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Sam L
Oct 13th, 2003, 06:54 AM
This is the article where creationists get slammed, so stay out if you can't take the heat. :devil:

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15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense
Opponents of evolution want to make a place for creationism by tearing down real science, but their arguments don't hold up
By John Rennie

When Charles Darwin introduced the theory of evolution through natural selection 143 years ago, the scientists of the day argued over it fiercely, but the massing evidence from paleontology, genetics, zoology, molecular biology and other fields gradually established evolution's truth beyond reasonable doubt. Today that battle has been won everywhere--except in the public imagination.

Embarrassingly, in the 21st century, in the most scientifically advanced nation the world has ever known, creationists can still persuade politicians, judges and ordinary citizens that evolution is a flawed, poorly supported fantasy. They lobby for creationist ideas such as "intelligent design" to be taught as alternatives to evolution in science classrooms. As this article goes to press, the Ohio Board of Education is debating whether to mandate such a change. Some antievolutionists, such as Philip E. Johnson, a law professor at the University of California at Berkeley and author of Darwin on Trial, admit that they intend for intelligent-design theory to serve as a "wedge" for reopening science classrooms to discussions of God.

Besieged teachers and others may increasingly find themselves on the spot to defend evolution and refute creationism. The arguments that creationists use are typically specious and based on misunderstandings of (or outright lies about) evolution, but the number and diversity of the objections can put even well-informed people at a disadvantage.

To help with answering them, the following list rebuts some of the most common "scientific" arguments raised against evolution. It also directs readers to further sources for information and explains why creation science has no place in the classroom.

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The rest of the article, the 15 answers, can be found here (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa008&articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&pageNumber=1&catID=2). It's too big for me to post it.

I hope that most of you read it, cause some of the ridiculous claims made against evolution and science are thoroughly rebutted here. Once again, a perfect example of science making religion look like the foolish little sister.

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:05 AM
A perfect example of the devil making a fool out of humans.

Sam L
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:08 AM
A perfect example of the devil making a fool out of humans.
Is this the best comeback you have for this article?

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:11 AM
You mean, the same devil inspired humans who used all their scientific non-sense to create medicine, technology, etc?

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:20 AM
Knizzle, do you think doctors are lying when they're saying that bacteria are becoming more and more resistant to antibiotica, because people are using it too much? So after a while, the antibiotics we have now won't help against the stronger bacteria.
That's evolution.

And how do explain all the different races, Knizzle? How can all these different races have sprung from just Adam and Eve?

Rtael
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:12 AM
Here's a thought. Adam and Eve. Only Had Sons. Think of the incest involved in propigating the entire human species :eek:

Crazy Canuck
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:35 AM
Apparently Satan invented science to confuse us. Clever little fellow :)

*JR*
Oct 13th, 2003, 12:07 PM
I KNEW this was all King :devil: 's fault! And IMO the world may be a sort of ant-farm with our collective actions (human, animal, plant, climate, etc.) being simply studied by some beings of higher intelligence. Gosh, they might even have made notes on the RG hand controversy! :eek:

rand
Oct 13th, 2003, 12:13 PM
Here's a thought. Adam and Eve. Only Had Sons. Think of the incest involved in propigating the entire human species :eek:
can you give proof of the "only sons"?

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 01:24 PM
can you give proof of the "only sons"?

What does it matter? Mother and son, brother and sister? It's all incest and the babies produced by these kind of couples would most likely have lots of defects.

Which makes me thing...basically the bible is saying incest is okay?

And I repeat the question, how do you explain all the different races if there's no evolution?

rand
Oct 13th, 2003, 01:52 PM
What does it matter? Mother and son, brother and sister? It's all incest and the babies produced by these kind of couples would most likely have lots of defects.

Which makes me thing...basically the bible is saying incest is okay?

And I repeat the question, how do you explain all the different races if there's no evolution?
I know but it does show that he knows nothing about the bible....
about bible <-> incest, it says basically:ita was allright until a certain point, because at that time it was a matter of survival...the degeneration starts after a while, when incest isn't necessary anymore....so from then on it gets banned.....
the different races...ahem....the point is (for most people) not about NOT believing in evolution...what most people say is:first creation, then evolution .... :p

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 01:54 PM
NOT believing in evolution...what most people say is:first creation, then evolution .... :p

For most people, yes. Not for people like Knizzle and the ones this article attacks. Evolution is a fact. What came first, what came before evolution started, that, we don't know.

