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Rtael
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:05 PM
How many people here are people who whole-heartedly believe in the bible and agree with everything in it?

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:08 PM
I do.

ys
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:10 PM
All testaments of Bible are just politically motivated fairy tales. there are some good pieces there, but accepting it in whole is non-sense.

Rtael
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:12 PM
Well, I have to say I don't, and I'll admit I've never read the whole thing, but jsut one book (Leviticus) is full of so much bullshit, I couldn't really believe in it or God anymore.

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:13 PM
I absolutely believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God and is his "roadmap" for all of humanity.

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Rtael
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:24 PM
4] Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
[5] And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
[6] And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
[7] And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
[8] Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

you sin if you eat pig....



[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[2] Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
[3] And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
[4] And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.
[5] But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.
[6] And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest:
[7] Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female.
[8] And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.

you sin if you're not circumcized, you sin if you don't sacrifice animal carcasses


22] Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

sorry, if you're gay, you're burning in hell, baby!



13] If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


[18] And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people

Joana
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:27 PM
No. There are some good things there, but for me it's impossible to believe in it all.

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:28 PM
Well, I have to say I don't, and I'll admit I've never read the whole thing, but jsut one book (Leviticus) is full of so much bullshit, I couldn't really believe in it or God anymore.

Someone must have read you the homosexual scripture. ;)

Rtael
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:30 PM
Someone must have read you the homosexual scripture. ;)


No, I can read, I assure you, I read it myself. It's not just that though as you can see above....

*JR*
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:31 PM
I absolutely believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God and is his "roadmap" for all of humanity.

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: Based on what empirical evidence? :confused:

tfannis
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:34 PM
non-sense imo :) Better and more realistic fiction is written over the last few centuries :D

Josh
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:36 PM
4] Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
[5] And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
[6] And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
[7] And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
[8] Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

you sin if you eat pig....



[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[2] Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
[3] And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
[4] And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.
[5] But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.
[6] And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest:
[7] Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female.
[8] And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.

you sin if you're not circumcized, you sin if you don't sacrifice animal carcasses


22] Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

sorry, if you're gay, you're burning in hell, baby!



13] If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


[18] And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people

If I'm not mistaken, those are all lines from the old testament. To christians the new testament is more important. Most of the rules in the old testament were abolished by Paul who became the first pope. That's why christians eat pork and don't have to be circumcised, unlike jews.

To me the bible is nothing more than an interesting book of fairytales.

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:37 PM
4] Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
[5] And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
[6] And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
[7] And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
[8] Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

you sin if you eat pig....



[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[2] Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
[3] And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
[4] And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.
[5] But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.
[6] And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest:
[7] Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female.
[8] And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.

you sin if you're not circumcized, you sin if you don't sacrifice animal carcasses


22] Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

sorry, if you're gay, you're burning in hell, baby!



13] If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


[18] And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people

You have to read all of the Bible if you are going to try and attack it. When Jesus died on the cross for our sins, he was the sacrificial lamb, so from then on there was no need to sacrifice a lamb or bullock for our sins. After Jesus died and rose, those old rituals were no longer needed. If you notice, Jewish people don't eat pig because they still follow the old laws, but Christians/gentiles are under the new law and can eat pork.

Kart
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:38 PM
I do not, but it was fun reading when I was young, well the story parts anyway.

Car Key Boi
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:38 PM
22] Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.




13] If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.





REMINDER: If YUO, are gay AND A Christian, then YUO=selective reader

- Car Key Boi :devil:

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:39 PM
No, I can read, I assure you, I read it myself. It's not just that though as you can see above....

When I made this point, I hadn't saw your post yet, but I see I was dead smack on. ;)

*JR*
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:41 PM
And the apostles (who wrote the New Testament) basically did NOT know Jesus (as the disciples did). In fact, Christianity is more the "Church of Paul's Perceptions of Jesus" than anything else).

irma
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:44 PM
I believed it when I was little till I read a little more about history and mythology. now I realize it's a history book and a lot has been taken over from older cultures too(especially the old testament). the catholics put it all together in one book and say it is the truth

but then I did a religion test today and it came out that the islam fits me the most. so I guess I need to read the koran next :p

Josh
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:48 PM
I believed it when I was little till I read a little more about history and mythology. now I realize it's a history book and a lot has been taken over from older cultures too(especially the old testament). the catholics put it all together in one book and say it is the truth

but then I did a religion test today and it came out that the islam fits me the most. so I guess I need to read the koran next :p

Was that an online test irma? If so, I'd like to know the url! :)

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:50 PM
And the apostles (who wrote the New Testament) basically did NOT know Jesus (as the disciples did). In fact, Christianity is more the "Church of Paul's Perceptions of Jesus" than anything else).

They wrote most, but not all of the New Testament. They all had personal relationships with God because he anointed them to write the gospel.

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:50 PM
4]

you sin if you eat pig....

you sin if you're not circumcized, you sin if you don't sacrifice animal carcasses

sorry, if you're gay, you're burning in hell, baby!



The Old Testament provides God's guidelines for Israel before the time of Christ. It teaches us that we all all sinners. There are many rules for clean living in Leviticus. The Israelites were to be "set apart" from the nations around them, and not to live as they did. The punishment for violating God's laws was severe.

The good news is that Jesus came as the fulfillment of the Law. He paid the price for our sins by living a perfect, sinless life and dying on the cross as a living sacrifice for our sins. We no longer have to offer burnt offerings to please God. An offering of God's own Son was made once and for all for every one of us.

In order to be free from sin, we must repent and accept Jesus as Savior. The message is that simple.

Don't get wrapped up in "If I do this, then I'll go to Hell". The message is that to repent you must commit your entire being to Jesus. Don't hold anything back. When you are a Christian, you should try to live the life that Jesus would have you to live. If you are under the conviction of God, you'll automatically want to please Him and to do the things that He wants.

Of course that doesn't mean you'll be perfect. No one is. But, your sins are covered by the blood of Jesus.

irma
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:51 PM
http://cgi.ncrv.nl/cgi/ncrv/spiritus/index.htm

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:52 PM
And the apostles (who wrote the New Testament) basically did NOT know Jesus (as the disciples did). In fact, Christianity is more the "Church of Paul's Perceptions of Jesus" than anything else).

Paul knew Jesus - do you?

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:55 PM
http://cgi.ncrv.nl/cgi/ncrv/spiritus/index.htm

I can't read this language, help!! LOL

*JR*
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:57 PM
They wrote most, but not all of the New Testament. They all had personal relationships with God because he anointed them to write the gospel. Evidence, please!

Martian Willow
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:58 PM
Well, I have to say I don't, and I'll admit I've never read the whole thing, but jsut one book (Leviticus) is full of so much bullshit, I couldn't really believe in it or God anymore.

...I can understand your logic regarding the bible, but I don't really see what the fact that the bible (or parts of it) is crap has to do with God...?...I could write a biography of anyone I'd never met...it would be full of innacuracies...doesn't mean that person doesn't exist... :)

Josh
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:59 PM
Thanks Irma!

Apparently I'm a humanist but I also have things in common with buddhism and catholicism.

Josh
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:01 PM
I can't read this language, help!! LOL

It's Dutch. :lol:

Martian Willow
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:02 PM
Paul knew Jesus - do you?

...wtf...? :confused:

propi
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:04 PM
Who can believe all that's written there??
:lol:Someone told in 1654 that following the Bible the world was created by God on Thursay 26 of October of 4004 BC at nine in the morning :rolleyes:

Poe
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:04 PM
REMINDER: If YUO, are gay AND A Christian, then YUO=selective reader

- Car Key Boi :devil:


Reminder: If you are heterosexual and a christian and have ever had sex out of marriage, then you=selective reader

no need to single out gays

Joana
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:05 PM
http://cgi.ncrv.nl/cgi/ncrv/spiritus/index.htm

It looks like I'm Catholic! That's so not true. :p

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:08 PM
...wtf...? :confused:

Knowing Jesus does not mean that you have to have actually seen Him with your own eyes (even though Paul did indeed see Jesus and was struck blind for a number of days at the very sight).

Knowing Jesus is having a relationship with Him. I've never seen you, but I believe you are there because we are communicating. Jesus lives in the hearts of all those who believe in Him.

ys
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:08 PM
Reminder: If you are heterosexual and a christian and have ever had sex out of marriage, then you=selective reader

no need to single out gays

more than that, if you are anybody and a christian who ever masturbated, then you=selective reader.. :devil:

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:10 PM
Reminder: If you are heterosexual and a christian and have ever had sex out of marriage, then you=selective reader
no need to single out gays

Unless either of you (or me, either) have lived a sinless life, then yuo=selective reader, regardless of the sin.

The point is we are ALL sinners who need forgiveness.

G-Ha
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:11 PM
You have to read all of the Bible if you are going to try and attack it. When Jesus died on the cross for our sins, he was the sacrificial lamb, so from then on there was no need to sacrifice a lamb or bullock for our sins. After Jesus died and rose, those old rituals were no longer needed. If you notice, Jewish people don't eat pig because they still follow the old laws, but Christians/gentiles are under the new law and can eat pork.

That being the case, why then did the authors of the new testament pick and choose certain aspects of Leviticus, such as homosexuality being an abomination, to carry over to the New Testament, while other elements, such as not eating pork, were left out? Is there any explanation in the Bible why most of the sins detailed in Leviticus were completely thrown out in the New Testament, while just a few were not?

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:11 PM
Evidence, please!

Well first of all, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all wrote accounts of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. God spoke directly to Paul when he called him to preach

Acts.9
[1] And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
[2] And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
[3] And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
[4] And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
[5] And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
[6] And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
[7] And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
[8] And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
[9] And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
[10] And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
[11] And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
[12] And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
[13] Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
[14] And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
[15] But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
[16] For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
[17] And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
[18] And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
[19] And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
[20] And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
[21] But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?
[22] But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

======================================

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:13 PM
That being the case, why then did the authors of the new testament pick and choose certain aspects of Leviticus, such as homosexuality being an abomination, to carry over to the New Testament, while other elements, such as not eating pork, were left out? Is there any explanation in the Bible why most of the sins detailed in Leviticus were completely thrown out in the New Testament, while just a few were not?


The answer is that *they* weren't picking & choosing. They were following what God told them to do and to write.

Martian Willow
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:13 PM
Knowing Jesus does not mean that you have to have actually seen Him with your own eyes (even though Paul did indeed see Jesus and was struck blind for a number of days at the very sight).

Knowing Jesus is having a relationship with Him. I've never seen you, but I believe you are there because we are communicating. Jesus lives in the hearts of all those who believe in Him.

...if that's what you meant, it makes no sense as an answer to JRs point...cos that's not what he meant when he said the apostles never knew Jesus... :)

Car Key Boi
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:15 PM
Reminder: If you are heterosexual and a christian and have ever had sex out of marriage, then you=selective reader

no need to single out gays

troof!

and the worst hippocrites are those bible bashing, gay hating, god fearing, religious zealouts, preaching on our TV screens about God, the bible, family values blah blah blah, and then the following week they're asking for forgiveness because they got caught banging some hooker

WackoJacko
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:15 PM
I don't. Never have read, and never will.

I pity the ones that have. :sad:

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:16 PM
...if that's what you meant, it makes no sense as an answer to JRs point...cos that's not what he meant when he said the apostles never knew Jesus... :)

It does make sense - Paul did indeed see and speak with Jesus when he was struck down. So, he knew Jesus in either context.

irma
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:18 PM
why did I learn in school that mozes wrote the first 4 books of the bible while it's proven that it's not true also he wrote about his own death at the end which is pretty amazing :o

Car Key Boi
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:19 PM
Knowing Jesus does not mean that you have to have actually seen Him with your own eyes (even though Paul did indeed see Jesus and was struck blind for a number of days at the very sight).

Knowing Jesus is having a relationship with Him. I've never seen you, but I believe you are there because we are communicating. Jesus lives in the hearts of all those who believe in Him.

dude, i'm a troll, the best troll on wtaworldtard by far. And being a troll, i know a troll when i see one

so trust me on this, JESUS WAS A TROLL, THE BEST GODDAMN TROLL IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD

that is all

- Car Key Boi :cool:

Martian Willow
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:21 PM
...I see...the people who wrote the bible were chosen by God...what evidence can you provide to prove that they were chosen by God...?...well, because they said so... :)

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:21 PM
why did I learn in school that mozes wrote the first 4 books of the bible while it's proven that it's not true also he wrote about his own death at the end which is pretty amazing :o

Just because you were taught something in school doesn't make it true. Moses probably did write the majority of the first five books, but ultimately, it was God who inspired it, regardless of who wrote it.

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:21 PM
That being the case, why then did the authors of the new testament pick and choose certain aspects of Leviticus, such as homosexuality being an abomination, to carry over to the New Testament, while other elements, such as not eating pork, were left out? Is there any explanation in the Bible why most of the sins detailed in Leviticus were completely thrown out in the New Testament, while just a few were not?

Those rituals that Israel used to practice were to set themselves apart, sin is disobedience. God told them not to do it then so it's sin, but if later God overruled that law then it's okay. It's all about obedience. Just like in the home if your mother tells you not to eat in your bedroom and you do it anyway it's sin, but if she later decides it's okay for you to eat in your bedroom, you are doing the same thing as you were before except this time it isn't sin because you are not disobeying.

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:23 PM
why did I learn in school that mozes wrote the first 4 books of the bible while it's proven that it's not true also he wrote about his own death at the end which is pretty amazing :o

What we have to realize about the Bible is that everything is not necessarily in chronological order from front to back.

TennisHack
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:24 PM
Based on what empirical evidence? :confused:

You cannot prove or disprove the Bible through science. Faith and science are complete contradictions of one another. The very meaning of faith is believing in something you can't prove (and conversely, believing in something you can't disprove). I know that's hard for small minds to bear, but it's true.

Aha! ;) I knew I'd find this statement eventually. An interesting way to look at this issue of science vs religion:

"In science, a theory should be "disconfirmable": that is, a theory should imply a set of observations or results that, if found, would prove to be false. (This is the difference between religion and science. There is no conceivable set of observations or results that would prove that God does not exist. He always might just be in hiding. Therefore, the existence of God is not a scientific issue.)" -- David C. Funder, The Personality Puzzle, pg 327

Really, was there a need to start a thread to bash the people that believe in the Bible? And if you're going to attempt it, at least know what you're talking about.

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:26 PM
...I see...the people who wrote the bible were chosen by God...what evidence can you provide to prove that they were chosen by God...?...well, because they said so... :)

Personally I have felt the presence of God and believe it to be true. Christianity is based on faith. If you step out on faith and believe you will see results.

What evidence do we have that every scientific discovery is true?? Because the scientists said so.

Rtael
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:27 PM
I do believe in the concept of a god, but not in the actual idea of a christian/islamic/blah blah crap, cause organized religion is a bigger troll then Jesus, and I don't really believe that God even has anything to do with this planet anymore, atleast not in a way of direct interference, ala deists almost...

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:29 PM
...I see...the people who wrote the bible were chosen by God...what evidence can you provide to prove that they were chosen by God...?...well, because they said so... :)

It makes little or no sense that these men would have sacrificed their very lives for a man that they knew to be a total liar. They were with him from the beginning - Peter, John, etc... They were tortured, tormented, hunted down, jailed, beaten, and ultimately killed and did not recant what Jesus had taught them.

That's pretty strong evidence to me.

Rtael
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:29 PM
and the Bible is the biggest BS of all cause evenif you believe in Jesus/God, there's no proof that the bible was written through their guidance....for all you know, satan could have guided the hands of the author's of the bible, to lead you all into sin and away from god....

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:31 PM
and the Bible is the biggest BS of all cause evenif you believe in Jesus/God, there's no proof that the bible was written through their guidance....for all you know, satan could have guided the hands of the author's of the bible, to lead you all into sin and away from god....


Read Revelation. In the end God wins! Think Satan would write an ending like that?

Martian Willow
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:33 PM
It makes little or no sense that these men would have sacrificed their very lives for a man that they knew to be a total liar. They were with him from the beginning - Peter, John, etc... They were tortured, tormented, hunted down, jailed, beaten, and ultimately killed and did not recant what Jesus had taught them.

That's pretty strong evidence to me.

...people have sacrificed their lives for all sorts of reasons...not just Jesus... :)

G-Ha
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:34 PM
Those rituals that Israel used to practice were to set themselves apart, sin is disobedience. God told them not to do it then so it's sin, but if later God overruled that law then it's okay. It's all about obedience. Just like in the home if your mother tells you not to eat in your bedroom and you do it anyway it's sin, but if she later decides it's okay for you to eat in your bedroom, you are doing the same thing as you were before except this time it isn't sin because you are not disobeying.

That doesn't really answer my question. Why then did God overrule most sins from Leviticus, but not a select few? Afterall, it's not just the rituals from Leviticus that are no longer relevant, as many of the sins from that book were not carried over either. I'm just curious whether there's any explanation as to why Christians may disregard much of Leviticus, except for a few parts.

Back to my example of homosexuality: in Leviticus, homosexuality is lumped in with eating pork, wearing multi-fabric garments, mixing crops, etc. and isn't given any more attention than any other sin listed in this book. Yet, somehow this one aspect is selected out of the bunch for recognition in the New Testament. Again, is there any explanation why this one sin was deemed relevant out of all the others listed in Leviticus which were eventually disgarded?

Martian Willow
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:35 PM
Personally I have felt the presence of God and believe it to be true. Christianity is based on faith. If you step out on faith and believe you will see results.

What evidence do we have that every scientific discovery is true?? Because the scientists said so.

...the evidence is published in scientific journals and papers and books all the time...it's available to everyone...even you... :)

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:36 PM
...people have sacrificed their lives for all sorts of reasons...not just Jesus... :)

Yes, but you're talking about people who died believing in a cause.

If Jesus was a fake, the disciples and apostles would have been in on it from the beginning. What motive would they have had to die for their cause? There would have been no cause if Jesus hadn't rose from the dead.

Rtael
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:37 PM
Read Revelation. In the end God wins! Think Satan would write an ending like that?


to make it believeable and to fool the people who now go around and base their entire lives around what's in there. I think it'd be worth it to write a slanderous story about one's self to get people to do your bidding and to steal their souls....

TennisHack
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:38 PM
to make it believeable and to fool the people who now go around and base their entire lives around what's in there. I think it'd be worth it to write a slanderous story about one's self to get people to do your bidding and to steal their souls....

If you're this cynical this young, then I honestly feel sorry for you.

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:40 PM
troof!

and the worst hippocrites are those bible bashing, gay hating, god fearing, religious zealouts, preaching on our TV screens about God, the bible, family values blah blah blah, and then the following week they're asking for forgiveness because they got caught banging some hooker

Yep, you are right!! LOL!! You have to be careful about listening to the preachers on TV especially. All preachers of course are not like that.

Rtael
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:40 PM
If you're this cynical this young, then I honestly feel sorry for you.


If You're old enough to be calling me young, then I feel sorry that you're so old and still so naive.

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:42 PM
and the Bible is the biggest BS of all cause evenif you believe in Jesus/God, there's no proof that the bible was written through their guidance....for all you know, satan could have guided the hands of the author's of the bible, to lead you all into sin and away from god....

God has all power, Satan can only do what God allows him. The devil is not deity. He is a fallen angel from heaven. God created the angel lucifer who then was banished from heaven and is now referred to as Satan.

irma
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:42 PM
Yes, but you're talking about people who died believing in a cause.

If Jesus was a fake, the disciples and apostles would have been in on it from the beginning. What motive would they have had to die for their cause? There would have been no cause if Jesus hadn't rose from the dead.

many people have killed themselves for other people in cults and so that doesn't prove anything about Jezus being the son of God. see I personally love to believe Jesus is the son of the God he described since he seemed to have been a great and amazing person who didn't judge others no matter what they did.(so sad many of his followers didn't realize that but that's a different story)

AjdeNate!
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:44 PM
I'm a heathen.
I'm a heretic.
I'm agnostic.
I'm a pragmatist.

TennisHack
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:46 PM
If You're old enough to be calling me young, then I feel sorry that you're so old and still so naive.

If you're old enough to make that statement, then I find it even more pathetic that you have to set up threads to bash other peoples' beliefs just to make yourself feel better. Mature, thou aren't.

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:49 PM
many people have killed themselves for other people in cults and so that doesn't prove anything about Jezus being the son of God. see I personally love to believe Jesus is the son of the God he described since he seemed to have been a great and amazing person who didn't judge others no matter what they did.(so sad many of his followers didn't realize that but that's a different story)

Yes, but again, the cult members believe they are dying for a great cause. The disciples would have known that Jesus was a fake. Why die for him if they knew that? And, if they weren't lying in their writings, then Jesus is indeed the son of God.

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:51 PM
That doesn't really answer my question. Why then did God overrule most sins from Leviticus, but not a select few? Afterall, it's not just the rituals from Leviticus that are no longer relevant, as many of the sins from that book were not carried over either. I'm just curious whether there's any explanation as to why Christians may disregard much of Leviticus, except for a few parts.

Back to my example of homosexuality: in Leviticus, homosexuality is lumped in with eating pork, wearing multi-fabric garments, mixing crops, etc. and isn't given any more attention than any other sin listed in this book. Yet, somehow this one aspect is selected out of the bunch for recognition in the New Testament. Again, is there any explanation why this one sin was deemed relevant out of all the others listed in Leviticus which were eventually disgarded?

I answered this already. God told them not to do it, so then if they disobey it's sin, but if he overrules that law doing it isn't sin anymore. God's definition of a marriage is between a man and a woman. No one is supposed to engage in sexual activities before they are married. (though most of us do anyway and yes it is sin) Another misconception is that God hates gay people, this is NOT true. He hates sin, but he LOVES his children. He created us and he loves us, but sin cannot exist with God which is why we need to be washed in the blood of Jesus Christ.

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:52 PM
Thanks god I was starting to worry :eek:

Huh?? LOL.

Joana
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:54 PM
God has all power, Satan can only do what God allows him.

Is it just me, or this doesn't make any sense???

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:05 PM
Is it just me, or this doesn't make any sense???

Depends on what you believe in. Makes perfect sense to me.

irma
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:07 PM
so god is evil?

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:09 PM
so god is evil?

God is definitely not evil. He is the opposite of evil.

irma
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:13 PM
if he has the power and allows the devil to make such a mess of this world then he is evil.
and God knows anything(another thing I learnt in school;)) so why did make the tree anyway. he knew adam, eve and the snake would fall for it

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:21 PM
if he has the power and allows the devil to make such a mess of this world then he is evil.
and God knows anything(another thing I learnt in school;)) so why did make the tree anyway. he knew adam, eve and the snake would fall for it

He gave them a choice. Just because He knew what they would do doesn't mean he made them do it.

Same with the Devil. He chose his rebellion against God.

Same with us. We choose to serve God or not. We have no excuse if we choose not to.

XMan
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:21 PM
Phewww, it's a good sign that the great majority of the poster here don't take every word in the bibble for granted. Sometimes I loses my confidence in mankind if I read all those rumours about the percentage of creationists in the US or the number of fundamentalists around the world. But as long as a man can think rational they will never dominate us.

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:22 PM
If he is a perfect, why didn't he create perfect humans who would all live in harmony?


Because God want us to LOVE him. A creation of perfect humans living in harmony would be a creation of robots. We have the choice to do good or evil, and we often choose evil.

*JR*
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:24 PM
Personality Puzzle Can we please leave Suisse WTA players out of this? :lol:

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:24 PM
if he has the power and allows the devil to make such a mess of this world then he is evil.
and God knows anything(another thing I learnt in school;)) so why did make the tree anyway. he knew adam, eve and the snake would fall for it

He wants us to choose to serve Him instead of choosing evil. God is NOT evil, please reconsider what you are saying.

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:27 PM
Yes, but you're talking about people who died believing in a cause.

If Jesus was a fake, the disciples and apostles would have been in on it from the beginning. What motive would they have had to die for their cause? There would have been no cause if Jesus hadn't rose from the dead.

Who says the apostles existed?

Why did Snowwhite eat from that apple? What are the odds that the Prince would fall in love with her? There must have been some devine intervention.

Car Key Boi
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:29 PM
hey knizzle, is it a sin to listen to sexist and racist hip hop/rap/blah?

if it is, i'm fucked ...http://carkeyboi.com/dump/sadbanana.gif

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:29 PM
What evidence do we have that every scientific discovery is true?? Because the scientists said so.

Because I've seen it with my own eyes? Because when the doctor tells me that this particular medicine will cure my illness, it actually does. When the weatherman says that the weather will probably be quite nice and explains his reasons for thinking the weather is nice, his prediction usually turns out to be right.

irma
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:30 PM
I say that he is evil in the way the christians or muslims portray him, as said I have a totally different view of Jesus. there is a reason for that.

G-Ha
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:31 PM
I answered this already. God told them not to do it, so then if they disobey it's sin, but if he overrules that law doing it isn't sin anymore. God's definition of a marriage is between a man and a woman. No one is supposed to engage in sexual activities before they are married. (though most of us do anyway and yes it is sin) Another misconception is that God hates gay people, this is NOT true. He hates sin, but he LOVES his children. He created us and he loves us, but sin cannot exist with God which is why we need to be washed in the blood of Jesus Christ.

Well, no you didn't already answer it, because that wasn't my question. You gave an explanation as to why eating pork is no longer a sin because, as you said, God "overruled" it. Thus, what was once considered sin, is no longer. I understand that. That wasn't my question. I was curious as to why most of Leviticus was discarded and only a few aspects retained.

You're example of marriage being reserved for a man and woman is one explanation as to why homosexuality is still considered a sin.

But it's still peculiar to me that most of the sins and rituals of Leviticus were wiped out, while this one was selected to remain. I guess I just thought that either the sins and rituals of Leviticus are either relevant or not as a whole...but it seems most are irrelevant save for one or two.

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:33 PM
Because I've seen it with my own eyes? Because when the doctor tells me that this particular medicine will cure my illness, it actually does. When the weatherman says that the weather will probably be quite nice and explains his reasons for thinking the weather is nice, his prediction usually turns out to be right.

So you develop faith in it, just the same as Christianity.

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:33 PM
They wrote most, but not all of the New Testament. They all had personal relationships with God because he anointed them to write the gospel.

Why did God provide the last one with more details? Why is the first one who started writing things down providing us with the least details? You'd expect the person closest in time to the time Jesus lived would know most about it. And don't you think the last one had a chance to read what the first one wrote? After all, there are quite a few years in between, it's not hard to imagine he read the first report and decided to spice it up a little.

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:34 PM
So you develop faith in it, just the same as Christianity.

No, it's not based on faith, it's based on actual facts, not believing it's there but KNOWING it's there because everyone can see it's there, there's no discussion about it. I don't believe I live in a brick house, I KNOW I live in a brick house.

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:35 PM
Well, no you didn't already answer it, because that wasn't my question. You gave an explanation as to why eating pork is no longer a sin because, as you said, God "overruled" it. Thus, what was once considered sin, is no longer. I understand that. That wasn't my question. I was curious as to why most of Leviticus was discarded and only a few aspects retained.

You're example of marriage being reserved for a man and woman is one explanation as to why homosexuality is still considered a sin.

But it's still peculiar to me that most of the sins and rituals of Leviticus were wiped out, while this one was selected to remain. I guess I just thought that either the sins and rituals of Leviticus are either relevant or not as a whole...but it seems most are irrelevant save for one or two.

So just because homosexuality is sin. Everything else in the Bible is contradictory??

Car Key Boi
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:35 PM
and another question that's bugging me knizzle

how the fuck did Noah get two specimens of every goddamn creature in the world, into one crappy wooden boat?

even if he had a couple of those Supertankers, no way jose - it can't be done

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:37 PM
So just because homosexuality is sin. Everything else in the Bible is contradictory??

What he's saying is that you base the fact that homosexuality is a sin on the same book that says it's a sin to eat pork. That doesn't make sense. You seem to be picking out sins at random. Either they're all sins in your book, or none of the sins mentioned in there are sins.

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:38 PM
Who says the apostles existed?

Why did Snowshite eat from that apple? What are the odds that the Prince would fall in love with her? There must have been some devine intervention.


Snowshite? :lol: :lol: :lol:

But seriously, if the apostles were made-up characters, it would have been well known from very early history. I don't think even you believe that. I think you are just arguing for the sake of being argumentative.

Joana
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:39 PM
I've always wondered, if God knows everything, why do we have to prove that we believe in him?

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:40 PM
What evidence do you have that Snowwhite never existed, Nash?

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:40 PM
and another question that's bugging me knizzle

how the fuck did Noah get two specimens of every goddamn creature in the world, into one crappy wooden boat?

even if he had a couple of those Supertankers, no way jose - it can't be done

It was a huge ark. I wasn't there.

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:42 PM
Why does no one EVER answer me when I mention that being evil or doing evil actions is NOT a choice most of the time?

Being evil is a choice because at some point in your life you can always choose to do right.

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:42 PM
and another question that's bugging me knizzle

how the fuck did Noah get two specimens of every goddamn creature in the world, into one crappy wooden boat?

even if he had a couple of those Supertankers, no way jose - it can't be done


I'm not Knizzle, but here's one possible answer:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/Magazines/docs/cen_v19n2_animals_ark.asp

XMan
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:43 PM
So you develop faith in it, just the same as Christianity.

A scientific theory is always based on rational and logic underlying concepts. It is bound to criticism and has to deal with it. It will be tested over and over again. If it is erroneous then it will be replaced and cease to exist as a scientific theory. We call this the Popperian problem solving process and it is the only basis to validate a theory. A fundamentalistic belief in the bibble fails totally, it is not based on rational and logic underlying concepts and doesn't allow criticism. Its 'truths' are meaningless.

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:44 PM
What's he's saying is that you base the fact that homosexuality is a sin on the same book that says it's a sin to eat pork. That doesn't make sense. You seem to be picking out sins at random. Either they're all sins in your book, or none of the sins mentioned in there are sins.

Leviticus is not the only book that speaks on God's plan for marriage and a union.

Car Key Boi
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:44 PM
It was a huge ark. I wasn't there.


okay, let me put it like this

even if Noah had a fleet of FUCKING AIRCRAFT CARRIERS, it would have taken him hundreds of years to round up 2 specimens of every living creature

and is listening to sexist/racist/blah rap considered a sin? it is, right?

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:46 PM
Not if you have psychological problems. Which is the case for most people who can be considered as evil.

You are perceiving evil only to be the worst of the worst criminals, perverts, whatever.

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:46 PM
Why does no one EVER answer me when I mention that being evil or doing evil actions is NOT a choice most of the time?

I believe it is a choice. Everything we do is a choice.

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:47 PM
What evidence do you have that Snowwhite never existed, Nash?

About as much evidence as you have that Jesus was a fake.

zippo.

XMan
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:49 PM
I believe it is a choice. Everything we do is a choice.

Your choice can have serious restrictions. And even if you have choice, you never now if it doesn't harm something. You know, the flapping of a bird in Australia can cause a tornado in the US according to chaos theory. And you know what tornado's can do huh?

tfannis
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:50 PM
But seriously, if the apostles were made-up characters, it would have been well known from very early history. I don't think even you believe that. I think you are just arguing for the sake of being argumentative.
Are you serious? :lol: Not once you were able to refute one of her arguments...yet she is arguing for the sake of being argumentative? :eek: Give me a break :lol:

So....prove Snowwhite never existed and you might have made your first valuable argument :tape: Cause some book is no prove lol...too bad Harry Potter wasn't written first; people would have believed in much cooler stuff then :D

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:50 PM
Not if you have psychological problems. Which is the case for most people who can be considered as evil.

Now I totally disagree with that. People who are mentally ill to the point that they don't know what they're doing - God will have to be the judge of that. It's not my job to judge people.

However, everybody on earth has done evil of some sort. It doesn't have to be a serial killer in order to be evil. Even seemingly small things can be evil.

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:52 PM
About as much evidence as you have that Jesus was a fake.

zippo.

Exactly!

So anyone can come up with a book and follow it to the letter saying it's the true word. E.g. The One and True Book of Snowwhite. Vs1.1: Thou shallt not wear black. To wear black ist to be evil. Vs. 1.2. Thou shallt only wash thy clothes using Dash...

Why do you believe in the bible, Adam and Eve, but not in Snowwhite, Santa and Cinderella?

Joana
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:53 PM
Even seemingly small things can be evil.

Like sex before marriage?

tfannis
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:54 PM
About as much evidence as you have that Jesus was a fake.

zippo.

There you go....so we could all start believing in Snowwhite and her allmighty dwarfs then :worship:

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:56 PM
We all know the Grimm brothers were inspired by God, it's God who made them write those stories.

Car Key Boi
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:57 PM
I'm not Knizzle, but here's one possible answer:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/Magazines/docs/cen_v19n2_animals_ark.asp


"The Ark measured 300x50x30 cubits (Genesis 6:15) which is about 140x23x13.5 metres or 459x75x44 feet, so its volume was 43,500 m3 (cubic metres) or 1.54 million cubic feet. To put this in perspective, this is the equivalent volume of 522 standard American railroad stock cars, each of which can hold 240 sheep."

459 feet long???????? and it's made out of wood???? 459 feet!!!!! i doubt it's possible to build a wooden boat that long, even today with the use of modern power tools blah

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:58 PM
"459 feet long???????? and it's made out of wood???? 459 feet!!!!! i doubt it's possible to build a wooden boat that long, even today with the use of modern power tools blah

Try keying that thing, eh!

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:58 PM
okay, let me put it like this

even if Noah had a fleet of FUCKING AIRCRAFT CARRIERS, it would have taken him hundreds of years to round up 2 specimens of every living creature

and is listening to sexist/racist/blah rap considered a sin? it is, right?

