follow the Ballbuster's example.

Kart
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:01 PM
Was it just the husband who objected or did the wife object as well ?

Cam'ron Giles
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:04 PM
Was it just the husband who objected or did the wife object as well ?


Wait a minute Kart...Let me get them on their mobile...I will get back to you... ;)

griffin
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:06 PM
According to the Philidelphia Inquirer, it was the father:

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/6928671.htm

The hospital's posted an appology on its website:
http://www.amh.org/frontpage/AMHOpenLtr.pdf

Have to admit - I thought (hoped) that this was an urban legend at first.

doloresc
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:09 PM
http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/nation/6924319.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

Why a Philadelphia hospital gave in to a racist demand
Supervisors said they sought only to avoid a confrontation.
By OLIVER PRICHARD
Philadelphia Inquirer

For several days in early September, supervisors at Abington Memorial Hospital told African American employees to stay out of a patient's room after a man ordered that no blacks assist in the delivery of his child.

Despite a hospital policy stating that "care will be provided on a nondiscriminatory basis," maternity ward staffers accommodated the man's wishes.

The decision offended many employees and prompted hospital president Richard L. Jones Jr. to issue a statement calling the situation "morally reprehensible."

Hospital vice president Meg McGoldrick said the problems began when a pregnant woman's husband insisted that only white employees could enter his wife's room.

"The staff informed our African American employees that there was a volatile situation, and they suggested that they not interact with the family," she said. "In some cases, they actually told employees that they probably ought not to go into the room."

The supervisors had good intentions and sought only to avoid a confrontation between the man, who was white, and hospital staff, McGoldrick said. Doctors, nurses and service employees were among those affected by the decision.

"The whole incident has greatly upset many of our employees who... perceived that we were acquiescing to the family's wishes," McGoldrick said in an interview. "We were wrong. We should have followed our policy."

Citing patient privacy law, hospital officials said they could not release information about the man or his wife, or details of her medical treatment.

She was admitted the week of Sept. 7. McGoldrick would say only that the couple, accompanied by their young child, were at the hospital "several days."

The man did not threaten violence and police were not called, although hospital security monitored the situation closely, McGoldrick said.

NAACP is notified

The Philadelphia office of the NAACP received calls about the incident, but no one filed a formal complaint. J. Whyatt Mondesire, president of the Philadelphia NAACP, was not available for comment.

Efforts to reach staffers from the hospital's maternity section were unsuccessful.

Abington is a 508-bed hospital that serves patients from Montgomery and Bucks Counties and Philadelphia. Following the breach of policy, hospital administrators have taken several steps, including:

Personally apologizing to staffers who were told not to enter the patient's room.

Sending a letter on Sept. 16 to all employees and volunteers, in which Jones promised to "better address unconscionable circumstances like this."

Holding staff meetings and forming a "diversity task force" of hospital employees to develop a plan for similar problems in the future.

Hiring consultants to help managers handle sensitive cultural issues.

Revising the hospital's antidiscrimination policy to immediately notify high-level administrators when such problems occur.

'Inexcusable' decision

Despite those efforts, the decision to restrict black employees from fully performing their work for several days was "inexcusable," said Barry Morrison, director of the Anti-Defamation League's regional office in Philadelphia.

"I don't see why and how a hospital could justify accommodating a request that the professionals attending to a patient be of a particular background," Morrison said. "Certainly, it's demoralizing for the people who work there."

Carol Bayley, a medical ethicist for Catholic Health Care West, a San Francisco-based network of 41 hospitals, said Abington Hospital had failed its responsibilities to employees and the community while accommodating someone's racial preference.

"This was a fundamental disrespect of these professionals' skills and their fundamental dignities," Bayley said. "Hospitals are public citizens, and like any other big institution, they have to stand for integrity. A hospital needs to stand against this undercurrent of racism in our society."

gentenaire
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:10 PM
Yeah, follow the Ballbuster's example.

