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alfajeffster
Jul 29th, 2003, 04:36 PM
Now here's an interesting rivarlry- pretty much orchestrated to stay 9-9 head to head by Navratilova, who avoided playing Steffi at all cost the last 3 years of her career. She avoided Graf's schedule, skipped the Australian Open (but curiously showed up at the Pan Pacific the following week), and generally did everything she could to keep from playing Steffi.

irma
Jul 29th, 2003, 04:39 PM
I don't think nav skipped tournaments because of steffi

I mean monica fans say the same about steffi and it's ridiculous. steffi played the same schedule as always but hilton head (no monica either)
then they say she skipped summertournaments because of monica while she only skipped tournaments where monica was not anyway and once monica entered a replacement for steffi (canada 92)

so I think such things are crap

irma
Jul 29th, 2003, 04:40 PM
that said steffi might have skipped amelia islamd after 92 :p

alfajeffster
Jul 29th, 2003, 04:43 PM
Well, let's see: how many clay court tournaments did Navratilova play 91-94? How many Australian Opens in that same period? How many West Coast hardcourt tune-ups to the U.S. Open during that same period? These are, in fact, interesting statistics, and they do prove my point.

irma
Jul 29th, 2003, 04:46 PM
nav got old. it's normal she reduced her schedule.

nav didn't play hardcourt tournaments in 91. I don't know why (think she was in court) but steffi did neither because of her shoulder. at fed cup she could not even slice anymore

irma
Jul 29th, 2003, 04:47 PM
I am talking about summer tournaments

alfajeffster
Jul 29th, 2003, 04:47 PM
nav got old. it's normal she reduced her schedule.

nav didn't play hardcourt tournaments in 91. I don't know why (think she was in court) but steffi did neither because of her shoulder. at fed cup she could not even slice anymore

One of the best matches of the year in 1991 was the semi Graf vs. Navratilova, which Martina won fair and square. It was a well played match by both players, I must admit.

irma
Jul 29th, 2003, 04:48 PM
in 92 steffi played olympics and then pulled out of canada and monica played instead but if monica had refused then steffi would have been forced to play or something like that

weird story :o

irma
Jul 29th, 2003, 04:49 PM
One of the best matches of the year in 1991 was the semi Graf vs. Navratilova, which Martina won fair and square. It was a well played match by both players, I must admit.

I have my own opinion;)

irma
Jul 29th, 2003, 04:53 PM
to be fair I can't remember it so well anymore though. only where I watched it. not the level or so;)

nav was steffi's bitch at the us open

DA FOREHAND
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:13 PM
1985-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-2 6-3
1985-09-30 Fort Lauderdale Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-3 6-1
1986-03-17 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-2 6-2
1986-05-12 Berlin Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-3
1986-08-25 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-1 6-7 7-6
1986-11-17 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-3 6-2
1987-02-23 Key Biscayne Hardcourt SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 6-2
1987-05-25 Roland Garros Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 4-6 8-6
1987-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-5 6-3
1987-08-31 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-1
1988-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 5-7 6-2 6-1
1989-06-26 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-7 6-1
1989-08-28 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Steffi Graf (GER) 3-6 7-5 6-1
1989-11-13 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 7-5 2-6 6-2
1991-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-7 6-4
1992-10-05 Zurich Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 2-6 7-5 7-5
1993-02-01 Tokyo Indoor Carpet SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 4-6 6-3 6-3
1994-01-31 Tokyo Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-4
Tied 9:9
Hard: Martina Navratilova (USA) leads 5:2
Clay: Steffi Graf (GER) leads 2:0
Grass: Steffi Graf (GER) leads 2:1
Indoor: Tied 3:3

raquel
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:29 PM
Well, let's see: how many clay court tournaments did Navratilova play 91-94?
Martina barely played on clay in the 90's, she would even miss the French because she knew in the early 90s she still had a good chance at Wimbledon and would save herself for the grass. I don't think it was to avoid Steffi Graf. Everyone who played with a Yonex racquet HAD to play the Pan Pacific, I think it was in the contract, so that might explain why Martina would avoid Australia but play Japan the week after. It looks like it was a good rivalry, I think if Martina consistently attacked Steffi's backhand she would always have a chance which is probably why Martina still pushed Steffi into 3 sets even when she was 36, 37.

