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View Full Version : Why Kim can't win (and other tales)


Volcana
Oct 7th, 2003, 12:55 PM
The title isn't really appropriate. You CANNOT get to #1 without being able to win. But it comes close to rhyming, and our cat has disapppeared, so f*ck with me over that and I'll get nasty.

I'm minded to compare Capriati and Clijsters against Williams (2x) and JH2.

Capriati and Clijsters are both 'low risk' offense players.

They hit HARD, but they don't go for the lines. They depend on returning everything, and giving the opponent moderately difficult (as in, 95% of the tour can't return them) balls to hit. They both can hit winners, but those winners usually go to an open court off a weak return. The only thing they do that puts pressure on the opponent is hit with pace. That's great against 99% of the tour. Against Venus or Serena it isn't enough, and it usually isn't enough vs Justine.

Williams (2x) and JH2, OTHO, are 'high-risk' offense players.

They hit hard, AND they go for the lines. This means more UEs, but it puts the opponent under an ENORMOUS amount of pressure. It's not just that any weak shot comes back as a winner. Any shot that isn't above average comes back as a winner. Sometimes it takes a shot longer in Justine's case, mostly because of the length of her stroke, but the result is the same.

When Venus or Serena or Justine plays Jenn or Kim, V-S-J gets to set up for almost every shot. K-J usually hits three or four feet from the sidelines. Combine that with the fastest players on the tour chasing, and not many balls get by.

K-J, OTOH, despite their incredible defense, DO lose points for not being fast enough. Because their shots are further form the sideline and baseline, giving V-S-J sharper angles to hit, and EASIER shots to hit.

The advantage for K-J used to be more UEs by the V-S-J crew (Players with more high-risk offense). Those players are gaining more control and making smarter choices. That means less UEs, which takes away the advantage the low-risk offense players had.

Which is one reason the 'high-risk' players have won the last 7 GS titles in a row, and 9 of the last 10.

DA FOREHAND
Oct 7th, 2003, 01:08 PM
ok

gentenaire
Oct 7th, 2003, 01:08 PM
Actually, I've always considered the risk game to be typical for Kim. That's why she always has so many UEs.

servenrichie
Oct 7th, 2003, 01:19 PM
Please delay putting Henin in that group until everyone is healthy. Thank you!

Volcana
Oct 7th, 2003, 01:41 PM
Actually, I've always considered the risk game to be typical for Kim. That's why she always has so many UEs.

Actually, she doesn't usually have a lot of UEs. On TELEVISION we see her with a lot of errors, but that's because on TV we only see Kim vs elite competition. There aren't many UEs against non-Top Eight opponents.

Please delay putting Henin in that group until everyone is healthy. Thank you!

Why? There are no health issues on the tour currently affecting anyone's STYLE of play.

gentenaire
Oct 7th, 2003, 01:44 PM
I'm afraid I have to disagree. Kim's a typical baseline player, she goes for the lines and sometimes, she has those matches where lots and lots of her balls are just out. She also gets matches where the balls are just in.

I do think she's changed her game a bit. She used to hit a lot more double faults and more aces. She's taking less risks on her second serve now.

DA FOREHAND
Oct 7th, 2003, 01:46 PM
Kim reg. slaughters girls ranked outside the top eight, and seems to have a crisis of confidence against the bigguns.

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 01:49 PM
Kim reg. slaughters girls ranked outside the top eight, and seems to have a crisis of confidence against the bigguns.

Everybody creams the girls outside the top 8! That isnīt the point, itīs the top 4 against whom Kim has to start playing and showing some balls!

Volcana
Oct 7th, 2003, 01:50 PM
I'm afraid I have to disagree. Kim's a typical baseline player, she goes for the lines and sometimes, she has those matches where lots and lots of her balls are

Indeed, we do disagree. I would suggest watching Kim when she's NOT playing Venus, Serena or Justine. She doesn't make a lot of baseline errors in those matches. Those errors you see from Kim vs the elite are caused by Kim's not being able to win with defense and opportunism.

When Kim HAS to hit winners from the baseline to win, she tends to make a lot of errors. But her winning options rarely come to that.