:haha:

doloresc
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:11 PM
According to the Philidelphia Inquirer, it was the father:

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/6928671.htm

The hospital's posted an appology on its website:
http://www.amh.org/frontpage/AMHOpenLtr.pdf

Have to admit - I thought (hoped) that this was an urban legend at first.

griffin, you beat me to it and with even better sources. :o

and, yes, i was hoping it was one of those internet hoaxes as well.

Kart
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:13 PM
Wait a minute Kart...Let me get them on their mobile...I will get back to you... ;)

It's cheaper to call their land line I'm sure :p.

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:14 PM
Honestly, I don't like that, but I can understand that.

Cam'ron Giles
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:17 PM
Honestly, I don't like that, but I can understand that.


Why am I not suprised... :rolleyes:

The Crow
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:18 PM
The father should have been banned from the hospital.

doloresc
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:18 PM
Honestly, I don't like that, but I can understand that.

ys, you can understand the man's actions, the hospital's or both?

Cam'ron Giles
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:19 PM
It's cheaper to call their land line I'm sure :p.


But I would not want to disturb the precious bundle of joy...No, I always speak to them on the celly... :cool:

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:19 PM
ys, you can understand the man's actions, the hospital's or both?

I can understand every side of this story. I think hospital did the right thing.

Kart
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:22 PM
Actually the hospital's decision doesn't surprise me - hospitals are always so desperate to focus on patients' needs and satisfaction that they don't mind upsetting their employees :rolleyes:.

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:23 PM
Actually the hospital's decision doesn't surprise me - hospitals are always so desperate to focus on patients' needs and satisfaction that they don't mind upsetting their employees :rolleyes:.

And I think that's the right approach. Satisfying those who suffers rather than those who is doing their job.

Kart
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:25 PM
But I would not want to disturb the precious bundle of joy...No, I always speak to them on the celly... :cool:

You're so considerate :worship:.

Maybe you could send them a text - that's fairly quiet and it saves you having to actually talk to them :tape:.

Josh
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:25 PM
And I think that's the right approach. Satisfying those who suffers rather than those who is doing their job.

I didn't know the father was suffering? :confused:

doloresc
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:26 PM
I can understand every side of this story. I think hospital did the right thing.

i agree. the baby's life was the priority. he/she will one day learn the controversy surrounding his/her birth at abington memorial. hopefully his/her father won't pass on his racist views displayed in this situation.

Kart
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:26 PM
And I think that's the right approach. Satisfying those who suffers rather than those who is doing their job.

I'm pretty sure it was the wife who was giving birth to the child and not her husband :confused:

The Crow
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:28 PM
And I think that's the right approach. Satisfying those who suffers rather than those who is doing their job.

Not really. It's not because one is suffering one can ask things that are clearly racist based. However in this case, there is an innocent child involved, so you have a point there.

Still the father should imo have been banned from the hospital and then it was the wife's decision what to do. But that's probably not legal :confused:

Cam'ron Giles
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:29 PM
I'm pretty sure it was the wife who was giving birth to the child and not her husband :confused:
:lol: :lol:

ys is so sympathetic in situations like these...so a nice guy... :worship: :rolleyes:

Josh
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:29 PM
Not really. It's not because one is suffering one can ask things that are clearly racist based. However in this case, there is an innocent child involved, so you have a point there.

Still the father should imo have been banned from the hospital and then it was the wife's decision what to do. But that's probably not legal :confused:

Excluding people because of their skin colour isn't legal either.

The Crow
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:31 PM
Excluding people because of their skin colour isn't legal either.

Yeah I know, still I'm just pointing out that from the hospital's perspective it wasn't an easy decision.

Martian Willow
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:32 PM
...I wonder how longer he would have insisted for if they'd refused...? :)

The Crow
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:32 PM
But that the hospital has made the wrong decision is pretty clear to me.