irma
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:31 PM
monica never played the pan pacific in the early ninties she pulled out at the last minute in 91

irma
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:32 PM
I say that because monica was with yonex too if I remember well

alfajeffster
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:35 PM
1988-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 5-7 6-2 6-1
1989-06-26 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-7 6-1
1989-08-28 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Steffi Graf (GER) 3-6 7-5 6-1
1989-11-13 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 7-5 2-6 6-2
1991-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-7 6-4
1992-10-05 Zurich Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 2-6 7-5 7-5
1993-02-01 Tokyo Indoor Carpet SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 4-6 6-3 6-3
1994-01-31 Tokyo Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-4

My point exactly. 6 of the last 8 matches is pretty convincing evidence.

bilal
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:35 PM
alfajeffster
Now please don't make a Steffi-Martina H thread after this one! We've had sooo many arguments.. won't prove anything!

irma
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:36 PM
nav fans always come with that 2:2 but they never say nav beat monica at their last match too

alfajeffster
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:40 PM
alfajeffster
Now please don't make a Steffi-Martina H thread after this one! We've had sooo many arguments.. won't prove anything!

I promise not to- WAY too much evidence on the record books there. It would be like a Steffi-Sanchez Vicario or Steffi-Sabatini thread, kinda useless. Actually, I'd much rather talk about the classic players like Court, King, Goolagong, Wade, Bueno, but very few people here seem to care about those players any more.

bilal
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:40 PM
and I don't think Martina ever skipped a tournament to avoid playing a Steffi or a Monica!

bilal
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:42 PM
I don't think Steffi and Martina ever had a match where they were both playing their best ( neither did Steffi and Monica IMHO).

irma
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:43 PM
I don't think either but monica fans claim that for steffi but they don't have evidence

or do they believe steffi skipped rome and la because of monica. that she thought in 88 I love the italian press and smog but one day monica plays her so I can better skip;)

raquel
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:45 PM
I don't think Steffi and Martina ever had a match where they were both playing their best ( neither did Steffi and Monica IMHO).
Well I have never seen the match but that 1986 US Open semi is supposed to be a real classic match, so I guess they both played well that day.

Alfajeffster - there is a Blast From The Past forum here where people do care about those players ;)

irma
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:46 PM
yeah and I whine about steffi there too;)

alfajeffster
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:47 PM
Well I have never seen the match but that 1986 US Open semi is supposed to be a real classic match, so I guess they both played well that day.

Alfajeffster - there is a Blast From The Past forum here where people do care about those players ;)

I was there earlier today- not very much traffic, unfortunately...

tennisjam
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:48 PM
...Steffi is the greatest ever and forever in the entire Universe :angel: :wavey: :worship: ;)

tennisjam
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:51 PM
even in doubles... :angel: ;)

irma
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:51 PM
and in mixed (no double standards;))

alfajeffster
Jul 29th, 2003, 05:55 PM
Here's a monkeywrench:

Graf vs. Renee Richards

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

macn
Jul 29th, 2003, 06:18 PM
My point exactly. 6 of the last 8 matches is pretty convincing evidence.


What's so convincing about a player past their prime still beating and taking sets of the #1 player of the time. It only shows that Navratilova was superior!

irma
Jul 29th, 2003, 06:22 PM
but then nav was superior over monica too;)

alfajeffster
Jul 29th, 2003, 06:40 PM
What's so convincing about a player past their prime still beating and taking sets of the #1 player of the time. It only shows that Navratilova was superior!

Let's see, where shall we start? Okay, let's start with Anna Kournikova, on form in the 4th round of the 1999 French Open- GAME, SET, MATCH, MADMOISELLE GRAF!!! Then Lindsay Davenport, then Monica Seles, then Martina Hingis.

Martina Navratilova never had these kind of wins in her prime, let alone that heavenly stretch when she was past her prime, protecting her records, and avoiding all the top players by manipulating her schedule around theirs...

DA FOREHAND
Jul 29th, 2003, 06:46 PM
That was an awesome run I have three of those matches on tape.

hingis-seles
Jul 29th, 2003, 06:52 PM
Martina Navratilova easily trumps Graf as the greatest player of all-time. No comparison.

To quote a certain poster on this board,"That's what I love about numbers. You can't distort them."

irma
Jul 29th, 2003, 06:54 PM
steffi agrees. she didn't even name herself in a list when talking about it after retirement;)

hingis-seles
Jul 29th, 2003, 06:58 PM
Since no one else has brought it up, let me:

Steffi's numbers are inflated because of the stabbing.

alfajeffster
Jul 29th, 2003, 07:13 PM
Okay- I'm tired of this one- let's beat this topic like a dead Seles!

