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View Full Version : But for the stabbing how many GS titles would Monica have won?


GoGoMaggie
Jul 31st, 2003, 01:58 PM
I know this has been discussed zillions of times on the board as well as everywhere where there is tennis. But the recent "Graf the best ever?" debate really made me again wonder about Monica's without-the-stabbing accomplishments. I know some of yous are sick and tired of those "what if" talks. But what the heck, this is one of the biggest "what if"s in tennis and should be kept on discussed for the many many years to come.

Personality, without the incident, Graf wouldn't be reckoned as great a player as she is and of course Monica would have got much more GS titles under her belt. Her best time as a tennis player was ruined by that German lunatic.

Hulet
Jul 31st, 2003, 02:00 PM
Thanks for starting a steffi vs seles thread. There was a scarsity of those type of threads in the GM recently. :rolleyes:

irma
Jul 31st, 2003, 02:01 PM
now I am in it anyway. steffi would have been seen as greater as she is now. since people would not have made excuses for 71 (of course she had won more but I stay with that number) titles she won

monica would have bashed for not playing doubles even if she had won 30 slams and people had claimed that she is not the greatest because of that. especially people who claim she was on her way;)

tyk101
Jul 31st, 2003, 02:07 PM
........no one will ever know.. perhaps, the number of slams between Steffi and MONICA would have been reversed

but we'll never know..

perhaps Monica would be still dominating now, if it weren't for the tragedy.

irma
Jul 31st, 2003, 02:09 PM
if monica had still dominated then tennis had been death. that had not been monica's fault but if the same player had dominated for 12 years with 3 or 4 slams a year then nobody had watched anymore;)

tennisjam
Jul 31st, 2003, 02:12 PM
...mistery :confused: ...I guess few more...

Paneru
Jul 31st, 2003, 02:38 PM
I totally respect all that Steffi has accomplished and she seems like a nice enough person. However, that being said, the fact of Monica's incident has always put Steffi with an aterisk(*) in my mind.
*Would she have done as much if Monica's incident never occured and what makes it worse(through no fault of Steffi's), the assalent was a professed Graf fan.

Bottomline,
Monica was a great champion.
Steffi was a great Champion.

Would Monica be greater than Steffi if not for the incident?
The world will never know. :sad:

jenglisbe
Jul 31st, 2003, 02:44 PM
Monica would have still had trouble winning Wimbledon, and Steffi may have won as many or more (draws would have been different if Monica had been in the game so Steffi wouldn't have faced McNeil in the 1st round).

Monica would certainly have won the French and Australian 1-2 more times (at least). Steffi was getting better, though, and would have done better than some people think.

I think Seles would have ended with 14-15 majors, and Steffi would have ended with 18 majors.

Jem
Jul 31st, 2003, 02:48 PM
We'll never know, and the debate is pointless. My personal belief is that Monica was on her way to becoming the all-time great of the game, but who knows? I think it's safe to say that Monica's Slam total would have been higher and Steffi's lower, but you never know. The whole affair was terrible, tragic and woefully handled by the powers that be in tennis, but worse things have happened. And I say that as one of Monica's all-time fans. She was the first player to really capture my attention since Chris Evert.

Volcana
Jul 31st, 2003, 03:15 PM
Eight.

She'd have gotten bored with tennis, retired at the end of 1992, and become a movie star. She never would have won OZ '96.

tennisvideos
Jul 31st, 2003, 03:17 PM
Once again I agree totally with you Jem. Monica was the first player to really capture my attention since Evert as well. I loved her game and her positive attitude and it was a tragedy of epic proportions what befell her.

There is little doubt that Monica would have racked up a number of French, US and Aussie Open titles, and I think she would have been able to crack it at Wimbledon. I mean she beat Martina there, one of the greatest grass court players in history, so she was certainly capable of beating anyone on grass.

I think that Monica was headed in the direction of being one of the greatest ever, and she is still a legend in my mind. Her record has been damaged though which is a crying shame. There are many great tennis historians, analysts, players and commentators who think that Monica was destined to be one of the all time greats but for the stabbing.

Anyway, we shall never know, and that makes me sad. I just hope Monica is happy with her life when she retires from tennis. She deserves the best, she has been so gracious considering all she has been through. An inspiration to me and millions more.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jul 31st, 2003, 03:18 PM
isnt this another of those "bullshit" threads I keep hearing so much about.

DA FOREHAND
Jul 31st, 2003, 04:45 PM
"There is little doubt that Monica would have racked up a number of French, US and Aussie Open titles, and I think she would have been able to crack it at Wimbledon. I mean she beat Martina there, one of the greatest grass court players in history, so she was certainly capable of beating anyone on grass."


There is doubt that she'd rack up several more French and A.O., but there is def. doubt about the US Open, and surely Wimbledon.

I think the Grand Slam totals wouldn't be as lopsided, but Steffi would probably have more. Monica missed 10 slams, Steffi won six of those. Take away those six and Steffi's total still stands at 16, I find it hard to believe she wouldn't have won at least 3 of the six which gives her 19. Any results after 95 US Open stand. I'd say Monica would have around 15-16 slams.

Even a fit and playing out of her mind Monica got her clock cleaned by Venus Williams (Acura Classic).
.

selesrules
Jul 31st, 2003, 05:01 PM
"There is little doubt that Monica would have racked up a number of French, US and Aussie Open titles, and I think she would have been able to crack it at Wimbledon. I mean she beat Martina there, one of the greatest grass court players in history, so she was certainly capable of beating anyone on grass."


There is doubt that she'd rack up several more French and A.O., but there is def. doubt about the US Open, and surely Wimbledon.

I think the Grand Slam totals wouldn't be as lopsided, but Steffi would probably have more. Monica missed 10 slams, Steffi won six of those. Take away those six and Steffi's total still stands at 16, I find it hard to believe she wouldn't have won at least 3 of the six which gives her 19. Any results after 95 US Open stand. I'd say Monica would have around 15-16 slams.

Even a fit and playing out of her mind Monica got her clock cleaned by Venus Williams (Acura Classic).
.

You're assuming that if Monica wasn't stabbed, that 1995 & 1996 would have played like they did after the stabbing. Monica with no stabbing could have dominated those years, she wouldn't have been making a "comeback". So Steffi won more then the 6 due to the stabbing, she won 10 (I'm taking off the 1999 one because it was too further down the line). Monica had a shot at dominating at least between 1993-1996 with no stabbing.

mauresmofan
Jul 31st, 2003, 05:05 PM
Monica would have burnt herself out and turned her attentions to Curling of which she would be 3 time Olympic Champion and 5 time world champion - I swear I saw it in the tea leaves this morning!

i_like_tennis
Jul 31st, 2003, 05:06 PM
this got me thinking
what would happen if Serena got stabbed tm?...
not that i want her off the tour or anything.....

jenglisbe
Jul 31st, 2003, 05:08 PM
selesrules - Has any player dominated for 5-6 years?? People are acting like Monica would have dominated from 1993-1996 like she was doing before the stabbing (which would mean she dominated 1991-1996). Navratilova had a time in the early 80s when Austin took over at #1, Graf had a period in the early 90s when she fell off, Hingis fell off in the late 90s, Serena and Venus are having physical problems now, etc.

The reality is that it's hard for players to dominate for years, and it's not really happened before (not in consecutive years). Other players catch up, bodies get injured/worn down, etc. It's unlikely Seles could have kept up her level - and that other players wouldn't have gotten better. Steffi got better as a player in the mid-90s, Mary Pierce began playing some good tennis, Hingis started coming along, Arantxa became better, Conchita became better, etc.

It's hard to know how draws would have played out to know who would have played whom, and when. Hell, Conchita might have won more majors (at least the French) had Seles not gotten stabbed (and draws been different or something).

Seles would have won more majors than she has now, no question...but it's hard to know how many more. There are too many other factors that come into play.

jenglisbe
Jul 31st, 2003, 05:13 PM
DA F - Steffi might have won 3 of those 6, and then she might have won some others she lost. If Seles were around, Steffi wouldn't have drawn Loru McNeil 1st round at Wimbledon and might have won the 1994 Wimbledon. Her back might not have been hurt at the Open, and Steffi might have won that Open. Who knows.

People act like Steffi gained from the stabbing - and she likely did - but the biggest benefactor from the stabbing was Arantxa. No way she wins the U.S. Open with both Seles and Graf in the draw.

CondiLicious
Jul 31st, 2003, 05:40 PM
She would have won 50 GS titles in her career and would have been going into this years US Open as defending Champion. Infact she never would have lost another tennis match again. If she hadn't have been stabbed the last time she would have lost would have been February 1993. Martina Hingis would have been a never-was-been, Venus and Serena would have given up long ago. Infact in some smaller tournaments Monica would have been the only person to enter cos the other players thought "why bother? we wont win!" Steffi would still be playing out of bitterness... Infact sometimes in the locker room just as she slammed her racket into the wall she could be heared to cry "I'll get you my pretty and your little dog too" cos you know... Monica loves her Ariel.

And Monica wouldn't have stopped there! She would have gone to Hollywood and would have won at least 2 Academy Awards already... One for her role in Shakespere In Love and the other for her touching performance in The Hours. She really would have been the in-demand actress of the moment. Oh and she would have had a record deal as well... Infact her debut album "Jagged Little Ball" would have sold almost 30 million copies. She would take regular vacations to Bali with her personal assistent Jennifer Capriati... She used to be a tennis player too but never bothered to come back cos she knew Monica would be too hard to beat.

And as for Monica's private life well... She would have always been very secretive about it but she would have been married to Brad Pitt by now but not before she had torrid trysts with George Clooney and Johnny Depp.

That's what I think would have happened and how many she would have won.

irma
Jul 31st, 2003, 05:45 PM
he you can say a lot about steffi but she was never a dog hater, this woman is known to take every dog home she sees walking on the street;)

CondiLicious
Jul 31st, 2003, 05:59 PM
he you can say a lot about steffi but she was never a dog hater, this woman is known to take every dog home she sees walking on the street;)


She wasn't gonna hurt the little dog. She was gonna kidnap it from Monica to make her cry.

mauresmofan
Jul 31st, 2003, 05:59 PM
:worship: :lol: :lol: :lol: DiVaMoNiCaSeLeS that was one of the best posts ever!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :worship:

irma
Jul 31st, 2003, 06:09 PM
She wasn't gonna hurt the little dog. She was gonna kidnap it from Monica to make her cry.

lol :lol:

Volcana
Jul 31st, 2003, 06:36 PM
this got me thinking
what would happen if Serena got stabbed tm?...
not that i want her off the tour or anything.....

Venus would hunt down whoever did it and kill them. If I'm around when she catches whoever it is, I'll help.

selesrules
Jul 31st, 2003, 06:55 PM
this got me thinking
what would happen if Serena got stabbed tm?...
not that i want her off the tour or anything.....

Venus would win the slams ending up with twice as many as Serena. Venus would be considered the greatest and Serena won't be.

disposablehero
Aug 1st, 2003, 12:59 AM
I know this has been discussed zillions of times on the board as well as everywhere where there is tennis. But the recent "Graf the best ever?" debate really made me again wonder about Monica's without-the-stabbing accomplishments. I know some of yous are sick and tired of those "what if" talks. But what the heck, this is one of the biggest "what if"s in tennis and should be kept on discussed for the many many years to come.

Personality, without the incident, Graf wouldn't be reckoned as great a player as she is and of course Monica would have got much more GS titles under her belt. Her best time as a tennis player was ruined by that German lunatic.

Of course, there is a wide variance of possibility. By the END of her career (which has not yet happened), it would be somewhere between 16 and 28, with 20-21 as the most likely scenario.

i_like_tennis
Aug 1st, 2003, 01:11 AM
Venus would win the slams ending up with twice as many as Serena. Venus would be considered the greatest and Serena won't be.
dont think so.......coz Venus will probably stay home
draw bathrooms and kictchens so that she can
recover from those so called "injuries".....:rolleyes:
and Kim will probably rule the world as it was once
ruled by Martina Hingis.........
not that i mind any European white girl ruling the world or anything..:)

CondiLicious
Aug 1st, 2003, 01:23 AM
not that i mind any European white girl ruling the world or anything..:)

and then in another topic:

coz those worshippers hate white people?...
anyways, it's not like Steffi played a lotta warm up events
to beat Martina to win RG

um... a pattern anyone????

G-Ha
Aug 1st, 2003, 01:34 AM
But for the stabbing, Monica would have more than 9 and Steffi fewer than 22. But, unlike some of the more delusional Seles fans, I don't think Monica would have gone on to win at least 3 of 4 slams per year indefinitely. I also don't see any strong evidence that suggests she would have inevitably won Wimbledon.

Keep in mind, Monica has been plagued by injuries over the last few years, and this is with over 2 years away from the daily grind of the tour. Had she been playing day in and day out without interruption, it's quite likely some of these injurious would have set in sooner, which may have limited her slam total.

stefanieforever
Aug 1st, 2003, 01:40 AM
I know this has been discussed zillions of times on the board as well as everywhere where there is tennis. But the recent "Graf the best ever?" debate really made me again wonder about Monica's without-the-stabbing accomplishments. I know some of yous are sick and tired of those "what if" talks. But what the heck, this is one of the biggest "what if"s in tennis and should be kept on discussed for the many many years to come.

Personality, without the incident, Graf wouldn't be reckoned as great a player as she is and of course Monica would have got much more GS titles under her belt. Her best time as a tennis player was ruined by that German lunatic.
But for the stabbing,I will never know what a greatest champion should be.
But for the stabbing,I will regard steffi graf as other excellent tennis players such as Martina Navratilova and Chris Evert.
But for the stabbing,I will never know how perfectly A human being could do in the face of such a difficult and discomfiture situation.
But for the stabbing,I will never regard steffi graf as the best and greatest athlete in the world.
But for the stabbing,I will never love steffi graf.

*JR*
Aug 1st, 2003, 02:11 AM
For their careers, Martina edged out Chrissie 18-16 in Slam singles titles. Steffi was a great adaptive athlete and wouldn't have been dominated, so I'll say Monica by that same kind of "score" in this rivalry.

fammmmedspin
Aug 1st, 2003, 02:34 AM
Anyone read the recent "Scientific American" article on alternate universes - if the universe is large enough and you go far enough you will find a universe identical to this one and if if you keep going long enough you find all the variants too. Out there somewhere are all the universes without German madmen and all the Monicas with 8-30 GS titles depending on what Monica and Steffi and the other players would have done next. Unfortunately they are all so far away you can never get to them.....

Hendouble
Aug 1st, 2003, 02:37 AM
Personally, I reckon it was a Russian assassin funded by the KGB on the grassy knoll, using a sniper's rifle supplied by the Cuban government and given inside information on the route by CIA traitors.

BTW, don't anyone take this the wrong way, but you've got to admire the audacity of i like tennis' posts. I've never seen anyone trying to get themselves banned as purposefully as he is doing.

disposablehero
Aug 1st, 2003, 02:43 AM
But for the stabbing, Monica would have more than 9 and Steffi fewer than 22. But, unlike some of the more delusional Seles fans, I don't think Monica would have gone on to win at least 3 of 4 slams per year indefinitely. I also don't see any strong evidence that suggests she would have inevitably won Wimbledon.


A) 3 of 4 indefinitely gives her a current career total of 49, through this years Wimbledon. I don't think anyone was suggesting that. Additional 3 out of 4 years after 1992 seems fairly logical, however. I will stick with my range, 16-28. Which indicates she would win until now on average somewhere between half a Slam and 2 Slams a year.

B) Conchita Martinez d Martina Navratilova

jenglisbe
Aug 1st, 2003, 03:09 AM
JollyRoger - Evert won 18 majors in her career

Why are people assuming Seles would have dominated for years and years (and stayed healthy)??

disposablehero
Aug 1st, 2003, 03:41 AM
Why are people assuming Seles would have dominated for years and years (and stayed healthy)??

Because she was 19. When did her health problems really start? Age 25. How about Lindsay's? 25 again. Mary? 25. Steffi? 25. Navratilova? 31. The Hingises of the world are the exception. Most players stay healthy until their mid 20s at least. Steffi won 10 Slams in the next 3 and a half years after Monica's attempted murder, but was winning far less Slams than Monica for a historically significant length of time. It stands to reason that there were lots of Slams out there for the asking if Monica wanted them.

stefanieforever
Aug 1st, 2003, 03:43 AM
JollyRoger - Evert won 18 majors in her career

Why are people assuming Seles would have dominated for years and years (and stayed healthy)??
because that hasn't been the fact for years and years.

disposablehero
Aug 1st, 2003, 03:46 AM
because that isn't the fact for years and years.

And we know exactly why. We've seen the pictures and read the news reports.

jenglisbe
Aug 1st, 2003, 03:46 AM
disposablehero - but those players you mention didn't start winning at as young of an age as Monica did. Look at the age of their starting to dominate in comparison to when they got injured and/or stopped dominating.

Graf's lack of success in the early 90s didn't have as much to do with Seles as people would like to think; Steffi had an even head-to-head with Monica in the early 90s, and most of Steffi's losses in the majors weren't to Monica (she lost to Novota, Arantxa, Martina N).
My point there is to show that Steffi's level of play dropped, but she got better in the mid-90s. It's hard for any player to sustain a dominating level of play...and it would have been hard for Seles, too.

disposablehero
Aug 1st, 2003, 03:53 AM
Probably between 13 and 18, and not more than 18. A higher number than 18 is low in term of probability, as, with the type of game that she had, would have developped all kind of injuries anyway.

18 is 10 more. 10 more in 10 years for a 3 Slam A Year Player who still hasn't retired yet. Steffi for the last time, wasn't winning even close to as often as Monica, was 4 and a half years older, developed all kinds of injuries (94,97) retired due to injury 2 months after turning 30 (99), and managed to win 11 more after that time. Which of these facts makes 10 more for Monica a "low probability"?

stefanieforever
Aug 1st, 2003, 03:58 AM
disposablehero - but those players you mention didn't start winning at as young of an age as Monica did. Look at the age of their starting to dominate in comparison to when they got injured and/or stopped dominating.

Graf's lack of success in the early 90s didn't have as much to do with Seles as people would like to think; Steffi had an even head-to-head with Monica in the early 90s, and most of Steffi's losses in the majors weren't to Monica (she lost to Novota, Arantxa, Martina N).
My point there is to show that Steffi's level of play dropped, but she got better in the mid-90s. It's hard for any player to sustain a dominating level of play...and it would have been hard for Seles, too.
A stabbing can interpret and substitute all struggle and all injury in a long professional career.

stefanieforever
Aug 1st, 2003, 04:04 AM
only the stabbing is injury and the other player's injurys in their career were not much important thing.
there were not any injurys could match seles' stabbing.

disposablehero
Aug 1st, 2003, 04:05 AM
disposablehero - but those players you mention didn't start winning at as young of an age as Monica did. Look at the age of their starting to dominate in comparison to when they got injured and/or stopped dominating.

Graf's lack of success in the early 90s didn't have as much to do with Seles as people would like to think; Steffi had an even head-to-head with Monica in the early 90s, and most of Steffi's losses in the majors weren't to Monica (she lost to Novota, Arantxa, Martina N).
My point there is to show that Steffi's level of play dropped, but she got better in the mid-90s. It's hard for any player to sustain a dominating level of play...and it would have been hard for Seles, too.

Helen Wills Moody- 15 years from first Slam to last
Margaret Court- 13 years
Martina Navratilova- 12 years
Steffi Graf- 12 years
Chris Evert- 12 years
Billie Jean King- 9 years (Didn't win first Slam til 22 years 8 months. Won her last at age 31)

Those are all the players who have won more Slams than Monica in Singles. There seems to be a pretty consistent theme as to length of Slam-Winning period. And it was typically shorter for the late bloomers than the early bloomers. 9 years for Monica is 1999. 12 years is 2002. 15 years is 2005, when Monica will be 31 years old. Every single one of those ladies won a Slam after her 31st birthday, except Steffi who won her last around her 30th, and blew her knees out after playing 17 years. Monica would be at 17 years in 2005. Steffi fans will rationalize til the end of time, but the historical pattern of every other great player shoots them down. As does the 1990-1993 pattern of the Monica-Steffi rivalry.

disposablehero
Aug 1st, 2003, 04:12 AM
You just can't compare with historical facts. The game has changed so much since Seles arrived on the tour in 88, the historical patterns don't mean much now.

How about the historical pattern of Steffi burning out after playing 17 years, and winning Slams over a period of 12 years starting in her late teens. Is that historical pattern too far in the past as well? Funny how it resembles Court so much.

stefanieforever
Aug 1st, 2003, 04:14 AM
why he can't ?
do you forget the stabbing can explain everying and every slam.

disposablehero
Aug 1st, 2003, 04:28 AM
You just take all kind of useless facts to make your point, and someone else could use some other facts or patterns to prove the oppositive.


And when exactly are they going to begin doing that?

Incidentally, I don't consider Monica winning most Slams/Steffi winning far fewer Slams a particularly useless fact.

TNT96
Aug 1st, 2003, 05:17 AM
At least 6 more titles. Definitely the French & Aust. I would say one more US Open at least too. It is a real shame but we will never know.

stefanieforever
Aug 1st, 2003, 05:56 AM
the premise of that is seles to try all her best to struggle on the court ,not just to make some conferences and interviews.

bello
Aug 1st, 2003, 07:07 AM
She would have dominated at least til 1997, i think some of you are forgetting just how dominant and feared Monica was. She would have won many slams and been best in history!