PDA

View Full Version : Black Women Tennis Players


alfajeffster
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:16 PM
Where is the new crop of girls from inner-city youth tennis programs that is supposed to be developing alongside the rise of the Williams Sisters the past 5 years? Has the USTA dropped the ball in this regard? We have 3 women of color in the top 20 in the world, and all three give back to the game regularly with their personal time with youth and inner-city tennis programs. What's happening?

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:17 PM
Great question! Itīs really a shame that there have been only three African-american champions in tennis history!

Cam'ron Giles
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:20 PM
Great question! Itīs really a shame that there have been only three African-american champions in tennis history!


:confused:

G_Slammed
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:20 PM
Say what bandabou?????

sartrista7
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:21 PM
Angela Haynes and Shenay Perry are both young and making their way pretty steadily up the rankings; both would appear to have decent game. (There's also Jamea Jackson and Shadisha Robinson, but they've done pretty much nothing to shout about thus far.)

Thing is, there isn't really a potential SLAM champion in sight amongst the US juniors, whether black or white.

DA FOREHAND
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:22 PM
I hit at the Southeast Tennis and Learning Center,(D.C.) every week, there are some good young players there, but I haven't seen anyone (yet) who stands out. I think they could all get college scholarships though.

DA FOREHAND
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:23 PM
I think Jamea, travels w/the US Fed Cup team.

cool bird
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:24 PM
This is total off topic.
Why is that the Americans call there black people African American why dont they jusy call them Black cos that what they are.
I mean what do you guys call English Black people.

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:26 PM
Say what bandabou?????

To my knowledge there have been only three African-American female champions in tennis history or am I mistaken?! Althea Gibson, Venus and Serena. And with the Williams sisters the impact of the USTA was nihil, īcause they father teached them himself.

Iīm only saying that for such a big sport as tennis is in the states, the african-american impact is still waaayyy to small.

alfajeffster
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:27 PM
Zina Garrison and Lori McNeil have been working with the Houston Parks and Rec. Department for well over 10 years now, and they were both still playing doubles on the circuit when the Williams Sisters appeared. I don't get it!!! It makes me very angry as well. In the meantime, we have seen little Ashley Harkleroad being touted as the next Chris Evert clone (which is really what they're touting- only in today's language), and little miss Ashley is more akin to a Jelena Dokic clone if we analyze her real potential. It's time for a change!

Cam'ron Giles
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:27 PM
Who knows why in the UK...in America we "chose" to be called African American out of pride for our ancestors in the same way Italians are called Italian Americans...or the Irish...Irish Americans and so on...PURE AFRICAN PRIDE...:D

Ryan
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:29 PM
Zina Garrison and Lori McNeil have been working with the Houston Parks and Rec. Department for well over 10 years now, and they were both still playing doubles on the circuit when the Williams Sisters appeared. I don't get it!!! It makes me very angry as well. In the meantime, we have seen little Ashley Harkleroad being touted as the next Chris Evert clone (which is really what they're touting- only in today's language), and little miss Ashley is more akin to a Jelena Dokic clone if we analyze her real potential. It's time for a change!


What the flying fuck does Harkleroad have to do with Jamea, Mashona, and Angela? Ashley has shown RESULTS, and when a pretty young black girl does then maybe she'll be hyped as the next Serena.

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:32 PM
What the flying fuck does Harkleroad have to do with Jamea, Mashona, and Angela? Ashley has shown RESULTS, and when a pretty young black girl does then maybe she'll be hyped as the next Serena.

Do u really think that there arenīt other black players with more potential than Ashley?!

alfajeffster
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:33 PM
What the flying fuck does Harkleroad have to do with Jamea, Mashona, and Angela? Ashley has shown RESULTS, and when a pretty young black girl does then maybe she'll be hyped as the next Serena.

I'll tell you what- she is the latest in a long line of blonde, two-fisted baseliners in poneytails that the tennis industry just keeps spitting out like so many marketable barbie dolls- and not just in the USTA, either, witness how many blonde bimbos have come out of Russia in the past 4 years. The point of my post is to question whether or not it's time to re-examine this industry practice of popping out underachieving bimbos versus getting involved at the grass roots level in places like where the Williams Sisters came from and see what kind of tennis can be produced.

Ryan
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:35 PM
Do u really think that there arenīt other black players with more potential than Ashley?!

No, moron. They just haven't fulfilled it, or even shown it yet. And when they do, THEN they can be hyped.

Ryan
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:37 PM
I'll tell you what- she is the latest in a long line of blonde, two-fisted baseliners in poneytails that the tennis industry just keeps spitting out like so many marketable barbie dolls- and not just in the USTA, either, witness how many blonde bimbos have come out of Russia in the past 4 years. The point of my post is to question whether or not it's time to re-examine this industry practice of popping out underachieving bimbos versus getting involved at the grass roots level in places like where the Williams Sisters came from and see what kind of tennis can be produced.

Well if you had worded your first post like this one, then I would agree. Saying Ashley Harkleroad has no potential to be a top player is untrue though. The USTA should explore every area for potentially promising players, true, but I don't think they're that interested.

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:38 PM
And the funny thingīs that all those barbie-dolls arenīt exactly producing results! Anna?! No titles! Dani?! Eating disorder. Elena D?! Canīt serve! Maria?! Can go the way of Dani! Jelena Dokic?! Overworked! And the list goes on and on!

Serena and Venus may not fit in the typical barbie-profile, but give me their results any day!

DA FOREHAND
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:39 PM
The USTA, needs to revamp thier development programs. If you don't have a "look" it seems that you won't get the full backing. It's no wonder Richard was smart enough to bring his girls along the way he sees fit.

sartrista7
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:40 PM
And the funny thingīs that all those barbie-dolls arenīt exactly producing results! Anna?! No titles! Dani?! Eating disorder. Elena D?! Canīt serve! Maria?! Can go the way of Dani! Jelena Dokic?! Overworked! And the list goes on and on!

Serena and Venus may not fit in the typical barbie-profile, but give me their results any day!

Uh, it's a little bit too soon to write Maria off just yet, don't you think?

Ryan
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:41 PM
Uh, it's a little bit too soon to write Maria off just yet, don't you think?


Apparently every slim attractive girl now has an eating disorder. Keep up, would ya Sartrista?

alexusjonesfan
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:42 PM
Do u really think that there arenīt other black players with more potential than Ashley?!

that's not the point at all...none of the players you mentioned have had a good run at a slam or had high profile matches at higher tier events. Admittedly, Ashely was pretty high profile well before RG 03 as 'the american Anna' and she first attracted crowd attention because of a tight revealing outfit.

btw, how are/were their results in the juniors? I don't know how Ashley did in the juniors but are they comparable?
I don't think it has much to do with 'potential'. Ashley hit the big time on her looks and people started talking of her as a future gs champ after her run at RG.

btw what happened to Mashona (?) Washington? wasn't she also a bright prospect?

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:44 PM
No, moron. They just haven't fulfilled it, or even shown it yet. And when they do, THEN they can be hyped.

Uuuhmmm.....maybe......the USTA hasnīt......uuuhhmmm....went out to find them yet?! And WHAT exactly has Ashley achieved, besides beating Dani( who doesnīt nowadays?)

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:46 PM
Uh, it's a little bit too soon to write Maria off just yet, don't you think?

Not writing her off at all! But Iīm afraid that if people keep calling her the new Anna, she may well think that modelling is more important than playing tennis.

Cariaoke
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:46 PM
I'd just like to laugh at 'call there blacks African-American'...

after being CALLED and not CHOOSING to be called... '******', 'Negro', 'Colored' and finally 'black', African-Americans CHOOSE to define what they are and people have a problem with it. No one bitches at Irish, Japanese, whatever fucking ish-American one chooses to call themselves. If I were only so lucky to know my heritage, lak what country in Africa I actually came from, I'm sure I'd be labeled 'cool' if I called myself Kenyan-American but I'm not so I call myself African-American.

Anyway, the USTA needs to do more. Like, MLB is seeing a dramatic drop in American born blacks playing in the game, with so many choosing basketball and football over baseball, so they've redone their inner city programs to change the tide. There have never been a lot of blacks in tennis but now there's more than ever before but only three are in the top 20.

Ryan
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:46 PM
Uuuhmmm.....maybe......the USTA hasnīt......uuuhhmmm....went out to find them yet?! And WHAT exactly has Ashley achieved, besides beating Dani( who doesnīt nowadays?)


*sigh*. She made the semifinals of Strasbourg, and Charleston beating 3 top 20 players very convincingly. She is ranked in the top 50(or 60) and her third round at Roland Garros is more then any of those challenger level black players has done combined.

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:49 PM
*sigh*. She made the semifinals of Strasbourg, and Charleston beating 3 top 20 players very convincingly. She is ranked in the top 50(or 60) and her third round at Roland Garros is more then any of those challenger level black players has done combined.

But I think Mashona is WELL older than Ashley, so that doesnīt go. I donīt buy that the other black players donīt have potential. No one thought Venus had potential either and well....

alexusjonesfan
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:50 PM
it's been said before...
the roads to quick popularity in the wta are:


Glamour and Looks
Breakthrough Results


but of course the list is different for achieving lasting fame ;)

Ryan
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:52 PM
But I think Mashona is WELL older than Ashley, so that doesnīt go. I donīt buy that the other black players donīt have potential. No one thought Venus had potential either and well....

What? I never said they don't have potential. You asked for Ashley's results, I gave them. She HAS done more then any of the black players mentioned (Jamea/Mashona/Angela), I never said she had more potential then them.

sartrista7
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:54 PM
But I think Mashona is WELL older than Ashley, so that doesnīt go. I donīt buy that the other black players donīt have potential. No one thought Venus had potential either and well....

Er, everyone thought Venus had potential (though a few didn't want to admit it). Look at her very first Tour result. Look how many WCs she got. The girl has never played a Challenger in her life, because she a) got WCs to WTA events straight off and b) did relatively well at them.

The most promising black girls in the US are Haynes and Perry, both around Harkleroad's age, both without her results (which *are* impressive, though I doubt she'll ever win a Slam).

As dismissive as you are of Maria, she is going to have a career better than Haynes, Perry and Harkleroad combined.

alexusjonesfan
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:54 PM
But I think Mashona is WELL older than Ashley, so that doesnīt go. I donīt buy that the other black players donīt have potential. No one thought Venus had potential either and well....

aaah, why do you keep thinking that people are saying that the other black players don't have potential?

btw, everyone thought Venus had potential. She's been in the news since she was 10 years old and there were positive articles and news clippings back then about players like Chris Evert hitting with them (yeah, she does that for all the players not showing potential)...Venus was one of the most hyped young players ever and like Hingis, was expected to do great things.

Experimentee
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:56 PM
Its too soon to be expecting a surge of black players based on the Williams sisters results. Venus and Serena have only started winning slams in the last few years, which is fairly recently. They usually work with kids in programs who are about 10 years old or under, so its too soon to be expecting those kids to have results now. I would expect an increase in black players in around 5-10 years time, based on little kids now being inspired by the Williamses.
But i do think the USTA is not doing enough with their young players, theres hardly any good American players coming up, actually Harkleroad is probbaly the only one of note, the rest dont have many great results to speak of.

sartrista7
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:57 PM
What is interesting is that, in terms of sparking off a tennis revolution in her own community, Anna Kournikova may well have had a greater impact in tennis than the Williams sisters, which is ironic to say the least.

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:58 PM
Er, everyone thought Venus had potential (though a few didn't want to admit it). Look at her very first Tour result. Look how many WCs she got. The girl has never played a Challenger in her life, because she a) got WCs to WTA events straight off and b) did relatively well at them.

The most promising black girls in the US are Haynes and Perry, both around Harkleroad's age, both without her results (which *are* impressive, though I doubt she'll ever win a Slam).

As dismissive as you are of Maria, she is going to have a career better than Haynes, Perry and Harkleroad combined.

Iīm not dismissive of Maria. She really impressed me( well besides her grunting!) with her game. She has for sure more game than Ashley.

Iīm only saying that it must be funny that the best two Black players in tennis history came up without help of the USTA!

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:00 PM
What is interesting is that, in terms of sparking off a tennis revolution in her own community, Anna Kournikova may well have had a greater impact in tennis than the Williams sisters, which is ironic to say the least.

Thatīs ironic indeed! Looks DO matter after all and not results! :lol:

sartrista7
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:03 PM
Iīm not dismissive of Maria. She really impressed me( well besides her grunting!) with her game. She has for sure more game than Ashley.

Iīm only saying that it must be funny that the best two Black players in tennis history came up without help of the USTA!

Not really... the USTA is, from what I can tell, pretty useless when it comes to white players, let alone black ones. Of the current top Americans, only Davenport (and Rubin?) is/are genuine USTA product(s).

Re: Anna - not looks, money ;) But compare the number of Russian girls she inspired with the number of black girls who are coming through.

alexusjonesfan
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:05 PM
Iīm only saying that it must be funny that the best two Black players in tennis history came up without help of the USTA!

yeah, the USTA seems to be lacking in depth right now but they've got 5+ more years (assuming Venus and Serena play that long) to look for replacement champions.

btw, it's also funny that Russia's best male player came up without any help from Russian tennis academies and that most of the top Russian women honed their skills and still do at American tennis academies.

alfajeffster
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:07 PM
Iīm only saying that it must be funny that the best two Black players in tennis history came up without help of the USTA!

This is a common myth. The Williams sisters DID get help from the USTA, only their father chose to keep them out of the junior circuit, largely because he (correctly) felt he didn't want to expose them to the pervasive "protect your ranking" school of thought which continues to this day in that industry. He WAS smart enough to enlist the USTA for guidance with the development of his daughters- the USTA got the Williams sisters in the door at every major training academy in the State of Florida- with Rick Macci being the most influential during their formative stages. Hell- all you have to do is look at their games and they have the Bollettieri stamp all over them- big, western grip forehand bashing from the baseline with a two-handed down-the-line bash on the backhand.

I consider the accomplishments of Althea Gibson greater than anthing Serena has accomplished so far. She did a lot more in a much shorter period of time, and had she been able to keep playing amateur past 1960, she probably would have taken quite a few Majors from Margaret Smith and Maria Bueno!

Fingon
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:08 PM
And the funny thingīs that all those barbie-dolls arenīt exactly producing results! Anna?! No titles! Dani?! Eating disorder. Elena D?! Canīt serve! Maria?! Can go the way of Dani! Jelena Dokic?! Overworked! And the list goes on and on!

Serena and Venus may not fit in the typical barbie-profile, but give me their results any day!
and they call me racist.

so, it's obvioulsy wrong to be blonde and pretty, what a shame, how dare you Ashely, Maria, Elena and the rest?

I thought the thread referred to the USTA, last time I checked, all this players except Ashely are NOT american :rolleyes:

You are just assuming Maria can go the way of Dani, so you are assuming she will fail even though she is only 16 and her last result was above the expectations, but, she is blonde, she is pretty, she is a bimbo, she must fail :rolleyes:

also interesting that you compare those players, forget about Anna, Elena D or Dokic, Maria and Ashley are at the beginning of their careers and you campare them to Venus and Serena.

Why don't you compare them to Teryn Ashley or Jamea Jackson? or better, why don't you compare them to Alexandra Stevenson or Mashona Washington?

Obviously, results wise any player will lack compare to Venus and Serena, it's interesting you use it to show beauty and blonde hair is an abominable thing, funny you don't compare to other white players that are not that pretty. If your game suck, it's alright if you are not pretty, but you are dammed if you are.

You know, racism is racism, discrimination is discrimination, not only when it applies to black people.

and before someone ask why to bring racism to this thread, bandalou brought it, from his very first post :rolleyes:

Ryan
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:12 PM
Am I the only one who thinks bandabou doesn't know what he's talking about, and in only jumping from topic to topic trying to put down talented blondes?

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:14 PM
and they call me racist.

so, it's obvioulsy wrong to be blonde and pretty, what a shame, how dare you Ashely, Maria, Elena and the rest?

I thought the thread referred to the USTA, last time I checked, all this players except Ashely are NOT american :rolleyes:

You are just assuming Maria can go the way of Dani, so you are assuming she will fail even though she is only 16 and her last result was above the expectations, but, she is blonde, she is pretty, she is a bimbo, she must fail :rolleyes:

also interesting that you compare those players, forget about Anna, Elena D or Dokic, Maria and Ashley are at the beginning of their careers and you campare them to Venus and Serena.

Why don't you compare them to Teryn Ashley or Jamea Jackson? or better, why don't you compare them to Alexandra Stevenson or Mashona Washington?

Obviously, results wise any player will lack compare to Venus and Serena, it's interesting you use it to show beauty and blonde hair is an abominable thing, funny you don't compare to other white players that are not that pretty. If your game suck, it's alright if you are not pretty, but you are dammed if you are.

You know, racism is racism, discrimination is discrimination, not only when it applies to black people.

and before someone ask why to bring racism to this thread, bandalou brought it, from his very first post :rolleyes:

What, what?! Youīre way out of line! I only say that all these girls are being hyped and overhyped, when they have achieved little so far! Nothing to do with color or blonde or anything! When Venus and Serena were these girls age they both had better results than them( plenty more titles!, but because they had yet to win a slam people went as far to call them underachievers! Most of these girls, with the exception of Maria, are 19/ 20 years and donīt have that many titles...yet alone slams! Still they are on every cover and stuff!

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:16 PM
Am I the only one who thinks bandabou doesn't know what he's talking about, and in only jumping from topic to topic trying to put down talented blondes?

The blondes are talented aight! They only have yet to show it. Dani: one title. Elena D: one title... Man, for all their talent the results arenīt there!

alexusjonesfan
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:17 PM
Am I the only one who thinks bandabou doesn't know what he's talking about, and in only jumping from topic to topic trying to put down talented blondes?

lol, your comment reminds me of one Alex Stevenson made. She said something about how she was shocked at 'those tall blonde russians' getting unfair attention. :lol:...umm it might've had something to do with their results.

I read an article a while back about how Anna was doomed to never fulfill her tennis potential because of her looks always being in the way (although with 19 mil/year with enough wins to count on one hand, I wouldn't complain). It does seem that people write off your talent a lot quicker if you're a pretty girl.

Ryan
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:19 PM
Elena Bovina: 2 titles. No, they do not have the trophy case of Martina Hingis, but they have achieved more then any of the black players you've mentioned. So, I dont understand why they're being brought up in here.

sartrista7
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:20 PM
The blondes are talented aight! They only have yet to show it. Dani: one title. Elena D: one title... Man, for all their talent the results arenīt there!

Neither Daniela nor Elena have received half the hype Venus and Serena did (especially Venus, which is odd in hindsight). They've received a fair bit because 1) they ARE talented, and yes, 2) because they're attractive.

Only Anna and Jelena and maybe in the next couple of years Maria received anything approaching the Williams level of hype, and it's worth remembering a couple of things:

1) Anna had better results at a younger age than Venus.
2) What Jelena did at Wimbledon '99 was astonishing; it's not the media's fault that the girl is insane.

sartrista7
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:22 PM
lol, your comment reminds me of one Alex Stevenson made. She said something about how she was shocked at 'those tall blonde russians' getting unfair attention. :lol:...umm it might've had something to do with their results.

she said that?! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh, Alexandra. Always good for a spot of unintentional comedy. :haha:

Fingon
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:24 PM
What, what?! Youīre way out of line! I only say that all these girls are being hyped and overhyped, when they have achieved little so far! Nothing to do with color or blonde or anything! When Venus and Serena were these girls age they both had better results than them( plenty more titles!, but because they had yet to win a slam people went as far to call them underachievers! Most of these girls, with the exception of Maria, are 19/ 20 years and donīt have that many titles...yet alone slams! Still they are on every cover and stuff!


well, all the girls in that list are pretty, and blonde.

I find the statement that Maria might just have an eating disorder at any time disturbing, it's like you are forcing the issue to make her look bad.

You can't compare to Venus and Serena, particulary Serena, if you compare Serena's early achievements nearly all players look bad.

And Ashley is 18 FYI.

additionally, Jelena has might be in a slump but she won 5 titles.

There are many other players that are overhypped and have achieve less than the players mentioned, but they are not blonde are pretty.

also somebody, NOT you, called them bimbos, which is pretty insulting IMO

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:26 PM
Neither Daniela nor Elena have received half the hype Venus and Serena did (especially Venus, which is odd in hindsight). They've received a fair bit because 1) they ARE talented, and yes, 2) because they're attractive.

Only Anna and Jelena and maybe in the next couple of years Maria received anything approaching the Williams level of hype, and it's worth remembering a couple of things:

1) Anna had better results at a younger age than Venus.
2) What Jelena did at Wimbledon '99 was astonishing; it's not the media's fault that the girl is insane.

You now why Venus was hyped?! It only happened AFTER she became the FIRST UNSEEDED player to reach the Open final on her debut! Thatīs more than anything Anna has EVER achieved! What, a Wimbledon semi is better than actually reaching a slam final?!

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:28 PM
well, all the girls in that list are pretty, and blonde.

I find the statement that Maria might just have an eating disorder at any time disturbing, it's like you are forcing the issue to make her look bad.

You can't compare to Venus and Serena, particulary Serena, if you compare Serena's early achievements nearly all players look bad.

And Ashley is 18 FYI.

additionally, Jelena has might be in a slump but she won 5 titles.

There are many other players that are overhypped and have achieve less than the players mentioned, but they are not blonde are pretty.

also somebody, NOT you, called them bimbos, which is pretty insulting IMO

That was my point. Iīve never called anyone bimbo. About Maria, Iīm not saying she will get an eating disorder or something...only saying that the fame might make her focus more on modelling than on tennis.

Ryan
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:30 PM
You now why Venus was hyped?! It only happened AFTER she became the FIRST UNSEEDED player to reach the Open final on her debut! Thatīs more than anything Anna has EVER achieved! What, a Wimbledon semi is better than actually reaching a slam final?!



Agh, your logic is painful. Pam Shriver did the same I'm pretty sure, so I don't think Venus was the first. Yes, it's more then Anna has ever achieved. Your point? Anna did have better results at a younger age then Venus. One US Open final is *A* result, and Anna had better consistant results when she was younger.


result-one tournament
results-multiple tournaments

sartrista7
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:31 PM
You now why Venus was hyped?! It only happened AFTER she became the FIRST UNSEEDED player to reach the Open final on her debut! Thatīs more than anything Anna has EVER achieved! What, a Wimbledon semi is better than actually reaching a slam final?!

You're not serious, right? I first heard of Venus in '96, and people were calling her a certain future Slam champion after her first big result in '97 (beating Iva Majoli in IW). RG and Wimbledon were all about Martina, Anna and Venus that year, well before Venus reached the USO final.

*sigh* Anna reached the Wimbledon SF at 16 a few months before Venus reached the USO final at 17. Yes, Anna achieved more at a younger age. At 16, Venus had done nada.

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:39 PM
Agh, your logic is painful. Pam Shriver did the same I'm pretty sure, so I don't think Venus was the first. Yes, it's more then Anna has ever achieved. Your point? Anna did have better results at a younger age then Venus. One US Open final is *A* result, and Anna had better consistant results when she was younger.


result-one tournament
results-multiple tournaments

Bla bla, bla! Pam didnīt reach the Open final on her debut! And about Anna, she had better results than Venus at a younger age. But Damn man, as she become older...those results sure stayed with her younger ages!

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:39 PM
You're not serious, right? I first heard of Venus in '96, and people were calling her a certain future Slam champion after her first big result in '97 (beating Iva Majoli in IW). RG and Wimbledon were all about Martina, Anna and Venus that year, well before Venus reached the USO final.

*sigh* Anna reached the Wimbledon SF at 16 a few months before Venus reached the USO final at 17. Yes, Anna achieved more at a younger age. At 16, Venus had done nada.

At age 16 Venus wasn t playing nada!

alfajeffster
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:40 PM
Say- did you hear why they fired the blonde from the M&M factory?

alfajeffster
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:46 PM
Say- did you hear why they fired the blonde from the M&M factory?

She kept throwing out all the Ws!

Okay- I know, lame, but hey, so is most of the other drivel in this place- it's like picking up a TigerBeat magazine from 1977 sometimes...

Ryan
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:53 PM
She kept throwing out all the Ws!

Okay- I know, lame, but hey, so is most of the other drivel in this place- it's like picking up a TigerBeat magazine from 1977 sometimes...

Drivel? You started this thread, so I guess it's an accurate word.

Ryan
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:54 PM
At age 16 Venus wasn t playing nada!


Which is why Anna had better results then her. Duh.

Ryan
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:58 PM
Bla bla, bla! Pam didnīt reach the Open final on her debut! And about Anna, she had better results than Venus at a younger age. But Damn man, as she become older...those results sure stayed with her younger ages!


Pam Shriver


AO RG WIM USO
1978 - - 3RD F


Please eat your words. On Pam's first tour year she reached the US Open final, losing to Evert.

alfajeffster
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:58 PM
Drivel? You started this thread, so I guess it's an accurate word.

Oops- I should have said Sixteen magazine. How does it go? MY BAD!

DA FOREHAND
Jul 30th, 2003, 05:09 PM
"I consider the accomplishments of Althea Gibson greater than anthing Serena has accomplished so far. She did a lot more in a much shorter period of time, and had she been able to keep playing amateur past 1960, she probably would have taken quite a few Majors from Margaret Smith and Maria Bueno!" So in true Selestial fashion does that put an * next to both of thier names?

Ryan
Jul 30th, 2003, 05:13 PM
Oops- I should have said Sixteen magazine. How does it go? MY BAD!


Yes. Of course.

alfajeffster
Jul 30th, 2003, 05:34 PM
"I consider the accomplishments of Althea Gibson greater than anthing Serena has accomplished so far. She did a lot more in a much shorter period of time, and had she been able to keep playing amateur past 1960, she probably would have taken quite a few Majors from Margaret Smith and Maria Bueno!" So in true Selestial fashion does that put an * next to both of thier names?

No, I don't believe in asterisks, and there are none in the record books in my library. Althea Gibson won 1 French, 2 Wimbledon, and 2 U.S. Championships in the span of 3 years, and couldn't afford or get sponsorship to be able to travel to Australia, because believe me, she would have. No asterisk necessary there- 5 Majors when serve-and-volleyers like Shirley Fry, Doris Hart, Darlene Hard, Margaret Osborne, and Maria Bueno were all burning up the grass blades.

villa
Jul 30th, 2003, 05:35 PM
people we won't be seeing many black players breaking through for a good couple of years- how many black folks have been inspired by the williams story in the last 5 years and thus will get their children to pick up the sport of tennis- countless...
i don't think we'll be seeing many black players as good as the williams in the next couple of years- however given the popularity the sport know has amoung black people in the next 5-10 years- the of black women should be alot higher..

and i might add also that their is a chance that tennis can go the way of some other sports and be completly dominated by black people in the future- e.g basketball/athletics- venus and serena due their inherited characteristics are faster and more powerfull than another player- black people generally are and being more powerfull and faster than your oponent will be a mass advantage for these players...

DA FOREHAND
Jul 30th, 2003, 05:47 PM
people we won't be seeing many black players breaking through for a good couple of years- how many black folks have been inspired by the williams story in the last 5 years and thus will get their children to pick up the sport of tennis- countless...
i don't think we'll be seeing many black players as good as the williams in the next couple of years- however given the popularity the sport know has amoung black people in the next 5-10 years- the of black women should be alot higher..

and i might add also that their is a chance that tennis can go the way of some other sports and be completly dominated by black people in the future- e.g basketball/athletics- venus and serena due their inherited characteristics are faster and more powerfull than another player- black people generally are and being more powerfull and faster than your oponent will be a mass advantage for these players...

Scrapped football for tennis?
There was an interesting rpt. on "Real Sports" -w/Bryant Gumbal About the rise of Europeon born/trained bballers coming up, and how in a few years they will rule basketball, based on thier sound game fundamentals.

W/out the proper training and determination and focus, even natural born talents/skills won't make you a world-class athlete. Martina N. is a prime example, until she dedicated herself to her chosen sport, she was an also ran.

alfajeffster
Jul 30th, 2003, 06:50 PM
W/out the proper training and determination and focus, even natural born talents/skills won't make you a world-class athlete. Martina N. is a prime example, until she dedicated herself to her chosen sport, she was an also ran.

BRAVO!!! YOU should have been there back in 1976 when Howard Head introduced (and got approval from the ITF) for the first oversized tennis racquet to be used, and YOU should have been there when Nick Bollettieri opened his first clinic that taught western grips and baseline bashing to the exclusion of thinking and point construction. I think the direction the game of tennis has moved (not the players- the game, and how it is "played) is PATHETIC! It rewards the 1-2 style of who hits the first winner, and players with little or no fundamental talent- just bigger, better athletes, can and do win. There's not a really good volleyer in the top 10 women in tennis today, and you have to go all the way down to Tim Henman in the men's side!

DA FOREHAND
Jul 30th, 2003, 06:56 PM
hmmm, I don't know about that, as far as volleys are concerned(yes traditional volleys, in singles not when a player is stationed at the net) I think Venus had a really good volley, and getting better. Strange that everytime Venus plays Fed Cup(BJK) her volleys improve. And before I forget justine not only has good "hands", but she's an even better volleyer than Venus.

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 07:13 PM
BRAVO!!! YOU should have been there back in 1976 when Howard Head introduced (and got approval from the ITF) for the first oversized tennis racquet to be used, and YOU should have been there when Nick Bollettieri opened his first clinic that taught western grips and baseline bashing to the exclusion of thinking and point construction. I think the direction the game of tennis has moved (not the players- the game, and how it is "played) is PATHETIC! It rewards the 1-2 style of who hits the first winner, and players with little or no fundamental talent- just bigger, better athletes, can and do win. There's not a really good volleyer in the top 10 women in tennis today, and you have to go all the way down to Tim Henman in the men's side!

As long as u remember that this counts for Agassi, Graf et al too! Graf wasnīt playing exactly serve and volley tennis either!

P.s.: Federer has damn good volleys!

alfajeffster
Jul 30th, 2003, 07:39 PM
As long as u remember that this counts for Agassi, Graf et al too! Graf wasnīt playing exactly serve and volley tennis either!

P.s.: Federer has damn good volleys!

Andre Agassi is a marginal volleyer at best- he's a classic (I use the word sarcastically) Bollettieri grad who hits a volley, then backs up- watch him next time he hits a volley- he backs up instead of moving foreward well of 90% of the time.

Graf was a better volleyer than any of the top 10 women today, but still not a natural up there. Her game was moulded around the best forehand in the history of women's tennis, and pretty much everyone across the board agrees that if she would have come to the net even 50% more than she did- we would be talking 3 or 4 Grand Slams.

P.S.- Federer is a good volleyer, but nowhere near Tim Henman or Stefan Edberg, or Pat Rafter, or John McEnroe, or Pat Cash (or any Aussie prior to Pat Cash for that matter). Roger Federer is about as good a volleyer as Pete Sampras- pretty average, but they can get away with it because what they come in on is SOOO GOOD!

DA FOREHAND
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:16 PM
I didn't wanna bring Steffi into this convo, but she was has very good technique and coverage at the net, not to mention quick as hell. She also had the best backhand overhead since Evonne. That shot is what sticks in my mind most about Evonne's game.

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:16 PM
Andre Agassi is a marginal volleyer at best- he's a classic (I use the word sarcastically) Bollettieri grad who hits a volley, then backs up- watch him next time he hits a volley- he backs up instead of moving foreward well of 90% of the time.

Graf was a better volleyer than any of the top 10 women today, but still not a natural up there. Her game was moulded around the best forehand in the history of women's tennis, and pretty much everyone across the board agrees that if she would have come to the net even 50% more than she did- we would be talking 3 or 4 Grand Slams.

P.S.- Federer is a good volleyer, but nowhere near Tim Henman or Stefan Edberg, or Pat Rafter, or John McEnroe, or Pat Cash (or any Aussie prior to Pat Cash for that matter). Roger Federer is about as good a volleyer as Pete Sampras- pretty average, but they can get away with it because what they come in on is SOOO GOOD!

Well your point about Graf, counts for both Serena and Venus too. If they ever started to come to the net, then we would be talking about total domination. If they ever committed to the net, well they would be only 1 slam left for the rest of the field to have any hope winning.

I think Federer is pretty good at the net, didnīt you see the shot with which he won the second set against Roddick?!

DA FOREHAND
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:19 PM
Serena should first get a solid volley before attempting to approach. She can be downright scarey when she's up there, very very shakey volleys, even the one's that saved her ass against Kim at the A.O.

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:24 PM
Serena should first get a solid volley before attempting to approach. She can be downright scarey when she's up there, very very shakey volleys, even the one's that saved her ass against Kim at the A.O.

Probably, I think she only has problem with the backhand volley though.

alfajeffster
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:27 PM
Well your point about Graf, counts for both Serena and Venus too. If they ever started to come to the net, then we would be talking about total domination. If they ever committed to the net, well they would be only 1 slam left for the rest of the field to have any hope winning.

I think Federer is pretty good at the net, didnīt you see the shot with which he won the second set against Roddick?!

Don't get me started on Andy (HEE-HAW) Roddick! Yes, I did see that shot- and I think the world of Roger Federer- I saw him play a doubles match live at Indian Wells a few years ago against the Bryan brothers. Roger has the best hands in the game right now- terrific to see!!!

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:32 PM
The guy is VERY good and sure makes it look it easy. Now thatīs gotten the monkey off his back, he could be downright scary in a dominating way! As far as talent I think Roger and Marat are the most talented IMO.