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DA FOREHAND
Oct 17th, 2003, 03:16 PM
Venus, Serena, Chanda, Alex....All save for Chanda have very vocal haters.
Would V/S/A, be less hated if they carried themselves like Chanda?
Are they hated for the power and athleticism they've brought to the game?


"But what will happen as she gets older? What if she starts speaking out angrily on the subtle racism she sees every day? What if she becomes "too black" and "uppity"? What does our culture make of African American women with power?"

Keith
Oct 17th, 2003, 03:25 PM
Jen, Kim and Justine are just as hated. It has little to do with color. It has to do with domination. All of the very top players will be reviled just because they are on top on the world. That is how it is in sports. Revolutionary players are not always welcomed with open arms (at least at first) Alex is a just a poser that pretends that she is, so people pick on her for that.

DA FOREHAND
Oct 17th, 2003, 03:26 PM
I don't recall Jenn. ever dominating the tour.

ys
Oct 17th, 2003, 03:27 PM
I don't recall Jenn. ever dominating the tour.

And you recall Alex.. Rrright.. :lol:

CC
Oct 17th, 2003, 03:31 PM
I like Condi Rice because she is successful, talented, and powerful, but people around me can't fathom the fact that she's a Republican. They can't warm up to her as a result.

The Republicans on the other hand, seem very hateful towards Hillary Clinton, not just because she's a Democrat, but because she's a powerful woman. They know she is ambitious, and in fact, many people are certain she will make a go for the presidency in 2008. Hillary is therefore more of a threat than Condi and I think that is the reason for the animosity towards her.

Our culture is more afraid of powerful women in general.

alexusjonesfan
Oct 17th, 2003, 03:33 PM
Why hasn't anyone mentioned the Queen of TV?
Oprah! :D

CapFan#1
Oct 17th, 2003, 03:38 PM
I'm sorry, but I thought this was a TENNIS forum.... did I log on to the wrong web-site? I am sure someone will call me a racist (so far from the truth) but this conversation has been done atleast a million times here and it is getting old.....

-Ph51-
Oct 17th, 2003, 03:38 PM
Hated is a big word.They sometimes disturb.And that's because some of them are by while a little arrogant!

DA FOREHAND
Oct 17th, 2003, 03:40 PM
And you recall Alex.. Rrright.. :lol:


I never said anything about anyone dominating, Keith brought that up...R.I.F.

Reading Is Fundamental! :tape:

Keith
Oct 17th, 2003, 05:47 PM
Oh please, most people don't even know who Alexandra Stevenson is if you really want to know. Sometimes I think you would rather people dislike the Williams sisters BECAUSE of race rather than any other reason!

Jen was definitely a big player in 2001-2002 and there were more negative things said about her during that time than ever before. Did anyone say that it was because she was an Italian-American? NOPE! Now Kim and Justine are the targets. You just don't get it. Use some logic. It seems that you would just prefer this be about race and not about the fact that better players are now ranked higher than your favorites.

But please, show me an article or a thread that blasts the Williams and Stevenson for their power and athleticism. Thanks in advance!

Cybelle Darkholme
Oct 17th, 2003, 05:54 PM
Im so glad to see the belgians taking shots. Its not like they didn't have it coming. Justine and her enumerable antics and kim with her sourgrapes and crazy father saying justine is on steroids. Yeah thats no reason for criticism.

Anyway no one would care if they were ranked in the 300s and did the same thing. Its about being at the top. People want to tear you down when your at the top. whether you deserve it or not.


also just because someone is ranked higher doesnt mean they are better it means they have more points.

alfajeffster
Oct 17th, 2003, 06:55 PM
I like Condi Rice because she is successful, talented, and powerful, but people around me can't fathom the fact that she's a Republican. They can't warm up to her as a result.

The Republicans on the other hand, seem very hateful towards Hillary Clinton, not just because she's a Democrat, but because she's a powerful woman. They know she is ambitious, and in fact, many people are certain she will make a go for the presidency in 2008. Hillary is therefore more of a threat than Condi and I think that is the reason for the animosity towards her.

Our culture is more afraid of powerful women in general.

This is right on point CC. I'm going to quote a line from one of my favorite movies, and please know this is Jack Nicholson reciting these words from The Witches of Eastwick, in response to Susan Sarandon's mention of the burning witches times:

"Hocus-Pocus. You know what most of those women were? Midwives. That's right. They were forced out of the child-birthing business by men in the medical profession. Their dicks get limp when confronted by a woman of obvious power, and what do they do, they persecute them until every woman is afraid, and all for what? Fear of losing their hard-on. Men are such cocksuckers, aren't they?"

Not me talking- a direct quote, but it does speak to an aspect of this patriarchal society. Speaking of patriarchal societies, I wonder what a powerful man's place was like in ancient matriarchal societies?

spooky
Oct 17th, 2003, 07:03 PM
Oh please, most people don't even know who Alexandra Stevenson is if you really want to know. Sometimes I think you would rather people dislike the Williams sisters BECAUSE of race rather than any other reason!

Jen was definitely a big player in 2001-2002 and there were more negative things said about her during that time than ever before. Did anyone say that it was because she was an Italian-American? NOPE! Now Kim and Justine are the targets. You just don't get it. Use some logic. It seems that you would just prefer this be about race and not about the fact that better players are now ranked higher than your favorites.

But please, show me an article or a thread that blasts the Williams and Stevenson for their power and athleticism. Thanks in advance!

No, they are not better that S&V noway in hell. Kim can't even beat an injured Venus and Serena kick jhh but the last time they met. So who is better?

Betty
Oct 17th, 2003, 08:22 PM
The father of Kim never told "Jusine is on steroids".
That's all bla bla bla,Kim her father is a nice man.I can know it .Everybody got that from talk ,talk, talk, talk.

Ballbuster
Oct 17th, 2003, 08:31 PM
I forsee in the Future Venus and Serena as being VERY POWERFUL for tennis in general. One of them will become a commentator and the other will probably continue playing while one is commentating. It couldn't get no better than your best friend and sister calling out your shot plans.

mishar
Oct 17th, 2003, 09:11 PM
Well..
Toni Morrisson won the nobel prize
Oprah Winfrey is probably the dominant media personality/businesswoman of our time
and Venus and Serena have achieved endorsements and celebrity status way beyond what most previous tennis stars achieved.

So I think african-american women are doing pretty well

And the reason Alexandra is disliked is because she's made a number of batty and obnoxious comments over the years. Why are V/S disliked? A big part is racism, I think, but also Keith is right, the players at the top always earn a lot of bizarre hostility (see Seles, Monica before the stabbing)

~ The Leopard ~
Oct 17th, 2003, 11:20 PM
There is, indeed, an element of racism. OTOH, some people see it everywhere. For example, I am sure that racism played little or no part in the AO crowd's support of Kim over Serena but that didn't stop a few of the nuttier Williams fans (and Oracene herself) saying things that were ignorant and out of line. Still, some of the posts I've seen on this and other boards do demonstrate that there is some racist feeling around.

JenCap looked just as dominant as the sisters from early 2001 until mid-2002. During that time I and some others cheered against her on principle. I'm sure some people feel the same way about Kim and Justine. In my case, I liked them before they became so dominant so I still cheer for them against most players, and Justine in particular has turned into one of my favourites as I've watched more of her matches. But if someone wants to cheer against the Belgians on the "support the underdog" theory that's fine.

Alex does seem to have a few genuine haters, but so does Anna K (more so, in fact), so does Jelena. Even Momo and Dani have haters. It seems that any vivid personality will attract haters, and if someone is seen as under-achieving or struggling (as all of the above except maybe Momo have been) it gives the haters a great excuse.

moon
Oct 17th, 2003, 11:26 PM
"JenCap looked just as dominant as the sisters from early 2001 until mid-2002."

now that is the funniest thing I ever read.
when exactly was this? specify tournaments please

~ The Leopard ~
Oct 17th, 2003, 11:33 PM
In that period, JenCap won three of the six slams.

~ The Leopard ~
Oct 17th, 2003, 11:43 PM
Furthermore, she was ranked # 1 for a fair bit of that perod on and off from October 2001 until early June 2002.

harloo
Oct 17th, 2003, 11:45 PM
Sometimes I think you would rather people dislike the Williams sisters BECAUSE of race rather than any other reason

I will be honest and say that everything that the Williams experience is not due to race, but I would be lying if I did not acknowledge some of it is based on prejudices. I really don't understand how someone can say they HATE the power tennis of the Williams, but Lindsay and Mauresmo are their favorites. Be honest, if you hate power tennis then you should not like power players. :rolleyes:


Jen was definitely a big player in 2001-2002 and there were more negative things said about her during that time than ever before. Did anyone say that it was because she was an Italian-American? NOPE! Now Kim and Justine are the targets. You just don't get it. Use some logic. It seems that you would just prefer this be about race and not about the fact that better players are now ranked higher than your favorites.

Jen was not heavily criticized when she was on top. Pam and Mary Joe danced around Jen's on court antics. The media was hard pressed to bring out anything negative about the "comeback kid". Jen was never booed for her bad behaviour on court. SHE NEVER WAS. So you need to stop it with the fabrications. In the past Jen would act up, and make all type of statements and she would not get criticized by the media. Yes on this board, and maybe others but trust if someone else was doing some of the things Jen did when she was winning they would of been crucified. She has improved now, but the truth is the TRUTH.


But please, show me an article or a thread that blasts the Williams and Stevenson for their power and athleticism. Thanks in advance!

Keith, you have got to be kidding right? Maybe you did not see articles when the sisters were new to the tour. You are right about Stevenson, but wrong about the Williams.

Kart
Oct 17th, 2003, 11:58 PM
"But what will happen as she gets older? What if she starts speaking out angrily on the subtle racism she sees every day? What if she becomes "too black" and "uppity"? "

Does this comment even apply to Venus and Serena ? I don't really remember them being particularly outspoken about racism ever in an angry tone - apart from noting its existence when hounded by the media :rolleyes:.

I don't know what "too black" and "uppity" are exactly meant to mean but I can't remember and major outcry over anything either has said for ages - apart from the occasional "I lost because I played badly" comments from Serena.

Did I miss something major ?

*JR*
Oct 18th, 2003, 12:13 AM
Another element might be their displacing others the tennis public was getting comfortable with as "replacing Steffi". From the Spice Girl who was suddenly winning Slams so artistically to the one who was supposed to but simply wound up being seen as a work of art visually. From the early teen prodigy returning from the depths of whatever, to the outwardly humble "gentle giant". Had the W/S not "deprived" the tennis public of its expectations from these players after the long (Parche "enhanced", of course) Graf Reign, the resentment would have been there, but perhaps less bitter. (And note to Betty: true, Lei never directly accused Juju of doping, but he "said it in code" re. the size of her right forearm supposedly having "doubled", etc.)