Cam'ron Giles
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:34 PM
Excluding people because of their skin colour isn't legal either.

Yes, but that would not be the case here...it is about a violation of hospital policy which the suites at the hospital did'nt mind doing...:rolleyes:

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:35 PM
I'm pretty sure it was the wife who was giving birth to the child and not her husband :confused:

We are talking about a person who was at that moment in the state of very strong emotional stress, and most likely was inadequate. And not fulfilling such an easy request could only make things worse. Besides, we don't know the story of this family. Giving a birth is puting a person on a brink of emotional and physical capacity, and any push into the wrong direction can result in dire consequences. The husband could have known something about his wife that anyone else didn't..

They should have apologised to their employees internally, the story should not have been made public. That it was made public makes the one who made it public look a troublemaker.

People who are under strong stress should not be really judged harshly. I know it from my own experience. Last year for two weeks i was under very strong psychological and emotional stress, because of some problems, and I could not really handle that, it was too much. And remembering now what I was saying or doing in last days of those two weeks makes me think that I was really almost crazy back then and makes me think how tolerant those around me were.

Josh
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:38 PM
We are talking about a person who was at that moment in the state of very strong emotional stress, and most likely was inadequate. And not fulfilling such an easy request could only make things worse. Besides, we don't know the story of this family. Giving a birth is puting a person on a brink of emotional and physical capacity, and any push into the wrong direction can result in dire consequences. The husband could have known something about his wife that anyone else didn't..

They should have apologised to their employees internally, the story should not have been made public. That it was made public makes the one who made it public look a troublemaker.

People who are under strong stress should not be really judged harshly. I know it from my own experience. Last year for two weeks i was under very strong psychological and emotional stress, because of some problems, and I could not really handle that, it was too much. And remembering now what I was saying or doing in last days of those two weeks makes me think that I was really almost crazy back then and makes me think how tolerant those around me were.

:bs:

There is no reason that can justify this kind of request, certainly not emotional stress. :rolleyes:

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:40 PM
:bs:

There is no reason that can justify this kind of request, certainly not emotional stress. :rolleyes:

You are probably yet too young to understand that all that matters in a work of medical institution is the final result, and everything should be done with that single goal in mind.

Ballbuster
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:41 PM
Yeah, follow the Ballbuster's example.


You, shutup!


:wavey: I see there is a new drug they are marketing, its call Effexor - better rush.

The Crow
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:49 PM
ys, the fact stays that he is probably just a racist.

Josh
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:50 PM
You are probably yet too young to understand that all that matters in a work of medical institution is the final result, and everything should be done with that single goal in mind.

The final result was to deliver a baby by the people who were best trained to do so. If the father did not want black people to assist his wife he could have taken her to another hospital or let her give birth at home with a white midwife.

But anyway, I hope he's consistent in his times of "emotional stress" and if he ever has an accident and needs a blood transfusion, he will also refuse the blood of a black person.

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 07:04 PM
ys, the fact stays that he is probably just a racist.

That is completely different matter and has nothing to do with hospital.

Medical operations are too subtle matter. And preferences or requests of patients can be based on absolutely strange prejudices.

For instance, in my dental clinic, same procedures was done to me few times by different female doctors and few times by different make doctors. And my impression was that each time when it ws done by a male doctor it was done a better way. Impression from experience. Therefore, when I came to them the last time, I specifically asked for a male doctor. Am I a sexist after that?

Or, having to periodically deal with clerks from different state agencies (INS ,IRS, SSA ) in NJ, I noticed that white clerks are averagely much nicer to me than black ones and do things averagely much quicker, therefore I always tried to change my place in line to be served by a white clerk.

Or on my weekly blood test, I am dealing with three differnet nurses, drawing blood, in turn, and it is pretty random which one will do it each time. Two black women and a chinese guy. I dislike one of those two black women, the other is my favourite, and I would prefer either of them to a Chinese guy. I do not make any requests though, because the procedure is simple, and it was only once that they really hurt me, and ironically, it was my favourite, who did that.