Ryan
Oct 13th, 2003, 02:42 PM
Although I agree with the premis of the article, my god was it boring. Thanks for posting it Sam. ;)

Halardfan
Oct 13th, 2003, 02:46 PM
Evolution certianly isn't something that should be denied in this day and age...it only really is denied by backward people, for whom such a belief is only one of their stupid ideas about the world.

As for the origins of the universe though...who knows? Religion neatly likes to put humanity at the centre of the vast universe, just as people once used to put the earth physically at the centre of universe...while science has hundreds of often contradictory views on what the universe is, and how it came about...

It would be great to know, but maybe we people just aren't smart enough to grasp the concept of a universe that may go on forever...and could be who knows what...

alexusjonesfan
Oct 13th, 2003, 02:50 PM
Will no one help prop up the creationist camp?
I hate one sided debates :D

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 02:54 PM
Well, caelestia, if you have a discussion about 1+1=2, you'll have a hard time finding people backing up the 1+1 isn't 2 theory ;)

alexusjonesfan
Oct 13th, 2003, 02:56 PM
Well, caelestia, if you have a discussion about 1+1=2, you'll have a hard time finding people backing up the 1+1 isn't 2 theory ;)

shut up, 1 + 1 = 2 is just a threory, not proven fact...actually, I think all mathematics hinges on that theory but I don't care, I'll argue against it if I want to :D

rand
Oct 13th, 2003, 03:06 PM
shut up, 1 + 1 = 2 is just a threory, not proven fact...actually, I think all mathematics hinges on that theory but I don't care, I'll argue against it if I want to :D
actually that's not true :p
it's a choice...a bit like believing or not believing in G'd :lol:

Martian Willow
Oct 13th, 2003, 03:31 PM
...I've already explained my thoughts on the matter...but apparently they were just 'cheap youth philosophy'... :sad:

:)

treufreund
Oct 13th, 2003, 04:18 PM
I can't believe ignorant ass people believe in that creationist trash. How mindless! :rolleyes: :fiery:

Colin B
Oct 13th, 2003, 04:27 PM
Yep. I enjoyed reading the article but I think it's too soon to have this debate again. As I said last time, I believe fully in evolution but that's not to say there wasn't a spiritual force behind it. Maybe before S/He thought up mammals, The Great Spirit (whatever you want to call Her/im) had a lot of fun with dinosaurs; I know I would have.

I could not be 100% sure either way about Faeries at the bottom of the garden, Monsters in Lock Ness, Yetis in the Himalayas, Mermaids in the sea or Garlic Paste in a marinade; in fact there's a part of me that wants to believe in them (well, maybe not the Garlic Paste), so who the fuck am I to deny anyone else the right to have faith in their own beliefs.

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 04:31 PM
Colin, I can tell you there are ghosts in our lab here. Scales have disappeared (we used to have 4, now we only have 1!), a ladder disappeared, a saw, the glass lid of a diffusion cell fell to the floor in a room that is locked (key is in a cupboard next to the door), we don't know who did it.

And money disappeared from the secretary's wallet...

Being a ghost must be a well paid job, I think.

rand
Oct 13th, 2003, 04:41 PM
:lol:

Colin B
Oct 13th, 2003, 04:50 PM
Colin, I can tell you there are ghosts in our lab here. Scales have disappeared (we used to have 4, now we only have 1!), a ladder disappeared, a saw, the glass lid of a diffusion cell fell to the floor in a room that is locked (key is in a cupboard next to the door), we don't know who did it.


There we are, are scientist who is prepared to believe in the possibility that her lab may be haunted! As I said above: none of us can be absolutely 100% sure either way.

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 04:52 PM
erh, for the record, I was joking.

I'm determined to catch the thief!

rand
Oct 13th, 2003, 04:54 PM
erh, for the record, I was joking.

I'm determined to catch the thief!
go Tine! :lol:

Colin B
Oct 13th, 2003, 04:57 PM
erh, for the record, I was joking.

I'm determined to catch the thief!

There we are, a scientist with a sense of humour. Anything is possible!! ;)

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 04:58 PM
There we are, a scientist with a sense of humour. Anything is possible!! ;)

heh? :confused:




































;) ;) ;) :lol:

rand
Oct 13th, 2003, 04:59 PM
There we are, a scientist with a sense of humour. Anything is possible!! ;)
helaba! there's more of us around!

Josh
Oct 13th, 2003, 05:09 PM
helaba! there's more of us around!

Scientists ----> :yawn:

Go god! :banana:

CC
Oct 13th, 2003, 05:13 PM
Creationist counter-argument:

Yay God! Come on God! :bounce:

Martian Willow
Oct 13th, 2003, 05:30 PM
Vamos God!!! Vamos!!! :yippee:

Josh
Oct 13th, 2003, 05:30 PM
Allez dieu, allez! :dance:

alexusjonesfan
Oct 13th, 2003, 05:37 PM
I hate it when God's fans don't show up! :D

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 06:21 PM
I hate it when God's fans don't show up! :D

Whereas the scientists are everywhere! Satan is lurking from every corner (rand, you take the left corner, I'll take the right one).

Josh
Oct 13th, 2003, 06:43 PM
Tineeeeeeuh! You know you can't say the S-word!!! :eek:

Rocketta
Oct 13th, 2003, 06:47 PM
I don't mind the evolutionists theories nor do I mind the creationists theories. What I do mind is the egotistical way it is presented and the way the other's opinion is slammed as ignorant/devil worshipping. It makes the whole conversation persona non grata.....:sad:

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 06:51 PM
Rocketta, the difference is that evolution is a fact. You can't deny evolution just as you can't deny that water is fluid, 1 and 1 is 2, etc.

But creationism and evolution can co-exist, it's possible that you first had creation, then evolution.

But just creation, no evolution, that's not possible. And that's the point people are trying to make.

tennisjam
Oct 13th, 2003, 06:54 PM
well, you can't blame religon's representants, their market is still very profitable ;) ...all about business ...

tfannis
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:51 PM
And how do explain all the different races, Knizzle? How can all these different races have sprung from just Adam and Eve?

May I just point out (again) there is no such thing as human races :p Genetic differences are too small :D
However...evolution is a fact...and learning about it is so incredibly interesting....imagine America not teaching evolution anymore at school :eek:

Rocketta
Oct 13th, 2003, 07:53 PM
Rocketta, the difference is that evolution is a fact. You can't deny evolution just as you can't deny that water is fluid, 1 and 1 is 2, etc.

But creationism and evolution can co-exist, it's possible that you first had creation, then evolution.

But just creation, no evolution, that's not possible. And that's the point people are trying to make.

Once again my quibble is not with points of argument just how it is presented on both sides and......

damn girl how in the world did you get 27,000 posts?? :eek:

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:09 PM
Oh yes, it's much more reasonable to assume that all of life just happened to evolve from "primordial soup". Just think of how lucky we are that we evolved to have hands, feet, reproductive organs ;) , etc... How fortunate that our eyes are actually located on our head instead of some potentially embarassing location...

I for one don't buy it. There is no such thing as luck. God made us the way He wanted to make us, and it was no accident. The Bible details the account and I'm much more inclined to believe the Creator of the Unverse than a bunch of scientists...

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:10 PM
Here's a thought. Adam and Eve. Only Had Sons. Think of the incest involved in propigating the entire human species :eek:

They didn't only have sons.

nash
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:16 PM
Why did God created the dinosaurs before us! That's what I really want to know! I thought we are more important.

Man was the last and most important creation... Don't feel slighted - you are way more important because God created you with a soul, something that animals do not have.

Knizzle
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:25 PM
I am not dismissing evolution as devil worship if anyone thought that's what I was doing. There are some things within evolution I do agree with. For example parts of natural selection. I definitely believe God gave his creatures ability to adapt and change to their environments to a certain extent as long as the effect on the ecosystem isn't drastic. The Bible says that God's creatures are fearfully and wonderfully made. When I refer to creation I am referring to God in the Holy Bible. What I am saying is that when the devil gets someone to believe that God doesn't exist, he has you in a bad state.

tfannis
Oct 13th, 2003, 08:28 PM
:eek: om...s as in scientist ;) So nash...you read the article? :o

all life evolved from primordial soup makes sense :) Evidence is there :) Still...people ignore it and call it "a bunch of scientists" :rolleyes: Then they pick up some book, point at it and call it "the truth" :eek: Oh well...the human brain isn't at is peak yet so it seems :angel:

TennisHack
Oct 13th, 2003, 09:36 PM
i couldn't agree more rocketta. :)

Ditto :)

Oh, the irony of making myself a dittohead in a thread about creationism vs evolutionary theory :lol:

Since it seems to be science vs religion day here at WTAW, I'll just c/p a quote I put in the other thread:

"In science, a theory should be "disconfirmable": that is, a theory should imply a set of observations or results that, if found, would prove to be false. (This is the difference between religion and science. There is no conceivable set of observations or results that would prove that God does not exist. He always might just be in hiding. Therefore, the existence of God is not a scientific issue.)" -- David C. Funder, The Personality Puzzle, pg 327


Evolutionary theory (and that's what it is, a THEORY) will never disprove creatonism, because there's simply no way to prove that creationism happened. I know that just eats you logic-minded souls raw, but that's the way science works :)

gentenaire
Oct 13th, 2003, 10:15 PM
Oh yes, it's much more reasonable to assume that all of life just happened to evolve from "primordial soup". Just think of how lucky we are that we evolved to have hands, feet, reproductive organs ;) , etc... How fortunate that our eyes are actually located on our head instead of some potentially embarassing location...

I for one don't buy it. There is no such thing as luck. God made us the way He wanted to make us, and it was no accident. The Bible details the account and I'm much more inclined to believe the Creator of the Unverse than a bunch of scientists...

Actually, evolution says it's definitely NOT luck! We have those things because we need them to survive. The way we are shaped has everything to do with the way we live.

If you say we're exactly as God envisioned us, can you tell me why humans have coccyx (or an appendix for that matter)? What's the purpose of it? It's something we don't need, it's just there. Why? It's no accident you say, so there must be reason we have it.

King Satan
Oct 13th, 2003, 10:23 PM
Both. Creation, then evolution. atleast that's what i think happened.

anyway, god didn't put us here, the aliens did! :bounce:

Cybelle Darkholme
Oct 13th, 2003, 11:18 PM
Is this the thread where the bible thumping fanatics come to say non beleivers are going to hell or are they still busy burning witches?

Sam L
Oct 14th, 2003, 02:39 AM
Man was the last and most important creation... Don't feel slighted - you are way more important because God created you with a soul, something that animals do not have.
Please, you don't even know what a soul is. And thinking that humans are above animals are like thinking that the Earth is the center of the universe. And we all know how that theory turned out. :tape:

Knizzle
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:15 AM
Please, you don't even know what a soul is. And thinking that humans are above animals are like thinking that the Earth is the center of the universe. And we all know how that theory turned out. :tape:

Humans are above animals. God gave us dominion over them.

alexusjonesfan
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:16 AM
Is this the thread where the bible thumping fanatics come to say non beleivers are going to hell or are they still busy burning witches?

*points in horror*
Witch! :apumpkin:

Sam L
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:20 AM
That is what you believe... Yesterday it was dinosaurs, today it's humans, who knows what it will be tomorrow? Probably another kind of animal who will be able to adapt to the conditions humans weren't able to when they dissapeared.
Yeah and then their "gods" will tell them that they're the only ones with "souls" and that we're "underneath" them. ;)

Kirt12255
Oct 14th, 2003, 03:57 AM
:wavey: Hmmm I'm going to tread very softly on this one...it's an argument that has Pro's and Con's on both sides of the coin.

It's the whole chicken or egg first blahh blahh. If we came from atoms then who created the atoms etc etc...this thread will never end.

I'm a Christian but refuse to bible bash anyone. I spend my life in a belief not a "Religion" of Man Made Doctrines. My beliefism is to be Christian like.

Having said that...I believe in both!!

I believe everything was created but yes that they evolve to adapt to their surroundings.

I don't believe that the spirit that makes us individual can evolve, some may say that it is a result of conditioning from our environment...I don't know LOL

The only thing that does make wonder about evolution from the outset, is the Aussie Animal called the Platypus...the most unique creature in the world.

The Platypus is an egg laying mammal, has webbed feet and fur and a duck like bill, is water orientated with a pouch, has poisonous spurs on it's feet, and lives in burrows in banks of rivers that it goes underwater to get to???

So basically it's like an otter or something that had to have sex with like a horse to become mammal, the horse would have to have sex with a duck to get the webbed feet and ducks bill, and then that thing would have to have sex with a Koala for the pouch, which in turn would have to have sex with a stone fish to get the poisonous spurs. (sorry for the mental image all)

I also think the human body is such an amazing thing that could only be created...but having said that I do believe things evolve and adapt....but that they must have been created in the first place...uggghhhh my brain is going to explode.!!!

:worship: Cool thread though :wavey:

Crazy Canuck
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:11 AM
If you say we're exactly as God envisioned us, can you tell me why humans have coccyx (or an appendix for that matter)? What's the purpose of it? It's something we don't need, it's just there. Why? It's no accident you say, so there must be reason we have it.

Those structures are the work of the devil... (s)he put them there to test our faith and corrupt us. WELL DONE SATAN! WELL DONE! :)

Rothes
Oct 14th, 2003, 07:52 AM
No Article is going to change my view on why I agree with Creationsim. The Father put us on this earth for our each and own individual aspects. Then Evolution evolved from creationism :) You can't possibly tell me that evolution evolved us from one single cell? Creationism Must have been involved to start the phase of evolutionism.

King Satan
Oct 14th, 2003, 08:01 AM
Those structures are the work of the devil... (s)he put them there to test our faith and corrupt us. WELL DONE SATAN! WELL DONE! :)
sorry to disappoint you, but i can't take credit for that. ;)

gentenaire
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:06 AM
Then Evolution evolved from creationism :)

I have no problem with people believing in this (as long as it's not literally what's said in the bible because there's enough evidence contradicting that). I don't, but that's my personal belief. But just creationism, no evolution, that's not possible.

You can't possibly tell me that evolution evolved us from one single cell?

We've all evolved from one single cell. In the first stages, an embryo is nothing but a few cells.

Rothes
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:42 AM
I have no problem with people believing in this (as long as it's not literally what's said in the bible because there's enough evidence contradicting that). I don't, but that's my personal belief. But just creationism, no evolution, that's not possible.

I agree Tina, I for once believed that creationsim was the sole of this universe, This however generally is just a theory like the early stages of Evolution. Of which I believed in (This was before I had changed the life to conservatism from orthodoxism) I am still heavily independent on that Creationism was the sole starter of this universe to which we evolved from from evolution. We could say Creation is the Petrol to Evolution.

We've all evolved from one single cell. In the first stages, an embryo is nothing but a few cells.

thus through mitosis cells keep on deviding to many cells...thus into many more until a zygote is formed (The days of Human Biology) I understand thats how sexual reproduction works, and of course the "single cell panorama" also started by fusion and deviding, It's completley different when all living organisms on this earth derived from one particular cell and have evolved into virtually millions and millions and millions of living organisms. Thats where I believe Creationism is at its peak thus making various cells, organisms inorder to add more diversity to the beginning of life.

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 09:57 AM
Tineeeeeeuh! You know you can't say the S-word!!! :eek:
is's Sine acsually :lol:

Josh
Oct 14th, 2003, 11:19 AM
is's Sine acsually :lol:

Fine, acfually. ;)

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 12:06 PM
yeah buf I made a change because Iwanfed foo...beffer fhis way?

gentenaire
Oct 14th, 2003, 12:12 PM
Rand, fsk fsk, imagine falking abouf fhe sasan? Fhaf doesn'f sound righf, does if?

rand
Oct 14th, 2003, 12:20 PM
Rand, fsk fsk, imagine falking abouf fhe sasan? Fhaf doesn'f sound righf, does if?
ah but it's still beffer then euh talking about "beffer" isn'f if? :lol: well well, fhis musf be fhe mosf childish "joke"(actually nof even worfh fhe name....)I ever made.... :lol:

CC
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:43 PM
Dear Sam,

I have now taken the time --- as promised --- to read the article in some parts, and browse in others (after the nature of the article became apparent) and as suspected, I find it to be in vigorous defense of hows, which I can surely appreciate. At this point in my life however, I lean more towards a quest for whys. For me, Science does not provide an answer to the question of purpose. If you can offer any insight into this area, I would be greatly indebted. (I mean this sincerely, for I am in such a desperate state as an imperfect, sinful, suffering human being, that I would welcome any imput, even from the rigid, measured mind of a Scientist).


Eager and At a Loss,
CC

Warrior
Oct 14th, 2003, 04:48 PM
I actually took a course in college on Science & Religion. I have to tell you that it had me convinced that evolution actually happned.

From everything I have learned I can conclude that science can't prove or disprove the existance of God. Scientific discoveries destroy some of the popular scientific beliefs. However, the religion can be adjusted to them. But most importantly science and enhance them! In the class I came accross an amazing concept. It stated that loving God let us develop through evolution, therefore giving us freedom of choice. Otherwise, God would be only a puppet master and certainly not loving.