Jakeev
Jul 29th, 2003, 09:16 PM
Martina barely played on clay in the 90's, she would even miss the French because she knew in the early 90s she still had a good chance at Wimbledon and would save herself for the grass. I don't think it was to avoid Steffi Graf. Everyone who played with a Yonex racquet HAD to play the Pan Pacific, I think it was in the contract, so that might explain why Martina would avoid Australia but play Japan the week after. It looks like it was a good rivalry, I think if Martina consistently attacked Steffi's backhand she would always have a chance which is probably why Martina still pushed Steffi into 3 sets even when she was 36, 37.



Good job raquel.....curious why the originator of this thread could not come up with that.......

KV
Jul 29th, 2003, 09:19 PM
Normally I'd say Graf vs. Navratilova all square. But when you add doubles tittles. Adv. Navratilova.

alfajeffster
Jul 29th, 2003, 09:31 PM
Normally I'd say Graf vs. Navratilova all square. But when you add doubles tittles. Adv. Navratilova.

Good point- Navratilova is ahead on my all-time greats list, which includes doubles and mixed. Isn't it ironic that Martina only recently started playing mixed doubles? Hmmm?!? Wonder how many more Majors she can squeeze out of the current crop of men who are doubles specialists?

Grafan
Jul 29th, 2003, 11:10 PM
i have much respect on martina because she has done so much for tennis and even this year has won 2 doubles mixed slams, and its incredible.

Peter M
Jul 29th, 2003, 11:21 PM
I say that because monica was with yonex too if I remember well

I don't know about Martina's Yonex contract, but Monica's permitted her to play either Pan Pacific or the Princess Cup. Monica usually chose the Princess Cup which took place after the US Open.

Anyway, it is crazy to say that Navratilova was avoiding Steffi. She is a professional.

Caz
Jul 29th, 2003, 11:59 PM
Everytime I see Martina out there on court now I'm just amazed that she can still be there and still be winning. It's just an incredible feat that I think would be hard to be matched by anyone else. She is just so incredibly competitive, I remember Gallofa and I joking, during her mixed match against Raymond and Bryan at Wimbledon, about how she and Leander would end up winning 'cos Martina wanted to win the match so much more than the other three put together!

As for all time greats, if we're just talking about the greatest singles player then probably Steffi, however, if we're talking about the all around greatest player ever in my mind there's no doubt that that's Martina.

disposablehero
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:10 AM
Maybe Martina avoided Steffi in the 90's. If so, she shouldn't have since their head to head was 2-2.

Zummi
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:28 AM
Martina's management company is IMG. Graf's is/was Advantage (now known as Octagon). Throughout their careers, they were more likely than not to play at events owned by their management companies. Which is one reason why Martina & Monica played many of the same non-Grand Slam events - they were both IMG clients. If Martina was so eager to avoid Graf, it would reason that she would similarly avoid Monica and that was clearly not the case.

Martina skipped the French from 1989 onwards (when she turned 32) till 1994, but she did play a fair number of clay events each year, notably Hilton Head Island, Amelia Island & Rome, and occasional forays to Houston, Hamburg & Barcelona. In 1988, both she & Graf were entered in Amelia Island, where Graf lost in the semis & Martina won the tournament. In 1990, Martina entered Hamburg but lost in the semis, Graf won the event. In 1989, Martina was also scheduled to make a return to Berlin but had to pull out due to injury. It's no surprise why she played in Rome most of the time - Rome is owned by IMG, just as Berlin was owned by Advantage.

Martina & Graf both played in Tokyo in 1991, 1993 & 1994. They were both entered in Chicago in 1992, where Graf lost in the semis to Novotna; and both played in Zurich that same year. They were both entered in San Diego in 1990, where Martina had to withdraw due to a sprained ankle sustained in a practice session the day before her opening match. Graf was supposed to play in Chicago in 1990 but withdrew after her thumb injury; Martina won the tournament. They were also scheduled to play in Montreal in 1992, but both withdrew.

Martina did not play the Australian Open from 1990 onwards b/c at her age, she needed the longer off season. She always said if the AO was held a month later, she'd never have skipped it.

There were only two West Coast hardcourt events in the early 90s - San Diego & Manhattan Beach. Martina played Manhattan Beach regularly except in 1991 when she did not play any summer hardcourt warmups b/c of her legal troubles at the time.

The contract with Yonex required players to play a tournament in Japan, not specifically the Pan Pacific. In the early 90s, Monica chose to play at the Nicherei Ladies event in the fall (later known as the Princess Cup). Martina played there once in 1990 as she had missed the Pan Pacific that year.

irma
Jul 30th, 2003, 04:33 AM
steffi hated rome. that's why she did not play
same for la. she was complaining about the smog

she returned in 96 because she refused to play in germany (then she changed her mind anyway)
and because she need matchpractice

the only thing I don't know is why stefi skipped hilton head and played amelia island. I mean why play a tournament when you know the ending anyway;)

Philbo
Jul 30th, 2003, 07:03 AM
Alfrajeff - YOu are a complete fucking idiotic moron!!!

Quite easy to pick out the 6 out of 8 stat in their head to head, BUT IT MUST REALLY EAT AWAY AT YOU THAT A 34-38 YEAR OLD NAVRATILOVA WENT 2-2 IN THEIR LAST 4 VICTORIES WHILE GRAF WAS IN HER PRIME!!!

Fact is that Martina beat Steffi and Seles within 2 weeks of each other as a 37 year old, so your pathetic arguments about avoiding Steffi are fucking laughable...


I see Martina's recent succes has made you COMPLETELY insecure about Graf's ARGUABLE position as best ever, so you feel the neet to attack Navratilova..Its so transparent...

As it is, Navratilova could compete roughly equally with Graf, well past her peak, so at her peak, MARTINA WOULD VOLEY AWAY GRAF's PATHETIC BACKHAND TIME AFTER TIME AFTER TIME...

The fact is Navratilova dominated to a level GRAF NEVER reached...

72 matches ina row, 6 slams in a row, a year with only 1 lost match, a 56 match winning streak following on from the 72 match one....the records speak for themselves...

YES, Steffi won all 4 slams at least 4 times, with the help of Gunther Parche (its been talked about to death but remains FACT)

and you're just gonna have to learn to live with it LOSER!

Philbo
Jul 30th, 2003, 07:05 AM
Alrajeff Lets see you avoid answering Zummi's post where he shows what a friggin moron you are who just speaks out of his ass with no real idea....

Read and learn wanker.

hingis-seles
Jul 30th, 2003, 07:54 AM
Alfrajeff - YOu are a complete fucking idiotic moron!!!

Quite easy to pick out the 6 out of 8 stat in their head to head, BUT IT MUST REALLY EAT AWAY AT YOU THAT A 34-38 YEAR OLD NAVRATILOVA WENT 2-2 IN THEIR LAST 4 VICTORIES WHILE GRAF WAS IN HER PRIME!!!

Fact is that Martina beat Steffi and Seles within 2 weeks of each other as a 37 year old, so your pathetic arguments about avoiding Steffi are fucking laughable...


I see Martina's recent succes has made you COMPLETELY insecure about Graf's ARGUABLE position as best ever, so you feel the neet to attack Navratilova..Its so transparent...

As it is, Navratilova could compete roughly equally with Graf, well past her peak, so at her peak, MARTINA WOULD VOLEY AWAY GRAF's PATHETIC BACKHAND TIME AFTER TIME AFTER TIME...

The fact is Navratilova dominated to a level GRAF NEVER reached...

72 matches ina row, 6 slams in a row, a year with only 1 lost match, a 56 match winning streak following on from the 72 match one....the records speak for themselves...

YES, Steffi won all 4 slams at least 4 times, with the help of Gunther Parche (its been talked about to death but remains FACT)

and you're just gonna have to learn to live with it LOSER!

Perfect reply! :bowdown: :worship:

While we're at it, let's just clear one thing up. What's up with the greatest ever singles player? There should be no such thing. There is only a greatest tennis player, good in every facet of the game and that's where Navratilova wins hands down.

irma
Jul 30th, 2003, 10:10 AM
people always make things up to fit their favs and so that greatest singles player came up;)

hingis-seles
Jul 30th, 2003, 10:15 AM
LOL, Irma! Well, in that case, let me add that Monica is the greatest double-handed player of all-time. Oh, and I'm a hottie.;) :p

BasicTennis
Jul 30th, 2003, 10:21 AM
These past champions are the best only during their respective times. IMO, there’s no such thing as best ever in tennis.

To be the best ever, she’ll have to play until she dies and will have to beat everyone in a consistent basis.:yawn:

hingis-seles
Jul 30th, 2003, 10:22 AM
Nobody's the best ever till they beat Nathalie Tauziat on grass. Sorry Margaret Court and Chris Evert. :p

BasicTennis
Jul 30th, 2003, 11:15 AM
nathalie is one of the best professors, however, all the great skills she was able to impart to others, she wasn't able to apply it to her own benifit and this is the reason why she's slamless.;)

tennisjam
Jul 30th, 2003, 11:32 AM
this becomes childlish... :rolleyes:

ok, Steffi is the greatest ever and forever in the entire Universe :angel:

...now go to sleep ... :wavey:

hingis-seles
Jul 30th, 2003, 11:39 AM
pfff @ Steffi! :rolleyes:

irma
Jul 30th, 2003, 11:40 AM
:worship:@steffi

tennisjam
Jul 30th, 2003, 12:55 PM
...once I saw Steffi outclassing Navratilova by playing serve-volley on every point... ;)

That was huge and from that moment on, any doubt was not permitted...Graf is the best net playere of the game... :angel:

Philbo
Jul 31st, 2003, 05:32 AM
Wheres Aljeffstar now?? Conspicuously absent...pathetic grafanatic # 101..

louloubelle
Jul 31st, 2003, 08:00 AM
Steffi hated Rome after they called her 'ugly but we must admit unbeatable'.

Then she said she would return only if they paid her appearance money! Rome replied: we pay no woman appearance money!!!

Funny old thread this one..... but like Zummi and Rachel.... at the end of it all Martina was focussing on Wimby thereby bypassing the French, but preparing on US clay to ensure match fitness. She needed a layoff during Christmas and maybe Aspen and skiing was calling out to her as well ;)

She played so well against Monnie and Steffi at the end when the pressure was off her, that Im sure she was excited to play them when the opportunity came.

Original_Whisper
Aug 1st, 2003, 11:01 AM
All even?

Graf has won the grand slam. Graf has at least 5 of each blue-chip slam, Navratilova has 2.

Navratilova is 2nd best, but she's a considerable margin behind Graf - obviously....

irma
Aug 1st, 2003, 11:03 AM
Steffi hated Rome after they called her 'ugly but we must admit unbeatable'.

Then she said she would return only if they paid her appearance money! Rome replied: we pay no woman appearance money!!!

Funny old thread this one..... but like Zummi and Rachel.... at the end of it all Martina was focussing on Wimby thereby bypassing the French, but preparing on US clay to ensure match fitness. She needed a layoff during Christmas and maybe Aspen and skiing was calling out to her as well ;)

She played so well against Monnie and Steffi at the end when the pressure was off her, that Im sure she was excited to play them when the opportunity came.

I doubt steffi had played rome anyway after 88 considering she had contracts with the german tennisbond to play hamburg and berlin

Original_Whisper
Aug 1st, 2003, 11:17 AM
Martina Navratilova easily trumps Graf as the greatest player of all-time. No comparison.

To quote a certain poster on this board,"That's what I love about numbers. You can't distort them."


Yes, well said.

The numbers (which can't be disputed);

- Graf 22 slams, MN 18
- Graf 8 yrs no.1, MN 7
- Graf 'Golden Grand Slam', MN - no
- Graf 13 straight slam finals
- Graf has won more USO, FO & AO titles than MN
- Graf retired just as she turned 30, but her career really finished at 27 due to injuries. MN played til 38.
- Graf won 3 slams in a yr *5 times*, MN 2
- Graf has won each blue-chip slam at least 5 times, MN 2.
- Graf was a true all-court player (7 slams on grass, 6 on clay, 9 hardcourts, + 5 Masters indoors). MN only won 2 slams on clay.

There's more, but I don't want to overkill MN - I like her & she is a clear no.2 in my book....

Original_Whisper
Aug 1st, 2003, 11:21 AM
No, they are deflated. I honestly think she woulda won 2 more slams (ie 24 total) if not for the stabbing....

You know it's true (can't be that dumb?)...

irma
Aug 1st, 2003, 11:25 AM
my fav quote 99,9999999999999999999999999999999999999% players would love to have two french open titles and they are named clayspecialists

Original_Whisper
Aug 1st, 2003, 11:31 AM
Alfrajeff - YOu are a complete fucking idiotic moron!!!

Quite easy to pick out the 6 out of 8 stat in their head to head, BUT IT MUST REALLY EAT AWAY AT YOU THAT A 34-38 YEAR OLD NAVRATILOVA WENT 2-2 IN THEIR LAST 4 VICTORIES WHILE GRAF WAS IN HER PRIME!!!


Yes, MN is awesome. She most certainly was the best ever singles player until Graf supplanted her....



Fact is that Martina beat Steffi and Seles within 2 weeks of each other as a 37 year old, so your pathetic arguments about avoiding Steffi are fucking laughable...

I agree. MN wasn't scared - she relished the challenge, even though her nerves were brittle at times (in close matches)...



I see Martina's recent succes has made you COMPLETELY insecure about Graf's ARGUABLE position as best ever, so you feel the neet to attack Navratilova..Its so transparent...


It's not 'arguable'. Graf is without a shadow of a doubt the best ever singles player. You do realize she should've won 5 grand slams, not just the one she did win....?



As it is, Navratilova could compete roughly equally with Graf, well past her peak, so at her peak, MARTINA WOULD VOLEY AWAY GRAF's PATHETIC BACKHAND TIME AFTER TIME AFTER TIME...

Maybe, but overall Graf had more weapons & at her best would beat MN at her best something like 6-4 6-4......



The fact is Navratilova dominated to a level GRAF NEVER reached...

Graf won 3 slams per yr *5 times* - MN only twice. It's clear Graf had far more dominant seasons than MN.



72 matches ina row, 6 slams in a row, a year with only 1 lost match, a 56 match winning streak following on from the 72 match one....the records speak for themselves...

Yes, she was awesome & clearly the 2nd best ever.


YES, Steffi won all 4 slams at least 4 times, with the help of Gunther Parche (its been talked about to death but remains FACT)

It's not a fact. You do realize Seles had only 1 convincing slam win in her whole career? She was probably a yr away from slipping from 'slam winning' level (ala Hingis/Wilander/Hewitt etc)...

Graf kept winning slams & beating the best players til the bitter end (eg '99 FO she beat top 3 players in a row)... Seles couldn't play anywhere near that level from age 20....


and you're just gonna have to learn to live with it LOSER!


You make some good points, but are retarded in your assessment of Graf's record.....

Philbo
Aug 1st, 2003, 12:02 PM
You make some good points, but are retarded in your assessment of Graf's record.....


Original Whisper - Who are you really?? No need to hide behind a new username...

You (try) to make some good points, but unfortunately there is one major difference between the stats I listed, and the stats you listed.. Martina achieved hers on her own!!

No-one stabbed Chris Evert to pave the way for martina a la Gunther Parche...

I know you've heard it many times, but thats because its fact...

LOL@ u saying Monica was 1 slam away from not winning...

She had won 6 out of 8 previous slams entered...That one point illustrates your denial... She was the clear # 1 player in the world..

Navratilova was usurped as #1 by Graf as a 30/31 year old slightly past her peak, (as it shoud be), Graf was knocked off # 1 AT HER PEAK, and only returned there due to her # 1 fan...

Thanks for coming.

hingis-seles
Aug 1st, 2003, 12:38 PM
Original Whisper - Who are you really?? No need to hide behind a new username...

You (try) to make some good points, but unfortunately there is one major difference between the stats I listed, and the stats you listed.. Martina achieved hers on her own!!

No-one stabbed Chris Evert to pave the way for martina a la Gunther Parche...

I know you've heard it many times, but thats because its fact...

LOL@ u saying Monica was 1 slam away from not winning...

She had won 6 out of 8 previous slams entered...That one point illustrates your denial... She was the clear # 1 player in the world..

Navratilova was usurped as #1 by Graf as a 30/31 year old slightly past her peak, (as it shoud be), Graf was knocked off # 1 AT HER PEAK, and only returned there due to her # 1 fan...

Thanks for coming.

Actually Monica had won 7 of the past 8 majors she had entered before the stabbing and her won-loss record at the past 8 majors she had played was 55-1.

Don't bother wasting your time on Original_Whisper. It's not it's fault that it has a single digit I.Q. and finds Graf's father's affairs a bigger tragedy than Monica's attempted murder.

nash
Aug 1st, 2003, 08:57 PM
I watched them both play in their primes, and to me Steffi has the edge. Martina was awesome on grass, but Steffi eventually overtook her there, as well. On all other surfaces, Steffi at her prime was superior, IMO.

Martina changed tennis with her commitment to fitness. When Steffi came along and took both Martina and Chris down, it was an amazing thing to watch. Martina was supposed to be unbeatable, then suddenly along came Steffi just walloping that forehand all over the place. The way she took over tennis was the most amazing thing I've ever seen in sports. For those of you who weren't tennis fans in the late 80's, try watching a few of their Wimbledon and US Open finals. In 88/89, Martina was absolutely intimidated by Steffi's power. No doubt about it.

Pamela Shriver
Aug 1st, 2003, 08:58 PM
Graf vs. Navratilova? Does it matter?






Because I was better than both of them anyways.

irma
Aug 1st, 2003, 09:13 PM
yeah we know that, making a young sick steffi cry

bitch :p

hingis-seles
Aug 1st, 2003, 09:18 PM
Pam!!! :worship: :bowdown:

But were you better than Nathalie Tauziat? :p

Pamela Shriver
Aug 1st, 2003, 10:31 PM
hingis-seles, sheesh of course I'm better than Nat the TauziRat. She has no neck for starters.

Nathalie_Tauziat
Aug 1st, 2003, 10:47 PM
hingis-seles, sheesh of course I'm better than Nat the TauziRat. She has no neck for starters.
I have une neck Shriver :fiery:
Look here is my neck, pictured here as I model clothes for Jane Henman!
http://www.vogliadidonne.it/sportive/nathalie_tauziat/images/nathalie_tauziat01_scan01.jpg

Virginia Wade
Aug 1st, 2003, 10:55 PM
Modelling clothes for the under-takers more like :rolleyes:

Original_Whisper
Aug 2nd, 2003, 11:02 AM
Original Whisper - Who are you really?? No need to hide behind a new username...

You (try) to make some good points, but unfortunately there is one major difference between the stats I listed, and the stats you listed.. Martina achieved hers on her own!!

No-one stabbed Chris Evert to pave the way for martina a la Gunther Parche...

I know you've heard it many times, but thats because its fact...

LOL@ u saying Monica was 1 slam away from not winning...

She had won 6 out of 8 previous slams entered...That one point illustrates your denial... She was the clear # 1 player in the world..

Navratilova was usurped as #1 by Graf as a 30/31 year old slightly past her peak, (as it shoud be), Graf was knocked off # 1 AT HER PEAK, and only returned there due to her # 1 fan...

Thanks for coming.


I usually post on RST as Whisper, but apparently that name was already taken. This is my 1st time here. One of the posters here suggested I visit as it appears there are many uninformed & clueless posters here. While that's true, it also appears overall the level of knowledge here is greater than in RST.

You're assuming the stabbing helped Graf - no, sadly mistaken. MN was lucky Evert wasn't stabbed. In a way Seles was too, as it gives her a tenous excuse for failing after age 20.

Yes, seles was the clear no.1 as she won 6 out of 8 slams, but why was Graf losing to players she was whipping before '90 & after '92?

And how come Graf thrashed Seles 6-2 6-1 in the biggest match of seles' career, right in the middle of her peak & Graf still trying to regain her old form?

Graf was knocked off no.1, but that's because she was losing to everyone but seles. Graf was very close to overtaking Seles as no.1 just before the stabbing, so the trend was clear. It woulda happened by Wimbledon, & Seles woulda sunk like Hingis.

I do like seles, but she's not in graf's league. More like Venus level...?

Original_Whisper
Aug 2nd, 2003, 11:05 AM
Yes. Seles was playing some very good tennis, but she cleaned up in slams because she was better than everyone else & Graf was at rock bottom. For her to fail winning a blue chip slam after age 19 says it all. The stabbing is no excuse whatsoever - that's almost retarded...

hingis-seles
Aug 2nd, 2003, 11:06 AM
That's right. Keep telling yourelf that and one day you might just believe it.

irma
Aug 2nd, 2003, 11:08 AM
whisper are you the whisper from googles? I thought that was a monica fan (I don't googles that well only the steffi board)

Philbo
Aug 3rd, 2003, 09:08 AM
Laughing my ass off @ whisper!!

Steffi was at rock bottom = excuse, but Seles stabbing is no excuse?? What sort of retarded bullshit logic is that???

You give Graffanatics a whole new level of denial!!

Graf fans are typically the most in denial bunch of supporters anywhere, but you live in a complete fantasy la-la land!!!

Your quick to rattle off Wimbledon 92 (right during the whole grunt controversy but I wont even offer that as an excuse), but what about French Open 90, 92, Aus Open 93?? Seles beat Graf in slam finals more times than Graf did...

Your argument pissweak, and thats putting it kindly...

LMAO@ Seles being lucky for being stabbed... With that sort of shit how do you exect to be taken remotely seriously?? you're a complete joke...

Original_Whisper
Aug 3rd, 2003, 09:50 AM
Laughing my ass off @ whisper!!

Steffi was at rock bottom = excuse, but Seles stabbing is no excuse?? What sort of retarded bullshit logic is that???

You give Graffanatics a whole new level of denial!!

Graf fans are typically the most in denial bunch of supporters anywhere, but you live in a complete fantasy la-la land!!!

Your quick to rattle off Wimbledon 92 (right during the whole grunt controversy but I wont even offer that as an excuse), but what about French Open 90, 92, Aus Open 93?? Seles beat Graf in slam finals more times than Graf did...

Your argument pissweak, and thats putting it kindly...

LMAO@ Seles being lucky for being stabbed... With that sort of shit how do you exect to be taken remotely seriously?? you're a complete joke...


It's not an excuse - it's a fact Graf was losing to the same players she was beating pre & post slump (eg 6 in a row to Sabatini) - it's on the record & not an opinion. Seles was good enough to beat the rest of the players during this period.

The stabbing is an excuse for Seles missing maybe the rest of '93 at the most (personally I think Graf woulda come back by USO '93, if not Wimbledon). But no way is it valid to excuse her lack of success for *10 yrs*, from age 20. That's simply childish thinking. She's a pro who lives & breathes tennis 24 hrs a day, training & working out constantly. No way could a 3cm cut impede her in that way. She just went the way of Hingis/Wilander types (ie burnt out young)....

I'm not a Graf fan. I prefer Seles & have lots of her matches on tape. But it's funny how some here seriously think she was as good, if not better than Graf. I find these views entertaining.... ; )

hingis-seles
Aug 3rd, 2003, 10:13 AM
If you get stabbed for being the best at what you do, I'd like to see how you'd handle it. I think it's a testament to Monica's courage that she even returned to the game and is still out there, when she clearly knows something was stolen from her that horrible day in Hamburg.

Original_Whisper
Aug 3rd, 2003, 11:31 AM
If you get stabbed for being the best at what you do, I'd like to see how you'd handle it. I think it's a testament to Monica's courage that she even returned to the game and is still out there, when she clearly knows something was stolen from her that horrible day in Hamburg.

You're giving her way too much credit. You sound a little delusional to me - no offence.

There was a flight attendant here a couple of months ago who was savagely attacked by a crazed passenger with a knife, who tried to bring a plane down. He had massive stab wounds all around his skull & it looked frightening (bit like Frankenstein).

He just shrugged it off & was back at work 2 weeks later!

Tennis is only a game & you're really going over the top in your obsession. I remember at the time being surprised she didn't come back by Wim '93. Obviously she was playing the prima donna card & was just too young & silly to realise how much it could potentially cost her, legacy wise. There is absolutely no excuse for her missing more than FO '93 at the most.

hingis-seles
Aug 3rd, 2003, 11:36 AM
It was attempted murder. Why was the flight attendant attacked? There was nothing personal against him. The psycho who attacked Monica did so, because he hated her for being the best. He tried to kill her because she was the best. It was a personal attack on her because she was so damned great.

irma
Aug 3rd, 2003, 11:46 AM
I disagree. when I am on the street tomorrow and get stabbed and robbed then I also think it's personal and then it's also an attempted murder. it's not less worse

but one is not the other. one goes back to work in two weeks another ends up in a mental hospital end neves comes out. we are not the same so don't handle things the same way

hingis-seles
Aug 3rd, 2003, 12:03 PM
Irma, getting mugged on the street is one thing. It happens all the time and is not unexpected. But on a tennis court?

irma
Aug 3rd, 2003, 12:17 PM
getting mugged on the street is unexpected too especially on a place where you come every time again except when you are paranoid and look over your shoulder all the time anyway.

at least that's my opinion. I got a knife on my neck once and that was scary enough but that was personal anyway :o

irma
Aug 3rd, 2003, 12:26 PM
I saw a woman on tv a few weeks ago and she was poisoned by her own student. the student put something in her tea when she got out of the class and nobody said something when she drunk the tea. then she got heart failure and had to be taken in hospital. the worst thing was that she had helped that student a lot with problems because she was mentor too

now more then 1,5 year she was still suffering and could not work full time

did you expect the teacher to say teachers are hated all the time. let's move on?