God instructed Noah to do what he did, so God had it covered. You don't have to worry CKB!! Yes, it's a sin to listen to that type of music, but it's not confined to rap only and music that carries spirits behind them that are not holy.

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:59 PM
Like sex before marriage?

Yes, fornication is evil. I don't think anyone here is claiming to be a saint.

King Satan
Oct 13th, 2003, 10:00 PM
I dont' believe in those stories. but i do think we can all learn from those stories. the bible is a great tool for helping you get through life. :)

some of those stories are cool too :)

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 10:04 PM
, it has been proved the brain of serial killers is different than the brain of normal people. Was it their choice to have a different brain?

God must have given them a different brain, right? Why did he do that?

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 10:05 PM
Most of the bad actions we do are due to

1) Our mental state.
2) Our bad education.
3) Our genetic. Just an example, it has been proved the brain of serial killers is different than the brain of normal people. Was it their choice to have a different brain?

So then we should go have our brains scanned and find out who is a serial killer beforehand and then eliminate them before it happens??

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 10:06 PM
I'm gonna have to drop out for now. I'll be back tomorrow!

-Nash-

Couver
Oct 13th, 2003, 10:08 PM
I'll take a crack at trying to answer your question G-Ha

I basically think that homosexuality was selected out of those other sins, mainly due to selective discretion on the authors part. And I think it was selected out for a reason. And that is....

The Romans, we did practice homosexuality quite freely (althought not as freely as the greeks). Anyway we all know that Christians were treated horribly by the Romans, thousands were killed in arena combat (in which they were given no weapons or armour). So when the authors of the bible got to writing the New Testament it gave them a good opportunity to get a little revenge. Get back at your enemy by saying that one aspect of their way of life is a sin that will lead them to hell.

Anyway that's my theory.

tfannis
Oct 13th, 2003, 10:09 PM
God instructed Noah to do what he did, so God had it covered.

Well in your face engineers :eek: All the math, all the physics, all those years of hard work..and all you needed was God behind your back :sad: :banghead:

:yawn:

tfannis
Oct 13th, 2003, 10:12 PM
I'm gonna have to drop out for now. I'll be back tomorrow!

-Nash-

So what about Snowwhite?

Anybody? Knizzle?

Rtael
Oct 13th, 2003, 10:13 PM
I'll take a crack at trying to answer your question G-Ha

I basically think that homosexuality was selected out of those other sins, mainly due to selective discretion on the authors part. And I think it was selected out for a reason. And that is....

The Romans, we did practice homosexuality quite freely (althought not as freely as the greeks). Anyway we all know that Christians were treated horribly by the Romans, thousands were killed in arena combat (in which they were given no weapons or armour). So when the authors of the bible got to writing the New Testament it gave them a good opportunity to get a little revenge. Get back at your enemy by saying that one aspect of their way of life is a sin that will lead them to hell.

Anyway that's my theory.


lol, that's wrong.... You ever wonder why it's called ROMAN catholic? Romans were anti-christian at first, but once Constantine became emperor (in 400 A.D.'s I think) he made Christianity the official religion of the empire and therefor Romans=Christians at that point.

Rtael
Oct 13th, 2003, 10:15 PM
Though you might have a point, cause it might have been written before the Romans converted....but whatever. I jsut wanted to show off my impressive knowledge =)

tfannis
Oct 13th, 2003, 10:19 PM
In the meanwhile...the poll is heading to an I don't...of to bed reassured :)

Couver
Oct 13th, 2003, 10:22 PM
You are right Rtael, however until the conversion Christians were persecuted by the Romans. I just mean that the selection of that one particular sin might have been a way to strike back at the Romans, and also to bring them over to Catholoism by showing them the error of their ways so to speak.

Josh
Oct 13th, 2003, 10:25 PM
Roman-catholic = the seat of the catholic church is in Rome, hence Roman. It has nothing to do with Romans converting to christianity.

Car Key Boi
Oct 13th, 2003, 10:28 PM
one last question for the God Tards

where the hell did Cain's wife come from? at the time Eve was the only gurl on the planet, so Cain must have fucked his own mom, right?

King Satan
Oct 13th, 2003, 10:45 PM
so that dude was the first motherfucker? lol

sartrista7
Oct 13th, 2003, 11:00 PM
I'm not Knizzle, but here's one possible answer:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/Magazines/docs/cen_v19n2_animals_ark.asp

!!!!!!!!!!

That link is one of the most insane things I've ever read, including the website about serial killers which Rebecca linked to the other week.

It's also incredibly amusing :lol:

Colin B
Oct 13th, 2003, 11:32 PM
459 feet long???????? and it's made out of wood???? 459 feet!!!!! i doubt it's possible to build a wooden boat that long, even today with the use of modern power tools blah
First you would have to lay a full length solid wooden keel, so before you start you would have to find a tree probably twice that height (because you couldn't use the skinny twiggy bit at the top).
Now the tallest tree around today (yes, it's in the good ol' HEEWESSofAYYYE! :rolleyes: ) is around 365' tall and so still some way short, (despite being taller than the Statue of Liberty mind you) and The Holy Land is not noted for it's tall trees so................ <Noah takes the chewed pencil from behind his ear and scratches his head> "It's gonna cost ya!"

The Bible is a collection of accounts of various events, written by different people, often long after the fact and then translated and re-interpreted many times before we get top the tome we have today.

I have no doubt that much of what is in the New Testament is based on actual events and people, that became seriously 'sexed up' in the re-telling. I do believe that Jesus existed!! A working class lad who educated himself beyond his calling and then decided to stir things up with the establishment until things got out of hand and the authorities decided to kick his arse, which they did, thereby making him very popular amongst the downtrodden masses. The original 'working class hero'. I could tell you the whole true story of his life but it would take too long here!

Rtael
Oct 13th, 2003, 11:37 PM
rtael...there's absolutely no reason for anyone to believe in the bible if they don't want to. but to post a thread asking a question with a poll and then tearing it apart before you've even gotten to half of the second page is merely a way of putting forth your own agenda. you're not really interested in what people believe. your main draw is to insult those who do. so....why bother? if you don't believe, cool. keep it to yourself.

those of us who do believe aren't interested in knowing whether you do or not and for what reasons. it's a personal thing. much like tampons and pads...you know? it's personal. no need to insult the other side just because you don't feel the same.

it's reassuring to know you don't believe in G-d. it really is.



No, you're right, I wasn't interested in fidning out who believed in the bible and who didn't, but I was interested in finding out their reasons why, and if I hadn't started this thread the way I did I would have either gotten no answers, or just a bunch of "yes" and "no" without any real discussion....with this method I already have four full pages of discussion to read...... :angel:

TennisHack
Oct 13th, 2003, 11:49 PM
you are fucking pathetic. I set up this thread because I don't agree with a certain people's viewpoints, how the hell is that bashing them, or making me feel better about myself? -- from my reputation points

Well, DeuceDiva said it better than I did, but basically, when you're baiting people into talking to you just so you can tear their beliefs apart for your own personal pleasure . . . usually that's called 'bashing'.

Rtael
Oct 13th, 2003, 11:55 PM
-- from my reputation points

Well, DeuceDiva said it better than I did, but basically, when you're baiting people into talking to you just so you can tear their beliefs apart for your own personal pleasure . . . usually that's called 'bashing'.


lol that's bullshit, I do disagree with their opinions, but I started this thread to see why people believed in it, not to senselessly bash people like you came in here to do TennisHack, because as anyone can see you've added NOTHING in this thread except your derogatory comments towards me.

TennisHack
Oct 14th, 2003, 12:02 AM
lol that's bullshit, I do disagree with their opinions, but I started this thread to see why people believed in it, not to senselessly bash people like you came in here to do TennisHack, because as anyone can see you've added NOTHING in this thread except your derogatory comments towards me.

Too bad you've already negative repped me, eh? ;)

And really, you're the only one paying attention to me. Why does my presence bother you so much? You can always put me on ignore.

Knizzle
Oct 14th, 2003, 12:11 AM
lol that's bullshit, I do disagree with their opinions, but I started this thread to see why people believed in it, not to senselessly bash people like you came in here to do TennisHack, because as anyone can see you've added NOTHING in this thread except your derogatory comments towards me.

Rtael, this thread is nothing but a forum to come in and bash religion.

Sam L
Oct 14th, 2003, 12:18 AM
Yeah I read the Bible just like I read the Lord of the Rings books. It's all fantasy books. :tape:

Sam L
Oct 14th, 2003, 12:20 AM
I have to admit the stories in the old testament are pretty entertaining. The new testament is a bit boring except revelations. And boy, was there some imagination going on there. Beasts and wars, almost as good as Tolkien. :tape: Good stuff.

alexusjonesfan
Oct 14th, 2003, 12:22 AM
Whoa, lotsa bible haters out there :o

nash
Oct 14th, 2003, 12:39 AM
So what about Snowwhite?

Anybody? Knizzle?

OK - One quick response and I'll try to write more tomorrow (I've already blown off one day of work arguing my point) :-)

Snow White is obviously fiction. It is the work of the Walt Disney Corporation. I even have it on video (for my children of course) :angel:

The Bible is Non-Fiction. Peter, John, Paul, and the other apostles (And Jesus Himself, of course) met and spoke with thousands of people and performed many works as documented in the New Testament. Nowhere do you see any of these people saying that there was no Paul or no Peter, etc... Even the Jews who crucified Jesus admit that He's a real person - they just think he was a fake.

Josephus and other early Historians wrote about Jesus. Were they part of the conspiracy as well?

If all of these people are made up fiction, there would be tons of evidence for that. All of the letters and visits that Paul made would have been documented as false and that they didn't occur.

If Paul wrote letters about visiting someplace and there was actually no Paul, don't you think people would know that in their day? There would be outrage!

So, either everyone that Jesus and the disciples met and talked with were part of a vast world-wide conspiracy to protect a religion that they really didn't believe in anyway, OR THEY ARE REAL people.

I obviously can't convince you of this - you'll have to decide for yourself. But to me, the obvious, logical choice is that they are real.

Rtael
Oct 14th, 2003, 12:40 AM
well far be it from me to criticize a man's thirst for knowledge. if indeed that's what it is, then you should enjoy your varied reading. :)



Well I was until TH came and ruined it for me. :mad: :p

Sam L
Oct 14th, 2003, 12:46 AM
OK - One quick response and I'll try to write more tomorrow (I've already blown off one day of work arguing my point) :-)

Snow White is obviously fiction. It is the work of the Walt Disney Corporation. I even have it on video (for my children of course) :angel:

The Bible is Non-Fiction. Peter, John, Paul, and the other apostles (And Jesus Himself, of course) met and spoke with thousands of people and performed many works as documented in the New Testament. Nowhere do you see any of these people saying that there was no Paul or no Peter, etc... Even the Jews who crucified Jesus admit that He's a real person - they just think he was a fake.

Josephus and other early Historians wrote about Jesus. Were they part of the conspiracy as well?

If all of these people are made up fiction, there would be tons of evidence for that. All of the letters and visits that Paul made would have been documented as false and that they didn't occur.

If Paul wrote letters about visiting someplace and there was actually no Paul, don't you think people would know that in their day? There would be outrage!

So, either everyone that Jesus and the disciples met and talked with were part of a vast world-wide conspiracy to protect a religion that they really didn't believe in anyway, OR THEY ARE REAL people.

I obviously can't convince you of this - you'll have to decide for yourself. But to me, the obvious, logical choice is that they are real.
No doubt that those people were real, especially Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, etc.. but that doesn't mean the stories they wrote about were. The people then were gullible, you know? They believed anything. Like for example, when Jesus' body was gone, he must have resurrected. Now that I think about it, some people these days are just as gullible. :p

CC
Oct 14th, 2003, 01:20 AM
A debate on the validity of the Bible or Creation vs Evolution is about as progressive as political parties arguing about which ideology is the right one. People on either side of the argument adopt a superior attitude and try to disprove anything that does not comply with their own way of thinking.

It is pointless for the atheist/scientist to attempt to prove that God does not exist or that the Bible is fairytale. You choose not to have faith in "God," and this is fine. Other people choose differently.

Whatever your argument is, I offer the counter-argument: It doesn't matter because I believe, and no abundance of scientific evidence or logic can extinguish faith.

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 01:31 AM
if i may just make something very clear. once again...the origin of the bible, the old testament was written for jews and we do not in any way shape or form want anyone else to subscribe to it. we do not say it's YOUR true word. it is OUR true word. that others choose to bible thump and evangelize is THEIR problem. but the book, it's teachings, it's philosophy and the faith that comes with believing in it...is for jews.

why are we arguing about the truth/lies of a book that wasn't meant for everyone?

For Jews as an ethnicity? Then it is racism. Plain and simple.

For Jews as followers of certain religion? Then what is primary? The book or the faith?

Sam L
Oct 14th, 2003, 01:32 AM
Whatever your argument is, I offer the counter-argument: It doesn't matter because I believe, and no abundance of scientific evidence or logic can extinguish faith.

Fair enough. And that's fine with me. Different strokes for different folks.

HOWEVER:

When religion starts interfering with society in ways such as: changing science classes so that it has elments of religion; claiming that condoms do not prevent AIDS and claiming that a gay youth who was bashed to death deserved it and so on... then there's a problem. Then we'll hit back. The problem is that most religious people don't follow religion for the sake of following it. They follow it for personal gain, engender hatred for certain groups and to control the world the way they used to be able to. And that's a problem.

Did you get a chance to read that article I posted from Scientific American? These kinds of articles are a result of religious people taking it too far. Going too far to prove the evolution is wrong and at the end it just blows up in the face cause they're ones who are wrong.

So you want to pray in silence, please do so, but don't attempt to change the world with it, cause science is here to stay and if any of you attempt go against it, we'll hit back.

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 01:43 AM
For Jews as an ethnicity? Then it is racism. Plain and simple.

--- yes. so? sue us! i'm sure the patriarchs and prophets didn't set out to write a book to be politically correct. they wrote it for themselves and their own people. that this may seem racist is tough shit. you want a book? have your people write one.1


Resolution 3379.


For Jews as followers of certain religion? Then what is primary? The book or the faith?

--- the book and faith go hand in hand. as far as it being for jews as followers of judaism, yes again.

When a child is born, what faith does it have? How do you know that if given a freedom of choice instead of enforced faith (s)he would have chosen the same?

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 01:51 AM
The problem is that most religious people don't follow religion for the sake of following it. They follow it for personal gain, engender hatred for certain groups and to control the world the way they used to be able to. And that's a problem.


It's not a problem. It is reality. Any contemporary religion has clear and certain political interests as its foundation. People running a church are just expressing those interests and most certainly benefitting from them. True faith has nothing to do with political interests. It's just faith. To believe, you don't need cathedrals, sinagogues, shrines and clerics. If you really believe, why would you need a medium between you and God? Who appointed those people to be your medium? Who entitled them?

Knizzle
Oct 14th, 2003, 01:53 AM
Fair enough. And that's fine with me. Different strokes for different folks.

HOWEVER:

When religion starts interfering with society in ways such as: changing science classes so that it has elments of religion; claiming that condoms do not prevent AIDS and claiming that a gay youth who was bashed to death deserved it and so on... then there's a problem. Then we'll hit back. The problem is that most religious people don't follow religion for the sake of following it. They follow it for personal gain, engender hatred for certain groups and to control the world the way they used to be able to. And that's a problem.

Did you get a chance to read that article I posted from Scientific American? These kinds of articles are a result of religious people taking it too far. Going too far to prove the evolution is wrong and at the end it just blows up in the face cause they're ones who are wrong.

So you want to pray in silence, please do so, but don't attempt to change the world with it, cause science is here to stay and if any of you attempt go against it, we'll hit back.


Where is religion placed in science books besides talking about creation of the world?? Religion does not say gays should be bashed to death, people do. Religion and science do NOT conflict on every hand, actually they don't even conflict the majority of the time. I will pray out loud anytime it is necessary and change the world with it also.

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 01:55 AM
Resolution 3379.

--- the old testament was written far before november 1979 my friend. :)


Most certainly so. Which UN session is closest to those times? can't remember..


When a child is born, what faith does it have? How do you know that if given a freedom of choice instead of enforced faith (s)he would have chosen the same?

--- a child is born a blank slate. parents make his/her choices. what he/she chooses to do with it as an adult is their own choice. that's how i was raised. my father told me as a teenager to study all major religions and to choose what i found to be best for me.

That is very fair. I see no reason to question that. But would you say that parents of most of followers of your religion do not affect their children's choice at all?

CC
Oct 14th, 2003, 01:57 AM
Fair enough. And that's fine with me. Different strokes for different folks.

HOWEVER:

When religion starts interfering with society in ways such as: changing science classes so that it has elments of religion; claiming that condoms do not prevent AIDS and claiming that a gay youth who was bashed to death deserved it and so on... then there's a problem. Then we'll hit back. The problem is that most religious people don't follow religion for the sake of following it. They follow it for personal gain, engender hatred for certain groups and to control the world the way they used to be able to. And that's a problem.

Did you get a chance to read that article I posted from Scientific American? These kinds of articles are a result of religious people taking it too far. Going too far to prove the evolution is wrong and at the end it just blows up in the face cause they're ones who are wrong.

So you want to pray in silence, please do so, but don't attempt to change the world with it, cause science is here to stay and if any of you attempt go against it, we'll hit back.

I printed the article, but I didn't get a chance to read it yet. If I find it insightful in any way then surely I'll offer my opinion.

Regarding your points above: you are arguing against religion in general, but religion is broken down into denominations because although people may be religious, their ideals are not necessarily identical. You must realize that some "religions" are more about politics than anything else. I personally think it is ridiculous and impractical to denounce condoms in order to promote abstinence, and I have no problem with you voicing your dissatisfaction with such attitudes. However, the preceding argument was not about taking political stance against organized, power driven religious groups and their policies. It was about disparaging the foundation on which Christianity and Faith is based upon.

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 02:03 AM
Faith is a result of a religious education most of the time, it's a learned processus, it's not a thing that you suddently have or don't have.

Not precisely. It is not "a learned processus". It is a process of exploration and development of your perception of the world through available sources of information - books, events, history, other people, and all that, being processed by your brain produces that perception as an output product.


People do need a medium. You don't start believing to things which do not make sense in a rationnal point of view. There has to be a medium who "brainwashed" people. I know that word has a negative connotation - anyway one could say atheist are also brainwashed by their atheist parents.

If it would have worked that simply, then Adam and Even would have brainwashed their kids, their kids would have brainwashed their kids, and as the result of all that chain of brainwashing we all would be what.. Jews? I am lost, really..

jacs
Oct 14th, 2003, 02:06 AM
I do... The Old and New Testament are complimentary... Alot of these controversial precepts are explained when you take them as a whole. Read the book of Romans.

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 02:09 AM
parents always affect their children's choices. if they're good parents that is. so whether the choice is about religion, a life partner, career etc....good parents always affect their children's choices. if it were not so, you would be asking for a child to grow up in a vacuum. and that is impossible. children learn from their environment. much the same way that a child learns neglect and abuse at the hands of say an alcoholic/abusive parent.

Suppose, tomorrow, we, President of the world, issue a new law, forbidding any kind of religious propaganda for children younger than 18. Parents are not allowed to get children involved in religious processes, take them to church, make them wear religious attributes, etc. Instead, children are given the special religiously-neutral educational course of "History of religions", prepared by collective effort of all major religions (atheist included ) and historians.

Question 1: Would it make things better or worse?
Question 2: Which religion, do you think, would supported that and which ones would oppose that?

Couver
Oct 14th, 2003, 02:43 AM
Ok I just realized I never answered the question. I've never actually read the entire bible, but I personally believe there are aspects of it that are valid and true. I guess I am biased since I am Catholic :)

However I would like to point out that there are different kinds of religious people. As a Catholic I certainly don't like being judged by the actions of catholic extremists, because I do not share their views! There are many people of all religions who are not extremists and do not follow their religious texts to a tee. Their is a big difference between religious extremists and non extremists.

It is my opinion that there is a higher being, of course I cannot prove it it's just a feeling I've always had. And I feel that they are an all loving being who does not discriminate, regardless of what those who preach the faith might have me believe.

gentenaire
Oct 14th, 2003, 05:57 AM
anyway one could say atheist are also brainwashed by their atheist parents.

I went to catholic schools my entire life, I'd say the majority of the people in my class were atheists (or agnosts). None of their parents were atheists.

Rothes
Oct 14th, 2003, 06:39 AM
Have read the Bible, Have read the Talmud, Have read thre Koran and Have read the Torah and found these doctrines interesting and insightful. and I suggest if anyone has any spare time, to go to your local library and borrow or purchase a Bible and read.

Mitch01
Oct 14th, 2003, 08:49 AM
I'm not Knizzle, but here's one possible answer:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/Magazines/docs/cen_v19n2_animals_ark.asp

I'm sorry I have nothing new or original to add to this thread, but I just wanted to thank you for the laughs this link provided :D

azza
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:17 AM
Nope

gentenaire
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:17 AM
Snow White is obviously fiction. It is the work of the Walt Disney Corporation. I even have it on video (for my children of course) :angel:

Walt Disney made a film out of it, but didn't write the story. The story is much older. It's not because films are being made about Jesus's life, that the producers of the film are the ones who wrote the bible.

The Bible is Non-Fiction. Peter, John, Paul, and the other apostles (And Jesus Himself, of course) met and spoke with thousands of people and performed many works as documented in the New Testament. Nowhere do you see any of these people saying that there was no Paul or no Peter, etc... Even the Jews who crucified Jesus admit that He's a real person - they just think he was a fake.

You can write fiction about existing people too, you know. Just read the tabloids. Santa also really existed, that doesn't mean that it's him delivering presents to the kiddies.

If all of these people are made up fiction, there would be tons of evidence for that. All of the letters and visits that Paul made would have been documented as false and that they didn't occur.

All of these were written at a different time. If you have 10 people writing the same thing simultaniously, I'd be more tempted to believe it. But if you have 4 people writing similar things, with years and years in between, with the later writers adding more details and extra stories, I'm more tempted to believe the later three based their stories on the ones written by the first one and decided to spice it up a little.

So, either everyone that Jesus and the disciples met and talked with were part of a vast world-wide conspiracy to protect a religion that they really didn't believe in anyway, OR THEY ARE REAL people.

None of the people who met or talked with Jesus itself wrote anything down. The stories were told from father to sons, mothers to daughters and only after many many years, did someone write it down. And you take the words written so many years after the actual events occurred at face value. Have you ever heard a story from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone else who heard it from...how much of the story you heard is actually true?

The bible was written by people who believed the earth was flat. If you were to describe how you created something, you'd start by explaning how that thing you created actually looked, right? Why didn't God tell people the earth was round? That's a rather big detail he left out, don't you think?

Just remember, scientists who discovered the earth was round, they were considered evil as well back then. Just as you consider the scientists of today as being inspired by the devil. But guess what, the scientists were and are right. Or do you still believe the earth is flat?

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:22 AM
http://cgi.ncrv.nl/cgi/ncrv/spiritus/index.htm
mainly jewish :D
but with parts of humanism :) and protestantism :eek:

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:28 AM
I went to catholic schools my entire life, I'd say the majority of the people in my class were atheists (or agnosts). None of their parents were atheists.
it's because it's easier being an atheist.... :o

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:29 AM
Suppose, tomorrow, we, President of the world, issue a new law, forbidding any kind of religious propaganda for children younger than 18. Parents are not allowed to get children involved in religious processes, take them to church, make them wear religious attributes, etc. Instead, children are given the special religiously-neutral educational course of "History of religions", prepared by collective effort of all major religions (atheist included ) and historians.

Question 1: Would it make things better or worse?
Question 2: Which religion, do you think, would supported that and which ones would oppose that?
wqe've actually known that to some extent for 2000 years, so no it doesn't change at hing :p

SerialKiller#69
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:31 AM
On the other hand, it's easier to ignore all your reasoning and submit yourself to faith blindly.

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:31 AM
i disagree. anyone who tells you that the bible does not allow criticism is simply a zealot who doesn't know their shit. the bible SHOULD be criticized and analyzed and questioned and doubted. it is the only way to come to any realization of what you choose to believe.
:worship: (again) You continue to amaze me DD :worship: (not just this post, I just reply on this one by chance ;)

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:32 AM
On the other hand, it's easier to ignore all your reasoning and submit yourself to faith blindly.
easier? when you're an intelligent person it's a very difficult thing to do actually...that's the point....

SerialKiller#69
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:47 AM
True. You don't have to be an intelligent person to question your faith. Everyone of us has asked about it somehow but that is discouraged by religion. We're always reminded of this fear of being punished or the concept of hell that believers submit themselves blindly because they feel that to question is to sin.

SerialKiller#69
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:49 AM
My truth is that most parts of the Bible are an old pieces of history, very patriarchal and pictures God as judgmental and ruthless.

gentenaire
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:53 AM
easier being an atheist? I have to disagree. It's much easier to simply explain everything you don't know by saying it's God. Without God, a lot of things seem meaningless. It's easier and more comforting to believe that we're put here for a reason, and not just because the conditions happened to be right.

The reason I stopped believing is simply that what I read in the bible didn't hold, didn't make sense, the stories were too conflicting. As a child I believed in Sinterklaas and the Easter Bunny, I also believed in the bible. Why? Because people told me that's what I had to believe. As I got older, I didn't let my parents or teachers do the thinking for me, I decided to think for myself, decided to use my common sense and I realised the stories in the bible weren't meant to be taken literally. When you don't just read the bible, but read about the history of the bible, when it was written, how things were added later on, how the latest stories are the longest ones, how only the last of the 4 mentions the birth of Jesus, it's not hard to figure out that while their might be a basis of truth, the stories were clearly spiced up.

Kids are being brainwashed, it's that simple.

It's not a coincidence the children of muslims are muslims, the children of catholics are catholics, etc. As a child you're taught to believe what the parents believe. It's not a personal thing, it's not based on facts, it's based on what the parents believe.

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:55 AM
True. You don't have to be an intelligent person to question your faith. Everyone of us has asked about it somehow but that is discouraged by religion. We're always reminded of this fear of being punished or the concept of hell that believers submit themselves blindly because they feel that to question is to sin.
that's not completely true either...it's mainly true for catholicism, where you sghouldn't question anything....for most religions you may question a lot of things, as long as you don't question your faith itself....
and even then, for example in judaism we don't believe you'll burn in hell for committing one sin....we believe in weighting your good deeds against your bad deeds....

Crazy Canuck
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:55 AM
If you're this cynical this young, then I honestly feel sorry for you.
*ahem* Don't knock the cynical :p (not that I agree with Rtael, but I felt the need to stick up for my cynical relatives everywhere :p)

skanky~skanketta
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:56 AM
i believe in MOST part of it, but not all.

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 10:02 AM
easier being an atheist? I have to disagree. It's much easier to simply explain everything you don't know by saying it's God. Without God, a lot of things seem meaningless. It's easier and more comforting to believe that we're put here for a reason, and not just because the conditions happened to be right.

The reason I stopped believing is simply that what I read in the bible didn't hold, didn't make sense, the stories were too conflicting. As a child I believed in Sinterklaas and the Easter Bunny, I also believed in the bible. Why? Because people told me that's what I had to believe. As I got older, I didn't let my parents or teachers do the thinking for me, I decided to think for myself, decided to use my common sense and I realised the stories in the bible weren't meant to be taken literally. When you don't just read the bible, but read about the history of the bible, when it was written, how things were added later on, how the latest stories are the longest ones, how only the last of the 4 mentions the birth of Jesus, it's not hard to figure out that while their might be a basis of truth, the stories were clearly spiced up.

Kids are being brainwashed, it's that simple.

It's not a coincidence the children of muslims are muslims, the children of catholics are catholics, etc. As a child you're taught to believe what the parents believe. It's not a personal thing, it's not based on facts, it's based on what the parents believe.
ah but that's the difference...people shoeldn't tell you what you have to believe...my parents don't believe for example.....
and if things don't hold in the bible it's because you have to interpret things first, not take everything litterally.....you say it yourself...so?
but common sense...the thing is common sense often tells us things that turn out to be false....think for example of quantum physics....totally against common sense...still it's there, innit?
and about "you believe whatyour parents believe"? as you're saying your parents believe and you don't? where's cdommon sense there? religion is disappearing slowly in our western culture, so it doesn't even hold statistically, whereas for example I believe while my parents don't, my girlfriend has her belief while her parents don't...etc....
Kids ARE being brainwashed, that's true....in catholicism.....but when you're not brought up by believing people, or by moderate people (jewish moderates for example) the brainwashing just isn't there...you make a choice for yourself, that's all....

Rothes
Oct 14th, 2003, 10:03 AM
Kids have been brainwashed?

It's called religious influence, of what your parents think is right for your theological well being. Calling it Brainwashed it just a tad harsh don't you think. and especially to the Children and Public who enjoy going to church at such a adolescent age. I went to Sunday School, and Church twice each Sunday and to which now I still enjoy it immensely, I don't think I would be a better person even If I didn't go to Church. I had no choice but to go to school, and so I chortled of, the same for me was for Church, though I must concur that Church is not as compulsory as having an education system. My Friends and classmates alike. I don't see what is completley wrong with growing up religiously the same way your parents have grown up, By the time you learn to be independent is the time when you can re-evaluate where you stand religiously, where you would like to convert or like to practice.

SerialKiller#69
Oct 14th, 2003, 10:03 AM
that's not completely true either...it's mainly true for catholicism, where you sghouldn't question anything....for most religions you may question a lot of things, as long as you don't question your faith itself....
and even then, for example in judaism we don't believe you'll burn in hell for committing one sin....we believe in weighting your good deeds against your bad deeds....

I'm referring to Catholicism which used to be my religion. I am religionless at the moment and perfect happy, content and at ease with that decision. My truth is that there is no such thing as hell. It absolutely contradicts to a loving, merciful and compassionate God.
When you begin to accept that, then you'll view your actions differently. I don't mean to be preachy here but these are my beliefs. I recommend everyone to read Conversations with God.

Rothes
Oct 14th, 2003, 10:05 AM
Kids ARE being brainwashed, that's true....in catholicism......

Would you mind explaining to me what this was supposed to mean? and in what context?

Crazy Canuck
Oct 14th, 2003, 10:15 AM
So then we should go have our brains scanned and find out who is a serial killer beforehand and then eliminate them before it happens??

Nah, then we would be playing creator, and God doesn't like that. I'm not sure why not, but I've been told this by religious fundementalists on TV, so it must be true, since they are obviously inspired by God, and are thus speaking his words.

Colin B
Oct 14th, 2003, 10:17 AM
parents always affect their children's choices. if they're good parents that is. so whether the choice is about religion, a life partner, career etc....good parents always affect their children's choices. if it were not so, you would be asking for a child to grow up in a vacuum. and that is impossible. children learn from their environment. much the same way that a child learns neglect and abuse at the hands of say an alcoholic/abusive parent.

This kind of contradicts what you said before about your own father; that he had told you to study all the religions before making up your own mind.
Good parenting is about teaching children to seek the facts and come to their own conclusions, if neccessary, allowing them the space to rebel against parental choices.

BTW, I've noticed that you write 'xtian', presumably instead of 'Christian'. Please tell me this is just an abbreviaton (like 'xmas') and not some kind of law of your religion, (like 'G-d').

Crazy Canuck
Oct 14th, 2003, 10:19 AM
!!!!!!!!!!

That link is one of the most insane things I've ever read, including the website about serial killers which Rebecca linked to the other week.

It's also incredibly amusing :lol:

*ahem* Those serial killer links are not insanity :p They contain lots of interesting information, case files, etc... I read them for a course I'm taking :p

skanky~skanketta
Oct 14th, 2003, 10:28 AM
its not about brainwashing. kids need religion, kinda like a security blanket. i mean, they need to learn values and stuff and naturally the parents will teach them what they believe. you cant let a child grow up religionless because that way they they will most probably turn out to be delinquents. if they want to change their religion, they can do it once they are mature enough to decide.

Josh
Oct 14th, 2003, 10:33 AM
its not about brainwashing. kids need religion, kinda like a security blanket. i mean, they need to learn values and stuff and naturally the parents will teach them what they believe. you cant let a child grow up religionless because that way they they will most probably turn out to be delinquents. if they want to change their religion, they can do it once they are mature enough to decide.

Uhm you can perfectly raise children without religion. Religion does not have the exclusive rights over values.

Crazy Canuck
Oct 14th, 2003, 10:39 AM
it's because it's easier being an atheist.... :o

Unless you spent part of your life as an athiest, you haven't a f-ing clue and shouldn't spout off BS about things you will never understand. That goes for people who say it's "easier to have faith" as well. If you've never had something, how the fuck can you comment on how "easy" or "difficult" it is to be of said belief?

Crazy Canuck
Oct 14th, 2003, 10:41 AM
easier? when you're an intelligent person it's a very difficult thing to do actually...that's the point....
Much like it's difficult for any intelligent person to make a decision in either direction... either to have faith or not to have it.

Crazy Canuck
Oct 14th, 2003, 10:46 AM
Kids ARE being brainwashed, that's true....in catholicism.....but when you're not brought up by believing people, or by moderate people (jewish moderates for example) the brainwashing just isn't there...you make a choice for yourself, that's all....

*ahem* If you are raised Jewish, regardless of wether or not you are encouraged to make your own choice once you are mature enough to properly do so, you are still exposed to many of the sociocultural influences that a child raised catholic would! If this wasn't the case, we'd see more catholic kids converting to islam, more jewish kids converting to buddism, etc. etc. To pretend that your religion is somehow void of these effects is erm... ridiculous :)

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 11:00 AM
*ahem* If you are raised Jewish, regardless of wether or not you are encouraged to make your own choice once you are mature enough to properly do so, you are still exposed to many of the sociocultural influences that a child raised catholic would! If this wasn't the case, we'd see more catholic kids converting to islam, more jewish kids converting to buddism, etc. etc. To pretend that your religion is somehow void of these effects is erm... ridiculous :)
I didn't say it was void of it...what I did object to is thinking it's all a matter of brainwashing.....there's a huge gap between those extremes.....btw, there's a lot of people converting to buddhism, haven't you noticed? :p
and in Africa whole countries changed from catholicism to islam.... :p

nash
Oct 14th, 2003, 01:20 PM
Suppose, tomorrow, we, President of the world, issue a new law, forbidding any kind of religious propaganda for children younger than 18. Parents are not allowed to get children involved in religious processes, take them to church, make them wear religious attributes, etc. Instead, children are given the special religiously-neutral educational course of "History of religions", prepared by collective effort of all major religions (atheist included ) and historians.

Question 1: Would it make things better or worse?
Question 2: Which religion, do you think, would supported that and which ones would oppose that?


You are frighteningly close to the book of Revelations without even knowing it...

nash
Oct 14th, 2003, 01:28 PM
None of the people who met or talked with Jesus itself wrote anything down.

Peter and John are NT authors and were with Jesus for years. Paul met and spoke with Jesus on his way to Damascus and was struck blind by the sight. Paul certainly wrote a lot of the NT.

nash
Oct 14th, 2003, 01:39 PM
easier being an atheist? I have to disagree. It's much easier to simply explain everything you don't know by saying it's God. Without God, a lot of things seem meaningless. It's easier and more comforting to believe that we're put here for a reason, and not just because the conditions happened to be right.

The reason I stopped believing is simply that what I read in the bible didn't hold, didn't make sense, the stories were too conflicting. As a child I believed in Sinterklaas and the Easter Bunny, I also believed in the bible. Why? Because people told me that's what I had to believe. As I got older, I didn't let my parents or teachers do the thinking for me, I decided to think for myself, decided to use my common sense and I realised the stories in the bible weren't meant to be taken literally. When you don't just read the bible, but read about the history of the bible, when it was written, how things were added later on, how the latest stories are the longest ones, how only the last of the 4 mentions the birth of Jesus, it's not hard to figure out that while their might be a basis of truth, the stories were clearly spiced up.

Kids are being brainwashed, it's that simple.

It's not a coincidence the children of muslims are muslims, the children of catholics are catholics, etc. As a child you're taught to believe what the parents believe. It's not a personal thing, it's not based on facts, it's based on what the parents believe.

Tine -

You are obviously a very intelligent, talented person, and I can appreciate that. You always seem sooo offended by my comments. Every time I post, you and Becca are sure to be there to criticize and ridicule.

Now, I might not be in your league intelligence wise, but I assure you that I am not some simpleton who just fell off the potato truck. I've asked many of the same questions that you are asking and I am satisfied that God is real and is in charge of the Universe. I am 100% confident of that.

You seem very confident that you are right. One of us is wrong, however, and when we die, we'll both find out for sure, right?

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 02:18 PM
:) thank you rand. and if you think i'm going to assist you in derailing this thread for food you may just be right. ;)
koewl! discovered any good food this week? :lol:

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 02:22 PM
this is complete hogwash. and anyone who tells you that you shouldn't question faith (whether it's yours or theirs) is behaving ignorantly and you most certainly shouldn't be a part of their belief system. submitting without true knowledge and choice is astounding ignorance. i suggest that if you are being told this, than the person who's saying it isn't worth your listening to.
I think you should refine this...what if that person is yourself? in the sense that for example for myself I chose (not that long ago, because before I have....)not to question my faith anymore....I believe of course it's possible it happens anyway in the course of my life...but the ideais not to question it anymore.... :)

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 02:22 PM
but then again that doesn't mean I don't question religion anymore, just faith in itself :)

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 02:30 PM
personally i think someone should be appointed to gather up all those religious fundamentalists on television and have them locked up in guantanamo bay for a good long time. they've done so much damage to the general public when it comes to religious interpretation. i see these people as nothing but shady businessmen. the only difference is that their industry is religion.

Religion is no different from any other movement. Any organization, from those defending rights of "disadvantaged" to trade unions and even most of environmentalists - is just a business for their leaders, as usually better brains benefitting from manipulating worse obedient brains.

Josh
Oct 14th, 2003, 02:37 PM
I just wonder...

Why would god, a perfect "being" create a world of chaos...why would he create us? Was it bored of its own perfection which of course would suggest it isn't perfect since it does experience human (and thus imperfect) feelings?

Free will in religion is just a hoax. There can be no free will if you already know the consequences of your choices beforehand. People who chose god will be rewarded while people who didn't will get punished. If you now the consequences of your choice beforehand, you're influenced by them and there is no free will.

Religion also teaches out to help others when they are in need. Why does god not help people who are in need? Why does it allow millions of people starving, why does it allow good people to get murdered? Even if you say that all these bad things are a result of our "free will", you cannot deny the fact that god doesn't interfere. If we see someone get robbed/murdered/raped are we gonna watch and let it happen because it was that criminal's "free will" that made him do what he's doing, even if we could easily help the victim? Of course not cause that would make us a bad person and we could even be trialed for not helping someone in need. So is god bad or is it a sadist that enjoys human suffering?

I'm just wondering...

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 02:44 PM
i think that a healthy respect for all religions is mandatory if we're to all live together as civilized human beings.

As a respect to historical tradition and beliefs of older people yes. As a respect to something that is the biggest thing that divides people all over the world and make them kill each other - no. As a respect to soemthing that was turned into hundreds of businesses of thousands of flavours - no.

I can respect faith. I have very little respect to any religious organisation.

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 02:48 PM
sure rand. of course there comes a time when a person is comfortable and content within the choices he/she has made. however, BEFORE this happens, one must question one's own beliefs.

even though i believe as i do, whenever something comes up that seems another whole interpretation, i still question what i know. why? because i believe that truth is progressive. we don't stay in the same place. we move forward, mesh a few things and change with either the times or the atmosphere. the core belief for me is in G-d. however, all the aspects that surround it are what i tend to go over every now and then and change as i go along. i don't see it as a matter of disrespect or heresy. here's how i see it. if G-d is truly G-d...then G-d should be up to ANY AND ALL questions and naysayings. i couldn't believe in a G-d who wasn't open-minded about my search...even if it involves His/Her existence.
:worship: (this is getting boring you know? :lol: )

Josh
Oct 14th, 2003, 02:52 PM
doesn't contradict it at all. think about it. the statement was a general one. don't parents, whether atheists, xtian, jewish influence the growing minds of their children merely by their acts and behavior? like i said, asking for a child to have NO influence at all is asking for a child to be raised in a vacuum. it's impossible. no matter what, children are influenced (whether religiously or personally) by their parents. and i agree...good parenting is about helping a child to make his/her own decisions.

so i grew up jewish. what did you expect that my family would do? stop going to synagogue every saturday just because i was born? of course not! and...speaking of seeking...when i turned 13, before my bat mitzvah, my father told me to set aside a year to do a study on comparative religions. this included xtianity, buddhism, taoisim, islam and a host of other beliefs including atheism and agnosticism. he also said that in that year, if i wanted, i didn't have to attend synagogue. i could go to church on sundays if i wished. and, if i also wished, i didn't have to attend any of our religious holidays as well. so, for a time, i searched and reported on it. i have attended many xtian churches, mosques, and at one time thought that the true religion was in fact shintoism. in this search i've attended mass and had communion as well. when i studied xtianity the closest thing that made sense to me was seventh day adventism so i attended that church as well and made friends that i still have to this day.

however, in the end, i chose to come back to judaism and stay. it was a personal decision and one that i'm glad that i made. however, i don't speak of xtianity and other religions without some knowledge of how they exegete the word. i think that a healthy respect for all religions is mandatory if we're to all live together as civilized human beings. so...when i decided to that shintoism was the way, my father said to me, "if that is what you believe then i have to respect that. i am the first to admit that i don't know everything. but do me a favor and share with me those things that to you are most important about it so that i can remember to respect your beliefs." did he influence me? most definitely. i knew what i grew up as but i also knew that he expecte me to make my own decisions. THAT is good parenting.

why do i write xtianity? because i do not believe that jesus was the Christ. to write this is to offer my approval an that concept. to me, the Christ is yet to come. and no, it isn't a law. it's a personal decision. writing G-d too is not a law. it's merely a form of respect.

Your father is a wise man DD, but unfortunately not all parents react this way.

I think parents should talk about and explain their belief to their children but they should not decide for the kid to take part in certain religious ceremonies or rituals. F.e. parents should not decide to baptise their children, circumsise their sons, send them to communion, attend mass etc... Kids should take those decisions for themselves when they are old enough to make a decision based on what they feel is true.

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 02:52 PM
when i studied xtianity the closest thing that made sense to me was seventh day adventism so i attended that church as well and made friends that i still have to this day.

That is strange. From all Christian sects that I happened to study, that one seemed to me one of the weirdest ones, with very illogical dogmatism, very irrational hatred to catholicism .every lecture that their missioners had was trying to pass it as the main idea , that catholicism is evil and Pope is devil. But most of Russians who attended the lectures were doing just what i was doing - using it is as an English practice. So we didn't care.

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 02:54 PM
oh you evil man! lol....you wanna talk about food don't you? huh? admit it!!!
yes! I tried already but you ignored me :sad:
I can talk about iPod too if you want :bounce:

Josh
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:00 PM
thank you josh...he is indeed the greatest buddy to have. :) and yes it's unfortunate that most parents aren't so open about dissension among the ranks..lol. i'm just glad i'm a girl, you know? otherwise 8 days into being here i would have had my pecker plucked whether i liked it or not. ;)

:lol:

Well I've heard that the younger they are, the less they suffer. So maybe it's not so bad after all. ;)

vs1
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:04 PM
I don't look at the bible as a work of accuracy and fact, but more a book of wisdom. I think that there are many wise things one can learn from it and the stories are quite intriguing. But I don't view it as a chronology of history. But that's my personal opinion.

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:04 PM
oy! rand, i have two. one is the 20 and the newest one is the 40. what do you have stored on yours?
I don't have a lot yet....bought it friday (a 20....) but my operating system doesn't support it.... so I have to waitt aht someone is willing enough to lend me a copy op his/hers :o
but I went to a friend in the weekend and downloaded what was on his drive.....which are mostly cd's I once lent him :lol:
so I have: a lot of jazz (mainly a lot of Miles Davis, Coltrane, Ella, duke, nina simone,monk....a lot of classical jazz albums acftually....)
a bit of classic (wim mertens mainly....belgian modern composer)
an An Pierlé cd (belgian singer/pianist)
a lot of John Cale
one abba album
and then a lot of loose songs... a bit of punk, a lot of 80's and 60's....
and nirvana albums, but I think I'll delete them except for the unplugged one.....I got bored of them :o

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:06 PM
thank you josh...he is indeed the greatest buddy to have. :) and yes it's unfortunate that most parents aren't so open about dissension among the ranks..lol. i'm just glad i'm a girl, you know? otherwise 8 days into being here i would have had my pecker plucked whether i liked it or not. ;)
hela! it also means we get our first wine after 8 days too, never quite recoverd from that one I think :bounce:

Josh
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:08 PM
hela! it also means we get our first wine after 8 days too, never quite recoverd from that one I think :bounce:

They get 8 days old babies drunk as well? How cruel! :fiery:

;)

I hope it was not a cheap wine like the ones priests use during mass! :o ;)

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:12 PM
this is going to sound funny given the thread we're in, but i have every single fave song of mine as well as the torah...lol. in addition a whole bunch of work reports and a book i'm working on (as backup). i'm not even near to loading these things completely and let me tell you i've got soooooooo much on it.

do you have the attachment to your car stereo so you can listen to your own music?
I don't even have a car :o :lol:
ah well...I intend to start backing up a lot of things too once I get a proper OS...like songs I've recorded on my computer at home....(for which I still need someone to sing on because I really can't sing :o )

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:12 PM
here's why i have an enormous respect for seventh day adventists and their beliefs. xtians are always talking about following the bible and doing G-d's will. for me? in my search? seventh day adventists come the closest to following what they say. if indeed the belief is in the nt, i cannot find a xtian religion whose interpretations of it make more sense. perhaps it's weird to you. if it is, then perhaps your exegesis of the nt isn't complete. they speak by the law and the prophets and yes, they indeed follow the dictates of their professed belief. that i can respect.

All they do is creating a very weird interpretation of nt, mixing it well with quiet whispering us some silly crap like that their current leader is probably a prophet ( just like William Miller, of course ), but they would not say so it in lecture.

And that intepretation can convince you if you are ready to be convinced. Other than that it is just another American sect with another bs interpretation of Christianism. Like Mormons.

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:13 PM
I'm also intending to put ALL my cd's on mp3 (once I get....)

Josh
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:15 PM
I'm also intending to put ALL my cd's on mp3 (once I get....)

Which album of An Pierlé, Mud Stories or Helium Sunset? I have Mud Stories but I haven't purchased the other one yet but I've heard it's even better.

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:18 PM
Which album of An Pierlé, Mud Stories or Helium Sunset? I have Mud Stories but I haven't purchased the other one yet but I've heard it's even better.
both...well it'sd difficult to say...it's a very different album...a few friends of mine hate it, because her piano isn't as present as it was on mud stories, in the beginning I also like mud stories better, but helium sunset grew on me.....but only after I saw An pierlé live in brussels.....then it started making sense to me, and now indeed I like it more than mud stories :)

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:20 PM
is it a mac os you're using or pc?
pc....I know I should use a mac but they were too expensive for me when I started making music, ghot used to the progs on pc, and now I'm thinking, well, it works fine on pc and if I need really decent quality the mac won't be enough either....unless I spend a LOT of money....

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:20 PM
i agree that their whole interpretation of a prophet (ellen g. white) was the main and foremost reason why i couldn't come to terms with everything they teach. and yes, it's much like william miller and the whole debacle of the second coming in the 1800's.

as you can see, i wasn't ready to be convinced. i am not an adventist. however...i am still maintaining that there is much to be said for their belief system and how they carry it through. some of the most decent xtians i've come across are sda's.

Have you studied The Orthodox Christianism?

Josh
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:23 PM
both...well it'sd difficult to say...it's a very different album...a few friends of mine hate it, because her piano isn't as present as it was on mud stories, in the beginning I also like mud stories better, but helium sunset grew on me.....but only after I saw An pierlé live in brussels.....then it started making sense to me, and now indeed I like it more than mud stories :)

I'm listening to Mud Stories now...It had been a while. :)

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:25 PM
I'm listening to Mud Stories now...It had been a while. :)
on that cd I like siamese twins most, together with ma dogs bite :bounce:

Josh
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:28 PM
on that cd I like siamese twins most, together with ma dogs bite :bounce:

Siamese Twins is one of my favourites as well. I also like Telephone and Tower.

It's Mad Dog Watch...;)

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:28 PM
yes i have. is that your persuasion?

No. Not at all. First of all, from moral point of view, because in Russia they let themselves be turned into KGB church. Secondly, they are really "orthodox", very conservative.

I do find that church seriously different from all other Christian flavours, because when is not corrupted, it is really, deeply spiritual stuff. I have few of my friends accepting it in a reasonably mature age ( late twenties ), which I consider as a sign of powerful persuasion.

But, no, it is definitely not mine too.

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:31 PM
Siamese Twins is one of my favourites as well. I also like Telephone and Tower.

It's Mad Dog Watch...;)
ah if makes more sense fhat way :lol: sorry I never bofher abouf fifles

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:35 PM
ah if makes more sense fhat way :lol: sorry I never bofher abouf fifles
*washes his feefh wifh soap because he puf a few "f"'s in fhaf posf*

Josh
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:38 PM
*washes his feefh wifh soap because he puf a few "f"'s in fhaf posf*

:smash: :devil:

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:40 PM
now DD what are you going to eat tonight? I'm getting hungry and I'm not very inspired today it seems....

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:45 PM
i've always found that their nicene-constantinopolitan creed is interesting. given the fact that their earlier ecumenical councils met during the most horrendous of times, it's a miracle that they came up with an ism of any sort at all.


Perhaps it was not as horrendous as history tells us. In 17 centuries our descendants will have a very good idea of what we were like, simply because we did come up with very good ways of documenting the two most important human senses. But what was happening 17 centuries ago will remain a mystery. All scarce documents from those times obviously had some certain share of political motivation in them. We just have no clue how big that share was. We don't even know should Christian church really exist now in first place, or was its creation just a whimsical gesture of some Roman Emperor who simply elevated a relatively minor exotic religious sect to the level of dominant church. Could be like that too. We don't know. Not enough information.


however, you're right. in it's purest form it is quite a faith to behold. unfortunately it's been extremely tainted with politics.

In Russia they got from government a privilege to sell vodka and tobacco tax-free. Can you believe them after that?

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:45 PM
lol..it's about TIME someone took a hammer to that him! :p ;)
:sad:

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:51 PM
koewl...it's ok...haven't eaten shii-take or asparagus in a while....so that's a good idea....don't want the filet mignon though....
ok, so maybe duckbreast in a honeysauce.....
wokking shii-takes with a bit of pak choy, soya sauce and noodles....
with asparagus "a la flamande" as a teaser....good thinking, thanks DD :)

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:52 PM
what about you? what culinary delights have you decided on? :)
I hadn'f decided, fhaf's why I was asking :)

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:54 PM
koewl...it's ok...haven't eaten shii-take or asparagus in a while....so that's a good idea....don't want the filet mignon though....
ok, so maybe duckbreast in a honeysauce.....
wokking shii-takes with a bit of pak choy, soya sauce and noodles....
with asparagus "a la flamande" as a teaser....good thinking, thanks DD :)
since fhis was fhe lasf posf of fhat page, I just quofe if :)

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:55 PM
i use both as well, rand. however, i find that the greatest quality i get is from mac os x. i don't know about pricing, but with i do believe that the g-4 has gone down in price considerably. check it out.
I know but for the moment I just would'n have any use of it :)

Josh
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:56 PM
I'm just having spinach in cream sauce with potatoes and rumsteak. So nothing "haute cuisine" for me. :lol:

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:57 PM
have you ever marinated shiitake mushrooms in a white wine vinegar with some fresh herbs and olive oil and then grilled it after a few hours? it is sooooo good, rand.
acfually I'll fry fhaf on of fhese days....fhanks again :)

gentenaire
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:59 PM
iPod?!! Talking about iPod!! I'm the proud owner of a 30G one. (they introduced the 20 and 40G ones exactly one week after I bought mine :mad: )

I've been stealing my brothers' and sister's CD collections, am putting all that music on my iPod. And I'm still waiting for the iTrip, I ordered it, it should arrive this month. Apparently those things are so popular they were sold out right away.

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:00 PM
oy...duck in honey/orange sauce is heaven!!!!! :drool:
yep....buf you can'f eaf eaf foo offen, because if's nof faf enough :eek:

gentenaire
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:00 PM
and why am I not surprised that a religious topic once again turned to food, thanks to DD and rand ;)

gentenaire
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:01 PM
I'm totally in love with my ipod. Rand just copied me :p

Josh
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:03 PM
I'm totally in love with my ipod. Rand just copied me :p

Me thinks rand has had a taste of Tine's garlic paste. :lol:

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:03 PM
I'm totally in love with my ipod. Rand just copied me :p
I didn'f even know you had one :lol:
buf a friend of mine already copied me by buying one foday :lol:

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:04 PM
Me thinks rand has had a taste of Tine's garlic paste. :lol:
this sounds so wrong I'm actually using "t"'s again :lol:

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:05 PM
awwww...i completely understand. i'm in love with mine as well. :) and yes...rand copied me too. ;) :p
:sad: the're always picking on /me :sad:

gentenaire
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:05 PM
did you keep the cute box?

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:06 PM
of course :)

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:07 PM
oh please....i haven't thrown away ANYTHING that came with my ipods. even the BAGS are cute!!! lol....
:lol:

gentenaire
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:07 PM
Don't you just love opening that cube, realising someone really thought about how to pack that thing, convinced you're buying a quality product?

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:08 PM
I'm totally in love with my ipod.:p

Tine.. You change so quickly. Now you are in love with iPod.. Just 40 minutes ago in another thread you introduced us another gadget..

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:08 PM
Don't you just love opening that cube, realising someone really thought about how to pack that thing, convinced you're buying a quality product?
that's apple for you :)

gentenaire
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:08 PM
You know, I bought mine in the US and had the box sent by mail ;) I didn't want to be caught at the airport with a brand new ipod + box, etc.

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:09 PM
Tine.. You change so quickly. Now you are in love with iPod.. Just 40 minutes ago in another thread you introduced us another gadget..
the other one is for compensating for the only thing iPod can't do :lol:

gentenaire
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:10 PM
Tine.. You change so quickly. Now you are in love with iPod.. Just 40 minutes ago in another thread you introduced us another gadget..

That other gadget is one I can't use ;) Isn't it funny though how the female version is something that replaces the missing male part, whereas the one for men replaces an available male part.

And isn't it ironic that I'm posting this in a thread about the bible?

gentenaire
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:11 PM
do you think garlic paste could be a good lubricant?

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:12 PM
And isn't it ironic that I'm posting this in a thread about the bible?

It's no ironic. It's symbolic..

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:12 PM
do you think garlic paste could be a good lubricant?
ok, I was was anxious when that one would appear :puke:

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:12 PM
do you think garlic paste could be a good lubricant?

I don't know, I haven't tried it.

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:19 PM
ah well, I'm getting hungry, and my iPod's batteries are running low...so I don't think I'll stay much longer, so I'll already say :wavey:

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:21 PM
i believe wholeheartedly that this is the influence of that tube of a concoction she has. personally? i fear for her...i really do. ;)

What kind of concoction?

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:22 PM
:) we love you rand! :kiss:
[puppy eyes mode=on]
really?
[/puppy eyes mode]

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:22 PM
:lol: however, they're coming out with a new attachment that......;)

Brilliant idea, actually. Can you imagine how would it 9 that attachment )work with the right kind of music coming from iPod?

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:23 PM
:lol: however, they're coming out with a new attachment that......;)
:lol:
but now I'm REALLY gone I think...though probably there's another way too funny post waiting for me to reply on :sad:

ys
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:24 PM
maybe you should ask tine about this one ys. i would tell you for sure. but it's of an extremely personal nature, you know? ;)

Tine? is it a secret?