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Volcana
Jul 30th, 2003, 02:36 PM
It's NOT a good record. She's never beaten a top 15 player on American hardcourts.


99 US Open 128 L MAURESMO (FRA) 1-6 4-6
-- --------------- --- - ---------------------------
00 Canadian Open 64 W SVENSSON (SWE) 6-2 4-6 6-3
00 Canadian Open 32 L DAVENPORT (USA) 6-3 6-7 2-6
00 New Haven 32 W APPELMANS (BEL) 6-2 6-4
00 New Haven 16 L COETZER (RSA) 2-6 6-4 1-6
00 U.S. Open 128 W LABAT (ARG) 6-2 6-4
00 U.S. Open 64 W MOLIK (AUS) 6-2 6-2
00 U.S. Open 32 W KOURNIKOVA (RUS) 6-4 7-6
00 U.S. Open 16 L DAVENPORT (USA) 0-6 4-6
-- --------------- --- - ---------------------------
01 Scottsdale 32 L SERNA (ESP) 6-7 6-7
01 Indian Wells 64 W RITTNER (GER) 6-3 6-4
01 Indian Wells 32 L CLIJSTERS (BEL) 6-1 4-6 3-6
01 Miami 64 W BOVINA (RUS) 6-2 6-2
01 Miami 32 L GARBIN (ITA) 3-6 1-6
01 Canadian Open 32 W SUGIYAMA (JPN) 6-4 7-6
01 Canadian Open 16 W FRAZIER (USA) 6-3 6-2
01 Canadian Open QF L SELES (USA) 6-1 2-6 2-6
01 New Haven 32 W SVENSSON (SWE) 6-2 6-3
01 New Haven 16 W SCHETT (AUT) 6-3 6-2
01 New Haven QF L V. WILLIAMS (USA) 3-6 7-5 2-6
01 U.S. Open 128 W IRVIN (USA) 6-3 6-3
01 U.S. Open 64 W SCHNYDER (SUI) 6-7 6-1 6-4
01 U.S. Open 32 W VAVRINEC (SUI) 6-3 6-2
01 U.S. Open 16 L S. WILLIAMS (USA) 5-7 0-6
01 Waikoloa 32 W DOMINIKOVIC (AUS) 6-2 6-0
01 Waikoloa 16 W PRATT (AUS) 6-1 6-4
01 Waikoloa QF W CRAYBAS (USA) 6-0 6-4
01 Waikoloa SF W RAYMOND (USA) 6-2 6-2
01 Waikoloa FR L TESTUD (FRA) 3-6 0-2 Ret
-- --------------- --- - ---------------------------
02 Indian Wells 64 W MATEVZIC (SLO) 5-7 6-4 6-4
02 Indian Wells 32 W Ad. SERRA ZANETTI (ITA) 6-3 6-0
02 Indian Wells 16 L HANTUCHOVA (SVK) 3-6 3-6
02 Miami 64 L PISTOLESI (ISR) 7-6 3-6 4-6
02 Stanford 32 L IRVIN (USA) 3-6 6-4 1-6
02 Canadian Open 32 W NAGYOVA (SVK) 5-7 6-0 4-1 Ret
02 Canadian Open 16 W SCHIAVONE (ITA) 6-3 7-6
02 Canadian Open QF L CAPRIATI (USA) 6-4 0-6 2-6
02 New Haven 16 L MYSKINA (RUS) 5-7 2-6
02 U.S. Open 128 W REEVES (USA) 6-1 6-2
02 U.S. Open 64 W BLACK (ZIM) 6-3 6-2
02 U.S. Open 32 W BIELIK (USA) 7-5 6-1
02 U.S. Open 16 L HANTUCHOVA (SVK) 1-6 6-3 6-7
-- --------------- --- - ---------------------------
03 Miami 64 W DOUCHEVINA (RUS) 6-3 6-2
03 Miami 32 W TANASUGARN (THA) 6-2 6-0
03 Miami 16 W WEINGARTNER (GER) 6-1 6-2
03 Miami QF L RUBIN (USA) 3-6 2-6
03 San Diego 32 W DANIILIDOU (GRE) 6-1 6-1





Best wins

00 U.S. Open 32 W KOURNIKOVA (RUS) 6-4 7-6
01 Canadian Open 32 W SUGIYAMA (JPN) 6-4 7-6
01 U.S. Open 64 W SCHNYDER (SUI) 6-7 6-1 6-4
01 Waikoloa SF W RAYMOND (USA) 6-2 6-2
02 Canadian Open 16 W SCHIAVONE (ITA) 6-3 7-6
03 San Diego 32 W DANIILIDOU (GRE) 6-1 6-1