The Crow
Oct 17th, 2003, 07:10 PM
That is completely different matter and has nothing to do with hospital.

Medical operations are too subtle matter. And preferences or requests of patients can be based on absolutely strange prejudices.

For instance, in my dental clinic, same procedures was done to me few times by different female doctors and few times by different make doctors. And my impression was that each time when it ws done by a male doctor it was done a better way. Impression from experience. Therefore, when I came to them the last time, I specifically asked for a male doctor. Am I a sexist after that?


I'd say yes, cause you extrapolate your experiences to ALL women by doing so.

Ballbuster
Oct 17th, 2003, 07:16 PM
Why are all these moderators in this thread. :hehehe:

lizchris
Oct 17th, 2003, 07:16 PM
There was no excuse to this and the couple should have been told the following:

Go to another hospital
or

Get a midwife

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but too bad.

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 07:17 PM
I'd say yes, cause you extrapolate your experiences to ALL women by doing so.


I am not asking about definitional bullshit. I asked whether you would find my request illogical?

Cybelle Darkholme
Oct 17th, 2003, 07:23 PM
The hospital was wrong. They know they were wrong. There is no defense for what they did.

The man and his wife should have left the hospital.

Kart
Oct 17th, 2003, 07:28 PM
We are talking about a person who was at that moment in the state of very strong emotional stress, and most likely was inadequate. And not fulfilling such an easy request could only make things worse. Besides, we don't know the story of this family. Giving a birth is puting a person on a brink of emotional and physical capacity, and any push into the wrong direction can result in dire consequences. The husband could have known something about his wife that anyone else didn't..

They should have apologised to their employees internally, the story should not have been made public. That it was made public makes the one who made it public look a troublemaker.

Husbands presence at the birth can be both a hindrance and a help. They key emphasis here though is not the stress the husband was under but the stress that the wife was under. He only contributed to making it worse by being threatening.

I can understand his wanting to make his wife as comfortable as possible but the woman had been in hospital for several days and they would have known that she would not have all white people at her delivery. If she or he didn't like it she could have gone somewhere else - this is hardly 'heat of the moment' stuff so I don't buy into any of that emotional stress argument.

They chose to stay and accept the services on offer.

As for it not being made public I disagree. The hospital ought to be reminded that this kind of behaviour to their employees is unacceptable. Apologising in private gives them a chance to brush it under the carpet.

upperkut
Oct 17th, 2003, 08:08 PM
hypothetical question...let's say you are in some unnamed Third World country and needs to be hospitalized for a serious illness... Your guide recommends the well equipped General Hospital but you insist upon being taken to the American Hospital instead because you don't trust the local medical procedures... Are you being prejudiced against the country's knowledge or just overly cautious and ignorant?

Josh
Oct 17th, 2003, 08:20 PM
I am not asking about definitional bullshit. I asked whether you would find my request illogical?

You would be a sexist if you specifically asked NOT to have a female dentist because you had a bad experience with one. If you'd specifically asked for the doctor who did a better job and happened to be male your request would be logical.

This man specifically asked for NO black doctors. That kind of request is unacceptable.

Poe
Oct 17th, 2003, 08:23 PM
A hospital is a place where the people who work there decide how and when to give care to the people who go there looking for it. It's not a dry cleaning service or restaurant. If a patient goes to any particular hospital they are surrendering themselves to its policies and medical attention based entirely on how they see fit to give it.

If my arm is chopped off, I can't walk into a hospital, expect emergancy care and say "hmm no i dont want that doctor, i dont like brown eyes. Hmm.. , nope, not that one either, that outfit has to go. Oh and are you nuts, i'm not letting a jew care to my wound. Next!?"

