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KoOlMaNsEaN
Oct 9th, 2003, 06:38 PM
LONDON (Reuters) - The lives of Roman Catholics in some of the countries worst hit by HIV/AIDS are being put at even greater risk by advice from their churches that the use of condoms does not prevent transmission of the disease, according to a British television program.

If condoms cannot be absolutely guaranteed to block sperm, they stand even less chance of stopping the much smaller virus, the churches' argument runs.

The Roman Catholic church opposes any form of artificial contraception -- particularly condoms, which it says promote promiscuity.

But the traditional opposition is now being reinforced by arguments over their efficacy.

"The moral argument against the use of condoms is being superseded by a clinical argument which is flawed," said Steve Bradshaw, reporter on the BBC Panorama program "Sex and the Holy City" that will be aired in Britain on Sunday night.

"The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon," Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, told the program.

"The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom."

He said that just as health authorities warned about dangers like tobacco, so they had an obligation to issue similar warnings about condoms.

The Archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki told the program: "AIDS...has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms."

While in Luak near Lake Victoria, Gordon Wambi, director of an AIDS testing center, said he had been prevented from distributing condoms because of church opposition.

Bradshaw told Reuters the program team did not go out looking for the story, but stumbled across it during research.

"We heard the same line so many times from different people in different places that we decided to approach the Vatican," he said.

The World Health Organization, guardian watchdog of global wellbeing, rejected the Vatican view.

"These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million," the WHO told the program.

It conceded condoms could break or be damaged and permit passage of semen, but said they reduced the risk of infection by 90 percent and were certainly secure enough to prevent passage of the virus if not torn.

Panorama said scientific research had found intact condoms were impermeable to particles as small as sexually transmitted infection pathogens -- a view rejected by Trujillo.

"They are wrong about that...this is an easily recognizable fact," he told the program.

From Nicaragua to Kenya and the Philippines, the Panorama team found the same tale from the Catholic church -- that condoms can kill.

No official comment from the Vatican was immediately available on Thursday.

I already knew this but thought u should KNOW EVERYONE!(points finger)

decemberlove
Oct 9th, 2003, 06:52 PM
The Archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki told the program: "AIDS...has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms."

aids hasnt spread fast cos of the availability of condoms... aids has spread cos people like to fuck other people they dont know.

not having a condom doesnt stop too many people from fucking. i only know a few people my age that actually use condoms. and i think a recent poll said something about only 30% of american adults use a condom on a regular basis

JonBcn
Oct 9th, 2003, 07:04 PM
This is fucking outrageous from the Catholic church. They would rather see thousands od babies born HIV+ than have people use contrceptives.

CondiLicious
Oct 9th, 2003, 07:07 PM
All Religious institutions are :tape:

Crazy Canuck
Oct 9th, 2003, 07:25 PM
This is fucking outrageous from the Catholic church. They would rather see thousands od babies born HIV+ than have people use contrceptives.
It wouldn't be the first time that the church preached bullshit in order to control people...

sartrista7
Oct 9th, 2003, 07:30 PM
The Archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki told the program: "AIDS...has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms."

This is just jaw-droppingly, mind-blowingly wrong. I mean... how can they say things like this with straight faces? It's WRONG, in every sense of the word.

ys
Oct 9th, 2003, 07:39 PM
I always knew condoms are evil..

*JR*
Oct 9th, 2003, 10:52 PM
I wonder if the serial child rapists in their clergy use condoms? :confused:

ys
Oct 9th, 2003, 10:54 PM
I wonder if the serial child rapists in their clergy use condoms? :confused:

What for? They could not possibly impregnate their victims anyway.

Crazy Canuck
Oct 9th, 2003, 10:54 PM
I wonder if the serial child rapists in their clergy use condoms? :confused:
Of course not. Using a condom would increase the spread of AIDS, didn't you hear?

Cybelle Darkholme
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:17 PM
Why cant we declare war on the vatican? Get it going Dubwya!!

Crazy Canuck
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:21 PM
Why cant we declare war on the vatican? Get it going Dubwya!!
Cause he's too busy fighting other religions?

No, really though.... I agree. The US should bomb the Vatican - there haven't been NEARLY enough wars fought over religion throughout the history of mankind :devil:

decemberlove
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:23 PM
ha!

Josh
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:24 PM
Why would he bomb the Vatican? I bet he agrees with the pope.

ys
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:26 PM
Why would he bomb the Vatican? I bet he agrees with the pope.

I guess he does.. If US had had quality condoms, he probably wouldn't have been born at all. I am sure his birth was not an intention at the time.

Josh
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:32 PM
I guess he does.. If US had had quality condoms, he probably wouldn't have been born at all. I am sure his birth was not an intention at the time.

Well, looking at his parents I'm not so sure about this.

Rocketta
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:35 PM
Wow and here I thought in the small Villages of Africa, condoms were scarce? :eek:

Well I learned something today. :sad: :sad:

The people that run the Roman Catholic Church are NUTS! Well I guess I should've known that by watching the POPE. So how long ago do you think he died? He looks dead, embalmed and taxidermied to me. :sad:

Josh
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:37 PM
Wow and here I thought in the small Villages of Africa, condoms were scarce? :eek:

Well I learned something today. :sad: :sad:

The people that run the Roman Catholic Church are NUTS! Well I guess I should've known that by watching the POPE. So how long ago do you think he died? He looks dead, embalmed and taxidermied to me. :sad:

You're right...he just doesn't know it yet. :lol:

decemberlove
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:38 PM
:lol: @ rocketta

Crazy Canuck
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:44 PM
They are against sex outside marriage, so they have to be against contraceptive. Nothing surprising.
My problem isn't that they are against contraceptives... that is their own decision to make. It's that they are lying to people who may or may not know better in order to control their behavior that pisses me off.

ys
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:45 PM
My problem isn't that they are against contraceptives... that is their own decision to make. It's that they are lying to people who may or may not know better in order to control their behavior that pisses me off.

Becca, I am getting worried about you.. What inspired you to change your name again? Are you trying to deceive BallsBuster this way?

Crazy Canuck
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:47 PM
Becca, I am getting worried about you.. What inspired you to change your name again? Are you trying to deceive BallsBuster this way?
I changed it on another board and decided that I liked the sound of this one ;)

alexusjonesfan
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:48 PM
My problem isn't that they are against contraceptives... that is their own decision to make. It's that they are lying to people who may or may not know better in order to control their behavior that pisses me off.

Damn, is your name an attempt to start over? I won't let you! :p

Crazy Canuck
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:49 PM
Damn, is your name an attempt to start over? I won't let you! :p
No no... if I wanted a fresh start I'd open a second account ;)

Rocketta
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:50 PM
You're right...he just doesn't know it yet. :lol:


opps! My bad! :o

Sam L
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:53 PM
Down with the Church! down with the church!

alexusjonesfan
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:54 PM
No no... if I wanted a fresh start I'd open a second account ;)

you're forgiven :rolleyes:

sartrista7
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:57 PM
I changed it on another board and decided that I liked the sound of this one ;)

I don't like this one. You should change it back :p

"It's pretty damn obvious why the Catholic Church is against abortion. Too many of them and there'd be no more unwanted, vulnerable children to rape - God forbid." - Julie Burchill

Sam L
Oct 9th, 2003, 11:59 PM
The Roman Catholic church opposes any form of artificial contraception -- particularly condoms, which it says promote promiscuity.

---- What morons? Can somebody remind me that we're living in year 2003 and this is the 21st century? Cause it sure doesn't feel like it, reading some of these articles.

propi
Oct 10th, 2003, 12:04 AM
The problem with the Vatican is that they are not in touch with reality anymore.... time passes and people change, however those never do :rolleyes: if all men are equal why don't they admit women or gay marriage :cuckoo:
What they are doing is become more and more unpopular among youngsters and the rest of people who is not a fanatic.... sad since they should be examples.... :(

Amadé
Oct 10th, 2003, 12:11 AM
The Roman Catholic church opposes any form of artificial contraception -- particularly condoms, which it says promote promiscuity.

---- What morons? Can somebody remind me that we're living in year 2003 and this is the 21st century? Cause it sure doesn't feel like it, reading some of these articles.
http://community.kournikova.com/images/smilies/king.gif What difference does the year make?

propi
Oct 10th, 2003, 12:26 AM
Well they aren't going to change suddently their opinions on a subject, even if time passes and people change. If they believe homosexuality is a sin or whatever, why would they change their opinions now? If they were against contraceptive before, why would they support it now? They just stick to what they believe, and it's normal (for them).
No wonder why Catholic church is losing adepts, even in Spain (that used to be considered defender of Catholicism and is still a huge reference for Catholicism as the Pope admit) young people is fed up and can't understand the position of church :rolleyes:

decemberlove
Oct 10th, 2003, 12:27 AM
The problem with the Vatican is that they are not in touch with reality anymore.... time passes and people change, however those never do :rolleyes: if all men are equal why don't they admit women or gay marriage :cuckoo:
What they are doing is become more and more unpopular among youngsters and the rest of people who is not a fanatic.... sad since they should be examples.... :(

theyve never been in touch with reality

decemberlove
Oct 10th, 2003, 12:29 AM
religion is a product of culture.

the downfall of most religions is they do not want to admit this and that is why they are so slow to change.

alexusjonesfan
Oct 10th, 2003, 12:30 AM
theyve never been in touch with reality

Shh:tape: You don't want the Inquisition to get wind of this do you?!

alexusjonesfan
Oct 10th, 2003, 12:32 AM
It's normal looking at where we are now as a society that the Catholic church is losing adepts. But their role is not to change their opinions to please people or to get more adept.

Actually the church has often done things for 'popular support'--the last time they were out of touch with the people's feelings, Martin Luther came along :o

propi
Oct 10th, 2003, 12:36 AM
Shh:tape: You don't want the Inquisition to get wind of this do you?!
C'mon the Inquisition disappeared long time ago (1842):o
(I can't believe it lasted so long :eek: :tape: )

alexusjonesfan
Oct 10th, 2003, 12:37 AM
C'mon the Inquisition disappeared long time ago
Shh :tape: you never know who might be listening :o

decemberlove
Oct 10th, 2003, 12:37 AM
It's normal looking at where we are now as a society that the Catholic church is losing adepts. But their role is not to change their opinions to please people or to get more adept.

is their role to sell vatican xmas albums? :devil:

propi
Oct 10th, 2003, 12:40 AM
Shh :tape: you never know who might be listening :o
Then I'm in real danger :eek: :tape:

alexusjonesfan
Oct 10th, 2003, 12:47 AM
Then I'm in real danger :eek: :tape:

You've uttered heresy in the bastion of Catholicism! :eek: Move to Calfornia before one of the Cardinals gets you :cool:

*JR*
Oct 10th, 2003, 04:10 PM
(As usual), the Catholic Church selectively uses partial and misleading spin. Meaning that the viral particles need a "carrier" (in this case semen, which only exists because sperm also does). So the Church is still trying to fuck the truth, I guess. :o

Ballbuster
Oct 10th, 2003, 04:18 PM
They so damn backwards it isn't even funny. They have an entire flock of priest whip off the face of the earth and they still refuse to see the truth for what it is.

I guess they will pray the plague away. Condoms saves lives, get with the program.

gentenaire
Oct 10th, 2003, 04:59 PM
I guess he does.. If US had had quality condoms, he probably wouldn't have been born at all. I am sure his birth was not an intention at the time.

But but but that would mean they had sex for another reason...I can't think of another reason, to be honest ;) It's a SIN!

Ballbuster
Oct 10th, 2003, 05:01 PM
But but but that would mean they had sex for another reason...I can't think of another reason, to be honest ;) It's a SIN!


I have sex because it FEELS GOOD, with people of my choosing. When was the last time you was laid?

gentenaire
Oct 10th, 2003, 05:17 PM
I have sex because it FEELS GOOD, with people of my choosing. When was the last time you was laid?

When was the last time you didn't make a fool of yourself?

Kart
Oct 10th, 2003, 06:38 PM
Condoms saves lives, get with the program.

I'm stunned to find myself agreeing with you :tape:.

Couver
Oct 10th, 2003, 06:51 PM
You know even though I'm catholic, articles like this always make me aware of the TERRIBLE flaws in organized religion.

It's so utterly foolish and harmful to spread this kind of message. Do they think less people will have sex because of this? No they'll still have sex and now it will be unprotected.

I'd love to see the research the Vatican has done to come to this conclusion. :rolleyes:

mexicotrip
Oct 10th, 2003, 07:17 PM
-The Catholic Church has many very educated (priestly) scientists and scholars among its ranks. The statement was simply a mistake made by one member of the church (who is not a scientist) and is not a view supported by The Vatican. (It may have been taken out of context also)

-Catholics believe that morality is not RELATIVE. In other words, if something was wrong 100 years ago, it is not right NOW because society has accepted it. There is also a natural moral code that sets the foundation for all Morality. Homosexuality is not a matter of equality, it is a matter of breaking a law of nature (much like incest). For this reason, the Catholic church feels that homosexuals should be treated with respect, but are called to live a life of chastity. If you don't like it, no one is holding a knife to your throat. Catholics believe that humans have free will and therefore can chose to be a member of a particular faith or not.

-Pope John Paul II is one of the greatest spiritual figures of our time. He was a leading scholar before he became pope and still has a very sharp mind. He is waiting for GOD to decide when is the proper time for him to stop leading the church. Clearly, God feels he is till very capable of leading his church. He has dedicated his life to youth and social justice. He deserves much more respect than what this board is giving him.

-It would take years of study to truely understand what a solid Theolgical base the church is standing on. It is only those that do not know the nature of the church that come out this idiot statements like those in this thread. If you think sex feels good and thats why you do it, good. Noone is forcing you to be a Catholic. But if you feel that sexual intercourse is a sacred union between a married man and a married woman, that open themselves up to each other, God and NEW LIFE, then you can call yourself Catholic.

Ballbuster
Oct 10th, 2003, 07:37 PM
Admit it. You love black men.


I'm stunned to find myself agreeing with you :tape:.

Ballbuster
Oct 10th, 2003, 07:40 PM
When was the last time you didn't make a fool of yourself?


You keep it up.....and you will really be Begging for some action. You better get it while you can sweetie. I seen your photos, you will get fat and uglier sooner than you know.

Then whose going to want it. You will start posting like ys.

alexusjonesfan
Oct 10th, 2003, 08:41 PM
If we could hold the church bashing for a sec...
so is there then irrefutable evidence that condoms don't stop the spread of AIDS? because what would the implications of such news be to the gay community? So people with AIDS can no longer have sex at all and the rest don't need to use condoms ever? This would be shocking news I'm sure :eek:

Rocketta
Oct 10th, 2003, 08:44 PM
mexicotrip----You know everything you typed still doesn't change the fact that the Catholic Church preaches one thing and its members in more industrial areas live life by today's standards and its members in the less industrial areas follow the church more to the traditional standards. Teaching the Rythym method in a 3 rd world country is abuse if you ask me. Those people are poor and can't afford to feed themselves but if they practice any form of contraception their church tells them they are going to hell. So its lots of kids and even more cripling poverty. Now on top of that the church is expousing a position that is could possibly get its parishoners a deadly illness. Factor in the fact that medication supplies for this illness are not in heavy supply in those countries and once again I personally see abuse.

I'm just one of those people who feel like that is not a "loving" message.

These are serious questions I have for anyone willing to answer:

How can anyone be sure Jesus is against "Condoms" when latex "Condoms" didn't exist? Also, "What Scripture is the church basing the notion that contraception between married people is wrong on? Thirdly,"Isn't the Rythm methord a form of Contraception?". If So, "How is it different from using a Condom?"

I always wondered those things. If anyone could answer please.

Rocketta
Oct 10th, 2003, 08:47 PM
If we could hold the church bashing for a sec...
so is there then irrefutable evidence that condoms don't stop the spread of AIDS? because what would the implications of such news be to the gay community? So people with AIDS can no longer have sex at all and the rest don't need to use condoms ever? This would be shocking news I'm sure :eek:

I'll submit Cookie Johnson's(magic Johnson's wife) name as proof Condoms work to prevent the spreading of AIDS. Now if a condom breaks it doesn't prevent anything. Its like not having it on at all.

alexusjonesfan
Oct 10th, 2003, 08:49 PM
I'll submit Cookie Johnson's(magic Johnson's wife) name as proof Condoms work to prevent the spreading of AIDS. Now if a condom breaks it doesn't prevent anything. Its like not having it on at all.

yeah that's what I was thinking too and the statistics seem to indicate that increased condom use has lead to a reduction in AIDS in the gay community...so how does this news fit in? :confused:

Rocketta
Oct 10th, 2003, 08:54 PM
yeah that's what I was thinking too and the statistics seem to indicate that increased condom use has lead to a reduction in AIDS in the gay community...so how does this news fit in? :confused:

I think because the church had no response to its parishoners deciding that using "condoms" was in their best safety interest against diseases they decided to say it doesn't prevent the disease it only spreads it. Sounds like scare tactics to me. :sad:

Ballbuster
Oct 10th, 2003, 09:01 PM
yeah that's what I was thinking too and the statistics seem to indicate that increased condom use has lead to a reduction in AIDS in the gay community...so how does this news fit in? :confused:

Because the Priest have been fucking little boys for centuries. At least they could use a condom. Some of these kids are getting infected by these priest and don't know it.

got it.

Kart
Oct 10th, 2003, 09:11 PM
Admit it. You love black men.

Don't get your hopes up.

*JR*
Oct 10th, 2003, 10:03 PM
It's all because a certain poster got them hooked on hip hop! :p

Couver
Oct 10th, 2003, 11:54 PM
So if the Vatican has it's own experts....

When academics publish scientific findings they back it up. If the Vatican has their own experts their experts need to tell us how they came to these conclusions, and show us the methods they used. Otherwise it's just baseless propaganda from an organization, trying to back up their beliefs without any fact.

mexicotrip
Oct 11th, 2003, 03:05 AM
I was not saying that the church did any research in the condom matter (like I said...I was prob. taken out of context...or was a simple mistake by a member).


to answer your question...
How can anyone be sure Jesus is against "Condoms" when latex "Condoms" didn't exist? Also, "What Scripture is the church basing the notion that contraception between married people is wrong on? Thirdly,"Isn't the Rythm methord a form of Contraception?". If So, "How is it different from using a Condom?"

-Catholics believe that sexual intercourse is more than just about the act, its also about giving life to another person. Not using a condom (but practicing the cycle method) still opens up the person for at least the possibility of creating new life. So you are not telling God how many kids you want...God is telling you.

If everyone listened to the church there would be no AIDS.

-And lets not bring in the Clergy abuses...people are sinful...no church official has ever said they are without sin. They, just like all of us are weak. Some use the church for evil deeds. The Church's theology is grounded on a moral code that respects all people.

mexicotrip
Oct 11th, 2003, 03:06 AM
oh...and if you want more answers (for personal interest) you can go to

www.catholic.org and click of forum (top of page)...It is full of amazing, educated persons.

gentenaire
Oct 11th, 2003, 07:44 AM
-Catholics believe that sexual intercourse is more than just about the act, its also about giving life to another person. Not using a condom (but practicing the cycle method) still opens up the person for at least the possibility of creating new life. So you are not telling God how many kids you want...God is telling you.

If everyone listened to the church there would be no AIDS.

Oh really?

I think you seriously underestimate the spread of the disease in Africa, a continent where the people listen to the church a lot more! It's not a coincidence that in the poorest continent in the world, where the people have little access to unbiased information, where they're still very traditional, that that's where AIDS is the biggest problem. If everyone listened to the church, AIDS would be as widespread in the other continents as it is in Africa.

Rothes
Oct 11th, 2003, 08:50 AM
Condoms don't stop aids, as like any contraception, there not miracle marvels, there there to help the prevention of contracting a Disease of somesort.

The Vatican in some areas seems to be living in the past now. People are not as conservative as they used to be, now we go on one night stands, Gangbangs, Casual Sex, Orgies, Analsex. The chance of contracting a STD is always a risk, even with or without contraception.

It almost feels like that the Vatican would not have to speak of this message if we were all still ultra-religious, as we would all be still having Sex After Marriage and not condemning the bible of illegal Acts, however we don't and we continually practice sex whenever someone feels like it and express it in anyway they feel, and if the Vatican wished to change that, they would have to genocide most of the Human Race, Which is impossible.

Epidemics in Africa and Asia are widespread of Aids, and some of the most religious people live there. Though most of these places such as Vietnam, Botswana, Burundi have virtually no way of finding contraception, let alone don't have the vauguest clue of what aids is.

Basicially contraception in our society is the way to go now.

mexicotrip
Oct 11th, 2003, 04:43 PM
Oh really?

I think you seriously underestimate the spread of the disease in Africa, a continent where the people listen to the church a lot more! It's not a coincidence that in the poorest continent in the world, where the people have little access to unbiased information, where they're still very traditional, that that's where AIDS is the biggest problem. If everyone listened to the church, AIDS would be as widespread in the other continents as it is in Africa.

I am sorry to telly you, but, Africa is not a major Catholic nation by any means. In Botswana for example, 85% practice indigenous beliefs.
Think about it, IF one did not have sex before marriage and then afterwards had sex with only one person, How do you think AIDS would spread? AIDS spreads becasue people have sex with (was it 1,000+ woman) for Magic Johnson?

If they were listening to the church "a lot more" there would be no AIDS in Africa. There would be no AIDS.

alexusjonesfan
Oct 11th, 2003, 04:53 PM
I disagree with some of your points Mexicotrip but I'd like to thank you for bringing a different perspective to the thread. It's always good to hear from a different point of view preventing the discussion from becoming a bash-the-bad-guys-fest, especially if that point of view isn't presented hatefully and condescendingly. Keep it up :yeah:

gentenaire
Oct 11th, 2003, 06:20 PM
I am sorry to telly you, but, Africa is not a major Catholic nation by any means. In Botswana for example, 85% practice indigenous beliefs.
Think about it, IF one did not have sex before marriage and then afterwards had sex with only one person, How do you think AIDS would spread? AIDS spreads becasue people have sex with (was it 1,000+ woman) for Magic Johnson?

If they were listening to the church "a lot more" there would be no AIDS in Africa. There would be no AIDS.

Babies are born with AIDS! Sexual intercourse isn't the only way you can get AIDS, you know.

Rocketta
Oct 11th, 2003, 06:28 PM
I am sorry to telly you, but, Africa is not a major Catholic nation by any means. In Botswana for example, 85% practice indigenous beliefs.
Think about it, IF one did not have sex before marriage and then afterwards had sex with only one person, How do you think AIDS would spread? AIDS spreads becasue people have sex with (was it 1,000+ woman) for Magic Johnson?

If they were listening to the church "a lot more" there would be no AIDS in Africa. There would be no AIDS.

AIDS absolutely is not spread by people having sex with up to 1,000 different people. First I never heard Magic say he slept with 1000+ women, maybe he did but I don't remember it. However, Wilt Chamberlain claims to have slept with 10,000 I think women and he didn't get it. Numbers mean zero. It only takes one person sleeping with one person to pass the disease. Lets say someone has the disease sleeps with his wife. The person got the disease from tainted blood or a tainted needle or whatever. They pass it on to their wife having never shown a sympton. They die. The wife remarries and passes it on to her husband. They divorce while still in the dormant stage. Both remarry. The woman and her ex's new wife both get pregnant and have two babies born HIV positive. That's six people who are positive living right and not sleeping around. The disease started somewhere and it had nothing to do with sex outside of marriage because the first person had to get the disease somehow? So to think that somehow Sex outside of marriage or only inside the marriage is the cause or the cure is incorrect imho.

Do you know the community that has one of the highest rates of infection? You got it Catholic Priests.

Concern Grows Over AIDS Rate Among Priests
Kansas City Star (www.kcstar.com)
11/05/00; P. A1; Thomas, Judy L.

The growing number of priests who have died from AIDS has been documented by the Kansas City Star, based on estimates from experts and priests. The Star has identified over 300 AIDS-related deaths among priests nationwide, using death certificates and interviews with family members and colleagues; however, the actual number is unknown. According to the Star, the AIDS death rate among priests in 14 states is more than two times that of adult males in those states. AIDS expert Richard Selik of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention stated that data shows the HIV death rate is higher in priests than in men 25 years of age and over. Rev. Jim Walsh of the National Catholic Educational Association said he was surprised by the data, which he said reflect a "need to talk about celibacy and to do it in the sense of people witnessing how they're living it and where it's not working for them." The Star's state-by-state examination of the problem shows that hundreds of priests have died from AIDS, including a rector, seminary vocation directors, and college chaplains. However, there are signs of growing concern about sex and AIDS in the church. The National Federation of Priests' Councils is creating a new document concerning how dioceses should respond to priests with AIDS, and a study endorsed by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops will examine problems faced priests in their first five years after ordination. According to Brother Bernard Stratman, director of the federation, more priests are needing treatment for chemical, alcohol abuse, personality problems, and sexuality dysfunctions. Earlier this year, the Church of England acknowledged that 25 of its priests had died from AIDS-related causes. More recently, spurred by the enormity of the AIDS epidemic in southern Africa, the church said that all Anglican bishops in the region would be tested for HIV.

Even priests aren't buying into the Church's doctrine on Sex and I suspect they never really had. ....

Here's another article on it.

http://www.libchrist.com/other/homosexual/catholicpriestsAIDS.html

Catholic priest's AIDs rate soars

Highlight of March 2000 article by Judy L. Thomas, Knight Ridder Newspapers published in The Arizona Republic

Some blame lack of training by the church.

Hundreds of Roman Catholic priests across the U.S. are dying from AIDs or living with HIV.

It appears priests are dying of AIDS at a rate at least four times that of the general U.S. population.

The deaths are of such concern to the church that most dioceses and religious orders now require applicants for the priesthood to take an HIV-antibody test before their ordination.

In a survey of 3000 priests, most said the church failed to offer an early and effective sexual education that might have prevented infection in the first place. Three of four said the church needed to offer more education about sexual issues.

Many priests and behavioral experts argue that the church’s adherence to 12th-century doctrine about the virtues of celibacy and its teachings on homosexuality have contributed to the spread of AIDS within the clergy. The church has kept priests uneducated about the reality of a sexual world.

Moreover, by treating homosexual acts as an abomination and the breaking of celibacy vows as shameful, the church has scared priests into silence.

Through the years, the issue of AIDS deaths among priests has been so sensitive that many kept their illnesses a secret.

To the surprise of researchers 801 priests responded to a survey of AIDS – a response rate of 27%. Nearly 60% said they personally knew at last one priest who had died of AIDS. And one in three said they knew priests who were living with HIV or AIDS.

The Rev. Tom Casey, an Augustinian priest from the Boston area, said the church bears some of the blame for AIDS deaths. “They have created a tremendous amount of homophobia,” Casey said.

“Gays are in the priesthood, and not all of them are celibate. Both of these issues are explosive that superiors and bishops don’t want to deal with publicly”, said Robert Goss, a former Jesuit priest.

Experts say the incidence of AIDS among priest’s stems primarily from sexual contact.

As long ago as the early 1980’s, the Rev John Keenan found that Catholic priests were contracting AIDS at an alarming rate.

“We looked at what was happening in the gay Catholic population, and there was a lot of concern about the epidemic proportions of HIV”, said Keenan, who runs an outpatient clinic in Chicago for priests.

Keenan now runs weekly support sessions for infected priests. He believes most priests with AIDS contracted the disease through same-sex relations. He said he treated one priest who had infected eight other priests.

Charlie Isola, a New York City social worker and psychotherapist, said all the priests that had AIDS that he has treated are gay men in their 40s to early 60s who became infected through same-sex relations.

But the church tries to argue they could have been infected before they became priests. Some argue that failing to address the issue how the priests were infected shows that the church is in denial about the issue…the church just doesn’t want to admit it.

This excerpt, with full credit, is being shared under the Fair Use provision of the U.S. Copyright laws and International treaties for educational purposes and for no financial gain.

Don't you think its time to stop looking at the people as being failures and start looking at the church? Maybe they are not providing the type of guidance needed in these troubled times? You say its not for the church to change their doctrine but if they are losing people to illness, death and disenfranchisement how could there be a church without any followers?

decemberlove
Oct 11th, 2003, 10:27 PM
I am sorry to telly you, but, Africa is not a major Catholic nation by any means. In Botswana for example, 85% practice indigenous beliefs.
Think about it, IF one did not have sex before marriage and then afterwards had sex with only one person, How do you think AIDS would spread? AIDS spreads becasue people have sex with (was it 1,000+ woman) for Magic Johnson?

If they were listening to the church "a lot more" there would be no AIDS in Africa. There would be no AIDS.

when aids first arrived, a good number of people caught it from blood transfusions. it wasnt just from having sex with thousands of people.

i knew a woman who only had sex with two people in her life, her long term 7 year boyfriend and later her husband. her husband slept around on her, got aids, passed it to her, and now shes dead.

also, have you ever thought of the number of women raped in africa? and please dont bring some bullshit about if they practiced catholicism then rape wouldnt happen, cos we ALL know about priests and their lil fetish for raping young children.

decemberlove
Oct 11th, 2003, 10:32 PM
condoms are NOT 100% safe and the manufacturers nor the doctors have ever claimed them to be. however, they do significantly reduce the spread of STDs and unwanted pregnancies.

alexusjonesfan
Oct 11th, 2003, 10:39 PM
Actually, the largest cause of AIDS in Africa has to do with AIDS infected mothers having children as well as the spread through shared needles and blood transfusions. Some countries have as much as 25% of their population afflicted with AIDS. Yet, many Western corporations are unwilling to allow African nations to mass-produce AIDS medications at lower prices to make them more accessible for their population. Who cares about people's lives when you have too look at your bottom line and the integrity of your patents :D

decemberlove
Oct 11th, 2003, 10:44 PM
are you talking to me?
i dont remember saying anything about the largest cause of aids. i am just throwing different angles at mexicotrip. :)

also, my first sentence was referring to aids in america not africa. basically i was saying that sex with thousands isnt the only reason for aids.

the cure for aids is out there, but there is too much money in the treatment and medications... now you can live a fairly long life if kept on the meds they give you. its all about the money.

mexicotrip
Oct 11th, 2003, 10:44 PM
So some priests have AIDS, this does not mean that they do not 'buy' into the church's teachings, it means that Catholicism is very demanding of its members. And that all persons are weak. And once again, morality is not RELATIVE, just because immorality has grown does not make it right in God's eyes.

---Of course you can get AIDS by sleeping with one person who has AIDS (and not 1,000 (like I said for effect)) But of course the more you sleep around, the greater your chances of contracting the illness.

---Many more people have gotten AIDS from sex than by any other means.


*I found it shocking how many non-catholics (or ex-catholics) continue to attack the church on issues of morality. Considering that throughout history the church has done so much for equality and human rights (outside of a couple bad-apples).

The name Mother Theresa comes to mind
also, Saint Max Kolbe as well as Liberation Theology and Solidarnosc

mexicotrip
Oct 11th, 2003, 10:49 PM
Saying that if everyone respected the dignity of each other, and not raped, is not BS and what? :eek: ----Happens to be a teaching of the church!

*Please don't speak of bad priests and how many sins they have commited. Many very evil men have used the church as a means to their sick acts. These people are not real Catholics, or real priests.

alexusjonesfan
Oct 11th, 2003, 10:51 PM
are you talking to me?
i dont remember saying anything about the largest cause of aids. i am just throwing different angles at mexicotrip. :)

also, my first sentence was referring to aids in america not africa. basically i was saying that sex with thousands isnt the only reason for aids.

the cure for aids is out there, but there is too much money in the treatment and medications... now you can live a fairly long life if kept on the meds they give you. its all about the money.

sorry, dl, I was just putting some of the stuff I know on the table. It wasn't pointed at anyone. Hope I didn't offend :D

Rocketta
Oct 12th, 2003, 04:53 PM
So some priests have AIDS, this does not mean that they do not 'buy' into the church's teachings, it means that Catholicism is very demanding of its members. And that all persons are weak. And once again, morality is not RELATIVE, just because immorality has grown does not make it right in God's eyes.

please don't give me this it was just these men and it had nothing to do with the church. Isn't it the Church who was moving rapists around knowing full well they were hurting children? It is also the church who knows these priests are infected and they are letting them spread it and die because the church doesn't want to look like it is not perfect. That is vanity and I think its a sin. Now the church is taking millions of dollars of money donated by parishoners to do good deeds and paying out settlements because of their active involvement in the abuse of their young patrons.

I have a problem with the church's lack of willingness to look at itself and its policies that help cause some of these issues. The theory that its them not us doesn't cut it, imo.


*I found it shocking how many non-catholics (or ex-catholics) continue to attack the church on issues of morality. Considering that throughout history the church has done so much for equality and human rights (outside of a couple bad-apples).


The name Mother Theresa comes to mind
also, Saint Max Kolbe as well as Liberation Theology and Solidarnosc

how come when people of the church do well its because of the church but when they do bad its because of them and not the church. Maybe these two people did good deeds cause they were good people and not catholics. Just using your logic.

mexicotrip
Oct 12th, 2003, 06:42 PM
Maybe because they placed the church at the center of their lives and openly said that THE CHURCH was at the heart all their good deeds?

Rocketta
Oct 12th, 2003, 07:17 PM
Maybe because they placed the church at the center of their lives and openly said that THE CHURCH was at the heart all their good deeds?

The church probably was at the center of the good deeds. Just like they are at the center of some bad deeds.

*JR*
Oct 12th, 2003, 07:44 PM
-Pope John Paul II is one of the greatest spiritual figures of our time. He was a leading scholar before he became pope and still has a very sharp mind. He is waiting for GOD to decide when is the proper time for him to stop leading the church. Clearly, God feels he is till very capable of leading his church. He has dedicated his life to youth and social justice. He deserves much more respect than what this board is giving him. The Pope is undoubtedly one who's had great influence on the world, esp. in the collapse of the Soviet Bloc. Does that mean he did it based on a faith that's THE truth? We don't have the ability to know that about ANY religion (including the "virtual religion" of atheism). Sorry, but taking something purely on faith, however strong, does NOT make it a fact.

-It would take years of study to truely understand what a solid Theolgical base the church is standing on. It is only those that do not know the nature of the church that come out this idiot statements like those in this thread. If you think sex feels good and thats why you do it, good. Noone is forcing you to be a Catholic. But if you feel that sexual intercourse is a sacred union between a married man and a married woman, that open themselves up to each other, God and NEW LIFE, then you can call yourself Catholic. Re. the "years of study...." requirement, OK. However, by definition a Theological (or "anti-Theological") base is like a clinical trial in medicine where THE OUTCOME IS DETERMINED IN ADVANCE. Sorry, that's why theology (as run by religions) themselves is NOT true academic inquiry, however many degrees the professors may have.