all Losses

99 US Open 128 L MAURESMO (FRA) 1-6 4-6
00 Canadian Open 32 L DAVENPORT (USA) 6-3 6-7 2-6
00 New Haven 16 L COETZER (RSA) 2-6 6-4 1-6
00 U.S. Open 16 L DAVENPORT (USA) 0-6 4-6
01 Scottsdale 32 L SERNA (ESP) 6-7 6-7
01 Indian Wells 32 L CLIJSTERS (BEL) 6-1 4-6 3-6
01 Miami 32 L GARBIN (ITA) 3-6 1-6
01 Canadian Open QF L SELES (USA) 6-1 2-6 2-6
01 New Haven QF L V. WILLIAMS (USA) 3-6 7-5 2-6
01 U.S. Open 16 L S. WILLIAMS (USA) 5-7 0-6
01 Waikoloa FR L TESTUD (FRA) 3-6 0-2 Ret
02 Indian Wells 16 L HANTUCHOVA (SVK) 3-6 3-6
02 Miami 64 L PISTOLESI (ISR) 7-6 3-6 4-6
02 Stanford 32 L IRVIN (USA) 3-6 6-4 1-6
02 Canadian Open QF L CAPRIATI (USA) 6-4 0-6 2-6
02 New Haven 16 L MYSKINA (RUS) 5-7 2-6
02 U.S. Open 16 L HANTUCHOVA (SVK) 1-6 6-3 6-7
03 Miami QF L RUBIN (USA) 3-6 2-6


WHy is she losing to Marissa Irvin in 2002?

ßcoene
Jul 30th, 2003, 02:41 PM
I think she hurt her hand during the match against Marissa Irvin. It was only in the third set, so it could never have been an easy match.

I'm sure this year Henin will beat better players.

Whatzup
Jul 30th, 2003, 02:41 PM
She broke her finger or something

minboy
Jul 30th, 2003, 02:42 PM
you seem so obsesssed with justine these days........this should be hiding something ( fear?)

MartinaI
Jul 30th, 2003, 02:43 PM
I think you can ignore these results now that she has a GS. She has improved so much since the spring and her confidence is the highest of anyone at the moment. It is her weakest surface though, but she will improve. She played brilliantly against Daniilidou.

Glenn
Jul 30th, 2003, 02:45 PM
OK, first of all, who even cares about whether it's in America or outside of America?
If Justine beats Lindsay in Australia on hardcourts, and Monica in Dubai, that's good enough for me.

Did you know Serena hasn't beaten ANY top 15 player on Estonian hardcourts? :eek:

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 02:52 PM
OK, first of all, who even cares about whether it's in America or outside of America?
If Justine beats Lindsay in Australia on hardcourts, and Monica in Dubai, that's good enough for me.

Did you know Serena hasn't beaten ANY top 15 player on Estonian hardcourts? :eek:

But she sure defeated them on all the other hardcourts! :D

ys
Jul 30th, 2003, 02:54 PM
OK, first of all, who even cares about whether it's in America or outside of America?
If Justine beats Lindsay in Australia on hardcourts, and Monica in Dubai, that's good enough for me.

Did you know Serena hasn't beaten ANY top 15 player on Estonian hardcourts? :eek:

Lame. Two similar surfaces can play completely different in two diffferent countries. Leave alone such vastly different surfaces as RA and Decoturf. They are MUCH more different than, say, green clay and red clay. And country does matter. Take, for instance, Yevgeny Kafelnikov. They say he sucks on grass. In fact, he sucks on English grass. But on German grass he is the king. Go figure..

great smash
Jul 30th, 2003, 02:57 PM
It's NOT a good record. She's never beaten a top 15 player on American hardcourts.

I advise you to check Kournikova's ranking at the time she was beaten by Henin. I think you might have to revise your statement :p

Glenn
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:03 PM
I advise you to check Kournikova's ranking at the time she was beaten by Henin. I think you might have to revise your statement :p
:lol:

Volcano: :banghead:

rikvanlooy
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:05 PM
It's NOT a good record. She's never beaten a top 15 player on American hardcourts.


99 US Open 128 L MAURESMO (FRA) 1-6 4-6
-- --------------- --- - ---------------------------
00 Canadian Open 64 W SVENSSON (SWE) 6-2 4-6 6-3
00 Canadian Open 32 L DAVENPORT (USA) 6-3 6-7 2-6
00 New Haven 32 W APPELMANS (BEL) 6-2 6-4
00 New Haven 16 L COETZER (RSA) 2-6 6-4 1-6
00 U.S. Open 128 W LABAT (ARG) 6-2 6-4
00 U.S. Open 64 W MOLIK (AUS) 6-2 6-2
00 U.S. Open 32 W KOURNIKOVA (RUS) 6-4 7-6
00 U.S. Open 16 L DAVENPORT (USA) 0-6 4-6
-- --------------- --- - ---------------------------
01 Scottsdale 32 L SERNA (ESP) 6-7 6-7
01 Indian Wells 64 W RITTNER (GER) 6-3 6-4
01 Indian Wells 32 L CLIJSTERS (BEL) 6-1 4-6 3-6
01 Miami 64 W BOVINA (RUS) 6-2 6-2
01 Miami 32 L GARBIN (ITA) 3-6 1-6
01 Canadian Open 32 W SUGIYAMA (JPN) 6-4 7-6
01 Canadian Open 16 W FRAZIER (USA) 6-3 6-2
01 Canadian Open QF L SELES (USA) 6-1 2-6 2-6
01 New Haven 32 W SVENSSON (SWE) 6-2 6-3
01 New Haven 16 W SCHETT (AUT) 6-3 6-2
01 New Haven QF L V. WILLIAMS (USA) 3-6 7-5 2-6
01 U.S. Open 128 W IRVIN (USA) 6-3 6-3
01 U.S. Open 64 W SCHNYDER (SUI) 6-7 6-1 6-4
01 U.S. Open 32 W VAVRINEC (SUI) 6-3 6-2
01 U.S. Open 16 L S. WILLIAMS (USA) 5-7 0-6
01 Waikoloa 32 W DOMINIKOVIC (AUS) 6-2 6-0
01 Waikoloa 16 W PRATT (AUS) 6-1 6-4
01 Waikoloa QF W CRAYBAS (USA) 6-0 6-4
01 Waikoloa SF W RAYMOND (USA) 6-2 6-2
01 Waikoloa FR L TESTUD (FRA) 3-6 0-2 Ret
-- --------------- --- - ---------------------------
02 Indian Wells 64 W MATEVZIC (SLO) 5-7 6-4 6-4
02 Indian Wells 32 W Ad. SERRA ZANETTI (ITA) 6-3 6-0
02 Indian Wells 16 L HANTUCHOVA (SVK) 3-6 3-6
02 Miami 64 L PISTOLESI (ISR) 7-6 3-6 4-6
02 Stanford 32 L IRVIN (USA) 3-6 6-4 1-6
02 Canadian Open 32 W NAGYOVA (SVK) 5-7 6-0 4-1 Ret
02 Canadian Open 16 W SCHIAVONE (ITA) 6-3 7-6
02 Canadian Open QF L CAPRIATI (USA) 6-4 0-6 2-6
02 New Haven 16 L MYSKINA (RUS) 5-7 2-6
02 U.S. Open 128 W REEVES (USA) 6-1 6-2
02 U.S. Open 64 W BLACK (ZIM) 6-3 6-2
02 U.S. Open 32 W BIELIK (USA) 7-5 6-1
02 U.S. Open 16 L HANTUCHOVA (SVK) 1-6 6-3 6-7
-- --------------- --- - ---------------------------
03 Miami 64 W DOUCHEVINA (RUS) 6-3 6-2
03 Miami 32 W TANASUGARN (THA) 6-2 6-0
03 Miami 16 W WEINGARTNER (GER) 6-1 6-2
03 Miami QF L RUBIN (USA) 3-6 2-6
03 San Diego 32 W DANIILIDOU (GRE) 6-1 6-1





Best wins

00 U.S. Open 32 W KOURNIKOVA (RUS) 6-4 7-6
01 Canadian Open 32 W SUGIYAMA (JPN) 6-4 7-6
01 U.S. Open 64 W SCHNYDER (SUI) 6-7 6-1 6-4
01 Waikoloa SF W RAYMOND (USA) 6-2 6-2
02 Canadian Open 16 W SCHIAVONE (ITA) 6-3 7-6
03 San Diego 32 W DANIILIDOU (GRE) 6-1 6-1

all Losses

99 US Open 128 L MAURESMO (FRA) 1-6 4-6
00 Canadian Open 32 L DAVENPORT (USA) 6-3 6-7 2-6
00 New Haven 16 L COETZER (RSA) 2-6 6-4 1-6
00 U.S. Open 16 L DAVENPORT (USA) 0-6 4-6
01 Scottsdale 32 L SERNA (ESP) 6-7 6-7
01 Indian Wells 32 L CLIJSTERS (BEL) 6-1 4-6 3-6
01 Miami 32 L GARBIN (ITA) 3-6 1-6
01 Canadian Open QF L SELES (USA) 6-1 2-6 2-6
01 New Haven QF L V. WILLIAMS (USA) 3-6 7-5 2-6
01 U.S. Open 16 L S. WILLIAMS (USA) 5-7 0-6
01 Waikoloa FR L TESTUD (FRA) 3-6 0-2 Ret
02 Indian Wells 16 L HANTUCHOVA (SVK) 3-6 3-6
02 Miami 64 L PISTOLESI (ISR) 7-6 3-6 4-6
02 Stanford 32 L IRVIN (USA) 3-6 6-4 1-6
02 Canadian Open QF L CAPRIATI (USA) 6-4 0-6 2-6
02 New Haven 16 L MYSKINA (RUS) 5-7 2-6
02 U.S. Open 16 L HANTUCHOVA (SVK) 1-6 6-3 6-7
03 Miami QF L RUBIN (USA) 3-6 2-6


WHy is she losing to Marissa Irvin in 2002?

02 Indian Wells 16 L HANTUCHOVA (SVK) 3-6 3-6
02 Miami 64 L PISTOLESI (ISR) 7-6 3-6 4-6
02 Stanford 32 L IRVIN (USA) 3-6 6-4 1-6

Both Belgians didn't play well last year on the American hardcourts.

We will see what happens this year (Kim already won 1 tournament).

Kim hasn't lost this year against a player out of the top 4 (except against Ai, Ai later said that Kim told her that she had a lot "female trouble" that day).

Justine lost against Dementieva (having MP) and against Rubin (non-top 4). Both losses surprised me enormously.

Both Belgians combined have this year a 10-0 h2h against Davenport, Capriati, Mauresmo and Seles.

Toontje
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:06 PM
As of Year 2003:

Win/Loss rekord on Hardcourt

Serena 100% Won: Australian open, Paris, Miami
Kim 87.87% Won: Stanford, Indian Wells, Sydney
Venus 87.50% Won: Antwerp
Justine 80% Won: Dubai
Mauresmo 76.92% Won :-
Rubin 73.68% Won: -
Davenport 73.68% Won: -
Capriati 70% Won:-



Australian Open at Melbourne, Australia
January 13, 2003
Surface: Hardcourt
Round Opponent W/L Score
R128 Myriam Casanova (SUI) W 6-3 6-4
R64 Anna Kournikova (RUS) W 6-0 6-1
R32 Katarina Srebotnik (SLO) W 6-2 6-0
R16 Lindsay Davenport (USA) W 7-5 5-7 9-7
QF Virginia Ruano Pascual (ESP) W 6-2 6-2
SF Venus Williams (USA) L 3-6 3-6


3
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
February 17, 2003
Surface: Hardcourt
Round Opponent W/L Score
R32 Bye
R16 Anca Barna (GER) W 1-6 6-2 6-4
QF Anastasia Myskina (RUS) W 6-1 6-4
SF Jennifer Capriati (USA) W 7-5 4-6 6-4
F Monica Seles (USA) W 4-6 7-6(4) 7-5



greetings

Toontje

The Crow
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:07 PM
Well time to break with the tradition, I'd say :)

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:10 PM
Justineīs shown us some improvement on hardcourts, but I canīt see her beating Serena, Venus nor Kim on hardcourts! She did beat Lindsay, but I doubt she can do it on american hardcourts.

alfajeffster
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:13 PM
I think Justine can, and will win alot more titles on hardcourts in the coming years. I don't think she'll get past the semis at the U.S. Open this year, but she has more potential on hardcourts than most of the girls around her. She has made major improvements and grown her game into a more mature, well-rounded allcourt attack. I think if she begins to utilize her terrific slice backhand, and makes the commitment to follow it to the net, she can have a major breakthrough. All the tools are in place, Justine!

sartrista7
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:18 PM
Some Belgian fans are becoming as sensitive and paranoid as some Williams fans. Analysis of results is part and parcel of following tennis closely, and anyone who knows Volcana will be aware that he does this for all players.

ys is right: country certainly does matter. It's highly telling that the hard courts on which Justine has had the greatest success are the slowest around.

I agree with the basic proposition that, relative to her results elsewhere, Justine is not that good on US hard courts (NOTE: not the same as saying that she is flat out not good on them). I think her record will improve this year for two reasons - one, the extra confidence she's gained after winning a Slam, and two, the improvements in her game which have lifted her to new realms of consistency. As of now, though, she's far from being a US Open favourite.

rikvanlooy
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:44 PM
Some Belgian fans are becoming as sensitive and paranoid as some Williams fans. Analysis of results is part and parcel of following tennis closely, and anyone who knows Volcana will be aware that he does this for all players.

ys is right: country certainly does matter. It's highly telling that the hard courts on which Justine has had the greatest success are the slowest around.

I agree with the basic proposition that, relative to her results elsewhere, Justine is not that good on US hard courts (NOTE: not the same as saying that she is flat out not good on them). I think her record will improve this year for two reasons - one, the extra confidence she's gained after winning a Slam, and two, the improvements in her game which have lifted her to new realms of consistency. As of now, though, she's far from being a US Open favourite.

I've seen this a lot from Volcana and I'm happy he does this.

Serena and Venus still seem a lot better than all the rest, but I still feel that Kim comes the closest of all the contenders. The loss against Serena at the Aus Open is a very bad loss. Serena would have had 650 points less and Kim would have had 400 points more (even if she had lost the final against Venus). All the statistics of the averages are being influenced by this match. Kim would have had by now a massive lead on Serena, so it's dangerous to claim Kim doesn't deserve the ranking she has now. I feel Kim could have had a lot more wins (Kim against Justine in Berlin, against Ai, against Venus at Wimbledon, against Serena at the Aus Open).

great smash
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:47 PM
I've seen this a lot from Volcana and I'm happy he does this.

Serena and Venus still seem a lot better than all the rest, but I still feel that Kim comes the closest of all the contenders. The loss against Serena at the Aus Open is a very bad loss. Serena would have had 650 points less and Kim would have had 400 points more (even if she had lost the final against Venus). All the statistics of the averages are being influenced by this match. Kim would have had by now a massive lead on Serena, so it's dangerous to claim Kim doesn't deserve the ranking she has now. I feel Kim could have had a lot more wins (Kim against Justine in Berlin, against Ai, against Venus at Wimbledon, against Serena at the Aus Open).

I don't like statements like this, because it's all 'if's' and 'would have's'.

In a few weeks time she's most likely no. 1 and she'll have earned it.
Let's keep it at that.

fleemkeģ
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:48 PM
could, if, as, would have ... the scores is the only thing that counts!

btw I don't see anything about Kim in sartrista7's post? The post is a good one were even I, a justine-fan, could find myself in ;)

Glenn
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:48 PM
I don't know why Volcano tries to point this out now, as Justine just put up a great performance against a great player on hardcourt.
Maybe it's just because he's bored because Serena and Venus won't play until US Open. :)

rikvanlooy
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:52 PM
could, if, as, would have ... the scores is the only thing that counts!

btw I don't see anything about Kim in sartrista7's post? The post is a good one were even I, a justine-fan, could find myself in ;)

Dat is misschien wel zo, maar er worden ze veel punten geven aan de slams dat 1 match een enorm verschil opleveren. Die ene verloren match zorgt er voor dat Kim nu enorm veel matchen moet winnen om nummer 1 te worden.

Glenn
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:54 PM
Dat is misschien wel zo, maar er worden ze veel punten geven aan de slams dat 1 match een enorm verschil opleveren. Die ene verloren match zorgt er voor dat Kim nu enorm veel matchen moet winnen om nummer 1 te worden.
Verloren is verloren.

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:55 PM
I think that the courts at the Oz were tailor-made for Kimīs game and thatīs why the match was close( besides Serena making so many ufeīs). Anyone saw the result at Nasdaq where the courts are faster?! Kimīs getting closer, no doubt about it! But she still doesnīt have a CLEAR weapon to count on, whereas the sisters always seem to have a weapon! Serena can serve her way out of trouble( even when her shots arenīt falling), Venus always has the court-coverage to force errors, etc. Whereas Kim when her forehand isnīt falling, sheīs toast ( she French Open final.).

Glenn
Jul 30th, 2003, 03:58 PM
I think that the courts at the Oz were tailor-made for Kimīs game and thatīs why the match was close( besides Serena making so many ufeīs). Anyone saw the result at Nasdaq where the courts are faster?! Kimīs getting closer, no doubt about it! But she still doesnīt have a CLEAR weapon to count on, whereas the sisters always seem to have a weapon! Serena can serve her way out of trouble( even when her shots arenīt falling), Venus always has the court-coverage to force errors, etc. Whereas Kim when her forehand isnīt falling, sheīs toast ( she French Open final.).
Serena having weapons to get her out of trouble when she's slumping? Yes.

Venus? I don't know, against Zvonareva and Shaughnessy she was off and she couldn't do anything.
Vera and Meghann weren't THAT good either.

fleemkeģ
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:26 PM
Dat is misschien wel zo, maar er worden ze veel punten geven aan de slams dat 1 match een enorm verschil opleveren. Die ene verloren match zorgt er voor dat Kim nu enorm veel matchen moet winnen om nummer 1 te worden.

Der is niemand die Kim tegenhoudt om minder tornooien te spelen en meer te focussen op de Slam's he?
En zoals Glenn zegt 'verloren is verloren'

minboy
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:35 PM
from wtatour.com:

singles hardcourts leaders 1-100 :
win loss ratio
1.sperm 19 0 1000
2.s.williams 15 0 1000
3.clijsters 28 3 903
4.henin 16 6 843
5.v.williams 16 3 803

7.mauresmo 7 2 778




11.davenport 13 5 772




14 capriati 14 6 700

















44 hantuchova 14 5 583

minboy
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:42 PM
ok, i guess i was mistaken copying the stats otherwise venus could not be ranked lower than justine ( venus holds as many wins as justine with less losses)

DA FOREHAND
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:44 PM
"I feel Kim could have had a lot more wins (Kim against Justine in Berlin, against Ai, against Venus at Wimbledon, against Serena at the Aus Open)."

I don't know about the other matches, but 6-4 2-6 1-6 is not close to winning a match.

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:52 PM
Serena having weapons to get her out of trouble when she's slumping? Yes.

Venus? I don't know, against Zvonareva and Shaughnessy she was off and she couldn't do anything.
Vera and Meghann weren't THAT good either.

I still atribute this loss to Venus not being completely healthy.

lizchris
Jul 30th, 2003, 05:23 PM
I don't know why Volcano tries to point this out now, as Justine just put up a great performance against a great player on hardcourt.
Maybe it's just because he's bored because Serena and Venus won't play until US Open. :)

Unless you know somethng about Venus we don't, she is still scheduled to play in Toronto.

rottweily
Jul 30th, 2003, 05:26 PM
you seem so obsesssed with justine these days........this should be hiding something ( fear?)

Exactly fear of the little one.

justine&coria
Jul 30th, 2003, 06:44 PM
I'm fed up of these threads.
What are these statistics supposed to show ? Justine has improved a lot, and these stats don't mean she'll be beaten once again by Irvin.
Of course, these are bad stats, but can she change the past ? It would take her at least 2 years to make this stats become "positive".
And I think this is Justine's year : i' sure she'll show you how good she is on hardcourts

DA FOREHAND
Jul 30th, 2003, 07:11 PM
With Serena out till the Open, and Venus possibly playing one warm-up, it's a golden oppurtunity.

Hendouble
Jul 30th, 2003, 07:18 PM
"I feel Kim could have had a lot more wins (Kim against Justine in Berlin, against Ai, against Venus at Wimbledon, against Serena at the Aus Open)."

I don't know about the other matches, but 6-4 2-6 1-6 is not close to winning a match.

No, that isn't, but since the actual score was 4-6, 6-3, 6-1 and Clijsters was up a break twice in the second set, at one stage leading *3-2 before losing four straight games, she was fairly close to winning that match. Unfortunately, the nerves got to her again.

Knizzle
Jul 30th, 2003, 07:19 PM
No, that isn't, but since the actual score was 4-6, 6-3, 6-1 and Clijsters was up a break twice in the second set, at one stage leading *3-2 before losing four straight games, she was fairly close to winning that match. Unfortunately, the nerves got to her again.


Venus picked up her level of play at 2-3* and coasted to victory, in classic Venus Williams style.

Hendouble
Jul 30th, 2003, 07:23 PM
No she didn't. She picked up her level of play in the final set, but the last four games of the second set were virtually all gifted by Clijsters. At one stage Venus won six consecutive points off unforced errors from Clijsters, I remember watching it at the time and thinking to myself: I'm glad I'm not putting any money on you in Grand Slam semis for the foreseeable future.

Volcana
Jul 30th, 2003, 07:40 PM
you seem so obsesssed with justine these days........this should be hiding something ( fear?)

Boredom. With Venus out, there's not much to talk about.

Knizzle
Jul 30th, 2003, 07:42 PM
No she didn't. She picked up her level of play in the final set, but the last four games of the second set were virtually all gifted by Clijsters. At one stage Venus won six consecutive points off unforced errors from Clijsters, I remember watching it at the time and thinking to myself: I'm glad I'm not putting any money on you in Grand Slam semis for the foreseeable future.

How many points was Clisters winning from errors off of Venus up until *3-2 in the second set.

Hendouble
Jul 30th, 2003, 07:46 PM
Those errors from Venus were more excusable because they were largely forced by the pain from her stomach injury, which certainly healed up pretty well in the third set. The point is, it was a tight match and the margins were small, but Clijsters was doing just enough to contain Venus; if she'd held on and played the same way she had been doing for three more service games, Venus would have been out of there. And yet Clijsters couldn't keep up her concentration against someone who looked virtually crippled across the other side of the net.

Knizzle
Jul 30th, 2003, 07:53 PM
Those errors from Venus were more excusable because they were largely forced by the pain from her stomach injury, which certainly healed up pretty well in the third set. The point is, it was a tight match and the margins were small, but Clijsters was doing just enough to contain Venus; if she'd held on and played the same way she had been doing for three more service games, Venus would have been out of there. And yet Clijsters couldn't keep up her concentration against someone who looked virtually crippled across the other side of the net.


Venus picked up her level, haven't you seen her do this many times?? Kim couldn't quite catch up to Venus' more agressive shots, and you are right Kim's errors helped doom her in the end of the second set, but before Venus was not getting the balls back or making the errors herself. When Clijsters makes errors though, she can't beat too much of anybody. She should change to a more agressive style of tennis instead of defending and waiting for errors from her opponents. She showed flashes of her agressive side in that match, but it seems never to fail that she reverts back to being defensive only when facing a top player.

Volcana
Jul 30th, 2003, 07:58 PM
I don't know why Volcanoa tries to point this out now, as Justine just put up a great performance against a great player on hardcourt.

Maybe it's just because he's bored because Serena and Venus won't play until US Open. :)

Totally correct on the boredom factor. However, I must take you to task on the other matter.

....great performance against a great player on hardcourt

'great performance'?

Sure as hell.

'against a great player '?

No. Stop. Wait. Daniilidou is not even ranked in the top 20, though she's close (21). She's never won even a Tier II. She's never been close to in condition. Daniilidou SHOULD be a great player. She's got all the tools from the neck down. But she's never had the results to back it up. And when Justine beats (and she will) Dementieva, she won't be beating a great player then either.
The highest ranking player Justine ever beat on hardcourts was Anna K in the 2000 US Open. (And Anna may well have been ranked above #15 at the time, though the slide was already beginning.)

IN CURRENT FORM, the 'great' line stops at ranking #8. On their current form, Monica, Dani and Jelena are not 'great'. Actually, that's not a fair comparison. In Monica's case of course, this is about injuries, but check out Mary Pierce for what repeated injury can do to your form. And in fairness to her, I guess I'll include Anastasia Myskina, even though her game fails to impress. She's holding her ranking while all around her are losing their's (not precisely true, but a fun paraphrase). She gets props for that.

Hendouble
Jul 30th, 2003, 07:59 PM
Venus was still getting lots of shots back right from the start of the match, incredibly so; the difference is that Clijsters wasn't panicking early on and was still keeping up the pressure in the rallies. In the middle of the second set, she got nervous at Venus' retrieving and started going for big winners way too early to end the points and ended up missing the mark alarmingly. For sure, Venus had raised her level by the end, but she was allowed to do that by Clijsters' failure to keep her foot on the pedal when leading in the second set.

ys
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:05 PM
I think all this argument is pretty much irrelevant. Justine didn't do well on US hardcourts in the past. Period. Does it mean that she will be the same useless every summer hardcourt season, including this one? Not necessarily. Compare last year US hardcourt's results of Amelie and her US hardcourt results before that.

Hendouble
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:09 PM
Well, exactly. One of the biggest gripes I have with this board is that people continually use past results and past statistics to try and predict what will happen in the future, without taking into account the way players have improved and matured and how circumstances have changed in tennis. On the men's side, if I'd only taken into account Federer's past record at Wimbledon, I sure as hell wouldn't have expected him to win it this year, but guess what - he improved. There's nothing that says the top women can't do the same.

Knizzle
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:13 PM
Venus was still getting lots of shots back right from the start of the match, incredibly so; the difference is that Clijsters wasn't panicking early on and was still keeping up the pressure in the rallies. In the middle of the second set, she got nervous at Venus' retrieving and started going for big winners way too early to end the points and ended up missing the mark alarmingly. For sure, Venus had raised her level by the end, but she was allowed to do that by Clijsters' failure to keep her foot on the pedal when leading in the second set.

I agree, but Clijsters is responsible for going for those winners(by the way would Clijsters going for winners be classified as agressive play??), so Venus and the pressure of trying close her out got to Clijsters, but she still had one more set to try and win, and she held her first game, but Venus sprinted to the finish line pretty comprehensively after that. Clijsters is a fighter, but not at the end of big matches for whatever reason.

ys
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:17 PM
Well, exactly. One of the biggest gripes I have with this board is that people continually use past results and past statistics to try and predict what will happen in the future

That's logical, what else can they base their prediction on?

without taking into account the way players have improved and matured and how circumstances have changed in tennis.


Improvement and maturing is something that is very difficult to define. It can easily border on wishful thinking. Past results are much more reliable source for predictions.



On the men's side, if I'd only taken into account Federer's past record at Wimbledon,


Beating Samrpas the defending champion surely allowed some kind of conclusion on his ability on the surface.


I sure as hell wouldn't have expected him to win it this year, but guess what - he improved.

Improved since losing to Horna in the first Round of RG? Improved since when? I don't follow..


There's nothing that says the top women can't do the same.

For last 12 years or so there was not a single female player who would be successful on US hardcourts and would rely on the non-slice single-handed backhand as a major weapon. Doesn't mean it won't happen. Just tells that it is not that likely.

Hendouble
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:22 PM
Thank you so much for dissecting my post point by point, it makes it that much harder to respond. My argument still stands - you can't rely solely on past performances as an indicator of what will happen in future. Sure, beating Sampras gave a strong sign of Federer's ability, but that didn't necessarily mean he would win it, he didn't win a match the other three years he played Wimbledon. It's current form that matters the most, and his form improved not only from last year but from last month, when he had that dreadful RG exit.

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:28 PM
The last 5 opens have been won by a Williams. Justine never has taken a set off a Williams on a surface other than clay. Sure, she can improve... but to the content to beat either Williams on their favourite surface?! Donīt think so.

Hendouble
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:33 PM
Well, four to be precise.

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:38 PM
Well, four to be precise.

My bad. :)

Knizzle
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:39 PM
The last 5 opens have been won by a Williams. Justine never has taken a set off a Williams on a surface other than clay. Sure, she can improve... but to the content to beat either Williams on their favourite surface?! Donīt think so.

She has taken sets off Venus on hardcourt, but none off Serena I believe.

fleemkeģ
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:41 PM
Yes you're right knizzle
Final Antwerp was one of them :)

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:43 PM
Antwerp was more like carpet if Iīm not mistaken.

Knizzle
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:45 PM
Antwerp was more like carpet if Iīm not mistaken.

Antwerp is indoor hardcourt. The other set she took off of Venus was at New Haven 2001. She only has 2 sets off Venus on Hard.

fleemkeģ
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:47 PM
Antwerp was more like carpet if Iīm not mistaken.


Well as they said 'favo underground' i was just thinking on fast surfaces ...

For the record:

2003 Australian Open - Melbourne Park, Australia semi's 3-6, 3-6
Hardcourt
2002 Wimbledon - All England Lawn Tennis Club semi's: 3-6, 2-6
Grass
2002 Proximus Diamond Games - Antwerp, Belgium Final : 3-6, 7-5, 3-6
Hardcourt
Hardcourt Verloren
2001 Pilot Pen - New Haven, CT, USA quaters: 3-6, 7-5, 2-6
Hardcourt
2001 Wimbledon - All England Lawn Tennis Club Finale : 1-6, 6-3, 0-6
Grass

all won by Venus!

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:49 PM
Well as they said 'favo underground' i was just thinking on fast surfaces ...

For the record:

2003 Australian Open - Melbourne Park, Australia semi's 3-6, 3-6
Hardcourt
2002 Wimbledon - All England Lawn Tennis Club semi's: 3-6, 2-6
Grass
2002 Proximus Diamond Games - Antwerp, Belgium Final : 3-6, 7-5, 3-6
Hardcourt
Hardcourt Verloren
2001 Pilot Pen - New Haven, CT, USA quaters: 3-6, 7-5, 2-6
Hardcourt
2001 Wimbledon - All England Lawn Tennis Club Finale : 1-6, 6-3, 0-6
Grass

all won by Venus!

Justine sure never did recover from that Amelia final.

Lien
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:54 PM
Past results don't necessarily mean a thing. I remember people saying Kim was bad on grass well yeah she still reached the SF. Since last year Justine has improved a lot esp mentally, I think she could at least get into the QF. Hardcourt will never be her favourite underground but still that doesn't mean she can't have good results on it, comparing past results isn't always useful. Venus and Serena never made past the (correct me if I am wrong please) QF I think at the OZ Open and still this year they both stood into the final.

Knizzle
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:56 PM
Past results don't necessarily mean a thing. I remember people saying Kim was bad on grass well yeah she still reached the SF. Since last year Justine has improved a lot esp mentally, I think she could at least get into the QF. Hardcourt will never be her favourite underground but still that doesn't mean she can't have good results on it, comparing past results isn't always useful. Venus and Serena never made past the (correct me if I am wrong please) QF I think at the OZ Open and still this year they both stood into the final.

Venus made the SF in 2001, but we catch your drift.

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:58 PM
Past results don't necessarily mean a thing. I remember people saying Kim was bad on grass well yeah she still reached the SF. Since last year Justine has improved a lot esp mentally, I think she could at least get into the QF. Hardcourt will never be her favourite underground but still that doesn't mean she can't have good results on it, comparing past results isn't always useful. Venus and Serena never made past the (correct me if I am wrong please) QF I think at the OZ Open and still this year they both stood into the final.

Venus made the semiīs in ī01 but got beaten VERY BADLy by Hingis. Still you canīt compare the Williams situation with the Justine situation. The Oz is a kind of hardcourt, only a bit slower. It was just a matter before they adjusted. Justineīs problems are more than just mental...

gregē
Jul 30th, 2003, 08:58 PM
Justine practised a lot this winter and the dubai-tournament gave her lots of confidence on the HC. Beating Jenjen, beating Seles after the matchballs :worship: Juju :worship:
I think, she 'll be able to show good form and beat the top ten players. But I'm not sure if she 'll be able to compete with the sisters or kim :D

Volcana
Jul 30th, 2003, 09:15 PM
My argument still stands - you can't rely solely on past performances as an indicator of what will happen in future.

Past performances are facts.

I'll consider any other FACT.

Projections made based on how you HOPE she will have improved are wishes and guesses, dressed up nice.

rottweily
Jul 30th, 2003, 09:22 PM
Boredom. With Venus out, there's not much to talk about.

Better get used to it. I don't see Venus playing more than now in the near future with her motivation.

rottweily
Jul 30th, 2003, 09:23 PM
Venus made the semiīs in ī01 but got beaten VERY BADLy by Hingis. Still you canīt compare the Williams situation with the Justine situation. The Oz is a kind of hardcourt, only a bit slower. It was just a matter before they adjusted. Justineīs problems are more than just mental...

Where do you see mental problems ??

~|Naomi|~
Jul 30th, 2003, 10:51 PM
I thought this thread was supposed to be about Henin :confused:

ANyway Henin will have her best season on the American hard courts ( I know she won gold coast and canberra a few years ago but they're not in America as isnn't Dubai) she ever has, she should make her first final in san Diego, the draw is way open for her now and if she capitalises on that she should be in a very good position to win the final as she will be fresh.

I don't know how she will go at the US Open but I'll guess QF or SF

bandabou
Jul 30th, 2003, 10:55 PM
Where do you see mental problems ??

I just said that because of Justineīs lack of power compared to the sisters and Kim it would still be very difficult for Justine to make a dent at the Open.

Fingon
Jul 31st, 2003, 12:06 AM
I think all this argument is pretty much irrelevant. Justine didn't do well on US hardcourts in the past. Period. Does it mean that she will be the same useless every summer hardcourt season, including this one? Not necessarily. Compare last year US hardcourt's results of Amelie and her US hardcourt results before that.


I agree

Fingon
Jul 31st, 2003, 12:16 AM
Past performances are facts.

I'll consider any other FACT.

Projections made based on how you HOPE she will have improved are wishes and guesses, dressed up nice.

past performances are facts.

no doubts about it however, what matters is not whether they are facts or not but how you interpretate those facts, how you project them to the future.

First, the player's ability, obviously past's results happened (among other things) due the the player's ability at that time, that might change.

Look at Serena, before 2002 she hadn't been past the quarters of a big clay tournaments, in 2002 she won a tier 1 and a grand slam.

Second, intangibles that can be present now and not in the past, the most important being confidence and respect by other players. Justine is obvioulsy a lot more confident than she was last year and also, she gets more respect from her opponents and that helps, in fact, Justine not playing well after FO won a number of matches just because of that.

Third, you have to evaluate past records analyzing what happened, not only the result (good example, Justine's loss to Kapros or Marissa Irvin).

Normally, past results are not good enough, especially in cases like Justine, that really hasn't had at all respectable results on US hardcourts, her results are under par for a top 3 player.

Take Kim last year, based not only in the past but her most recent form, from Rome to US Open, would you have predicted she would have such a good indoor season? of course, she had that shoulder injury but if you looked only at the results you wouldn't know would you?

Fingon
Aug 3rd, 2003, 10:37 PM
:tape:

Juju_fan
Aug 3rd, 2003, 10:41 PM
lol @ this thread :haha:

ns_Henin
Aug 6th, 2003, 03:52 AM
And Justine is the winner of 2003 Acura Classic :bounce:

saki
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:22 PM
And Justine is the winner of the Rogers A & T Cup too! :bounce:

Hingiswinsthis
Aug 17th, 2003, 08:33 PM
:lol:

ps: Fingon, i like ur Justine site very much:wavey:, keeps me informed all the time about Justine:)

Greenout
Nov 4th, 2003, 12:21 AM
Oh- this was a funny one. Yeah...sure...Justine
totally sucks. Yeah- sure. Keep on hoping
dreaming.