Kim reg. slaughters girls ranked outside the top eight, and seems to have a crisis of confidence against the bigguns.

I don't think it's confidence. Remember Ivan Lendl? A machine of a player, ranked #1 four years running, could NOT win Wimbledon. The rap on Lendl was he 'couldn't raise the level of his game'. Most of the time, the 'level of his game' was higher than everyone elses. But when he faced a player like Boris Becker, who could raise his game to stratospheric heights for 8 or 9 games in row, Lendl was in trouble. His game was what it was, and if you could find a way to raise the quality of your play above his, he had no answer.

To me, that Kim now. Better than virtually any opponent's NORMAL game, but an elite opponent bringing their 'A' game is too much for her. The OZ semi was vintage. Kim was totally dominant, but then Serena went off. And Kim kept playing at the same level. Serena never came back to earth. Game, set, match.

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 01:57 PM
Indeed, we do disagree. I would suggest watching Kim when she's NOT playing Venus, Serena or Justine. She doesn't make a lot of baseline errors in those matches. Those errors you see from Kim vs the elite are caused by Kim's not being able to win with defense and opportunism.

When Kim HAS to hit winners from the baseline to win, she tends to make a lot of errors. But her winning options rarely come to that.

Exactly! Prime example is the oz semi against Serena. When Serena was down 1-5 in that third set, she suddenly started to play everything down the middle ,not going for any lines....thus in fact putting the pressure on Kim to go for her own winnners, instead of relying on Serena making the errors.....voila, she couldnīt do it! When Kim has to make the match, she CANīT win.

gentenaire
Oct 7th, 2003, 01:58 PM
Indeed, we do disagree. I would suggest watching Kim when she's NOT playing Venus, Serena or Justine. She doesn't make a lot of baseline errors in those matches.

Because she doesn't have to take as many risks against those players. She can play it safe then. It's against the top players that Kim is risking more. So I do think we can call Kim's game risk tennis.

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:00 PM
Because she doesn't have to take as many risks against those players. She can play it safe then. It's against the top players that Kim is risking more. So I do think we can call Kim's game risk tennis.

It isnīt risk by nature. She is FORCED to be risky, because the other players arenīt being overpowered and have great defense too!

Volcana
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:02 PM
So I do think we can call Kim's game risk tennis.

I did. LOW risk tennis.

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:04 PM
I did. LOW risk tennis.

:lol: ;)

Volcana
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:05 PM
If your game beats 99% of the tour, do you change it to beat the other 1%? I dunno.

But, Kim DID get to #1 with this game. She's only 20. In her position I suspect I'd think things were fine.

arn
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:07 PM
It isnīt risk by nature. She is FORCED to be risky, because the other players arenīt being overpowered and have great defense too!

I do not agree here. See Kim play at the age of 16-17 and she plays VERY risky tennis. So it certainly is risk by nature. She has come back from playing risky and know plays a game somewhere between risky and defensive depending on the situation. IMO It's because she has come back from it a bit, she is the #1 know. But I rather see her play more risky tennis more often.

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:07 PM
If your game beats 99% of the tour, do you change it to beat the other 1%? I dunno.

But, Kim DID get to #1 with this game. She's only 20. In her position I suspect I'd think things were fine.

Well, the thing is that is THAT 1 % that is winning the slams....so who cares if you beat 99 % of the tour?! Itīs the ones that are winning the slams, you should be beating.

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:11 PM
I do not agree here. See Kim play at the age of 16-17 and she plays VERY risky tennis. So it certainly is risk by nature. She has come back from playing risky and know plays a game somewhere between risky and defensive depending on the situation. IMO It's because she has come back from it a bit, she is the #1 know. But I rather see her play more risky tennis more often.

That she became no.1 doesnīt say much. with this system it is easy to become no.1, without being the best.

Funny how back then at least she was putting a FIGHT when she reached her first slam final. Now?! Getting BAGELED and stuff by JUSTINE of all people! If youīre getting bageled by Justine, well then something must be really bad with your game.

arn
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:16 PM
.

But, Kim DID get to #1 with this game. She's only 20. In her position I suspect I'd think things were fine.

Yeah, I agree totally. She should not play differently as she does now to beat everybody outside the top-4. But does she have the time to practise more to beat the elite on a more consistent basis AND maintain the way she plays know to beat the rest?

servenrichie
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:19 PM
Yeah, I agree totally. She should not play differently as she does now to beat everybody outside the top-4. But does she have the time to practise more to beat the elite on a more consistent basis AND maintain the way she plays know to beat the rest?

She can change her game with the risk of loosing once in a while to nobodies like others do, but then she will be ready to compete at the highest level and take her chances, instead of crumbling down when "push comes down to shove"

arn
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:22 PM
That she became no.1 doesnīt say much. with this system it is easy to become no.1, without being the best.

Funny how back then at least she was putting a FIGHT when she reached her first slam final. Now?! Getting BAGELED and stuff by JUSTINE of all people! If youīre getting bageled by Justine, well then something must be really bad with your game.

It's so easy to become #1 in this system that Kim was only the 12th player to do so in the open era. It DOES say anything. It says Kim is the fittest player out there who can maintain high level of tennis during lots of tournaments (without being injured)

The bageling by Justine is more a mental problem, also an important part of the game ofcourse. And of all people Justine will be the one who will take over the #1 spot, rightfully so.

But those are 2 other discussions :)

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:24 PM
Yeah, I agree totally. She should not play differently as she does now to beat everybody outside the top-4. But does she have the time to practise more to beat the elite on a more consistent basis AND maintain the way she plays know to beat the rest?

Nobody cares if you double bagel Rossana de los Rios...everybody knows she wasnīt gonna win anyways! Itīs Kimīs play against Venus, Serena, Justine.....that is the play that people will remember. So far, it ainīt been pretty!

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:28 PM
It's so easy to become #1 in this system that Kim was only the 12th player to do so in the open era. It DOES say anything. It says Kim is the fittest player out there who can maintain high level of tennis during lots of tournaments (without being injured)

The bageling by Justine is more a mental problem, also an important part of the game ofcourse. And of all people Justine will be the one who will take over the #1 spot, rightfully so.

But those are 2 other discussions :)

Sure, sure.....Kimīs a fine player, winning her tier IIīs and the odd tier I, semiīs and finalist points do add up.

Justine is a good player and will indeed become the rightful no.1, but NO WAY should a player of Kimīs status, caliber and ranking lose a set at love to Justine! It ainīt like Kim is a qualifier or something! We are talking about the NO.2 player at the time!! Can you imagine Serena bageling no.2 Venus?!

DA FOREHAND
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:31 PM
Monica bagelled Steffi at the 95 US Open
Monica bagelled ASV at the 98 French

arn
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:31 PM
She can change her game with the risk of loosing once in a while to nobodies like others do, but then she will be ready to compete at the highest level and take her chances, instead of crumbling down when "push comes down to shove"

I agree, but that's a difficult (especially mentally because you will lose matches against players you would normally beat easily).

The best would be a solution in the middle probably. Cutting back on tournaments to practise more, but keep playing the way she does against lower-ranked players. According to the latest news Kim would play only 15 tournaments next year...

arn
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:34 PM
Sure, sure.....Kimīs a fine player, winning her tier IIīs and the odd tier I, semiīs and finalist points do add up.

Justine is a good player and will indeed become the rightful no.1, but NO WAY should a player of Kimīs status, caliber and ranking lose a set at love to Justine! It ainīt like Kim is a qualifier or something! We are talking about the NO.2 player at the time!! Can you imagine Serena bageling no.2 Venus?!

Great we agree :) Everything is possible in tennis, especially when the mental part becomes far more important as the pure tennis part.

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:34 PM
Monica bagelled Steffi at the 95 US Open
Monica bagelled ASV at the 98 French

Yeah, but both times Monica was ranked higher,no?!

tennnisfannn
Oct 7th, 2003, 02:54 PM
Monica bagelled Steffi at the 95 US Open
Monica bagelled ASV at the 98 French
Monica was once double bagelled by hingis.
That aside, Lindsay too has one of the most offensive game on the tour, yet Kim seems to be able to handle her really well. I know Lindsay isn't as quick around the court as the WS and Justine but she also doesn't make as many ues as the sisters do (except of course at the USO). If Kim can handle her she should be able to deal with the agrressiveness of V, S &J. She too has the speed and power to go toe to toe.

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:02 PM
Monica was once double bagelled by hingis.
That aside, Lindsay too has one of the most offensive game on the tour, yet Kim seems to be able to handle her really well. I know Lindsay isn't as quick around the court as the WS and Justine but she also doesn't make as many ues as the sisters do (except of course at the USO). If Kim can handle her she should be able to deal with the agrressiveness of V, S &J. She too has the speed and power to go toe to toe.

You answered your own question. Lindsay doesnīt have the speed, so Kim has only to make sure to withstand Lindsayīs barrage and then move her a bit around.

Against the sisters and Justine that doesnīt work. They have power AND speed, so Kim must be able to hit some shots too. It ainīt like with Lindsay, where one shot is enough to win the point....against the sisters and Justine Kim too has to hit more shots before she wins a point. And that is against Kimīs nature.

servenrichie
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:05 PM
Monica was once double bagelled by hingis.
That aside, Lindsay too has one of the most offensive game on the tour, yet Kim seems to be able to handle her really well. I know Lindsay isn't as quick around the court as the WS and Justine but she also doesn't make as many ues as the sisters do (except of course at the USO). If Kim can handle her she should be able to deal with the agrressiveness of V, S &J. She too has the speed and power to go toe to toe.

Wrong. Kim just figured out how to play Lindsay, just like it took Venus ages to figure it out. Move her around and she will hit the errors for you with pleasure. Lindsay is neither on the list of those mentioned nor is she the fatest out there. Moving is easier said than done, because you have to posses the weapons to move Lindsay. Kim has it, but that is not the issue here.

gentenaire
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:15 PM
You answered your own question. Lindsay doesnīt have the speed, so Kim has only to make sure to withstand Lindsayīs barrage and then move her a bit around.

How do you move a player around? By going for angles, going for the lines. You claim Kim plays only to the middle, that's not a tactic that works against Lindsay.

gentenaire
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:19 PM
Against the sisters and Justine that doesnīt work. They have power AND speed, so Kim must be able to hit some shots too. It ainīt like with Lindsay, where one shot is enough to win the point....against the sisters and Justine Kim too has to hit more shots before she wins a point. And that is against Kimīs nature.

That's true. Kim likes to finish the points quickly. I still think she plays high risk tennis, she takes much more risks than Justine. Just compare my shape of the head after watching Kim matches compared to watching matches of Justine. When Kim plays, I have to bang my head against whatever I find repeatedly, when she again plays a drop shot at a bad moment (fortunately she's doing that less and less), hits the ball out, goes for it too much, etc.

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:22 PM
How do you move a player around? By going for angles, going for the lines. You claim Kim plays only to the middle, that's not a tactic that works against Lindsay.

We are talking against the top 4 here! With all respect to Lindsay, her timeīs gone. Against Lindsay, Kim doesnīt do anything other than defend...but because she has a good defense, she can hit a ball that Lindsay has to stretch for and we all know with Lindsay if she has to stretch....sheīs done.

But against Serena, Venus and Justine that doesnīt cut it. They all can play defense as good if not better than Kim and are more agressive....so Kim canīt just rely on her defense...īcause these girls can reach must balls too and return it back with zip.

tennnisfannn
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:22 PM
Wrong. Kim just figured out how to play Lindsay, just like it took Venus ages to figure it out. Move her around and she will hit the errors for you with pleasure. Lindsay is neither on the list of those mentioned nor is she the fatest out there. Moving is easier said than done, because you have to posses the weapons to move Lindsay. Kim has it, but that is not the issue here.
I only brought in Lindsay coz most of the above comments were about Kim's aggressiveness or lack of. I don't believe that players need to have identical games to be successful. So what if Kim isn't very aggressive against the three mentioned above, she has alot other weapons and she should be able to use them to her advantage. She will probably figure it sometimes anyway.

gentenaire
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:26 PM
Gee, Bandabou, you make it seem as if all Kim is capable of is bringing the ball back :rolleyes: Why don't you watch some of her matches without your prejudiced anti-Belgian glasses on?

Volcana
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:36 PM
That she became no.1 doesnīt say much. with this system it is easy to become no.1

Then why have there been so few #1's?

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:36 PM
Gee, Bandabou, you make it seem as if all Kim is capable of is bringing the ball back :rolleyes: Why don't you watch some of her matches without your prejudiced anti-Belgian glasses on?

No anti-Belgian thing.....I just donīt think that Kim is as agressive as she should be. She is a big girl....she shouldnīt be playing like ASV.

Justinefan
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:39 PM
Gee, Bandabou, you make it seem as if all Kim is capable of is bringing the ball back :rolleyes: Why don't you watch some of her matches without your prejudiced anti-Belgian glasses on?
Bandabou doesn't really support anyone but the Williams sisters....anyway.. Kim and Jennifer reasons for not being able to win are completely mental. Obviously Kim can win.. she got to number 1.. and it be nice if people stopped saying that it's easy or that it's a joke.. she worked hard to get there.. she completely deserves it.. what everyone wants to know is.. what is going on in her head during those big slam moments?

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:42 PM
Then why have there been so few #1's?

Because this new system rewards quantity over quality. But never said Kim wasnīt a good player.

servenrichie
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:43 PM
Bandabou doesn't really support anyone but the Williams sisters....anyway.. Kim and Jennifer reasons for not being able to win are completely mental. Obviously Kim can win.. she got to number 1.. and it be nice if people stopped saying that it's easy or that it's a joke.. she worked hard to get there.. she completely deserves it.. what everyone wants to know is.. what is going on in her head during those big slam moments?

And you support everyone except the Williams sisters. Different strokes for different folks :p

Justinefan
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:44 PM
No I support Venus and i'm the first to admit i'm not fond of Serena.. I never said she wasn't good.. but you seem to think that other players haven't reached the ws sister level.. and i find that humourous .

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:45 PM
Bandabou doesn't really support anyone but the Williams sisters....anyway.. Kim and Jennifer reasons for not being able to win are completely mental. Obviously Kim can win.. she got to number 1.. and it be nice if people stopped saying that it's easy or that it's a joke.. she worked hard to get there.. she completely deserves it.. what everyone wants to know is.. what is going on in her head during those big slam moments?


Thatīs the question: Why canīt the no.1 player in the world stand up for the big occations?! This isnīt really Kim only. I was getting upset with Serena too when she failed to win against Martina at the Oz in ī01 and against Cappy at Wimby....but at least she had already won a GS plus she wasnīt anywhere close to no.1 then.

Volcana
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:47 PM
Just compare my shape of the head after watching Kim matches compared to watching matches of Justine.

ROTFLMAO!!!

When Kim plays, I have to bang my head against whatever I find repeatedly, when she again plays a drop shot at a bad moment (fortunately she's doing that less and less), hits the ball out, goes for it too much, etc.

Well, some of those things are a function of youth. When Venus was 20, she went for the house everytime. So did Serena. So did Lindsay, Monica, a lot of players. With age, hopefully, comes superior judgement.

A year and a half from now, Kim won't try to hit cross-court winners from five feet behind the baseline. She'll stop letting opponents GET her into situations where she has to do that.

Justinefan
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:47 PM
here we go.. now we're talking real tennis... I think maybe the number 1's feel like there is to much pressure on them to win.. Like Federer..winning Wimbledon and everyone freaked out when he didnt' win again... and For Roddick.. winning the US Open and then losing his Davis Cup match... For Kim i'm not so sure... she's hard to figure out..she's got the skill.. and even in AO before she was number 1.. she had like a 5-1 lead in the 3rd didn't she?? I mean how can you lose that!

servenrichie
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:52 PM
No I support Venus and i'm the first to admit i'm not fond of Serena.. I never said she wasn't good.. but you seem to think that other players haven't reached the ws sister level.. and i find that humourous .

As a matter of fact yes. V & S in their breakthrough year managed to beat the then no.1 and no.2 (Hingis and Davenport) consistently. Yet Kim and Justine have managed only a 7-2 h2h this year against V & S, which tells me that they are not fully there yet. They are working towards it, no doubt about it, but it aint yet enough. As you said we shall see.

If you are not fond of Serena, good for you. I am quite fond of her. Thank ou!

Justinefan
Oct 7th, 2003, 03:57 PM
Good for you, i'm glad you like Serena.. I've moved on to another topic.. so if you want to discuss tennis.. and pressure on the #1's more power to ya.. otherwise.. we're done.

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 04:00 PM
As a matter of fact yes. V & S in their breakthrough year managed to beat the then no.1 and no.2 (Hingis and Davenport) consistently. Yet Kim and Justine have managed only a 7-2 h2h this year against V & S, which tells me that they are not fully there yet. They are working towards it, no doubt about it, but it aint yet enough. As you said we shall see.

If you are not fond of Serena, good for you. I am quite fond of her. Thank ou!

Exactly. When Serena won her first slam: she beat Hingis and Davenport back to back. In fact she was beating them consistently in ī99.

Idem for Venus. In ī00 she beat both Lindsay and Hingis on her route to her titles and completely dominated them the rest of the year.

So far the Belgians havenīt really dominated the sisters. Heck, they are barely beating them...so they still have their works cut out for them.

servenrichie
Oct 7th, 2003, 04:08 PM
Good for you, i'm glad you like Serena.. I've moved on to another topic.. so if you want to discuss tennis.. and pressure on the #1's more power to ya.. otherwise.. we're done.

My bad, I thought that is exactly what we are discussing.
I digress the argument isnt exactly going your way? :p

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 04:11 PM
My bad, I thought that is exactly what we are discussing.
I digress the argument isnt exactly going your way? :p
:haha: :smash:

RAA
Oct 7th, 2003, 08:34 PM
I think the difference between kim and say serena and Justine and venus is that Kim doesn't seem to have another level up to go to in big matches.
yes, her style of play will win her 99% of her matches because the tour is just not that deep and she is a helluva player.

but we've all seen Serena, Venus and now justine totally raise the level of their games. I've not yet seen Kim go to a totally different level in the BIG matches.

its not a question of being high risk or low risk or aggressive or what. different styles do work. Hingis was not a particularly risky player, but she was successful. Serena is quite a risky player and she is successful. the difference is that these champions have another level that they can reach and sustain through big matches.
I wasn't sure that Justine had it until I saw the USOpen this year.. but she sure does.

Kim needs to FIND that higher level and GET there during her next BIG match.

bandabou
Oct 7th, 2003, 08:38 PM
I think the difference between kim and say serena and Justine and venus is that Kim doesn't seem to have another level up to go to in big matches.
yes, her style of play will win her 99% of her matches because the tour is just not that deep and she is a helluva player.

but we've all seen Serena, Venus and now justine totally raise the level of their games. I've not yet seen Kim go to a totally different level in the BIG matches.

its not a question of being high risk or low risk or aggressive or what. different styles do work. Hingis was not a particularly risky player, but she was successful. Serena is quite a risky player and she is successful. the difference is that these champions have another level that they can reach and sustain through big matches.
I wasn't sure that Justine had it until I saw the USOpen this year.. but she sure does.

Kim needs to FIND that higher level and GET there during her next BIG match.

Hey maybe that is it! She just can shift gears....she has only one gear and canīt change to where she is just playing at a different level than everybody else.

At the slam semiīs and finals, she shifted gears.....but it was a DOWN shift and she forgot to go up again! ;)

servenrichie
Oct 7th, 2003, 08:42 PM
Hey maybe that is it! She just can shift gears....she has only one gear and canīt change to where she is just playing at a different level than everybody else.

At the slam semiīs and finals, she shifted gears.....but it was a DOWN shift and she forgot to go up again! ;)
:lol: :lol: :lol: you are very mischievous :lol: :lol: :lol: