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selesrules
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:31 PM
Similarly, to say that Martina Hingis was a "transitional" player between Graf and Venus Williams ignores the fact that, for all you can prove from results so far, it is not Hingis but Venus who is transitional: Venus was the transitional player between Hingis's falling apart with injuries and the rise to the top of Serena Williams.

OUCH! Well, Venus fans tend to put down Martina by saying that she dominated when there was no competition, Graf was struggling with injuries, Venus still hasn't come into her own. Well, I'd like to hear your opinion on that quote from the Bob Larson article.

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:34 PM
He can probably have a point in that, since it was Serena who won first. Didn´t really think about it that way.

irma
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:35 PM
"And so I wake in the morning and step outside
And I take a deep breath and I get real high
And I, scream from the top of my lungs, WHAT's GOING ON?!"

that's what how feel about this board right now;)
it seems like a curse always when I feel bad people start about greatest ever threads and I promise not again and I end up in it anyway for days, days and days;)

Pureracket
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:38 PM
Well, let's see how many Williams fans Selesrules can railroad into a fight today. :)

Spirit
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:43 PM
"And so I wake in the morning and step outside
And I take a deep breath and I get real high
And I, scream from the top of my lungs, WHAT's GOING ON?!"

That's got to be one of the most appropriate quotes in the history of all message boards everywhere.

selesrules
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:45 PM
Well, let's see how many Williams fans Selesrules can railroad into a fight today. :)

:angel:

The thing is, with this thread it's a win-win situation for me:

If the Venus fans are annoyed and debate, I would have caused what I want :D

BUT, if they ignore the thread, it means that the Venus fans have no defense because the quote is right :D

BRILLIANT! :devil:

dekker
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:55 PM
:angel:

The thing is, with this thread it's a win-win situation for me:

If the Venus fans are annoyed and debate, I would have caused what I want :D

BUT, if they ignore the thread, it means that the Venus fans have no defense because the quote is right :D

BRILLIANT! :devil:

That comment definately is true. Hingis DOMINATED. Venus dominated summer 2001/2002. Hingis was dominating for years and was CONSISTENT.

TonyP
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:08 PM
I truthfully think any player who wins four grand slams is more than a transitional player.

Venus has accomplished a lot, there is no denying that.

That Martina accomplished a lot and actually, did more than Venus has so far, is not even open to debate.

I think the real problem here is trying to establish "eras" which are mostly just story lines for the journalists.

There are brief periods of domination in the sport, but then something usually happens and that domination ends. I expect Serena's domination to end, as well. But it is hardly an "era" for any of them.

Did Graf really have an era? Yes, but it will be foreever marred by the Seles stabbing, which propelled Graf back to number one and eliminated for more than two years not just her biggest opponent, but a woman who was pretty much dominating her.

Actually, everyone's accomplishments are what they are. Bob Larson is correct, that some have always tried to diminish Hingis' accomplishments, saying she didn't face stiff competition.

The truth is, Martina and Venus are the exact same age and turned pro within weeks of one another. Martina's game matured a lot faster and she got very big results a lot faster than Venus did.

Venus is still around for now and Martina is not, but Martina has still piled up a much more distinguished record of achievement than has Venus in less time on the tour than Venus has spent there. Remember, Martina missed about half of 2002 and hasn't played at all in 2003.

The part that bothers me the most is that some of those who support Venus seem to be on a never ending quest to diminish Martina's record.

I think that's because Martina always stood in the way of the Williams sisters rise in the sport. IN many ways, while Martina played part of 2002, her old prediction proved to be rather accurate.

Asked if the Williams sisters would get to the absolute top, she said maybe, after she retired. That, considering her injury problems in 2002, proved pretty prophetic.

lizchris
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:13 PM
Venus still have years to go before she retires. She said that she plans to play until her early thirties. Martina will most likely never play again.

BTW, Matina was still an active player when Venus and Serena got to number one, she wasn't correct that they would be number one when she retired.

Paneru
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:31 PM
Venus is still around for now and Martina is not, but Martina has still piled up a much more distinguished record of achievement than has Venus in less time on the tour than Venus has spent there. Remember, Martina missed about half of 2002 and hasn't played at all in 2003.

Also remember that unlike Martina Venus has a consistent rival in Serena. Venus has made it to a vast majority of finals in her last four years and the only person who has been beating her on a consistent basis in the slams is Venus in the finals. If not for Serena Venus would more than likely have over ten slams as we speak.

Definig someone's greatness IMO depends on the quality of competition as much as the number of titles they've won. Hence my thing with Graf.
Great champion one of the best of all time, but what would've had Monica never been stabbed? Monica's situation had an impact on Graf's career in helping her to attain all she has with Monica's troubles stemming from the incident.

So, Martina is a great player and has won so much. However, in comparison to Venus and the difference between what Hingis faced competition wise from the field than Venus coming up against a Serena only beginning to tap into what she could ultimately become as well as Venus. Hingis got competition from Venus, Serena, Capriati, as well as others and wilted under the pressure instead of figuring out a way of atleast challenging. Hence all of Mac's comments about Henin-Hardenne in relationship to Hingis and facing the same things as Hingis but working harder to find a way despite the lesser physical attributes. Venus still has years to go and continues to play despite Serena having the upper hand at the moment. She has left and is willing to stay.

I'd have more respect for Hingis(titles aside)
if she hadn't ran instead of working harder because the competition was tougher and certain plaers were starting to tap into their abilities and she wasn't winning as easily as she was use to.

TonyP
Jul 30th, 2003, 05:21 PM
All the what ifs in the world don't matter. Venus and Martina were rivals and Martina finished ahead of Venus during their playing days in every category, including head to head competition.

And you can believe anything that you want about why Martina quit. Her injury problems are well documented, unlike about 90 percent of the injuries the Willies have claimed over the years.

McEnroe's opinion means nothing to me. Martina is not hanging around the sport, she is for the most part off doing other things with her life that she has wanted to do, like continuing her education and pursuing her love of show jumping horses. McEnroe will never do anything else of significance, because tennis is the only thing he is about.

treufreund
Jul 30th, 2003, 06:07 PM
THIS MESSAGE BOARD has tried to rewrite history. Many people on this board actually state that Hingis just got scared and quit the game. That is ridiculous propaganda. The FACT IS WELL-DOCUMENTED that her health does not allow her to play. Stop trying to change the facts people. :rolleyes:

Sanneriet
Jul 30th, 2003, 06:16 PM
Why is this turning into a Martina bashing thread? Martina had two surgeries on her ankles, which supports the seriousness of her injuries. MacEnroe is a jerk.

Professional athletes never know how long their careers will last. I think that Martina did make the most of her career and should never be regarded as transitional. Venus still has the possibility to add to her career and also should not be considered transitional. No one can do anything about the "quality" of the competition they face. Graf is not responsible for what happened to Seles, Serena is not responsible for Venus' not being able to beat her. Venus can do things to improve her game to beat Serena. That is her challenge now.

persond
Jul 30th, 2003, 06:22 PM
All the what ifs in the world don't matter. Venus and Martina were rivals and Martina finished ahead of Venus during their playing days in every category, including head to head competition.

And you can believe anything that you want about why Martina quit. Her injury problems are well documented, unlike about 90 percent of the injuries the Willies have claimed over the years.

McEnroe's opinion means nothing to me. Martina is not hanging around the sport, she is for the most part off doing other things with her life that she has wanted to do, like continuing her education and pursuing her love of show jumping horses. McEnroe will never do anything else of significance, because tennis is the only thing he is about.


You're so right, TonyPee, "all the what ifs in the world don't matter". However, the fact is Venus IS still actively playing, albeit, injured at the moment, and Martina is retired. Also worth noting is that although Martina's injury is well documented, there is nothing to ascertain or negate her abililty to "return" to the tour, and that's where the questions are. "Are/were her injuries career threatening...???" Or has she, as some suggested been "bested" and refuses to try and compete again. Never again will she enjoy those easy roads to the finals that she so brazenly treaded during her years of domination.

And, as far as the injuries are concerned. Venus and Serena's game is "proned" to produce injuries merely through the mechanics and power they produce. So, they'll always be bothered with the prospect of injuries. However, even with that said, they will continue to make history with every game they play. Surely the final script isn't written, but suffice it to say they'll be forever remembered for what they've accomplished so far. Their legacy has already been written.

selesrules
Aug 7th, 2003, 01:27 AM
I think it's a shame that Venus fans didn't stand up for Venus. It just proves that they have no defense. :wavey:

Venus Forever
Aug 7th, 2003, 01:32 AM
I think it's a shame that Venus fans didn't stand up for Venus. It just proves that they have no defense. :wavey:

We have a lot better things to do then play with you. ;)

Rocketta
Aug 7th, 2003, 01:35 AM
I think it's a shame that Venus fans didn't stand up for Venus. It just proves that they have no defense. :wavey:

or they think debating you on an issue is like talking to that pile of dung with flies in the dog pen. You know you talk and talk but its still a pile of shit with flies on it. :o The question is do we think your the dung or the flies?? ;)

Ballbuster
Aug 7th, 2003, 01:46 AM
I'm with KabuKe and Persond Here.

Martina QUIT!!!!

Say what you will and believe what you want. She QUIT because she knew she would never win against the Williams. She couldn't take not being No. 1. Instead of improving her game and getting better she balked.

All injuries aside....the biggest injuries were the one's The Williams put in her big Head.

Good Riddance.

banana
Aug 7th, 2003, 04:13 AM
How can u saywith conviction that Martina quit coz of not being able to beat the top 4 players? She has an injury which prevents her fom training and exerting herself phsically, she is unable 2 compete at at competitive level! Like all top players Martina has a huge ego: If she wasn't at the top of the game she doesn't wanna play! even Davenport and Capriati have expressed similar feelings about not being in the top 3 nemore!

TylerDurden
Aug 7th, 2003, 04:40 AM
I'm with KabuKe and Persond Here.

Martina QUIT!!!!

Say what you will and believe what you want. She QUIT because she knew she would never win against the Williams. She couldn't take not being No. 1. Instead of improving her game and getting better she balked.

All injuries aside....the biggest injuries were the one's The Williams put in her big Head.

Good Riddance.

LOL, Hingis worried more about Dementieva and Davenport than the Williams sisters.

Venus Forever
Aug 7th, 2003, 04:52 AM
LOL, Hingis worried more about Dementieva and Davenport than the Williams sisters.

This is true.

She would have to worry about them first, because she wouldn't even reach far enough to face Venus and Serena. :lol:

Nice try. ;)

monicain
Aug 7th, 2003, 05:29 AM
Also remember that unlike Martina Venus has a consistent rival in Serena. Venus has made it to a vast majority of finals in her last four years and the only person who has been beating her on a consistent basis in the slams is Venus in the finals. If not for Serena Venus would more than likely have over ten slams as we speak.

Also remember that unlike Venus, Martina has a consistent rival in Serena. Martina has made it to every single finals in her last six Oz and the only persons who has been beating her more than once are JCap and Davenport in the GS finals. If not for JCap and Davenport, Martina would more than likely have over ten slams as we speak.

Venus WILLIAMS v Serena WILLIAMS

1998 Australian Open Venus WILLIAMS 7-6(4) 6-1
1998 Rome Clay Venus WILLIAMS 6-4 6-2
1999 Key Biscayne Venus WILLIAMS 6-1 4-6 6-4
1999 Grand Slam Serena WILLIAMS 1-6 6-3 3-6
2000 Wimbledon Venus WILLIAMS 6-2 7-6
2001 U.S. Open Venus WILLIAMS 6-2 6-4
2002 Miami Hard Serena WILLIAMS 2-6 2-6
2002 Roland Garros Serena WILLIAMS 5-7 3-6
2002 Wimbledon Serena WILLIAMS 6-7(4) 3-6
2002 U.S. Open Serena WILLIAMS 4-6 3-6
2003 Australian Open Serena WILLIAMS 6-7(4) 6-3 4-6
2003 Wimbledon Serena WILLIAMS 6-4 4-6 2-6
Serena WILLIAMS (USA) leads 7 : 5

Martina HINGIS v Serena WILLIAMS

1998 Key Biscayne Martina HINGIS 6-3 1-6 7-6
1998 Manhattan BeachMartina HINGIS 6-4 6-1
1999 Key Biscayne Serena WILLIAMS 4-6 6-7
1999 Rome Clay Martina HINGIS 6-2 6-2
1999 Manhattan BeachSerena WILLIAMS 3-6 5-7
1999 US Open Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 6-7
2000 Los Angeles Serena WILLIAMS 6-4 2-6 3-6
2000 Canadian Open Martina HINGIS 0-6 6-3 3-0 Retired
2001 Sydney Martina HINGIS 6-4 7-5
2001 Australian Open Martina HINGIS 6-2 3-6 8-6
2001 U.S. Open Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 2-6
2002 Scottsdale Serena WILLIAMS 1-6 6-3 4-6
2002 Miami Serena WILLIAMS 4-6 0-6
Serena WILLIAMS (USA) leads 7 : 6

Seems like Venus is not such a threat to Serena, not to mention Rivalry.So she was always there but never lift up a single trophy this lately.

Midnite Surfer
Aug 7th, 2003, 08:19 AM
Hingis never got the grand slam now did she? Serena did. And Martina's slam drought began way before her injuries set in. She was still winning tier 1's before the injury and after her last slam. And to say that the Williams reign which it definitely is, could not have happened until Hingis's retirement is moronic. It had its beginnings in 1999 when Serena went on her 16 match winning streak which included the Lipton. It picked up again in 2000 when Venus won Wimbledon , the US Open and everything in between. It was a 34 match win streak or something like that. Hingis was still winning her share of tournaments and held the number one ranking but she wasn't dominating the slams at all. In fact, three of Hingis's five slams were in the same year. I don't know if that's good or bad. I think it backs up the claim of her being a transitional player. Venus successfully defended the two biggest slams in the sport. No easy task. And even though Venus and Martina turned pro at roughly the same time, Martina played a lot more than Venus did back then and Martina played the juniors which Venus and Serena did not. So I would say the Williams sisters have learned a lot very quickly considering their relatively short time in competition.

hingis-seles
Aug 7th, 2003, 10:28 AM
I think the reason certain Venus fans try to put down Martina's record is because they are very insecure, because their favourite has an inferior record in comparison to Martina.

moby
Aug 7th, 2003, 10:38 AM
bingo

tennisjam
Aug 7th, 2003, 12:58 PM
Hingis simply dominated the tour that was becoming more and more competitive and in a very consistant way...

...and she certainly had to face more difficult competition than Graf ever did :rolleyes: ...exept when Monica was around maybe :angel: ...

tennisjam
Aug 7th, 2003, 01:10 PM
Martina once said:"I am a player, not a worker..." so it says a lot about her will to improve her fitness...

I agree she never pushed her limits and worked hard as some other players...but that was her choice even if it can be considered as the easy one...

She was simply always ahead of everyone and had a large margin but as the gap was becoming smaller, she didn't try enough to maintain that margin as long as possible...

but as she said, she was a player...

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 7th, 2003, 01:56 PM
Martina once said:"I am a player, not a worker..." so it says a lot about her will to improve her fitness...

I agree she never pushed her limits and worked hard as some other players...but that was her choice even if it can be considered as the easy one...

She was simply always ahead of everyone and had a large margin but as the gap was becoming smaller, she didn't try enough to maintain that margin as long as possible...

but as she said, she was a player...


exactly. when the competition improved what did martina do? not enough. she was spoiled and lazy. she relied too much on talent and not enough on hard work. Look at justine, shes just as small as martina and has a better serve and is far more athletic and has stamina like a bull. Justine makes martina look stagnant and wasteful. There was no reason why martina could not transform herself like justine did.

However martina did have a great career and will be remembered. She did miss out on the grandslam and never winning the french, the tournament everyone thought she would dominate, probably feels like a thorn in her side. I mean how can that tournament not matter to her when she broke down in tears after losing to graf?

Serena has eclipsed martina and passed her by while venus still trails martina, though venus still has time to accomplish more.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 7th, 2003, 02:12 PM
"Did Graf really have an era? Yes, but it will be foreever marred by the Seles stabbing, which propelled Graf back to number one and eliminated for more than two years not just her biggest opponent, but a woman who was pretty much dominating her."

BULLSHIT!! If Steffi's career ended April 93, she'd still be among the greats 11slams 71 titles Olympic Gold, and THE GRAND SLAM! Not the Serena slam, no the Navratilova Slam, but THE GRAND SLAM all four majors in the same calendar year.

Hingis was a great player, no doubt. She remains out of the game because as she stated. "I can no longer compete at the highest levels" ..."When you're used to being at the top....." yadda yadda yadda. Ironic that the woman she called old and slow managed to comeback from career threatning injuries/surgeries and kick her ass!

Miss you Martina, there's still a place for you in tennis, it just won't be the #1 spot.

TonyP
Aug 7th, 2003, 02:16 PM
What I've never understood was, how Martina could have been both "lazy and spoiled" and played too much at the same time.

Martina to date played 187 more matches than Venus did, and Martina missed much of last year and hasn't played at all this year.

That's 187 more singles matches alone. That's the equivalent of about three years worth of singles play. Her doubles accomplished also far overshadowed Venus. I believe Venus has something like 16 doubles titles total. Martina has 36. That would be somewhere between 80 and 90 more doubles matches than Venus played, just in the tournaments Martina won.

So, in addition to all the singles matches, Martina played a lot more doubles matches. Remember, according to her critics, Martina was the one who "manipulated" the ranking system by playing so much. Remember?

Martina is also the one who only retired twice from singles matches in her entire 571 match career and she also never once gave her opponent a walk over. If she was scheduled to play a singles match, she showed up and played. She had a lot of respect for the fans. She stayed out there in the Chase Championship finals in '96 for a fifth set, even though she was cramping in the legs so badly she could barely stand up.

She didn't retire while down 0-3 or 0-4 or 0-5. She said "I didn't think you were supposed to quit if its a final."

Some other players we've known do pull out, final or not.

But again, it was Martina who was "lazy and spoiled."

As to Justine's accomplishments, we'll see if she exceeds Martina's. So far, she has not, not by a long stretch. And Justine is already 21.Unless she wins the grand slam next year, it is unlikely that she'll accomplish more in tennis than Martina did at the same age.

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 7th, 2003, 02:17 PM
I agree again. Martina could come back and play thats not in question but she would no longer be a threat for the top spot or for grandslams. However since only about six women at the most are ever in a realistic spot to win a grandslam she comes across as petty with a "oh if I cannot be number one and win slams then I will not play." Well if everyone thought that way there would be no wta tour.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 7th, 2003, 02:21 PM
justine will not surpass Martina. Winning percentage is a better statistic.

tonyp, so what you're saying is before we can say Venus hasn't accomplished as much as Martina, she'd have to have played as many matches.

Cybelle Darkholme
Aug 7th, 2003, 02:24 PM
What I've never understood was, how Martina could have been both "lazyand spoiled" and played too much at the same time.

Martina to date played 187 more matches than Venus did, and Martina missed much of last year and hasn't played at all this year.

That's 187 more singles matches alone. That's is the equivalent of about three years worth of singles play. Her doubles accomplished also far overshadowed Venus. I believe Venus has something like 16 doubles titles total. Martina has 36. That would be somewhere between 80 and 90 more doubles matches than Venus played, just in the tournaments Martina won.

So, in addition to all the singles matches, Martina played a lot more doubles matches. In fact, Martina was the one who "manipulated" the ranking system by playing so much. Remember?

Martina is also the one who only retired twice from matches in her entire 571 match career and she also never once gave her opponent a walk over. If she was scheduled to play a singles match, she showed up and played. She had a lot of respect for the fans. She stayed out there in the Chase Championship finals in '96 for a fifth set, even though she was cramping in the legs so badly she could barely stand up.

She didn't retired while down 0-3 or 0-4 or 0-5. She said "I didn't think you were supposed to quit if its a final." Some other players were know do pull out, final or not.

But again, she was "lazy and spoiled."

As to Justine's accomplishments, we'll see if she exceeds Martina's. So far, she has not, not by a long stretch. And Justine is already 21.


Yes she accomplished a lot. she has done a lot. The sport is not the same as it was in 1997 when martina won over half her slams. The competition is deeper than it was then. This is one of the reasons why martina left. With her injury she couldn't compete with the top girls and even the mid level girls were giving her a hard time. So she left.

However before that she had the opportunity to improve her game and her athleticism. She didn't do it. She would have won that 2002 aussie open final if she had been in better shape mentally and phyisically. She wasn't. She lost.

OH and we are talking about martina not venus but for the record I believe the same thing about venus as well. Talented but spoiled and lazy. Serena: Not as talented but a hard worker who transformed herself to compete with her older and better sister who as of late is still older but not better.

When I say martina and venus are lazy and spoiled I mean that for they relied too much on their talent and for so long that was enough to make them the best but when the time came to step up the level of their game they hit a wall because they were not used to having to go the extra mile and a half. For them tennis came easy it was like breathing and when venus made martina huff and puff she faltered just like venus faltered when serena made her huff and puff. However the difference is that venus still has a chance to change and improve while martina sadly does not.

TonyP
Aug 7th, 2003, 05:57 PM
How does anyone "Know" why Martina left the sport, except through Martina's own words. Do you have the power to read minds?

Martina left the sport because of chronically inflammed tendons on the bottom of her heels. The more she played, the worse they get. There was no medical remedy for the problem. She'd been playing with painful feet for two years. At least, that's what Martina said. Does anyone know differently and if so, how do you know this.

And remember, we are talking about the foot problems, not the ankle surgeries.

And as for the 2002 Australian Open, she would have won had she been in better shape? I guess you forget that she'd missed the last part of 2001 due to ankle surgery. That she won Sydney and got to the finals of trhe AO wasn't a bad performance for someone who had three ligaments in her ankle tear.

maccardel
Aug 7th, 2003, 06:04 PM
I don't understand. How can you call it a cake when you haven't even mixed it up yet?

Venus is still playing and so is Serena, Hingis is gone!!!!!!

She has thrown in the towel....let it go. when all is said and done then we can talk until then we cannot say that either venus had an era until the era actually ends....then you are welcomed to look back on the "eras"

persond
Aug 7th, 2003, 07:24 PM
I think the reason certain Venus fans try to put down Martina's record is because they are very insecure, because their favourite has an inferior record in comparison to Martina.


And, I, my friend think you're out of your mind. Why in hell would anyone think that Martina with 5 Slams and 40 or more titles is not worthy of praise. Jealousy...??? To be sure, Venus is still actively playing and may certainly surpass Martina's records of Slams and tourney titles. So, why are Venus' fans jealous???? In fact, Venus may very well win this years USOpen and tie Martina for number of slam wins. I think you're very foolish to state such bullshit, in fact, I'm now convinced that you are. But, if Venus never wins another title, she'll go down in history as one of the winningest (if that's a word) Sisters in tennis history, as well as one of the few African American women to achieve success on the WTA tour. Put that in your pipe and smoke it...!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

persond
Aug 7th, 2003, 07:37 PM
How does anyone "Know" why Martina left the sport, except through Martina's own words. Do you have the power to read minds?

Martina left the sport because of chronically inflammed tendons on the bottom of her heels. The more she played, the worse they get. There was no medical remedy for the problem. She'd been playing with painful feet for two years. At least, that's what Martina said. Does anyone know differently and if so, how do you know this.

And remember, we are talking about the foot problems, not the ankle surgeries.

And as for the 2002 Australian Open, she would have won had she been in better shape? I guess you forget that she'd missed the last part of 2001 due to ankle surgery. That she won Sydney and got to the finals of trhe AO wasn't a bad performance for someone who had three ligaments in her ankle tear.


TonyPee,

No one "professes" to "know" what's in Martina's mind, no more than you do. So, I fail to see your point. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that many athletes play with and through pain and tendonititis Martina acknowledges. You, yourself said she played with the pain for over two years, but, during those years she was more successful than of late and gives rise to the observation that she "chose" to end her career, rather than it be a matter of the injury. She no longer was able to compete at the level to remain no.1, and that's why she quit. I dare say, had she won the Aussie Open 2002, we would still see her playing today. Why??? Because she would have felt she still could "compete". That, my friend is the crux of the matter. However, as you say, no one really knows but Martina...!!!!

DA FOREHAND
Aug 7th, 2003, 07:39 PM
Martina has said in a few interviews that she wouldn't return just to be an also ran. she's used to being at the top.

TonyP
Aug 7th, 2003, 07:47 PM
Yes, she said that, but she would not be in that situation if she were not experiencing the foot problems. So, the foot problems are the cause of her retirement.

And for Williams fans to be critical is the most amazing thing to me, for the Willies by their own admission NEVER play through any kind of pain.


So, Williams fans, are you now saying that Venus and Serena should play in pain, because other players do?

Paneru
Aug 7th, 2003, 07:56 PM
Martina has said in a few interviews that she wouldn't return just to be an also ran. she's used to being at the top.

My point exactly!

It's one thing to not want to compete when you're in pain.
Seeing as it could cause further injury.

However, I refuse to believe that her retirement was only about injury.
Injuries can be recovered from, though it may take much more of an effort and committment to get back. Martina herself said she doesn't like to practice, that mixed with and injury, having to recovery, and work even harder to defeat the sister's, I think it was just easier for her to get out.

So, Martina did quit.
She was not forced out by injury,
she chose to remove herself from the situtation all together.
Martina is the kind of person who plays to win and if she doesn't think she can win or is willing to work for it she runs. Plain and simple.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 7th, 2003, 08:01 PM
Lindsay said in an interview that Martina should suck it up and comeback.

As a Graf fan I know what it's like for your fav to be hampered by injury/surgery, but I also know what it's like to watch them battle back from injury/surgery, and retire on thier own terms.

Sanneriet
Aug 7th, 2003, 08:48 PM
I did seem to me that the fight had gone out of Martina at the end, but who can say whether it was from chronic pain or feeling like she was being overpowered . Personally, I truly believe it was the combination. I think she did leave tennis on her own terms. We are the ones who seem to think she "needs" to come back. She seems happy with her life and her accomplishments.

hingis-seles
Aug 8th, 2003, 01:10 PM
And, I, my friend think you're out of your mind. Why in hell would anyone think that Martina with 5 Slams and 40 or more titles is not worthy of praise. Jealousy...??? To be sure, Venus is still actively playing and may certainly surpass Martina's records of Slams and tourney titles. So, why are Venus' fans jealous???? In fact, Venus may very well win this years USOpen and tie Martina for number of slam wins. I think you're very foolish to state such bullshit, in fact, I'm now convinced that you are. But, if Venus never wins another title, she'll go down in history as one of the winningest (if that's a word) Sisters in tennis history, as well as one of the few African American women to achieve success on the WTA tour. Put that in your pipe and smoke it...!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Why wouldn't anyone think that Martina is not worthy of praise? Don't ask me. I'm always praising her. It's some posters from certain fan bases who fail to give her her due. I never said that "Venus' fans are jealous", I said "Certain fans of hers are insecure because her record is inferior to Martina's no matter which angle you look at it from". I wasn't generalizing and saying every Venus fan, but only a certain few. Why you felt the need to respond, I fail to understand, unless you feel my previous post was directed to you i.e. you were "one of the fans I was talking about".

It's funny that certain Williams fans first complain that people don't think of the Sisters as two seperate players, and then they pair their accomplishments together(like you have just done) to make them look even better than they already are. How's that for a double standard? Venus may be one of the few African American women to achieve success on the WTA Tour, but Martina will most probably remain the youngest-ever in just about every category, unless the WTA rules are changed regarding age-eligibility.

You think poorly of me and are convinced that I am "foolish to state such bullshit". Man, I feel like such a loser! Oh wait, now I know how you feel all the time.