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Brαm
Aug 6th, 2003, 10:56 AM
I think it's weird that I don't have any friends with Asian or African roots! :confused:

Mattographer
Aug 6th, 2003, 10:58 AM
Really? :eek: Luxembourg is your neighbour country, right? It's the most multiculturism in the world.

:confused:

Xian
Aug 6th, 2003, 10:59 AM
me either but I think that not a big deal ;)

Hulet
Aug 6th, 2003, 11:00 AM
I think it's weird that I don't have any friends with Asian or African roots! :confused:
This is easy to fix. Just grab a box of crayon and colour away your nearest friend.

:bad bad joke: :o

Mattographer
Aug 6th, 2003, 11:02 AM
me either but I think that not a big deal ;)
Yeah, it's no big deal.

Colin B
Aug 6th, 2003, 01:05 PM
This reminds me of someone I know. She 'collects' friends and has a mental list:
Gay - tick,
Lesbian - tick,
Inuit - tick
Black-disabled-lesbian-single-mother-alien-abductee - not yet damn.

Jordan.
Aug 6th, 2003, 01:15 PM
Hmmmm...

DutchieGirl
Aug 6th, 2003, 01:20 PM
This reminds me of someone I know. She 'collects' friends and has a mental list:
Gay - tick,
Lesbian - tick,
Inuit - tick
Black-disabled-lesbian-single-mother-alien-abductee - not yet damn.

hmm... I have gay friends and lesbian friends, but not the others... then again, I don't have any Aboriginal friends - but there are no Aboriginals living near me, and none went to my school.

Bram, I think it depends on where you live and who you go to school with! (Or if you play sport with different people).

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 01:23 PM
hmmmmm....it happens to some people

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 01:31 PM
did someone say coloured?

please hop into the 20th century, thanks.

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 01:44 PM
did someone say coloured?

please hop into the 20th century, thanks.

cariosity, bram_born84 is from europe. they still use the term "colored", even in english-speaking countries like england, scotland and ireland

bran_born84, you're not the only one and as inkyfan said, it all depends on where you live. it doesn't make you any more or less of a person whether you have friends of color or not. it's all circumstantial.

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 01:45 PM
we use it, but i cant say its used often in the UK...and since we never had things which were labelled "coloured" and "white" i guess it doesnt hold the same sort of meaning for us....

Josh
Aug 6th, 2003, 01:47 PM
Really? :eek: Luxembourg is your neighbour country, right? It's the most multiculturism in the world.

:confused:

Luxembourg hosts many people from all over Europe because it's on of the three capitals of the EU. The country hardly has any people of non-European descent.

Josh
Aug 6th, 2003, 01:50 PM
And I don't think it's weird you don't have any non-European friends since you're living in a small town in West-Flanders. ;) :p

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 01:56 PM
well, it was obvious from the spelling of colored that so and so was from Europe. but not everyone who posts on this board is from Europe and the poster should have known that. that term is offensive to me.

For instance, what if I posted that I didn't have any 'queer' friends, I'm sure someone would have been offended. It's just common courtesy, thanks.

Zamboni
Aug 6th, 2003, 01:56 PM
lol Bram, but were there many coloured people at your school?

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 01:57 PM
we use it, but i cant say its used often in the UK...and since we never had things which were labelled "coloured" and "white" i guess it doesnt hold the same sort of meaning for us....

yes, americans are much more race-conscious than other countries which is unfortunate. "colored" was banished from official documents and everyday speak in the late 60's/early 70's.

Brαm
Aug 6th, 2003, 01:57 PM
And I don't think it's weird you don't have any non-European friends since you're living in a small town in West-Flanders. ;) :p
Small?! :p:p

And it's a CITY, not a town btw! ;)

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:02 PM
well, it was obvious from the spelling of colored that so and so was from Europe. but not everyone who posts on this board is from Europe and the poster should have known that. that term is offensive to me.

For instance, what if I posted that I didn't have any 'queer' friends, I'm sure someone would have been offended. It's just common courtesy, thanks.

cariosity, i apologize if you felt i was "scolding" you because i wasn't. :o bram_born84 is not american and may not know that "colored" is offensive to black people. that's all i was pointing out to you: bram_born84 apparently didn't know it was inappropriate to use that term because if its history.

Brαm
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:02 PM
did someone say coloured?

please hop into the 20th century, thanks.
20th? Aren't we in the 21st century?

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:06 PM
yes, americans are much more race-conscious than other countries which is unfortunate. "colored" was banished from official documents and everyday speak in the late 60's/early 70's.

lol see you learn something everyday :o

i didnt know that

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:07 PM
so if i went to the US and said "coloured" to a black person, would i get hurt?

Vincent
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:07 PM
So can i be your friend? I am from Hong Kong and chinese with Asian root.:)

*JR*
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:08 PM
20th? Aren't we in the 21st century?
LOL! And since I know you're not a hater, I was wondering how long it would take for the thread title to "change its pigmentation". :p

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:11 PM
20th? Aren't we in the 21st century?
yes, we are which is why I said what I said. you're a century behind using that term. :rolleyes:

gosh, people really don't get jokes anymore.

but thanks for changing the topic. now I don't have to start my smart-assed 'I don't have any cracker friends' thread. :tape: :tape: :tape:

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:16 PM
so if i went to the US and said "coloured" to a black person, would i get hurt?

you could, haha.;) no, but you'd definitely get an "excuse me? what did you just say?"

i still hear the term from time to time when i travel throughout america. from older people my age (50 and over), i can understand; it's a hard habit to break. however, when i hear an american teenager say "colored" i'm truly astounded because they should know better (their parents and teachers should've corrected this long ago).

Brαm
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:20 PM
Cariosity, I'm not American so how could I know? :confused:

The translation of that term into Dutch isn't considered as offensive here...

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:20 PM
you could, haha.;) no, but you'd definitely get an "excuse me? what did you just say?"

i still hear the term from time to time when i travel throughout america. from older people my age (50 and over), i can understand; it's a hard habit to break. however, when i hear an american teenager say "colored" i'm truly astounded because they should know better (their parents and teachers should've corrected this long ago).

man this what u should/shouldnt say is too much :o:tape:;)

i might say it though....im interested to see how quick one runs when theyve got a beatdown coming their way

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:24 PM
yes, we are which is why I said what I said. you're a century behind using that term. :rolleyes:

gosh, people really don't get jokes anymore.

cariosity, sorry i can be a bit stuffy :o so i didn't realize you were joking when you wrote:

did someone say coloured?

please hop into the 20th century, thanks.

:o

Zamboni
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:28 PM
Can I ask what is wrong with the term coloured anyway? I mean if we can say 'black' why can't we say 'coloured'? Or is saying someone's 'black' offensive too in the USA?

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:29 PM
man this what u should/shouldnt say is too much :o:tape:;)

i might say it though....im interested to see how quick one runs when theyve got a beatdown coming their way

i know! :o in america, for example, white people can get anxiety-ridden just by saying: "dolores chambers, that BLACK woman over there..." so they'll go the politcally correct way and say "that woman with grey hair in the yellow dress".

or you'll get a black person who's uncomfortable to say "that WHITE woman" in front of mixed company so they revert to the safer "that caucasian female".

"oriental" is as bad as "colored" so the pc term is "asian".

it goes on and on... :o

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:31 PM
i know! :o in america, for example, while people can get anxiety-ridden just by saying: "dolores chambers, that BLACK woman over there..." so they'll go the politcally correct way and say "that woman with grey hair in the yellow dress".

or you'll get a black person who's uncomfortable to say "that WHITE woman" in front of mixed company so they revert to the safer "that caucasian female".

"oriental" is as bad as "colored" so the pc term is "asian".

it goes on and on... :o

wow i think i should take lessons and buy a handbook before i go to the states again :o

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:33 PM
adnil: just so u know, we WILL get Van der Vaart :);)

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:34 PM
sorry but colored/coloured implies a certain era of discrimination in this country. colored and white drinking fountains and the like.

and plus... colored just doesn't sound right. it implies that something is wrong with those that are colored. that they're somehow altered. someone is white and everybody that isn't white is colored. does any one not see how this could be offensive? we're white and everybody else is colored. white has an identity while colored is just some other thing altogether.

understand, now?

and it's ok, dolo, :tape:

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:34 PM
Can I ask what is wrong with the term coloured anyway? I mean if we can say 'black' why can't we say 'coloured'? Or is saying someone's 'black' offensive too in the USA?

adnil, i won't give you a history lesson but the term "colored" stems back to the days of slavery and it bring backs many negative reminders of when black people were mistreated. "colored" not only meant black but it meant "less than" (not as good). in general terms, i don't like "colored" because it just means non-white but isn't white a color? so we are all colored.

Zamboni
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:39 PM
I know it goes back to slavery and I understand it was offensive then cos it implied a lower standard, but for me it doesn't have that implication at all. For me "white", "colored" and "black" just refer to skin color (and yes, Asian people are "colored" too for me) and to nothing else.

Guess America is just different than Europe ;)

Brαm
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:40 PM
So what's the politically correct term for - forgive me - "black" ppl then?
In the USA, "African American" is used, but that makes me think... African? Some "African" Americans haven't even been to Africa once!? :confused:
And don't say: their ancestors come from Africa.. We ALL originate from Africa, don't we?

It seems like only Americans are so sensitive when it comes to these names!

Zamboni
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:40 PM
And SJW, maybe next summer but not earlier! No way :p

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:40 PM
bram_born84, adnil, sweet_sjw, here's more information on the history of "colored" in america:

http://www.thestateonline.com/civilrights/day1/scene02.php

http://www.thestateonline.com/civilrights/day1/courtsign.jpg

Zamboni
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:41 PM
So what's the politically correct term for - forgive me - "black" ppl then?
In the USA, "African American" is used, but that makes me think... African? Some "African" Americans haven't even been to Africa once!? :confused:
And don't say: their ancestors come from Africa.. We ALL originate from Africa, don't we?

It seems like only Americans are so sensitive when it comes to these names!
I agree, I think African Americans is just a weird term, sorry.

Brαm
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:42 PM
Guess America is just different than Europe ;)
It seems like only Americans are so sensitive when it comes to these names!

We agree :) :wavey:

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:46 PM
African-American is a term that African-Americans came with to identify themselves. For years, white people have decided what to refer to us and when we finally decide as a community to come up with a term that pays homage to our ancestors and gives us a self-defined identity, there's a problem.

We didn't come up with black, colored, ****** or whatever else name we were/have been or are still called today.

and usually first, second or third generation African Americans are usually called 'country name here'-American like Irish, Italian and even Japanese-American are called. Since most African-Americans don't have ties to their history as a result of being sold and forcibly assimilated into white culture, using that term allows them to pay respect to their homeland.

And while people did originate in Africa, the majority of the world does not accept it. I have a hard time believing the grand wizard of the ku klux klan would call himself African-American. :tape: :tape: :tape:

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:46 PM
yah-huh Adnil, hes a Liverpool player b4 xmas i ASSURE u!!! :D:p

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:46 PM
I agree, I think African Americans is just a weird term, sorry.

don't be sorry. :) while we use it more than other groups, hearing/seeing "asian-american" is not uncommon. you get your italian-american and irish-american proclamations as well. lost immigrants. it's the story of this country. ;)

andylover_16
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:48 PM
it is.....i thought that was the proper term for a black person......but it is sort of weird like calling white people caucasian... :tape: ....strange...i have black friends and asian friends but i dont have any gay or lesbian friends....ive always thought it would be fun to have a gay guy friend though....they're so funny :lol:

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:49 PM
bram_born84, adnil, sweet_sjw, here's more information on the history of "colored" in america:

http://www.thestateonline.com/civilrights/day1/scene02.php

http://www.thestateonline.com/civilrights/day1/courtsign.jpg

thank you, i did a lot on the civil rights movement in History but i had a biased education...i get the feeling that i was taught with the board of education not wanting to reveal the true story....

gentenaire
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:50 PM
I'm afraid I used to make the same mistake. I actually thought coloured was the politically correct term.

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:51 PM
lol, babe, your education was biased? here, in like 2nd grade we get how great MLK was and like a 'long, long time ago' blacks and whites couldn't live together.

when I went to kindergarten in '85, it's hard to believe that just 8 years earlier, schools were still being desegregated. In fact I was bused to a magnet school in the suburbs when I used to live in the 'hood. I'm thankful for that experience. My two best friends was a white girl and a Vietnamese girl. For some reason, we had a hard time. We weren't supposed to be friends, I guess.

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:52 PM
no wonder James came to me BB :eek::p

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:53 PM
So what's the politically correct term for - forgive me - "black" ppl then?
In the USA, "African American" is used, but that makes me think... African? Some "African" Americans haven't even been to Africa once!? :confused:
And don't say: their ancestors come from Africa.. We ALL originate from Africa, don't we?

It seems like only Americans are so sensitive when it comes to these names!

black or african-american is fine.

i know you didn't mean it in an offensive way but you've just admitted that you don't have non-white friends so it can give one the impression that you have had no real dealings with non-white people so you don't understand their experience or issues.

gentenaire
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:53 PM
James is sitting next to me, honey, laughing his ass off that you actually believed his body double to be him :p

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:55 PM
oh, hell nawl... James is on his knees in front of me... :tape: :tape:

and, seriously, I know you guys didn't mean it to be offensive. :D

andylover_16
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:55 PM
.....thats sad......but im sure a good experience....i've never had to go through an experience that has tought me something really......i would like to go to a homeless shelter though and help distrubute the food.....i would probably cry though ......because its so sad...

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:56 PM
African-American is a term that African-Americans came with to identify themselves. For years, white people have decided what to refer to us and when we finally decide as a community to come up with a term that pays homage to our ancestors and gives us a self-defined identity, there's a problem.

We didn't come up with black, colored, ****** or whatever else name we were/have been or are still called today.

and usually first, second or third generation African Americans are usually called 'country name here'-American like Irish, Italian and even Japanese-American are called. Since most African-Americans don't have ties to their history as a result of being sold and forcibly assimilated into white culture, using that term allows them to pay respect to their homeland.

And while people did originate in Africa, the majority of the world does not accept it. I have a hard time believing the grand wizard of the ku klux klan would call himself African-American. :tape: :tape: :tape:

outstanding! :bigclap:

gentenaire
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:58 PM
It's like 'you people', never realised what was wrong with that either until Cari and SJW decided to have fun at my expense (at least I got James) ;)

DutchieGirl
Aug 6th, 2003, 02:58 PM
well, it was obvious from the spelling of colored that so and so was from Europe. but not everyone who posts on this board is from Europe and the poster should have known that. that term is offensive to me.

For instance, what if I posted that I didn't have any 'queer' friends, I'm sure someone would have been offended. It's just common courtesy, thanks.

:rolleyes: geez - so he can't make a mistake? You could just ask him nicely to change the title of the thread you know! Yeah, I probably would have been offended if you had said "queer"...in fact, no actually, I wouldn't have been, and if I had a problem with it, I would have just asked for you to change the title!

andylover_16
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:02 PM
at least queer is less offensive than fag..or lesbian......i think its just safe to say gay.......

Brαm
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:02 PM
black or african-american is fine.

i know you didn't mean it in an offensive way but you've just admitted that you don't have non-white friends so it can give one the impression that you have had no real dealings with non-white people so you don't understand their experience or issues.
Even if I did have black friends, they wouldn't be offended by the term "coloured" I think.
Black ppl living in Belgium weren't brought here to work on our cotton plantations :lol: ;)

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:02 PM
most europeans I know, know it's offensive. :)

actually, that was in response to a smart-assed comment. I tend to answer posts directed at me in the same manner.

well, s/he didn't say ****** so perhaps it's not as bad.

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:02 PM
It's like 'you people', never realised what was wrong with that either until Cari and SJW decided to have fun at my expense (at least I got James) ;)

OMG that was soooooooo funny! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: oh the good times....and nah-uh no you didnt get James :p

gentenaire
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:03 PM
Sarah, Cari just said she realises Bram didn't mean to be offensive. I can easily imagine, considering the history, that is a touchy subject, I guess it's still too raw.

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:03 PM
Even if I did have black friends, they wouldn't be offended by the term "coloured" I think.
Black ppl living in Belgium weren't brought here to work on our cotton plantations :lol: ;)
yeah, they just worked on the plantations owned by the Belgians in their native countries. :tape: ;)

gentenaire
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:04 PM
Even if I did have black friends, they wouldn't be offended by the term "coloured" I think.
Black ppl living in Belgium weren't brought here to work on our cotton plantations :lol: ;)

The majority are from Congo and you can't say Belgians have been particularly nice to the people of Congo. They have every reason to resent us.

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:04 PM
:haha: @ you people! HEEHEHEHE! good times!

James is mine.

DutchieGirl
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:06 PM
at least queer is less offensive than fag..or lesbian......i think its just safe to say gay.......

calling someone a lesbian is offensive??? :confused: Since when? I pretty much am one, and I usually call myself one (as opposed to bi). Yeah, fag is offensive though.

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:06 PM
Even if I did have black friends, they wouldn't be offended by the term "coloured" I think.
Black ppl living in Belgium weren't brought here to work on our cotton plantations :lol: ;)

bram_born84, that's not funny. :( saying something like that makes you sound really sheltered. as for black people living belgium, i don't know about them but sorry i wouldn't ask you for your opinion on them since you have no interaction with them.

andylover_16
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:07 PM
why does it matter anyways....that was in the past.......what i dont understand is how some black people freak out if someone say the "n" word or whatever(which i will never say)......but yet they can say it to each other....it doesnt make much sense..... :tape:

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:07 PM
lesbian is offensive? :confused:

maybe to the people that live on Lesbos island. :haha: :haha:

Brαm
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:08 PM
I wonder how many of the people living in Belgium are from foreign countries? Anyone who knows the stats?

DutchieGirl
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:08 PM
Sarah, Cari just said she realises Bram didn't mean to be offensive. I can easily imagine, considering the history, that is a touchy subject, I guess it's still too raw.

Yeah well, I hadn't read that far when I replied...I don't read the whole thread and then reply, I read the posts and reply to the one I feel like, then keep reading the ones I haven't read.

And I think alot of people outside of America wouldn't have known that the specific term in question shouldn't be used, coz I sure as heck didn't know! I don't usually use that term anyway, but I didn't think it was a bad term like the "n" word or something!

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:09 PM
Sarah, Cari just said she realises Bram didn't mean to be offensive. I can easily imagine, considering the history, that is a touchy subject, I guess it's still too raw.

tehehehehe, Bram's was totally innocent, you on the other hand deserved the confusion because u have the AUDACITY to suggest James is yours :p

Brαm
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:10 PM
bram_born84, that's not funny. :( saying something like that makes you sound really sheltered. as for black people living belgium, i don't know about them but sorry i wouldn't ask you for your opinion on them since you have no interaction with them.
I was mocking the Belgian agriculture! We don't have anything here, except for patatoes maybe ;)

andylover_16
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:11 PM
well.....not really ....to some people.....agh im digging myself in a hole with this one....lol...... :tape:

skanky~skanketta
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:12 PM
fortunately, i have friends of all races, though i admit, i'm prejudiced against a certain race. not telling which tho! :tape: cuz online, everyone is a nice healthy magenta to me!

DutchieGirl
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:12 PM
Anyway, to me "coloured" doesn't even bring to mind someone who is black first off. I grew up studying South Africa, and so to me I always think of someone who's half black and half white as being coloured, not someone completely black... so I think it really does depend on what you have been taught at school as to what terms to use!

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:14 PM
chocolate and diamonds also bram :drool:

imma become belgian :D:p

gentenaire
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:14 PM
I wonder how many of the people living in Belgium are from foreign countries? Anyone who knows the stats?

10% of our population (but I think the majority are Dutch). There really aren't that many blacks living here permanently, I think. The only black children I've encountered in school were adopted.

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:15 PM
why does it matter anyways....that was in the past.......what i dont understand is how some black people freak out if someone say the "n" word or whatever(which i will never say)......but yet they can say it to each other....it doesnt make much sense..... :tape:

andylover_16, i don't have really have the energy to delve into the topic of the "n" word but think about it this way: how would you like it if blacks, asians and hispanics called you "whitey" or "cracker" or the antiquated term "honky" all the time, either with malicious intent or in a friendly manner?

gentenaire
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:15 PM
tehehehehe, Bram's was totally innocent, you on the other hand deserved the confusion because u have the AUDACITY to suggest James is yours :p

suggest? Face the fact, honey!

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:16 PM
well, andy, the fact you'd never say it pretty much answered your question.

but to break it down, imagined being mocked for who you were and that you can't change. how damaging is that?

for instance, let me reach into my brown/blue eye study archives and use that example. say I have blue eyes (which is genetically impossible due to my chocolate skintone but if I were say Vanessa Williams' shade, it would be) and you have brown eyes. what if I told you that I was genetically superior... that I was meant to have a successful life while you're basically a piece of shit that'll never amount to anything. That because of your eye color, you're a liar, you steal and you are just good enough to clean my clothes, make my dinner and work in my fields. how would you feel? you'd feel a bit helpless, right? and of course, in order to keep you in a sort of condition of helplessness I need to use a word that will remind you of your plight in life. let's just for argument's sake say that word is ******.

oh, and on top of that, let me convert you to christianity and use the fact that God gave you brown eyes to my advantage. See, God gave you those brown eyes because you are a flawed creation. because I have blue eyes, I'm perfect.

so, see, over time, I won't even need to go through the trouble of reminding you that you have brown eyes. I can just say '******' and you'll know what I mean.

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:17 PM
I was mocking the Belgian agriculture! We don't have anything here, except for patatoes maybe ;)

yes, you were mocking the belgian agriculture but inadvertently you reduced us again to nothing but a bunch of cotton pickers. that's what i mean by "sheltered".

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:17 PM
oh and dolo, did I explain that well enough? did I say what you wanted to say? :D

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:18 PM
suggest? Face the fact, honey!

fact is hes mine babygirl!!!

skanky~skanketta
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:19 PM
um, about the whole brown eye blue eye thing. there's nothing superior about being blue-eyed cuz lighter eye colors are more prone to diseases. so i say my gooseshit brown eyes ROCKS!

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:20 PM
well, andy, the fact you'd never say it pretty much answered your question.

but to break it down, imagined being mocked for who you were and that you can't change. how damaging is that?

for instance, let me reach into my brown/blue eye study archives and use that example. say I have blue eyes (which is genetically impossible due to my chocolate skintone but if I were say Vanessa Williams' shade, it would be) and you have brown eyes. what if I told you that I was genetically superior... that I was meant to have a successful life while you're basically a piece of shit that'll never amount to anything. That because of your eye color, you're a liar, you steal and you are just good enough to clean my clothes, make my dinner and work in my fields. how would you feel? you'd feel a bit helpless, right? and of course, in order to keep you in a sort of condition of helplessness I need to use a word that will remind you of your plight in life. let's just for argument's sake say that word is ******.

oh, and on top of that, let me convert you to christianity and use the fact that God gave you brown eyes to my advantage. See, God gave you those brown eyes because you are a flawed creation. because I have blue eyes, I'm perfect.

so, see, over time, I won't even need to go through the trouble of reminding you that you have brown eyes. I can just say '******' and you'll know what I mean.

you're batting a thousand, cariosity! :bigclap:

sartrista7
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:20 PM
well, andy, the fact you'd never say it pretty much answered your question.

but to break it down, imagined being mocked for who you were and that you can't change. how damaging is that?

for instance, let me reach into my brown/blue eye study archives and use that example. say I have blue eyes (which is genetically impossible due to my chocolate skintone but if I were say Vanessa Williams' shade, it would be) and you have brown eyes. what if I told you that I was genetically superior... that I was meant to have a successful life while you're basically a piece of shit that'll never amount to anything. That because of your eye color, you're a liar, you steal and you are just good enough to clean my clothes, make my dinner and work in my fields. how would you feel? you'd feel a bit helpless, right? and of course, in order to keep you in a sort of condition of helplessness I need to use a word that will remind you of your plight in life. let's just for argument's sake say that word is ******.

oh, and on top of that, let me convert you to christianity and use the fact that God gave you brown eyes to my advantage. See, God gave you those brown eyes because you are a flawed creation. because I have blue eyes, I'm perfect.

so, see, over time, I won't even need to go through the trouble of reminding you that you have brown eyes. I can just say '******' and you'll know what I mean.

I think what the kid was asking is why black people are generally OK with saying 'nigga' to each other, which is illogical.

It's like this though - these words aren't in and of themselves offensive. They're just a collection of syllables. They're offensive when meant to be derogatory or malicious, and to use those words in a non-derogatory manner is to take away their negative power. That's why 'queer' is the key word for the gay rights movement. It's all about the reclamation of linguistics which have previously been used against you.

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:20 PM
ROFL! @ Roni... :D I love you girl!

It was just an example some teacher in Iowa used to explain race relations to third graders in the 60's. It was very interesting. :D

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:21 PM
oh and dolo, did I explain that well enough? did I say what you wanted to say? :D

yes, you did, cariosity! you articulated it better than i ever could! :worship:

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:22 PM
well, andy, the fact you'd never say it pretty much answered your question.

but to break it down, imagined being mocked for who you were and that you can't change. how damaging is that?

for instance, let me reach into my brown/blue eye study archives and use that example. say I have blue eyes (which is genetically impossible due to my chocolate skintone but if I were say Vanessa Williams' shade, it would be) and you have brown eyes. what if I told you that I was genetically superior... that I was meant to have a successful life while you're basically a piece of shit that'll never amount to anything. That because of your eye color, you're a liar, you steal and you are just good enough to clean my clothes, make my dinner and work in my fields. how would you feel? you'd feel a bit helpless, right? and of course, in order to keep you in a sort of condition of helplessness I need to use a word that will remind you of your plight in life. let's just for argument's sake say that word is ******.

oh, and on top of that, let me convert you to christianity and use the fact that God gave you brown eyes to my advantage. See, God gave you those brown eyes because you are a flawed creation. because I have blue eyes, I'm perfect.

so, see, over time, I won't even need to go through the trouble of reminding you that you have brown eyes. I can just say '******' and you'll know what I mean.

wow :worship:

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:23 PM
All the black people I know detest the use of 'nigga'...

you are correct that women's use of the word 'bitch', although trivial in comparison, and gay's use of 'queer' is an attempt to make a negative into a positive but I cringe when people say 'nigga'. I detest any variation of that word. But with my girlfriends, I'll say 'you bitch!' or something similar. It's all in jest.

In short, rappers don't speak for me. :D

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:23 PM
fortunately, i have friends of all races, though i admit, i'm prejudiced against a certain race. not telling which tho! :tape: cuz online, everyone is a nice healthy magenta to me!

this post.....since i know who u mean i think u got the wrong word...you aint "prejudiced" :tape:

Brαm
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:24 PM
yes, you were mocking the belgian agriculture but inadvertently you reduced us again to nothing but a bunch of cotton pickers. that's what i mean by "sheltered".
You're the one who made me read something about South-Carolina... The black ppl who live there, were brought by ships from Africa, to work on the plantations right?

sartrista7
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:25 PM
All the black people I know detest the use of 'nigga'...

you are correct that women's use of the word 'bitch', although trivial in comparison, and gay's use of 'queer' is an attempt to make a positive into a negative but I cringe when people say 'nigga'. I detest any variation of that word. But with my girlfriends, I'll say 'you bitch!' or something similar. It's all in jest.

In short, rappers don't speak for me. :D


Well, that's nice for you :D I don't like the word 'queer' either... but those are the reasons. I prefer 'fag' myself. Cigarettes!

skanky~skanketta
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:25 PM
lol!seriously though, i wish i could learn US history. its MUCH more interesting than the malaysian one. and the whole thing about how the blacks were put down and all. well, i find it absolutely intriguing. and what does ****** really mean?

skanky~skanketta
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:25 PM
then what would u call it dear ol saz?

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:26 PM
shoot i meant negative into a positive, sorry, i'm typing too fast.

thanks babe and dolo. :kiss:

****** means ignorant... oh the irony.

gentenaire
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:27 PM
We did get the history of slavery in school, we know what happened. Connotations of certain words and expressions weren't covered in our history lesson.

skanky~skanketta
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:27 PM
so back then, it was really the whites that were ******'s huh. of all the nerve!

gentenaire
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:29 PM
um, about the whole brown eye blue eye thing. there's nothing superior about being blue-eyed cuz lighter eye colors are more prone to diseases. so i say my gooseshit brown eyes ROCKS!

*blows nose while downing glass with two aspirin tablets with left hand since right arm is in plaster after dropping a feather on it* Damn my blue eyes!

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:29 PM
You're the one who made me read something about South-Carolina... The black ppl who live there, were brought by ships from Africa, to work on the plantations right?

bram_born84, i'm sorry we have a misunderstanding on our hands. i didn't realize you were making reference to the link i posted. :o what you said was offensive but again you didn't realize that. call me too sensitive, if you must. unfortunately, i don't have the energy at the moment to elaborate further than that.

Brαm
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:34 PM
bram_born84, i'm sorry we have a misunderstanding on our hands. i didn't realize you were making reference to the link i posted. :o what you said was offensive but again you didn't realize that. call me too sensitive, if you must. unfortunately, i don't have the energy at the moment to elaborate further than that.
That's ok.. You've already taught me a lot today!

I was just wondering... Can you ever say something that is NOT offensive to black ppl? :o
Seems like almost everything can be considered as offensive! :eek:

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:43 PM
:haha: :haha:

too funny. black is fine, worldwide. :D

andylover_16
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:44 PM
andylover_16, i don't have really have the energy to delve into the topic of the "n" word but think about it this way: how would you like it if blacks, asians and hispanics called you "whitey" or "cracker" or the antiquated term "honky" all the time, either with malicious intent or in a friendly manner?

thats not what im saying....im asking why black people can say like what up my n and stuff like that......and they think its so offensive when any race but themselves say it to them and feel they have to go into this long discussion!

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:57 PM
thats not what im saying....im asking why black people can say like what up my n and stuff like that......and they think its so offensive when any race but themselves say it to them and feel they have to go into this long discussion!

andy_lover16, first of all, i don't like the "n" word and never have.

the reason that you'll hear SOME blacks use it with each other as a term of endearment is because some blacks have reclaimed the word. cariosity has already given you a vivid example of why it's offensive but why have some blacks reclaimed the word, meaning why are they utilizing a word that has belittled them for years? because by doing so, by using the "n" word, by embracing the word, they take away its power, the power that white people had over them whenever they were called the "n" word.

why can't white people use it? you were the originators of the word and you used it to demean the black race and so hearing whites use it today only reminds black people of the bigotry of the past.

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 04:05 PM
:yeah: I had to go do some work but that's essentially what I meant, dolo. :D

it's kind of like redneck... no actually redneck was made up by white folks. hmmm... cracker, which dolo stated earlier. ok... chink. I had to reach into the racial insult bag for that one. I know of some Chinese/Japanese/Vietmanese/Korean people who refer to each other as that in a joking matter. But if a white person, the race that originated the word, said it, it doesn't bring a feeling of 'warmth and familiarity' but it brings a feeling of pain, a reminder of the internment camps during world war II (Japanese), or building the railroads in the west and the discrimination that came with that (Chinese)... and so on.

So, for black people, the word ****** doesn't make us feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 04:10 PM
That's ok.. You've already taught me a lot today!

I was just wondering... Can you ever say something that is NOT offensive to black ppl? :o
Seems like almost everything can be considered as offensive! :eek:

do you mean, can you speak about racial issues with blacks without them getting offended? of course you can. just be open-minded, think things through before you say them. if you're not sure, just ask if it's considered offensive. the reason that many blacks get offended is when the opinion comes from a non-black person who says something shallow or uninformed. we can usually tell by the question, how it's worded, and utlimately the content of it if the person has had some interaction with black people.

bram_born84, perhaps there's something that you're "touchy" about in regards to being belgian or dutch-speaking. if you can tap into that, then you most likely can understand why blacks are so "sensitive"about certain issues.

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 04:11 PM
then what would u call it dear ol saz?

i aint gonna call you out on the board :tape:

just leave them alone they make good food :fiery:

Mrs. Peel
Aug 6th, 2003, 04:21 PM
did someone say coloured?

please hop into the 20th century, thanks.


cariosity, bram_born84 is from europe. they still use the term "colored", even in english-speaking countries like england, scotland and ireland

They sure do still use the term colored, my German housemate (has black boyfriend) just told me that her mother yelled at her that she didn't want any colored grandchildren!! lmfao


Bram...I'm not surprised that you don't have any colored friends. :wavey: It's not as if there are many around where you are?

Pureracket
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:09 PM
I think it's weird that I don't have any friends with Asian or African roots! :confused:

Check the origins of first human beings. ALL your friends have Afrikan roots. . . LOL!!!!!

Brαm
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:14 PM
Check the origins of first human beings. ALL your friends have Afrikan roots. . . LOL!!!!!
I'm talking about non-white ppl (see thread title) :p

decemberlove
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:24 PM
someone said something about having a biased education. i think EVERYONE receives a biased education. i cant tell you the number of times that implanted columbus as being a god in our head. every year in october, columbus, columbus, columbus, when in reality, the man was NO saint.

they like to hide the reality of the past. another reason its biased, is cos basically whoever wins in a war, gets to write the history. even in ancient history, whomever was defeated, their entire city was usually wiped out. so its hard to see it from their point of view.

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:37 PM
decemberlove....ok thats true but im not even AMERICAN! there is no reason why they shouldnt tell us the whole story regarding racism in the US...i hate to say it but its because they dont want to knock the white Americans. and thats the truth

gentenaire
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:40 PM
bram_born84, perhaps there's something that you're "touchy" about in regards to being belgian or dutch-speaking.

Actually, Dutch (Flemish) was considered a language for the lower classes. We're happy that we're now educated in our own language. This wasn't always the case.

There is something that used to hurt me a lot, something I couldn't help, yet I see lots and lots of people on these boards make comments about it and I still find it offensive.

skanky~skanketta
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:40 PM
gasp!are u saying that i'm a racist???:eek::sad:

girl, its like this. when the whites hate on the blacks, thats racism. but blacks hate on the white, thats prejudice. its the same thing here. its the indians that are always put down by this particular race :tape: here in malaysia. :sad: after all, thats what u told me on msn. how dare u change your mind! :mad: :mad: :fiery:

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:46 PM
Actually, Dutch (Flemish) was considered a language for the lower classes. We're happy that we're now educated in our own language. This wasn't always the case.

There is something that used to hurt me a lot, something I couldn't help, yet I see lots and lots of people on these boards make comments about it and I still find it offensive.

really? wow this thread is educating me a lot :)

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:48 PM
yay, everybody's being educated... that's a good thing!

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:49 PM
gasp!are u saying that i'm a racist???:eek::sad:

girl, its like this. when the whites hate on the blacks, thats racism. but blacks hate on the white, thats prejudice. its the same thing here. its the indians that are always put down by this particular race :tape: here in malaysia. :sad: after all, thats what u told me on msn. how dare u change your mind! :mad: :mad: :fiery:

so blacks cant be racist :confused:

LMAO! i told u WHAT on msn!!?! and what did i change my mind about?!?!

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:51 PM
yay, everybody's being educated... that's a good thing!

are u the teacher for sex ed? :tape: :drool:

nander
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:53 PM
May I suggest that 'coloured/colored' doesn't make sense since all people are in fact coloured - some pink, some brown, some black and various shades in between.
Interestingly I have never seen anybody who is actually 'white' except may in a faint or gravely ill.

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:54 PM
are albinos "white" then???

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:55 PM
are u the teacher for sex ed? :tape: :drool:
yes I am and I'm holding class in my bedroom. want to be my teacher's pet? :drool: :tape:

skanky~skanketta
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:55 PM
i told you that i was a racist and u said no vee, you're just prejudiced. were u just trying to be nice? :eek: :sad:

btw, reuben is a mix. :)

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:56 PM
yes I am and I'm holding class in my bedroom. want to be my teacher's pet? :drool: :tape:

does that mean i get to pet the teacher?? :tape::drool:

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:57 PM
does that mean i get to pet the teacher?? :tape::drool:
you get to 'grade' my 'papers', 'sharpen' my 'pencils' and 'beat' my 'erasers'. :drool:

gentenaire
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:58 PM
are albinos "white" then???

Their eyes are red.

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 05:58 PM
i told you that i was a racist and u said no vee, you're just prejudiced. were u just trying to be nice? :eek: :sad:

btw, reuben is a mix. :)

ok well i dont know u well enough to judge you, in England they bring you up to believe that if you make a certain type of comment against ANY race ur racist but that would make us all racists so im not so sure

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:00 PM
you get to 'grade' my 'papers', 'sharpen' my 'pencils' and 'beat' my 'erasers'. :drool:

dammit girl cant we just have sex?? :tape::p

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:00 PM
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :p

after all the work is done. :tape:

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:01 PM
Their eyes are red.

well they should stop smoking weed then :confused:

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:02 PM
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :p

after all the work is done. :tape:

how about i just work on you :drool: VAMOS! :p

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:03 PM
how about i just work on you :drool: VAMOS! :p
ok, but try not to get anything on my papers. my students will be mad and their parents would tell Principal Mase. I'd be punished... :tape: :tape:

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:04 PM
ok, but try not to get anything on my papers. my students will be mad and their parents would tell Principal Mase. I'd be punished... :tape: :tape:

naw Mase aint joining in this one, this time ur all mine :devil:

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:06 PM
ok but make sure you don't mess up my papers. LOL. :drool:

I like it when you get possessive. :hearts:

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:07 PM
"chills up that spine, that ass is mine..."

throw the papers on the floor....i want us to use ur desk dear teacher :devil:

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:14 PM
oh? you like it rough, then? You have detention for interrupting my class. :devil:

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:20 PM
so blacks cant be racist :confused:

LMAO! i told u WHAT on msn!!?! and what did i change my mind about?!?!

oh blacks can be racist as well. regardless of the basis of their reasons, my own relatives have been discriminatory at one time or another against whites, asians, hispanics and middle eastern people. my biggest pet peeve with minorities is when they think that every white person is out to prevent them from succeeeding. it's pathetic at times.

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:20 PM
whichever way you give it Cari, i like:devil:

interrupting ur class? i think thats a week of detention right there :devil:

decemberlove
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:26 PM
i told you that i was a racist and u said no vee, you're just prejudiced. were u just trying to be nice? :eek: :sad:

btw, reuben is a mix. :)


everybody is prejudice in their own way. its almost impossible to be brought up knowing how everyone else feels in the world, so its easy to stereotype people you know nothing about. it doesnt make you a racist.

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:28 PM
whichever way you give it Cari, i like:devil:

interrupting ur class? i think thats a week of detention right there :devil:
ooh... you're going for an in-my-bedroom suspension, huh? :devil:

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:30 PM
Actually, Dutch (Flemish) was considered a language for the lower classes. We're happy that we're now educated in our own language. This wasn't always the case.

There is something that used to hurt me a lot, something I couldn't help, yet I see lots and lots of people on these boards make comments about it and I still find it offensive.

that's a good correlation to our discussion, beggin beguine. based on my travels and interaction with european friends/acquaintances/fellow hitch hikers, i'm aware of the "tensions" between the netherlands and belgium and how language was used as form of enforcring superiority. it's quite similar to the relationship between france and quebec, though in my experience, their ties are much more amicable than that of the dutch and the flemish.

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:30 PM
ooh... you're going for an in-my-bedroom suspension, huh? :devil:

uhh huh :devil: and i dont think you should let me out of ur sight OR out of ur grip :devil:

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:32 PM
everybody is prejudice in their own way. its almost impossible to be brought up knowing how everyone else feels in the world, so its easy to stereotype people you know nothing about. it doesnt make you a racist.

no it doesn't make you a racist. it makes you ignorant, though. too often prejudice is deemed excusable if the parties involved "didn't know any better". there are times when that's applicable; there are times when it's not.

DunkMachine
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:33 PM
cariosity, bram_born84 is from europe. they still use the term "colored", even in english-speaking countries like england, scotland and ireland

bran_born84, you're not the only one and as inkyfan said, it all depends on where you live. it doesn't make you any more or less of a person whether you have friends of color or not. it's all circumstantial.

No they don't, this a retarded comment.

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:34 PM
uhh huh :devil: and i dont think you should let me out of ur sight OR out of ur grip :devil:
:tape: :tape:

I started out so good in this thread. then I went off the deep end. :o

gentenaire
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:37 PM
that's a good correlation to our discussion, beggin beguine. based on my travels and interaction with european friends/acquaintances/fellow hitch hikers, i'm aware of the "tensions" between the netherlands and belgium and how language was used as form of enforcring superiority. it's quite similar to the relationship between france and quebec, though in my experience, their ties are much more amicable than that of the dutch and the flemish.

I think you misunderstood. It's not the Dutch we were fighting against but the French language. The upper class always spoke French (still do, actually), lower class didn't understand French and that was abused by some. They'd laugh at the suggestion of having a uni with Dutch as main language. Dutch simply wasn't 'elevated' enough in their eyes, you can't discuss the classics in a low class language as Dutch.

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:44 PM
No they don't, this a retarded comment.

perhaps they don't in the area of netherlands where you live but i heard the term "colored" in europe as recently as last may when i was in germany and last october when i was in the uk and ireland. in my experience, they still use the term.

try using some tact next time. thank you.

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:47 PM
I think you misunderstood. It's not the Dutch we were fighting against but the French language. The upper class always spoke French (still do, actually), lower class didn't understand French and that was abused by some. They'd laugh at the suggestion of having a uni with Dutch as main language. Dutch simply wasn't 'elevated' enough in their eyes, you can't discuss the classics in a low class language as Dutch.

wow the whole Flemish vs French battle in Belgium is something that has always interested me. i speak to a Belgian who is like "you will need a lot of time to fully understand why we are so divided" :o

doloresc
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:48 PM
I think you misunderstood. It's not the Dutch we were fighting against but the French language. The upper class always spoke French (still do, actually), lower class didn't understand French and that was abused by some. They'd laugh at the suggestion of having a uni with Dutch as main language. Dutch simply wasn't 'elevated' enough in their eyes, you can't discuss the classics in a low class language as Dutch.

i did misunderstand but you helped clarify the tensions within your own bilingual country. very interesting, and this feeling of inferiority (largely imposed by the majority) by the flemish is identical to that of dark-skinned and fair-skinned blacks in america.

Josh
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:50 PM
perhaps they don't in the area of netherlands where you live but i heard the term "colored" in europe as recently as last may when i was in germany and last october when i was in the uk and ireland. in my experience, they still use the term.

try using some tact next time. thank you.

It's true, the term coloured is still being used in Europe. In Dutch for example, the word is "kleurlingen" and while it's being used less and less (because of the negative conotation) it doesn't generate the same kind of "outrage" as in America. In Dutch the word "neger" (******) is also still being used without having that negative meaning. Still, I cringe every time I hear someone say it.

Josh
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:52 PM
i did misunderstand but you helped clarify the tensions within your own bilingual country. very interesting, and this feeling of inferiority (largely imposed by the majority) by the flemish is identical to that of dark-skinned and fair-skinned blacks in america.

Actually, Dutch-speakers have always been in the majority in Belgium but French was spoken by the upper classes who used to have all the power. It's somewhat comparable to the colonial regimes where the majority of people were blacks, ruled by an all-powerful white minority.

decemberlove
Aug 6th, 2003, 06:57 PM
no it doesn't make you a racist. it makes you ignorant, though. too often prejudice is deemed excusable if the parties involved "didn't know any better". there are times when that's applicable; there are times when it's not.

ignorance is expected when parents make no attempt to teach their children about other cultures and when schools care only about getting their students to pass standardized tests.

i think EVERYONE has their own stereotypes misconceptions about a certain group. whether it be race, culture, country, religion etc. no one is perfect and w/o prejudice.

i think its sad that when children describe a person, they dont mention skin color. it is only until later in life, when they learn the emphasis of race that they use it as a descriptive term. see, if only we could teach our children differently.

decemberlove
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:06 PM
i did misunderstand but you helped clarify the tensions within your own bilingual country. very interesting, and this feeling of inferiority (largely imposed by the majority) by the flemish is identical to that of dark-skinned and fair-skinned blacks in america.


its not JUST blacks.

and while i feel for blacks, they didnt have it nearly as bad as the indians did. not even close.

DunkMachine
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:08 PM
perhaps they don't in the area of netherlands where you live but i heard the term "colored" in europe as recently as last may when i was in germany and last october when i was in the uk and ireland. in my experience, they still use the term.

try using some tact next time. thank you.

Racial discussions boils my blood a bit. I didn't know where you were coming from. I actually though you were using that example as a justification. But you're right, that word does get used alot even regarding non-blacks. For instance when they're talking about schools for immigrants and refugees, they call them black schools WTF :confused: .

I'm sorry for the way I reacted :wavey: Forgive me?

DunkMachine
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:09 PM
its not JUST blacks.

and while i feel for blacks, they didnt have it nearly as bad as the indians did. not even close.

What indians?

;) Amen sister

decemberlove
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:14 PM
What indians?

;) Amen sister


exactly. :sad:

DunkMachine
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:16 PM
It's true, the term coloured is still being used in Europe. In Dutch for example, the word is "kleurlingen" and while it's being used less and less (because of the negative conotation) it doesn't generate the same kind of "outrage" as in America. In Dutch the word "neger" (******) is also still being used without having that negative meaning. Still, I cringe every time I hear someone say it.

Common get your facts straight. "Neger" does not translate into ******.

negro = neger
****** = something completely different okay

Josh
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:20 PM
I thought negro and ****** had the same negative meaning in America?

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:35 PM
um, no, it doesn't.

negro was a precursor to or was interchangeable with colored, it was like the official classification at some point. for instance, my uncles and aunts older than my mom were classified as colored on their birth certificates. my mother's birth certificate says negro. my birth certificate says black. my kid's birth certificate, no matter what race I choose to marry, will say african-american or if I'm in a progressive state multi or biracial.

today, using negro or colored would make someone appear like they were a century behind, note my original post in this thread. I mean, it's like me calling someone Jewish a 'dirty *insult*', in reference to Jews taking over the factory jobs from the Irish and Italians in NYC after the Irish and Italians got better jobs. It's a bit outdated.

****** is just demeaning, across the board.

Mase
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:37 PM
naw Mase aint joining in this one, this time ur all mine :devil:

:sad:

You an eat all the peach yo uwant, but there's nothing quite like a bananna........

Zamboni
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:50 PM
I thought negro and ****** had the same negative meaning in America?
I thought the same but when we were discussing slavery at uni they told that wasn't true.

Anyway, the example you used of "kleurlingen" is not completely accurate either, cos that word isn't associated with slavery but with South Africa and apartheid (how sad that became an English word :sad: ).

Anyway, I do understand the tensions in America but you cannot demand that we Europeans completely follow that. Not as long as you keep thinking Belgium is the capital of the Netherlands :p

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:54 PM
LMAO@Belgium capital of the Netherland! :lol:

teheheheheh!!!!! someone has said that?:o

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 07:55 PM
I don't think anyone is demanding anything. It's about common courtesy. If you know something offends somebody and you still use it, it's hard to tell whether you're an asshole or you just don't give a damn about how others feel. I suppose that's what the ignore feature is for. :)

The posters of this board don't all live in Europe where something like this might be acceptable. There's certain things I wouldn't say on this board because I know it would offend a lot of people. It's an unspoken rule. Certain things you just don't say in order to keep the community peaceful.

And I know The Netherlands and Belgium are two different countries. the capitol of Netherlands is Amsterdam but the seat of gov't is The Hague while the capitol of Belgium is Brussels.

<-- history major.

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 08:00 PM
hey BG, :wavey:

:tape: @ the pillow talk, we got carried away.

ex hopman
Aug 6th, 2003, 08:01 PM
Well, I am not an American...but I have studied in the US...
After the history, the term of "colored/coloured" could be offensive to some people. If I was called/labelled as a colored, I would be offensive... Yes, US is a bit more way too sensitive about this racial issues... but it's a good thing too.

Let's just be careful with what we say...and of course what you say would mean different from what you mean, but we can all learn. :)

but this original post was...that he was simply saying
"he didn't have non-white friends."??

Move to the US! you can meet so many different people here!
What a diverse place this country is. :)

Peace!! :lol:

ex hopman
Aug 6th, 2003, 08:03 PM
I don't think anyone is demanding anything. It's about common courtesy. If you know something offends somebody and you still use it, it's hard to tell whether you're an asshole or you just don't give a damn about how others feel. I suppose that's what the ignore feature is for. :)

The posters of this board don't all live in Europe where something like this might be acceptable. There's certain things I wouldn't say on this board because I know it would offend a lot of people. It's an unspoken rule. Certain things you just don't say in order to keep the community peaceful.

And I know The Netherlands and Belgium are two different countries. the capitol of Netherlands is Amsterdam but the seat of gov't is The Hague while the capitol of Belgium is Brussels.

<-- history major.
:clap2:


<---- attempted to become a history major... and ended up studying "recreation". :)

decemberlove
Aug 6th, 2003, 08:04 PM
joy :kiss:

how was your trip?

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 08:18 PM
Joy i still wanna know all ur details :devil:

hey was it crop over there?

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 08:45 PM
LMFAO oh ur dialect (well u writing ur dialect:p) makes me smile :D reminds me of my family still out there....

the last time i went was........June 02...yes i could see the American Revolution coming then ;) and oh yes the men are sooooooo fine :o i had to be so strong...nuff bruthas over there worth getting to know :devil: oh lord that damn rum punch gets me everytime i go :o its soooooooo good!

im glad u had a good time baby :kiss:

Miss Thang
Aug 6th, 2003, 08:46 PM
Well I aint really got no friends right now cuz I aint workin. I usually make a buncha friends when I gotta job cuz I'm always scopin out the party peeps, kee-kee. :cool:

But when I did have friends they was mostly black and spanish folk. I had some white and chinese friends sometimes but it was more just talkin at work. For me I'm usually tight with my own peeps (blacks) cuz we like more of the same thing (goin to the same clubs and restaurants). I think that probably true for everybody up in this piece that most of their freinds is the same race as them. There might be a few peeps who gonna say they different but most of the white peeps gonna have mostly white friends, most a the black folk gonna have black friends and yoddy yoddy. :cool:

well, andy, the fact you'd never say it pretty much answered your question.

but to break it down, imagined being mocked for who you were and that you can't change. how damaging is that?

for instance, let me reach into my brown/blue eye study archives and use that example. say I have blue eyes (which is genetically impossible due to my chocolate skintone but if I were say Vanessa Williams' shade, it would be) and you have brown eyes. what if I told you that I was genetically superior... that I was meant to have a successful life while you're basically a piece of shit that'll never amount to anything. That because of your eye color, you're a liar, you steal and you are just good enough to clean my clothes, make my dinner and work in my fields. how would you feel? you'd feel a bit helpless, right? and of course, in order to keep you in a sort of condition of helplessness I need to use a word that will remind you of your plight in life. let's just for argument's sake say that word is ******.

oh, and on top of that, let me convert you to christianity and use the fact that God gave you brown eyes to my advantage. See, God gave you those brown eyes because you are a flawed creation. because I have blue eyes, I'm perfect.

so, see, over time, I won't even need to go through the trouble of reminding you that you have brown eyes. I can just say '******' and you'll know what I mean.

Preach girl! I am scared a you! :worship:

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 08:57 PM
im scared of cari too....ever been on the end of her temper?? dang gurl :eek:

Cariaoke
Aug 6th, 2003, 09:00 PM
:wavey: Miss Thang :kiss: :cool:

omg, babe, you are so fuckin' stupid! ROFLAFMASFASJDF! :tape: :tape: :o

and with that i'm on vacation, holla!

Miss Thang
Aug 6th, 2003, 09:08 PM
:wavey: Miss Thang :kiss: :cool:

omg, babe, you are so fuckin' stupid! ROFLAFMASFASJDF! :tape: :tape: :o

and with that i'm on vacation, holla!

Wassup girl! :wavey: Aint no thang sista-girl. I know I effin stupid and can u believe I actually me a college degree. Even my mama was like WTF? How that happen? :o :lol: :kiss:

*JR*
Aug 6th, 2003, 09:36 PM
um, about the whole brown eye blue eye thing. there's nothing superior about being blue-eyed cuz lighter eye colors are more prone to diseases. so i say my gooseshit brown eyes ROCKS!
No wonder my poor Lina, aka Baby Blue Eyes, keeps losing! :mad: BTW, Bram, not only did Belgians do black people wrong in the Congo, but on le Red Clay of Roland Garros! :devil:

*JR*
Aug 6th, 2003, 09:41 PM
All the black people I know detest the use of 'nigga'...

Sweets, I guess Cari never saw RB's posts on GT, huh? :p

SJW
Aug 6th, 2003, 11:20 PM
Miss Thang im not sure but i think she was calling me stupid LOL! see what i mean about her temper :rolleyes:

JR the clay.....RG thing.....let it go baby :p

and yea RB was one in a million dontcha think?? :p

Zamboni
Aug 7th, 2003, 08:03 AM
LMAO@Belgium capital of the Netherland! :lol:

teheheheheh!!!!! someone has said that?:o
yes :o

Zamboni
Aug 7th, 2003, 08:04 AM
I don't think anyone is demanding anything. It's about common courtesy. If you know something offends somebody and you still use it, it's hard to tell whether you're an asshole or you just don't give a damn about how others feel. I suppose that's what the ignore feature is for. :)

The posters of this board don't all live in Europe where something like this might be acceptable. There's certain things I wouldn't say on this board because I know it would offend a lot of people. It's an unspoken rule. Certain things you just don't say in order to keep the community peaceful.

And I know The Netherlands and Belgium are two different countries. the capitol of Netherlands is Amsterdam but the seat of gov't is The Hague while the capitol of Belgium is Brussels.

<-- history major.
I'll try to remember and not use the term colored anymore, don't worry ;)

doloresc
Aug 7th, 2003, 11:40 AM
Actually, Dutch-speakers have always been in the majority in Belgium but French was spoken by the upper classes who used to have all the power. It's somewhat comparable to the colonial regimes where the majority of people were blacks, ruled by an all-powerful white minority.

thank you, josh salah al-din. very informative and educational. so as a result of this "power struggle", is there tension between the flemish and the french in belgium or has it subsided over the decades?

doloresc
Aug 7th, 2003, 11:57 AM
Anyway, I do understand the tensions in America but you cannot demand that we Europeans completely follow that. Not as long as you keep thinking Belgium is the capital of the Netherlands :p

adnil, your usage of the word "demand" is what i was talking about in general messages on volcana's thread on the board's reaction to henin-hardenne's "controversial" comments. now i've travelled enough throughout europe to know that dutch people are multi-lingual and i applaud your nation for being so adept at learning many languages. that said, adnil, in saying: "you cannot demand that we europeans completely follow that", to most native english speakers, you've taken an aggressive stance when it wasn't necessary. (the same could be said of henin-hardenne's comments. in her french mind, she may have not meant to sound "aggresive" but that how it came out in english)

adnil, the tone of my writing (and probably cariosity's as well) was misconstrued, as you were thinking in dutch as you read our previous posts. we didn't "demand" anything. we just "hoped", we "expected". that's different from "demand" which means you are forcing people to do some thing. "hoping" and "expecting' basically means it would be nice if you did so BUT we are NOT forcing you to do it. we'd like that non-black people be more cognizant of these things but for me, as i did with bram_born84, i don't have high expectations especially if you don't live in america and are not aware of these issues with the black community.

doloresc
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:00 PM
Not as long as you keep thinking Belgium is the capital of the Netherlands :p

that was a joke, correct? i don't recall anyone saying that on this thread. den haag is the capital. :)

gentenaire
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:02 PM
Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands, even though the government and queen all reside in Den Haag.

doloresc
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:02 PM
To the person who said African-American is weird- what i find weird is Afro-Americian- the term which wasused before African American to describe black people....its like some here said- African is used to identify a people to a continent/people like everyone else is identified with a place and people- black Americans was stripped of that and only until recently didn't even want to be associated with being Afrcian because of the negative things associated with Africa- long, complicated and hurtful history- you can see by the number of 'terms' used to identify blacks in USA. Black is fine with me since I identify most with being a Caribbean- American :D

afro-american is a remnant of the civil rights movement. i never understood it nor did i ever embrace it.

doloresc
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:05 PM
Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands, even though the government and queen all reside in Den Haag.

oops. spoke too soon. :o if it'sany consolation, i've visited both amsterdam and den haag. i actually prefer calling it den haag; the hague sounds like it's a university or a museum. ;)

Josh
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:07 PM
thank you, josh salah al-din. very informative and educational. so as a result of this "power struggle", is there tension between the flemish and the french in belgium or has it subsided over the decades?

There are still tensions but they are mainly found at the political level. Politicians like to exploit the differences between the different regions and communities in Belgium to suit their own agendas. I daily life you hardly notice tension except maybe between nationalists on both sides.

Josh
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:08 PM
oops. spoke too soon. :o if it'sany consolation, i've visited both amsterdam and den haag. i actually prefer calling it den haag; the hague sounds like it's a university or a museum. ;)

I actually prefer the name 's-Gravenhage. :D ;)

doloresc
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:10 PM
I don't think anyone is demanding anything. It's about common courtesy. If you know something offends somebody and you still use it, it's hard to tell whether you're an asshole or you just don't give a damn about how others feel. I suppose that's what the ignore feature is for. :)

The posters of this board don't all live in Europe where something like this might be acceptable. There's certain things I wouldn't say on this board because I know it would offend a lot of people. It's an unspoken rule. Certain things you just don't say in order to keep the community peaceful.

exactly re: the "demand" issue. for example, it would be distasteful to visit germany and taunt the locals about auschwitz. everybody knows that but not everyone knows about the usage of the term "colored' around black americans.

i'm in full agreement about refraining from saying certain things that will upset people. i could be more more forthcoming about many things but i don't come here to get entangled in arguments with other posters. it's really an exercise in futility and furthermore, it's so rude.

gentenaire
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:12 PM
Actually Dolores, all the Germans I've met are more than willing to talk about the war and how wrong they were. Obviously, taunting them about it won't be appreciated.

doloresc
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:12 PM
I actually prefer the name 's-Gravenhage. :D ;)

flemish joke? way over my head, i'm sure. :o

gentenaire
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:15 PM
flemish joke? way over my head, i'm sure. :o

No, not a Flemish joke, just another name that is as unpronouncable to foreigners as 's Hertogenbosch.

Josh
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:15 PM
flemish joke? way over my head, i'm sure. :o

No joke lol. 's-Gravenhage is another name for Den Haag. Just like 's-Hertogenbosch (where the tennis tournament is played) is another name for Den Bosch.

doloresc
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:19 PM
Actually Dolores, all the Germans I've met are more than willing to talk about the war and how wrong they were. Obviously, taunting them about it won't be appreciated.

beggin beguine, i'm with you. over 5 decades of going to europe and making german friends (from both the east and west), i've had many a luminous discussion about hitler, etc. they are very approachable about the topic. black people are just as open to discuss our history in america it but as i told adnil, it can annoy us when we realize, time and time again, how little non-blacks know about us. they know of the tragedy of the 6 million jews that perished at the hands of the nazis but know only bits and pieces about us, and much of it is negative. so when we get irritated by what we perceive as "ignorant" questions/comments from non-blacks it's all because we feel slighted on many levels by non-blacks, particularly the white majority.

doloresc
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:20 PM
No joke lol. 's-Gravenhage is another name for Den Haag. Just like 's-Hertogenbosch (where the tennis tournament is played) is another name for Den Bosch.

haha. thank you! :) i always wondered about the name of that grass court tournament and now i know! :D

Josh
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:24 PM
's-Gravenhage translates to "Count's Hedge" while 's-Hertogenbosch translates to "Duke's Forest". So I suppose they wanted to get rid of the counts and dukes.

doloresc
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:26 PM
There are still tensions but they are mainly found at the political level. Politicians like to exploit the differences between the different regions and communities in Belgium to suit their own agendas. I daily life you hardly notice tension except maybe between nationalists on both sides.

i see. again very informative. i was just going to ask if there was an uproar when dominque monami married mr. van roost and now i don't have to. :o

i do have to aks though: have you seen (or heard of) a flemish person being ashamed of being flemish and trying pass themself off as french? i ask because it happens in america constantly. there's so much self-hate or embarassment about ethnicity here. :sad:

Josh
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:34 PM
i see. again very informative. i was just going to ask if there was an uproar when dominque monami married mr. van roost and now i don't have to. :o

i do have to aks though: have you seen (or heard of) a flemish person being ashamed of being flemish and trying pass themself off as french? i ask because it happens in america constantly. there's so much self-hate or embarassment about ethnicity here. :sad:

That used to happen a lot until mid last century. As Tine pointed out earlier, Dutch (or Flemish) was seen as a language for the lower classes, the peasants and the workers. French on the other hand was the language of the elite, the intellect, teh cultured. So in order to succeed you had to speak French. Many Flemings sent their children to French schools and started speaking French as to get more possibilities in life.

The perfect example of this is the city of Brussels. Brussels, the seat of teh government and capital of Belgium was originally a Dutch-speaking city but because it has always been host to several governments and rulers throughout history, there has always been a small French-speaking elite. After the independence of Belgium, Brussels became increasingly more French, because many Flemings started speaking French in order to obtain a better status. Nowadays, the majority of Brusselers(is that a word ;)) are of Flemish descent but almsot all speak and use French as their first language.

It took a long time before Dutch was seen as an equal language and even today I can say that some French-speakers (mainly those who are of Flemish descent) still see it as an inferior language.

gentenaire
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:36 PM
beggin beguine, i'm with you. over 5 decades of going to europe and making german friends (from both the east and west), i've had many a luminous discussion about hitler, etc. they are very approachable about the topic. black people are just as open to discuss our history in america it but as i told adnil, it can annoy us when we realize, time and time again, how little non-blacks know about us. they know of the tragedy of the 6 million jews that perished at the hands of the nazis but know only bits and pieces about us, and much of it is negative. so when we get irritated by what we perceive as "ignorant" questions/comments from non-blacks it's all because we feel slighted on many levels by non-blacks, particularly the white majority.

The difference is that with the Germans, the willingness to talk about it comes from the offending party, not the victims and I think that's quite unique. It's a shame that the talks about slavery should come from the black people alone. I could never despise the present day Germans for what happened because they're all more than willing to admit they were wrong (and it's not even 'they' who were guilty but their grandparents and even in the cases of the grandparents you might wonder how many of them knew what was going on) and that is very important. And I think that's part of the reason European countries can now live in peace. Had the Germans reacted in a similar manner as some white Americans do, "Okay, we may have been a bit wrong there, but stop whining about it, it's not that big a deal," there'd be a lot more animosity.

Dolores, we do learn about slavery in our history class, but obviously, since that happened far from here, it was not discussed as thoroughly as the World Wars. Our own grandparents all had to suffer during the war. We've heard the stories first hand from our own family and friends. So it's normal that we know a lot more about that than about what happened to the slaves.

*JR*
Aug 7th, 2003, 03:03 PM
its the indians that are always put down by this particular race :tape: here in malaysia. :sad: after all, thats what u told me on msn. how dare u change your mind! :mad: :mad: :fiery:
Can you two keep "Deah20" out of this, please! :devil: BTW, Sweets, re. the hand thing: it's a joke (admittedly stale by now :o). Troof be told, I mainly care that the prissy ump didn't consult those 2 linespeople with the best view of both players. ;)

Cassius
Aug 12th, 2003, 04:01 AM
I find it very funny that some people think Belgium is the capital of Holland.
In collage last year we had a quiz and one of the questions was about the capital of Holland, and I was the only one who said Amsterdam. My teacher and I had an argument- he said Rotterdam.
Then I pointed out Den Haag is also the capital, but he said Den Haag was the capital of Brussels!!!:eek::haha:
And he's a TEACHER in my collage (although he isn't a geography teacher, but you'd still expect someone to know the capital city of one of your closest neighbours).

Zamboni
Aug 12th, 2003, 08:59 AM
I find it very funny that some people think Belgium is the capital of Holland.
In collage last year we had a quiz and one of the questions was about the capital of Holland, and I was the only one who said Amsterdam. My teacher and I had an argument- he said Rotterdam.
Then I pointed out Den Haag is also the capital, but he said Den Haag was the capital of Brussels!!!:eek::haha:
And he's a TEACHER in my collage (although he isn't a geography teacher, but you'd still expect someone to know the capital city of one of your closest neighbours).
OMG :o
But Den Haag isn't 'also the capital', it's just where the government resides. ;)

doloresc
Aug 12th, 2003, 11:48 AM
I find it very funny that some people think Belgium is the capital of Holland.
In collage last year we had a quiz and one of the questions was about the capital of Holland, and I was the only one who said Amsterdam. My teacher and I had an argument- he said Rotterdam.
Then I pointed out Den Haag is also the capital, but he said Den Haag was the capital of Brussels!!!:eek::haha:
And he's a TEACHER in my collage (although he isn't a geography teacher, but you'd still expect someone to know the capital city of one of your closest neighbours).

i re-read the entire thread and didn't see where anyone posted that belgium was the capital of the netherlands. i suppose adnil was either joking when he/she said it the first time or it's some reference to another thread.

Zamboni
Aug 12th, 2003, 12:15 PM
i re-read the entire thread and didn't see where anyone posted that belgium was the capital of the netherlands. i suppose adnil was either joking when he/she said it the first time or it's some reference to another thread.
No-one in this thread said it, but it has been said by Americans :p

And I'm a she :)

doloresc
Aug 12th, 2003, 12:24 PM
No-one in this thread said it, but it has been said by Americans :p

And I'm a she :)

ok. i misunderstood. and, for the record, i'm actually surprised that the americans would even know what the netherlands was since the majority call it holland. you could fool them into thinking that the netherlands and holland were two different countries. :lol:

Josh
Aug 12th, 2003, 12:30 PM
Actually there's some truth in Belgium being the capital of the Netherlands. After all, the capital is supposed to be the centre of everything, an example for the rest of the country. Since we are very cool and innovative, we really do serve as an example for the Netherlands.

*Waiting*

;)

Zamboni
Aug 12th, 2003, 01:18 PM
*not being tricked* :p

DevilishAttitude
May 9th, 2005, 07:23 PM
BUMP.

It's not weird IMO.

I do have black and asian friends :)

harloo
May 9th, 2005, 07:27 PM
BUMP.

:smash: :retard:

kabuki
May 9th, 2005, 07:29 PM
BUMP.

It's not weird IMO.

I do have black and asian friends :)

You have friends?? :unsure:

DevilishAttitude
May 9th, 2005, 07:46 PM
Kabuki I do :) We all know you haven't so your probably jealous :sad:

And that reaction for bumping this thread harloo is because... :confused:

SelesFan70
May 9th, 2005, 08:43 PM
I just have imaginary friends, or virtual Internet friends. :D It's so much easier this way.

harloo
May 9th, 2005, 08:44 PM
You have friends?? :unsure:

:lol: :tape:

SilK
May 9th, 2005, 08:48 PM
I don't have one-raced friends... is that weird? Non of my friends are a pure blood of some kind! :shrug:

le bon vivant
May 9th, 2005, 08:57 PM
lol, it seemed like Bram just sunk deeper and deeper the more he posted in this thread... :o :tape:

SJW
May 9th, 2005, 09:04 PM
adnil: just so u know, we WILL get Van der Vaart :);)

didn't get him :sad:

VeeReeDavJCap81
May 9th, 2005, 09:30 PM
I think it's important to know people from a lot of different backgrounds. But one shouldn't beat themselves up if they haven't had the opportunity. Now, if they've had the opportunity and have avoided it, then that's a different story.

Brαm
May 10th, 2005, 09:54 AM
lol, it seemed like Bram just sunk deeper and deeper the more he posted in this thread... :o :tape:
What makes you think so? :confused:

"Sluggy"
May 10th, 2005, 10:37 AM
I never had many friends who were non-white; of course in hischool i had black and asian buddies. But my closest friend in France is from North Africa. He has a lot of white friends too.

Dana Marcy
May 15th, 2005, 05:56 PM
I think it's weird that I don't have any friends with Asian or African roots! :confused:

Why is it weird? The majority of human beings's friends are of the same race as themselves with many of them having exclusively same race friends. I bet if you took a poll of all the posters from this board, 9 out of 10 posters would say the same thing. That's life really. :shrug: