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Volcana
Oct 11th, 2003, 09:09 PM
Not 'might'. Will. Here's the scenario.

Bush Jr is moving his own people into the power spots in the administration, downgrading the old guard. Condi Rice is in charge in Iraq now, instead of Donald Rumsfeld. Colin Powell always intimated he was a one term Sec'y of State. Richard Armitage is likely to take over that spot.

So what's any of that have to do with the Presidency in 2008.

One of the 'old guard' who's often not exactly 'on message' with the President is the Vice-President. Even after Bush Jr, Rice and Powell all said bluntly, 'we have NO information that Saddam Hussein was involved inthe Sept 11th attacks, Cheney was still trying to make the case.

I think 2nd term, Bush Jr goes for a new Vice-President, and Cheney goes back to Halliburton, who's still paying him anyway. So who's going to be the new VP? Well, who does Bush Jr trust COMPLETELY, who works out fornt, not behind the scenes?

Condi Rice.

So I figure a Bush(el of)-Rice trounces whatever the Democrats offer. Then, in 2008, Bush Jr can't run again.

Who's the likely Republican nominee? Rock-ribbed Conservative, ultra smart, totally trusted by the Republican Establishment and the sitting VP.

Condi Rice.

Who's the likely Democratic nominee? The biggest star in the party who didn't get caught lying to the American people, and their #1 fund raiser.

Hillary Clinton.

So there you have it. Conservative Republicans backing a black woman for President, while the Democrats are backing a Southerner who favors the death penalty. limits on welfare, and voted in favor of the war in Iraq.

Also, Dogs will lie down with cats, there will be a worldwide plague of locusts, and there will be a total eclipse of the sun on election day. :)

ys
Oct 11th, 2003, 09:25 PM
Condi Rice has no chance at all. She and Powell are two voiceless puppets in Bush administration, having no influence whattsoever. Well, Bush is a puppet himself, so , in a sense, maybe..

Hillary - yes, I'll vote for her, she was a sexy lady.

Pureracket
Oct 11th, 2003, 09:27 PM
Unless the Dems get their act together for 2004, I'm writing "Hill's" name in anyway. In 2008, I'm definitely voting for her.

Clearly, she'll be running against Jeb Bush from Florida.

Scotso
Oct 11th, 2003, 09:30 PM
Republicans will NEVER nominate a black woman. Black members or the Republican party are rather crazy, IMO. The Republican party is a white-man's party.

I'm not convinced that the Democrats will lose in 2004, have you seen Bush's approval ratings lately? I don't think Clinton even went that low.

Hopefully Hillary will join the 2004 field, because if a Democrat wins in 2004, she would have trouble getting the nomination from them in 2008.

If Bush does get re-elected, and Hillary does (of course) run in 2008, I'm thinking that she'll handily defeat any Bush croney and be our first woman president. I don't like her as a person really, but I like her policies and I want a woman president.

Volcana
Oct 11th, 2003, 09:32 PM
Condi Rice has no chance at all. She and Powell are two voiceless puppets in Bush administration, having no influence whattsoever.

Well, there are two sentences showing VAST depths of ignorance.

ys
Oct 11th, 2003, 09:34 PM
I'm not convinced that the Democrats will lose in 2004, have you seen Bush's approval ratings lately? I don't think Clinton even went that low.

Hopefully Hillary will join the 2004 field, because if a Democrat wins in 2004, she would have trouble getting the nomination from them in 2008.


Of course, Democrats will win in 2004. That is not even disputable. Economy will not recover by then, and Iraq will be completley radicalized and will go to Islamic hell by then.

alexusjonesfan
Oct 11th, 2003, 09:38 PM
Also, Dogs will lie down with cats, there will be a worldwide plague of locusts, and there will be a total eclipse of the sun on election day. :)

Thanks for the warning Volcana. I'll be sure to prepare

*goes to have dog and cat spayed and neutered, buy locust repellant and extra strong window screens, and makes plans to build a nuclear generator in the basement to power the house*

but how do I prepare for this female president? Maybe I should buy a bra and burn it in my front yard :D

Volcana
Oct 11th, 2003, 09:47 PM
Republicans will NEVER nominate a black woman.

Nobody thought the Brits would ever nominate a woman for Prime Minister. But when Margaret Thatcher came along, every in her party got out of the way, because she was smarter and tougher than them and everybody knew it. Condi's been Bush's intellect since he ran for governor of Texas. She's loyal, nasty, tough and conservative. If Bush says, 'she's who [i]Ip/i] want as the next President', they'll nominate her. Not to get too technical, but a sitting President in the USA pretty much controls his political party. Not necessarily officially, but because the President is virtually always the best fund raiser for the political party, he can just refuse to help his internal opposition, and back others to replace them in the party hierarchy.

Because the President has a lot of control over fund-raising, he de facto has a lot of control over who the delegates are the Republican Convention. That's who nominates the President and VP candidates. If he wants Condi, he can keep all but a token number of the opposition out of the Convention. Remember, Condi's been with him longer than almost anyone else in the administration. Any fight over Bush's loyalty ends in Condi's favor. Anyone he hear's slandering her is gonna get a HARD slap down. If you've been reading the papers, you've seen how nasty the Bushies can be.

Also, the fight over the next President will be fought when they name the new VP-to-be next summer. Because everyone knows the new VP is the heir-apparent. The Republican Party in the USA is designed to be orderly, with power accruing to the top. If Condi gets to VP in the first place, they'll nominate her for President.

The Republican Convention is inless than a year.

kiwifan
Oct 11th, 2003, 09:47 PM
Pres. Rice is the correct answer.

You dumb asses talking about what puppets the blacks in the administration are...

...says more about you than about the Republican party.

Dubya for all his flaws has put more minorities in higher positions of power than any liberal ever did.

Put up or shut up, "enlightened ones". Your version of politics seems to indicate that any black who doesn't agree with your politics is what?

A puppet? A token? Just window dressing?

Now who sounds like the ignorant, right wing assholes?

That's right, you do!!! :p :p :p

Cheers - :cool:

Volcana
Oct 11th, 2003, 09:52 PM
I would have a very difficult time deciding who to vote for in a Rice vs Clinton election.

Pureracket
Oct 11th, 2003, 09:53 PM
Clinton.

Volcana
Oct 11th, 2003, 10:10 PM
Well, either way, at least we get a smart President. Eight years of Bill Clinton kinda spoiled me, but Bush Jr is more of a focus and passion guy. Unlike his Dad, his has 'the vision thing'. But he isn't the equal of either Clinton, or Carter, Nixon or LBJ as an intellect. Not that being super smart is a job requirement for the President. We've had President's who were nowhere near the greatest intellects of their generation from first to present. I just, personally, find great intelligence a comforting thing. Especially in the person with titular ontrol of the most devastating military force in recorded history.

ys
Oct 11th, 2003, 10:22 PM
Pres. Rice is the correct answer.

You dumb asses talking about what puppets the blacks in the administration are...

I don't know why are they chosen to play completely secondary roles to Ramsfeld and Cheney, while having the position which are traditionally the most influential in foreign policy.



...says more about you than about the Republican party.

Dubya for all his flaws has put more minorities in higher positions of power than any liberal ever did.


Oh yeah, Affirmative Action, clap-clap-clap.


Put up or shut up, "enlightened ones". Your version of politics seems to indicate that any black who doesn't agree with your politics is what?


In fact, the "position" of Powell - who was opposed to war in Iraq is closer to mine than of those two other neocon lunatics. And Rice makes an impression of an intelligent thinking person. The more susrprising is that they agreed to be puppets in this game led by neocons, perhaps for team unity sake.


A puppet? A token? Just window dressing?

Now who sounds like the ignorant, right wing assholes?

That's right, you do!!! :p :p :p



Now we are talking on our true intellectual level. :)

Jarrett
Oct 11th, 2003, 10:23 PM
Yeah right. I hope one gets elected in my lifetime though. I am 19 BTW. lol

decemberlove
Oct 11th, 2003, 10:38 PM
id take rice over clinton anyday.

clinton is a smart woman but she rides the coattails of bill too much. i dont like it. be independent and speak something that you believe in rather than waiting for your husband to say it and then regurgitating it.

ys
Oct 11th, 2003, 10:43 PM
id take rice over clinton anyday.

clinton is a smart woman but she rides the coattails of bill too much. i dont like it. be independent and speak something that you believe in rather than waiting for your husband to say it and then regurgitating it.

Double true. Not only she will be riding his popularity, but it will also be because people do not realise how pathetic was Clinton's politics economy-wise, what kind of chances for economical prosperity did he blow, and in how much trouble he put an American economy. Somehow this economical crisis is asssociated with Bush, which is unfair.

Rice is a nice woman, but this whole discussion is useless, because Bush will lose 2004.

Halardfan
Oct 11th, 2003, 10:56 PM
I think the Republicans would probably go for GW's brother, just to continue the long shabby dynasty...hey he couldn't but worse than GW...could he? :eek:

I don't like Rice at all, as far as Republicans go, I'd find Powell's politics a lot more palatable...

It would be great to see Hilary win...but she'd have to have to the courage of her convictions, to be less easily blown off course(Ahem :o )than her husband was, to be true to a liberal agenda, impliment it...otherwise, there is little point people voting for a Democrat who is just Republican-lite...

As to the broader issue of female leaders, hearing Thatcher mentioned, I hope people don't view that vile woman as some kind of role trailblazer in the area...she was a disaster on every level, loved by a minority, loathed by a majority...no British politician in recent memory conjures up such diverse, strong reactions.

Me? I utterly loathed her and everything she stood for. Still do.

decemberlove
Oct 11th, 2003, 10:58 PM
Double true. Not only she will be riding his popularity, but it will also be because people do not realise how pathetic was Clinton's politics economy-wise, what kind of chances for economical prosperity did he blow, and in how much trouble he put an American economy. Somehow this economical crisis is asssociated with Bush, which is unfair.

Rice is a nice woman, but this whole discussion is useless, because Bush will lose 2004.

its true clinton did have holes in his plan, however, it is also bush's job to mend those holes and he has done nothing more than stick his fingers in them to make them larger :)

decemberlove
Oct 11th, 2003, 11:00 PM
btw i think well see a black [well mulatto] male president before a female president of any race.

ys
Oct 11th, 2003, 11:07 PM
its true clinton did have holes in his plan, however, it is also bush's job to mend those holes and he has done nothing more than stick his fingers in them to make them larger :)


You see, Clinton was extremely lucky. Every American economic boom is normally based on one ( or very rarely, more ) points of extreme growth, when some completely new thing hits the markets, creates zillions of jobs and drives whole economy up. In 50s, it was mass car production, in 80s, affordable consumer electronics. Clinton was lucky to have TWO extraordinary points of growth over his two terms - computers and Internet. Both were nearly non-existing on consumer non-corporate market before his term, both his the market during his two terms. If used properly, it could have been used to guarantee economic prosperity for decades. But he blew that chance. It's not clear whether we will have any points of growth of THAT magnitude any time soon, I just don't see anything similar coming yet. Bush has nothing of that kind to lift economy on.And those two Clinton basically wasted just to enjoy relative prosperity for his two terms.

ys
Oct 11th, 2003, 11:10 PM
btw i think well see a black [well mulatto] male president before a female president of any race.

I think all American Presidents will be white. And then.. there will be no more presidents, because .. there will be no America..

Volcana
Oct 11th, 2003, 11:49 PM
I don't know why are they chosen to play completely secondary roles to Ramsfeld and Cheney, while having the position which are traditionally the most influential in foreign policy.


Perhaps you've heard of the Iraq Stabilization Group? Condi Rice is now in overall charge of the occupation of Iraq, not Rumsfeld. I guess Bush Jr decided that that 'completely secondary' thing wasn't working out.

ys
Oct 12th, 2003, 12:02 AM
Perhaps you've heard of the Iraq Stabilization Group? Condi Rice is now in overall charge of the occupation of Iraq, not Rumsfeld. I guess Bush Jr decided that that 'completely secondary' thing wasn't working out.

I guess Bush Jr decided that he can't afford to have someone he depends on to be a scapegoat in something which more and more looked like a lost cause. He preferred to have there someone whose political reputation is of an expendable value. Rumsfeld was simply given an opportunity to wash his hands.

Volcana
Oct 12th, 2003, 12:12 AM
I guess Bush Jr decided that he can't afford to have someone he depends on to be a scapegoat in something which more and more looked like a lost cause. He preferred to have there someone whose political reputation is of an expendable value. Rumsfeld was simply given an opportunity to wash his hands.

Weak.

disposablehero
Oct 12th, 2003, 12:18 AM
Not 'might'. Will. Here's the scenario.

Bush Jr is moving his own people into the power spots in the administration, downgrading the old guard. Condi Rice is in charge in Iraq now, instead of Donald Rumsfeld. Colin Powell always intimated he was a one term Sec'y of State. Richard Armitage is likely to take over that spot.

So what's any of that have to do with the Presidency in 2008.

One of the 'old guard' who's often not exactly 'on message' with the President is the Vice-President. Even after Bush Jr, Rice and Powell all said bluntly, 'we have NO information that Saddam Hussein was involved inthe Sept 11th attacks, Cheney was still trying to make the case.

I think 2nd term, Bush Jr goes for a new Vice-President, and Cheney goes back to Halliburton, who's still paying him anyway. So who's going to be the new VP? Well, who does Bush Jr trust COMPLETELY, who works out fornt, not behind the scenes?

Condi Rice.

So I figure a Bush(el of)-Rice trounces whatever the Democrats offer. Then, in 2008, Bush Jr can't run again.

Who's the likely Republican nominee? Rock-ribbed Conservative, ultra smart, totally trusted by the Republican Establishment and the sitting VP.

Condi Rice.

Who's the likely Democratic nominee? The biggest star in the party who didn't get caught lying to the American people, and their #1 fund raiser.

Hillary Clinton.

So there you have it. Conservative Republicans backing a black woman for President, while the Democrats are backing a Southerner who favors the death penalty. limits on welfare, and voted in favor of the war in Iraq.

Also, Dogs will lie down with cats, there will be a worldwide plague of locusts, and there will be a total eclipse of the sun on election day. :)

Obviously tongue in cheek. I'd like to see Condi Rice as US President. She's smart and sexy. Hillary Clinton, on the other hand, is basically just a celebrity. She doesn't have a strong legislative background. (Neither does Rice, but she has had an actual executive portfolio, and a difficult one, not just handpicked assignments for a husband)

You never dump a sitting Vice President. Basically it is equivilant to admitting a massive mistake. Bush senior grappled with this issue. Cheney may be a unique case though, as he could "quit" for health reasons. Anyhow, I figure the Democrats will retake the Presidency in 04. The last thing the Americans need is a free-spending conservative.

ys
Oct 12th, 2003, 12:50 AM
Weak.

In opposite - obvious.

Rtael
Oct 12th, 2003, 01:52 AM
Dubya for all his flaws has put more minorities in higher positions of power than any liberal ever did.






YUO = IGNORANT


Just because someone's black doesn't make them right for the job. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Malin
Oct 12th, 2003, 02:09 AM
I think Powell would have a good shot at prez, but he won't run.

disposablehero
Oct 12th, 2003, 02:18 AM
I think many of you are or have underestimated Ms. Clinton- I am no fan or foe but I think most of what is tauted as Bill's political agenda etc was hers- one and the same


Now who is being naive? An extremely charismatic philandering Rhodes Scholar is his 50's as a puppet for his wife's political agenda? Please.

disposablehero
Oct 12th, 2003, 02:21 AM
Case Study #1: Bill gave Hillary universal health care, she fucked it up, he didn't give her much after that.

Barrie_Dude
Oct 12th, 2003, 02:29 AM
Condi Rice has no chance at all. She and Powell are two voiceless puppets in Bush administration, having no influence whattsoever. Well, Bush is a puppet himself, so , in a sense, maybe..

Hillary - yes, I'll vote for her, she was a sexy lady.
Hillary? Sexy? :scared:

Peter M
Oct 12th, 2003, 02:35 AM
Condi Rice has no chance at all. She and Powell are two voiceless puppets in Bush administration, having no influence whattsoever. Well, Bush is a puppet himself, so , in a sense, maybe..




Connie Rice is quite likely Bush's closest confidante. It's been said that he trusts her the most b/c of her lack of a political agenda. That lack of agenda will keep her out of the White House (I doubt she wants to be there, anyway). And, there is zero chance that Bush will jettison Cheny in '04.

Nice thought. But, it aint gonna happen.

Sam L
Oct 12th, 2003, 03:08 AM
Go Hilary!

Sam L
Oct 12th, 2003, 03:10 AM
Hillary? Sexy? :scared:
Oh you know you want her. LOL! haha

Volcana
Oct 12th, 2003, 03:19 AM
And, there is zero chance that Bush will jettison Cheny in '04.

I really see Bush Jr jettisoning the old guard, and puttin' his boys (or girls, in this case) in place. Things aren't going as planned, and the people fucking up aren't HIS people. They're Respected Republican Canbinet Officials.

Colin Powell proved correct about the need for UN participation. But if you think about, the things he's responsible for as Secretary of State have really deteriorated on his watch. Our countires relations with the rest of the world are at historic lows. (Granted we don't have much history.) And the rumbling around the blogs is that some people think Powell let Rumsfeld hang himself, rather than fight Defense Department policies he KNEW weren't gonna work.

As for Rumsfeld, in any job, when somebody who you thought was junior to you sends you a memo that THEY are now your boss, you've been publicly slapped, and demoted.

I think George Tenet will survive because he's kind of a Bush family retainer (Not officially of coure).

If only Jr would get that psychopath out of the Justice Department.

kiwifan
Oct 12th, 2003, 03:31 AM
YUO = IGNORANT


Just because someone's black doesn't make them right for the job. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You're bringing "apples" into an "orange" conversation, retard.

Remedial speak, Liberals talk, Conservatives - in this case - do.

This isn't theory this is actions taken in the most powerful government on Earth. Republicans don't need to put tokens in positions of power because they have nothing real to gain. The vast majority of minorities are "yellow dog democrats". Their vote is taken for granted to be for the Democrats.

No Republicans and Democrats alike put unqualified white rich kids in positions of importance for token reasons ($$$).

Open your eyes!!!

Got that, fuckwit? :p

I know you're still obsessed with my veal dinner in your honor...

Veal and Fur, perfect together!!! :devil: :wavey: :devil:

Cheers - :cool:

gweeny
Oct 12th, 2003, 06:31 PM
I would prefer a black president, but I am all for Hilary Clinton winning. Go women.

Cybelle Darkholme
Oct 12th, 2003, 10:18 PM
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld canceled a news conference Thursday in part to avoid questions about whether the White House recently reduced his role in Iraq's reconstruction, Pentagon and NATO officials said.

The White House said Monday it is creating an Iraq Stabilization Group to be headed by national security adviser Condoleezza Rice. The group will be responsible for handling the day-to-day administration of Iraq, a task previously handled by the Pentagon.

Rumsfeld was scheduled to brief reporters at a meeting of NATO defense ministers in Colorado. He was questioned at Wednesday's NATO press briefing about his relationship with Rice, a memo she circulated establishing the new Iraq Stabilization Group, and whether he was "in the loop."

The defense secretary has "said everything he has to say about it," Pentagon officials said.

The change in the oversight of reorganization efforts inside Iraq stemmed from numerous discussions on the topic among Rice, Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of State Colin Powell, Rumsfeld and President Bush, a White House official said.

A report in Thursday's New York Times quoted several administration officials who said Rice discussed the issue with Rumsfeld and other members of the National Security Council last week.

Earlier this week, Rumsfeld said he did not remember discussing the topic with Rice. He said he was informed of the creation of the group by way of a memo sent to an undersecretary of defense.

Referring to the flap about the memorandum, a NATO official said they were told Rumsfeld canceled the news conference because he didn't want to answer any more questions on the topic.

But Rumsfeld's chief spokesman said the news conference was canceled so he would have time to meet from representatives of several countries at meetings that were not on his original schedule.

"I would say that is the reason" Rumsfeld canceled, Rumsfeld spokesman Larry Di Rita said.


face it rummy boy has been publicly humiliated. He had no idea his authority was about to be upsurped. You don't do that publicly to someone you respect and have faith in. Face it he's the sacrifical lamb being thrown to the wolves for the fuckup in Iraq.

ys
Oct 12th, 2003, 10:20 PM
face it rummy boy has been publicly humiliated. He had no idea his authority was about to be upsurped. You don't do that publicly to someone you respect and have faith in. Face it he's the sacrifical lamb being thrown to the wolves for the fuckup in Iraq.

there was no fuckup in Iraq as of now. Fuckup lies ahead.

Cybelle Darkholme
Oct 12th, 2003, 10:32 PM
there was no fuckup in Iraq as of now. Fuckup lies ahead.

I beg to differ. Not having a cohesive plan for dealing with the enviornment of a post war iraq knowing that we did not and would not have the support of the international community is a fuck up.

ys
Oct 12th, 2003, 11:17 PM
I beg to differ. Not having a cohesive plan for dealing with the enviornment of a post war iraq knowing that we did not and would not have the support of the international community is a fuck up.

Of course, you're right. But that's formula for those who understands what's going on. 95% don't, and they are electorate. And for them all fuckup is still ahead. When in few monthes Iraq will get radicalized by Islamists, that's when imprsesion of fuckup will start getting to general public. And having a woman for this kind of job in Arab country is just perfect.

Crazy Canuck
Oct 13th, 2003, 02:21 AM
Wait- you quoted some of what i posted and not even that little said anything about Bill being Hilary's puppet :rolleyes: Believe what you will...and Hilary was just a homemaker with no college degree and no political agenda- yeah! I know its hard for some of you men to think that a woman is equally the brains in the family- its okay- i understand. I didn't say she was THE brains, i said its one and the same...
I'm trying really hard to picture Hillary in an apron baking cookies, but keep coming up blank ...

Volcana
Oct 13th, 2003, 02:29 AM
This article (http://www.ngaus.org/resources/rebutable.asp) is rather lengthy. But it's worth it if you want to understand the internal forces at play in the Defense Dept. As the article makes clear, the US military, as currently designed, is not supposed to be able to be deployed for extended battle without calling up the Reserves and the National Guard. That's how the forces are balanced. This is known as the Abrams Doctrine. The Army and the Marines are not supposed to guard oli pipelines and supply depots. That's what the reserves are for. The whole point is that if the nation isn't willing to have the Reserves deployed, they aren't really behind the war. Rumsfeld's whole light fast deployable regular Army is designed to get around this force balance, so the Army can act without the Reserves. Because when the Reserves are called up, people complain.

That's where Bush Jr was really dishonest with the American people. The force balance of the American military is such that, to conquer and occupy Iraq by ourselves, we HAD to call up the National Guard and the Reserves. But Jr knew that people would want better reasons to accept year long Gurad and Reserve deployments than the evidence would support. So he assumed he'd get foreign troops, and went on ahead.

Without the Guard and Reserves, the US military can't occupy even a medium sized country for an extended period, if there's resistance. But since the Guard and Reserves are Joe-Everyman-Middle-Aged-White-Guy, you can't throw their lives away as easily as a bunch of volunteers who are in it for the money and a wau out of a hellhole of a life.

So why is this germaine to the discussion?

Because I think Bush Jr is finding out that he has no fuckin' idea what's going on, and he's going to put his most trusted people in every spot around him. HE didn't know he was about to occupy a country with a quarter the usual number of troops. He has no reason to know what the 'usual number', is. He does know that large Guard and Reserve deployments will likely mean his defeat at the polls next year. So somebody has to figure out what's needed, and get it done without the need for the Guard and Reserves. The somebody is Condi, the means is bribery, and end is foreign troops.

I think Cheney's out of there regardless, especially if his office had anything to do with 'faucetgate'. She's pulls this off, she's a hero.

In America, we like to do this sort of thing quietly, but there's going to be a purge. More to the point, it's already started.