If you dont want to submit yourself to the hospital's care in the way they choose to administer it to you as long as they have your best interests and wellbeing in mind from a purely medical standpoint only, then you have no business going there for help.

Well, that's my opinion anyway.

Crazy Canuck
Oct 17th, 2003, 08:53 PM
Too bad that people like this insist on reproducing...

*JR*
Oct 17th, 2003, 08:59 PM
I'd hope their health insurance co. refuses to pay any bills from the hospital itself (as opposed to the OB/GYN, who has to treat all patients under the Hippocratic Oath, medical board rules, etc. and wouldn't be justified in punishing the newborn child by withholding care). BTW, let's tie this into my "mantra" about how society is an organism, etc. The SOB hypocrite knew damn well that blacks were integrally involved in keeping the hospital functioning, his wife's meals prepared, etc. so she was "TREATED" IN A SENSE BY BLACKS ANYWAY! :fiery:

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:19 PM
I am really surprised how it is being blown out of proportion.

I've seen black doctors at work. I've seen black nurses at work. I can tell you that they treat black patients with much more sympathy, diligency and warmth. With white patients they tend to stay cool and mechanical. Why are you surprised then that white patients have less trust to them, if the way they treat patients differs depending on race, even if it is a non-deliberate and natural reaction?

And it is not something insignificant that this is all about, it's health.

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:22 PM
Too bad that people like this insist on reproducing...

Com'n. you are smarter than this bullshit you wrote..

Ballbuster
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:25 PM
I am really surprised how it is being blown out of proportion.

I've seen black doctors at work. I've seen black nurses at work. I can tell you that they treat black patients with much more sympathy, diligency and warmth. With white patients they tend to stay cool and mechanical. Why are you surprised then that white patients have less trust to them, if the way they treat patients differs depending on race, even if it is a non-deliberate and natural reaction?

And it is not something insignificant that this is all about, it's health.


we are suppose to.

*JR*
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:26 PM
I am really surprised how it is being blown out of proportion.

I've seen black doctors at work. I've seen black nurses at work. I can tell you that they treat black patients with much more sympathy, diligency and warmth. With white patients they tend to stay cool and mechanical. Why are you surprised then that white patients have less trust to them, if the way they treat patients differs depending on race, even if it is a non-deliberate and natural reaction?

And it is not something insignificant that this is all about, it's health. Would you @ least agree that this couple should "in good conscience" :rolleyes: refuse to have their health ins. co. (with, OMG, black customers and bill processors, etc.) PAY for their preferred system of "SEGRICARE"?

Josh
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:26 PM
Com'n. you are smarter than this bullshit you wrote..

I wish I could say the same for you.

Kart
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:37 PM
I am really surprised how it is being blown out of proportion.

I've seen black doctors at work. I've seen black nurses at work. I can tell you that they treat black patients with much more sympathy, diligency and warmth. With white patients they tend to stay cool and mechanical. Why are you surprised then that white patients have less trust to them, if the way they treat patients differs depending on race, even if it is a non-deliberate and natural reaction?

And it is not something insignificant that this is all about, it's health.

In relative terms, sympathy, diligence and warmth are what's insignificant. The point is that the doctors and nurses have the patient's health as the first priority.

If you could prove that they give preferentially better treatment (in a medical sense) to patients because of their race then you could have an argument.

It would still be a staggeringly broad generalisation though ...

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:44 PM
Would you @ least agree that this couple should "in good conscience" :rolleyes: refuse to have their health ins. co. (with, OMG, black customers and bill processors, etc.) PAY for their preferred system of "SEGRICARE"?

Why? It was not a racist request. It was a request made in a arguable but quite reasonable assumption, that people of another race would not care for this patient's health as much as they would care for the health of a patient of same race as themselves.

When I am going to some doctor's office, I always check whether they have Russian or Ukrainian personnel, and if yes, I specifically ask that I would prefer to deal with those people, rather than with anyone else, even if my English is sufficient for any kind of business in USA. I just know from experience that because it would help me to have a certain personal contact with a doctor right away it will likely give me a preferential, informal, better treatment, than the American doctor would give me. That's a fact of life. All minorities prefer to deal with doctors belonging to their minority.

Ballbuster
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:44 PM
I wish I could say the same for you.


Gawd, you going to take that.

LostInThe80s
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:48 PM
I am really surprised how it is being blown out of proportion.

I've seen black doctors at work. I've seen black nurses at work. I can tell you that they treat black patients with much more sympathy, diligency and warmth. With white patients they tend to stay cool and mechanical. Why are you surprised then that white patients have less trust to them, if the way they treat patients differs depending on race, even if it is a non-deliberate and natural reaction?

And it is not something insignificant that this is all about, it's health.

rotflmao

*JR*
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:49 PM
Why? It was not a racist request. It was a request made in a arguable but quite reasonable assumption, that people of another race would not care for this patient's health as much as they would care for the health of a patient of same race as themselves.

When I am going to some doctor's office, I always check whether they have Russian or Ukrainian personnel, and if yes, I specifically ask that I would prefer to deal with those people, rather than with anyone else, even if my English is sufficient for any kind of business in USA. I just know from experience that because it would help me to have a certain personal contact with a doctor right away it will likely give me a preferential, informal, better treatment, than the American doctor would give me. That's a fact of life. All minorities prefer to deal with doctors belonging to their minority. So if the ability to communicate isn't an issue, why allow the "tainted money" of "those people" pay for one's SEGRICARE?

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:49 PM
In relative terms, sympathy, diligence and warmth are what's insignificant. The point is that the doctors and nurses have the patient's health as the first priority.

If you could prove that they give preferentially better treatment (in a medical sense) to patients because of their race then you could have an argument.

It would still be a staggeringly broad generalisation though ...

That's all theory. One's health is not a theory. It is a practical issue, and I would not want to do something with my healthcare that would be a politically correct, but might not make me feel the same good. I want the best possible healthcare, as little pain as possible, as little time spent spent for it as possible. And personal sympathy is very important. Consider simple injection shot. The sympathetic caring doctor would put an extra effort to do it painless for you. A doctor who is just duly performing his duties would not care about such minor issues, because the purpose of injection is not a patient being painless at injection moment, but rather a putting a liquid into your body. Really. But which one would you prefer?

Ballbuster
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:50 PM
When I am going to some doctor's office, I always check whether they have Russian or Ukrainian personnel, and if yes, I specifically ask that I


I used to be turned on by Russian gymnist growing up. You know they were so dominant. But then my sister pointed out that they were missing something anatomically.

Do you know what it is?

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:51 PM
So if the ability to communicate isn't an issue, why allow the "tainted money" of "those people" pay for one's SEGRICARE?

Could you please formulate your obscure thoughts in less obscure way?

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:52 PM
I used to be turned on by Russian gymnist growing up. You know they were so dominant. But then my sister pointed out that they were missing something anatomically.

Do you know what it is?

Something that your sister has bitten off them?

griffin
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:54 PM
Why? It was not a racist request. It was a request made in a arguable but quite reasonable assumption, that people of another race would not care for this patient's health as much as they would care for the health of a patient of same race as themselves.


Yet the person you said you prefer to have sticking you with needles is a black woman...

Out of curiosity - other than that one example, you've stated a strong preference dealing with male/white/RussianUkrainian caregivers and service providers because you feel they give you better care. Has it occured to you that perhaps the female/non-white/everwhere else people aren't reacting to your race and gender but to your distrust of them? That they're responding to you and how you respond to them?

LostInThe80s
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:57 PM
Could you please formulate your obscure thoughts in less obscure way?

erm i think that's the agenda...

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:58 PM
Yet the person you said you prefer to have sticking you with needles is a black woman...


Because she is very nice and sympathetic person. And it is me, generally, I have no racial prejudices. But other people might have them and I understand that.


Out of curiosity - other than that one example, you've stated a strong preference dealing with male/white/RussianUkrainian caregivers and service providers because you feel they give you better care. Has it occured to you that perhaps the female/non-white/everwhere else people aren't reacting to your race and gender but to your distrust of them?


No, I never show my distrust once I am with a doctor. What's a point? And always try to be nice and as helpful as I possibly can. But sometimes being nice gets a positive response, and sometimes you are just hitting the wall with your niceness. And that doesn't feel good.

Bright Red
Oct 17th, 2003, 10:01 PM
There's simply no excuse for the hospital's decision. The hospital even said so itself.

The couple should have been sent away.

That may seem harsh to some, but try looking at it another way. What if every racist person made such requests at hospitals? If all hospitals complied, then pretty soon there'd be no more black health care workers. Next, we'd have racist clients requesting no black lawyers, then parents requesting no black teachers, and so on and so on. Pretty soon, every black person in America would be unemployed.

Kart
Oct 17th, 2003, 10:12 PM
That's all theory. One's health is not a theory. It is a practical issue, and I would not want to do something with my healthcare that would be a politically correct, but might not make me feel the same good. I want the best possible healthcare, as little pain as possible, as little time spent spent for it as possible. And personal sympathy is very important. Consider simple injection shot. The sympathetic caring doctor would put an extra effort to do it painless for you. A doctor who is just duly performing his duties would not care about such minor issues, because the purpose of injection is not a patient being painless at injection moment, but rather a putting a liquid into your body. Really. But which one would you prefer?

It is not theory it is fact. All medical staff have to treat patients with their medical interests as a top priority. Otherwise, in this fiercely medico-legal era they get taken to court and struck off the medical register. No one wants that to happen to them hence it's in their best interests.

Also despite the way you make it sound, the medical profession is altruistic at heart. People don't just become doctors and nurses for the money - there are easier ways of getting rich.

If you want the best healthcare, you go to the best and do what they tell you to do. I hate the phrase - no pain no gain, but in this context it's often true. You can't turn up, expect treatment, place restrictions on what you will and won't accept and still expect to get the best treatment. It doesn't work that way (as if I even need to tell you).

As for sympathy, yes of course it's important. Two points though - firstly, if you want to get better, sometimes you have to accept treatment you don't like. Some people have to be given the harsh reality and if the doctor or nurse isn't willing to be up-front about it because they want to be sympathetic, then they're not really giving you the best possible healthcare.

Secondly, of course people bond with others that they have similar backgrounds or interests with. Maybe they get along better with some people than others. That does not however equate with - 'you're white so I'm going to stab you with this needle, deal with it ... whereas you're black so I'm going to sit with you and hold your hand whilst we gently guide you through having this injection.'

People just aren't nasty like that as a general rule unless they've actually got some problem with you (ie. they're prejudiced themselves) or staggeringly unprofessional, in which case patients complain and they don't last long.

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 10:22 PM
It is not theory it is fact. All medical staff have to treat patients with their medical interests as a top priority. Otherwise, in this fiercely medico-legal era they get taken to court and struck off the medical register. No one wants that to happen to them hence it's in their best interests.

OK, would you got to court if a nurse managed to get the needle into your vein only from the third attempt, because she didn't care much? And thus hurt your hand and took out your backhand for three days?

I guess not.

It's so much simpler in Russia. I prefer to do more of stuff during my visits to Moscow. Doctors there know that if you can afford to pay them what they ask, then chances are that if they do something wrong, it is not your advocate with whom (s)he will be discussing the issue. It could well be your bandits who would talk very different language. No one wants that, and so they try really hard.

*JR*
Oct 17th, 2003, 10:24 PM
Could you please formulate your obscure thoughts in less obscure way?
WTF is obscure about saying: So "they" are OK to pay premiums like (you or?) the couple in question, cook the meals, do the billing, everything except be in their (or your?) presence? Whattsa matter, the pigmentation would rub off on their bundle of joy? :rolleyes:

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 10:26 PM
WTF is obscure about saying: So "they" are OK to pay premiums like (you or?) the couple in question, cook the meals, do the billing, everything except be in their (or your?) presence? Whattsa matter, the pigmentation would rub off on their bundle of joy? :rolleyes:

Sorry, man, that level of abstraction is beyond my reach.. :sad:

LostInThe80s
Oct 17th, 2003, 10:28 PM
Sorry, man, that level of abstraction is beyond my reach.. :sad:

rotflmao

Ballbuster
Oct 17th, 2003, 10:50 PM
Something that your sister has bitten off them?


Well, if she could bite it off, then there lies the problem.

alexusjonesfan
Oct 17th, 2003, 10:50 PM
ys, simply saying that you aren't prejudiced doesn't make it so. You seem to work in the medical field (dentistry is it?) so you would know all about the issues of consent. If the woman had been in that hospital while being taken care of by personnel of all backgrounds, she'd clearly have already given her written, verbal and implied consent to be treated at that facility in agreement with all their rules and regulations. Why the last minute change by someone who
a) wasn't the consenting adult in question here
b) wasn't in a place to make decisions for his wife (unless she was incapacitated or unable to give her opinion on the matter for some reason)
?
And your theory about how black workers tend to treat black workers better and so on is is mindboggling. Because of what you've revealed to me, I'm going to have to find myself a doctor of Indian origin because I realize now that I'm not getting the best treatment I can with my current non-Indian doctor. In a multicultural society, you can't just live by the maxim that you'll be taken care of by 'your own' (whatever arbitrary category you choose to insert). That's the whole point of having standards and licences in professions in the medical field. If the father felt that his wife's delivery would be undermined by Black staff, he should have been sent out or sent away. I don't see how not following his wishes would've compromised his wife's condition. She's the one having the baby and he gets to make all the decisions?

Infiniti2001
Oct 17th, 2003, 11:58 PM
Yet the person you said you prefer to have sticking you with needles is a black woman...

Out of curiosity - other than that one example, you've stated a strong preference dealing with male/white/RussianUkrainian caregivers and service providers because you feel they give you better care. Has it occured to you that perhaps the female/non-white/everwhere else people aren't reacting to your race and gender but to your distrust of them? That they're responding to you and how you respond to them?

:worship: :worship: :bounce: :bounce: I'm waiting for a check griffin :lol: I've never met ys , but have picked up on his somewhat surly, hostile , attitude just from reading his posts . Comparing asking for medical personnel based on a language barrier to demanding that a certain race not be present is absoultely absurd to say the least , and ys should be ashamed for defending the indefensible:tape:

*JR*
Oct 18th, 2003, 12:09 AM
:worship: :worship: :bounce: :bounce: I'm waiting for a check griffin :lol: I've never met ys , but have picked up on his somewhat surly, hostile , attitude just from reading his posts . Comparing asking for medical personnel based on a language barrier to demanding that a certain race not be present is absoultely absurd to say the least , and ys should be ashamed for defending the indefensible:tape: What do you expect from someone who considers Russian Jews who came to the US beneath "true Russians" like himself who also came here?

Kart
Oct 18th, 2003, 12:46 AM
OK, would you got to court if a nurse managed to get the needle into your vein only from the third attempt, because she didn't care much? And thus hurt your hand and took out your backhand for three days?

:lol: but that's a competency issue, not a sympathy one.

Anyway, just get them to use your non-hitting arm and you'll have no problem hitting those backhand winners once again (see how sympathetic I can be :)).

Sam L
Oct 18th, 2003, 01:02 AM
This is so stupid. I'd laugh if one day they didn't have the luxury to be racist like this. :tape: