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View Full Version : Here we go with the whole Kim beat both WS at the championships


Knizzle
Jul 27th, 2003, 11:20 PM
I don't know whay ESPN continues to say this without mentioning injury retirement in the first set after 5 games vs. Venus. I guess that is Kim's biggest highlight of her career, but then again all current players biggest highlights usually involve them beating a WS.

disposablehero
Jul 27th, 2003, 11:23 PM
Who cares? Are they supposed to waste additional time bringing that up every time they mention the tournament. Kim can beat a healthy Venus, and has. I'd worry more about how they often remind us how "tired" Serena was.

Knizzle
Jul 27th, 2003, 11:33 PM
Who cares? Are they supposed to waste additional time bringing that up every time they mention the tournament. Kim can beat a healthy Venus, and has. I'd worry more about how they often remind us how "tired" Serena was.

Why not mention it since there can't be one single telecast with Clijsters that they don't mention the tour championships. I never said Kim couldn't beat a healthy Venus, but she didn't that day. The match didn't even get to the second set. Shriver especially wants Kim to beat the Williams sisters and a slam and get to #1 and her bias shows during the matches she calls.

Hendouble
Jul 27th, 2003, 11:40 PM
I should have thought that was obvious; everyone wants to see change and development in a sport after a certain period of time, it's only natural to wish to see those at the top displaced by their challengers. It's happening in the men's game with Ferrero and Federer pushing Agassi, it's only reasonable to hope for the same here. Whether or not it will actually happen is quite a different matter, but there is nothing wrong in wishing it.

Mase
Jul 27th, 2003, 11:57 PM
I was thinking the same thing, Lord she didnt beat them both, I dont care what the 'record' books say.....

Hendouble
Jul 28th, 2003, 12:01 AM
It's a pity Venus didn't have enough sense to say to hell with it and give a walkover without even going on the court, that way there would be no official win against her and no controversy over the manner in which it was achieved.

Lisbeth
Jul 28th, 2003, 12:05 AM
Kim herself states that she didn't actually "beat" them both. However, she did beat both in 2002 (she beat an uninjured Venus earlier in the year, I think hamburg thoygh I could be wrong) - it would be more useful to mention that.

On the other hand, while she didn't really beat Venus at the end of years, she did register a win on paepr, so what they are saying is not wrong exactly, it's just a bit silly to bring it up at all.

Mase
Jul 28th, 2003, 12:08 AM
A bit silly is right, downright tiresome....

bandabou
Jul 28th, 2003, 12:19 AM
Well in any case, the sisters sure made sure to remember Kim who´s REALLY the boss! Since L.A.: 5 matches against the sisters: only two sets taken by Kim! Serena beat her ass in Hopman cup, then toyed with her at the Oz and waxed her again in Miami. Venus spanked her in front of her home-crowd and on national t.v. and then even injured still had enough left to down her at Wimby! She can have that one win!

Hendouble
Jul 28th, 2003, 12:22 AM
Methinks Serena did not toy with her at the AO. She was completely out of that match, only to find herself unexpectedly let back in. That sums up the root of Clijsters' problems, not the fact that she can't beat the sisters but that she can't beat them where it really counts even when the door is wide open.

shap_half
Jul 28th, 2003, 12:24 AM
Why not mention it since there can't be one single telecast with Clijsters that they don't mention the tour championships. I never said Kim couldn't beat a healthy Venus, but she didn't that day. The match didn't even get to the second set. Shriver especially wants Kim to beat the Williams sisters and a slam and get to #1 and her bias shows during the matches she calls.


Well there isn't a single thread here about Justine or whatever else where she isn't mentioned as a "cheating bastard" so you know what? deal with it.

tennis4life
Jul 28th, 2003, 12:25 AM
While it is technically true, it is just so lame when they say it, because they put so much emphasis on it. It really, really sounds like hype.

t4l

TeeRexx
Jul 28th, 2003, 12:28 AM
Knizzle - You are so true.
Pam keeps bringing up that "tremendous" feat of Clijsters at every opportunity, but fails to mention what transpired the following maonths after that event, including a half speed VENUS whipping Kim in the recent Wimbey semis. :)

lizchris
Jul 28th, 2003, 12:28 AM
Well in any case, the sisters sure made sure to remember Kim who´s REALLY the boss! Since L.A.: 5 matches against the sisters: only two sets taken by Kim! Serena beat her ass in Hopman cup, then toyed with her at the Oz and waxed her again in Miami. Venus spanked her in front of her home-crowd and on national t.v. and then even injured still had enough left to down her at Wimby! She can have that one win!

My sentiments exactly.

As of tonight, she is a little more than 200 points behind Serena and could possibly pass her as number one at the Acura Classic and I can't wait to see how much pressure she will be under when that happens, seeing that she has not won a Slam yet.

bandabou
Jul 28th, 2003, 12:36 AM
Exactly Lizchris. And she showed that she can´t handle pressure all to well!

TeeRexx
Jul 28th, 2003, 12:41 AM
LizChris - You and me are on the same wave length on this topic at least.

However, to play in over 22 + tournies more than makes Kim deserving of the top spot, but it will just be a little tainted without a GS title to go along with that position.

Jericho
Jul 28th, 2003, 12:59 AM
It's a pity Venus didn't have enough sense to say to hell with it and give a walkover without even going on the court, that way there would be no official win against her and no controversy over the manner in which it was achieved.

oh now its venus' fault :rolleyes:
shame on you venus for taking a chance and not rolling over :mad:

Ted of Teds Tennis
Jul 28th, 2003, 01:03 AM
I don't know whay ESPN continues to say this without mentioning injury retirement in the first set after 5 games vs. Venus. I guess that is Kim's biggest highlight of her career, but then again all current players biggest highlights usually involve them beating a WS.

It's posts like this that make people think the Cult of Williams is far more prominent than any "Williams haters" on the board.

(And before anybody calls me a "Williams hater", it's not Venus or Serena I have any animus for -- it's irritating, bitter, hate-filled fans like the one who started this thread.)

Volcana
Jul 28th, 2003, 01:07 AM
The job of the announcers is to make the matchups sound MORE compelling, not less. I'm sure when Kim thinks about beating Venus, that isn't the match that comes to mind. When Venus thinks about days Kim played well, I don't that match comes to mind either. But from the perspective of the average fan, it's just a match.

Remember Martina Hingis bageling an injured Monica a few years back. Twenty years from now, few indeed will be those who remember the injury.

lizchris
Jul 28th, 2003, 01:08 AM
Keep in mind that they are desperate to bump up Kim at the expense of the Williams sisters because they are so good against the others. Notice that they don't mention that she hasn't won a match against the Williams sisters since November and they say that she almost beat Serena at the AO, not that Serena beat her. Same with Venus and Wimbeldon. Thank goodness we will get a break from ESPN this week since FOX Sports Net and ABC-TV (in the US) have the rights to the Acura Classic. But we may not get a break from Pam Shriver since ESPN is owned by ABC, so she could be calling Acura Classic final.

Joana
Jul 28th, 2003, 01:12 AM
No, she didn't beat Venus, it was obvious, Venus could barely stand let alone play tennis.
But why does it bother you so much after such a long time. As I understand, those commentators repeat it every time Kim plays, why do you care anymore??? Let them babble all they want.

bandabou
Jul 28th, 2003, 01:14 AM
sadly for Kim and all her fans: ALMOST doesn´t count!

lizchris
Jul 28th, 2003, 01:18 AM
No, she didn't beat Venus, it was obvious, Venus could barely stand let alone play tennis.
But why does it bother you so much after such a long time. As I understand, those commentators repeat it every time Kim plays, why do you care anymore??? Let them babble all they want.

I can't speak for all Williams sisters fans, but what bothers me is that they try to make what the sisters have accomplished as nothing much. What they also fail to mention is that Serena won the Tour Championships in 2001 (even though it was by default) and that even though Venus has not won a Grand Slam since the 2001 US Open, she has a least won a Grand Slam and has been number one; something Kim has not accomplished yet.

shap_half
Jul 28th, 2003, 01:21 AM
I can't speak for all Williams sisters fans, but what bothers me is that they try to make what the sisters have accomplished as nothing much. What they also fail to mention is that Serena won the Tour Championships in 2001 (even though it was by default) and that even though Venus has not won a Grand Slam since the 2001 US Open, she has a least won a Grand Slam and has been number one; something Kim has not accomplished yet.

but Kim has only been really a factor in the tour for about a year and a half to a year whereas the sisters have been pro since they were 14 and Serena and Venus have been at the top since 1998 so it seems kinda weird that you put so much emphasis that Kim has not yet won a GS or been at the top. The commentators are just really impressed by what she's done in such a short period of time. And when did a commentator not mention the Serena Slam every time she plays or the fact that Venus has been in 4 Grand Slam finals. Justine was barely talked about at The Nasdaq-100 when she was just coming off a win at Dubai over Capriati and Seles.

Ryan
Jul 28th, 2003, 01:25 AM
Are you people fucking therapists? You read so much into the commentators COMMENTS it's astounding. Kim did defeat Venus and Serena at the Chase Champs. Kim vs. Venus in semifinal. Kim went through to the final. Venus was injured, but she lost to Kim all the same.


Grow up, Pam, Mary Joe, Cliff, Jim, John, Pat, Mary and any other commentator who works for a station has an educated opinion of what is going on and what happens in the tennis world. Maybe to the average (or psychotic obsessed paranoid williams fans) a retirement isnt a loss/win, but to people with an un-biased view, they see one person advancing. So that person won the match. If it was a w/o like Serena over Lindsay in 01 or many other w/o's, that isnt a win. But Venus went on court, and came off the loser. End. of. story.

bandabou
Jul 28th, 2003, 01:35 AM
Venus had the same kind of results as Kim when she was about the age Kim is now, but strangely back then Venus was almost considered an underachiever! And now they want to make like Kim´s the second coming of Steffi Graf?! Pluuzzz!!

lizchris
Jul 28th, 2003, 01:35 AM
but Kim has only been really a factor in the tour for about a year and a half to a year whereas the sisters have been pro since they were 14 and Serena and Venus have been at the top since 1998 so it seems kinda weird that you put so much emphasis that Kim has not yet won a GS or been at the top. The commentators are just really impressed by what she's done in such a short period of time. And when did a commentator not mention the Serena Slam every time she plays or the fact that Venus has been in 4 Grand Slam finals. Justine was barely talked about at The Nasdaq-100 when she was just coming off a win at Dubai over Capriati and Seles.

Kim should be where she is because unlike the sisters, she played juniors. I thnk the sisters would have won more tournaments if they have played juniors, but their parents wisely decided not to let them play. In addition, at the age of 20, Venus already won 2 Slams singles titles, completed the career Grand Slam in doubles and won two Olympic gold medals. I also believe her titles total exceeded Kim's at that age. As far as Serena, by the age of 20, she won 4 Slam singles titles, completed the career Grand Slam in doubles and won an Olympic gold medal. I think her titles total exceeded Kim's at the same age. Kim will not be able to equal what the sisters have done at 20 because she will can only win the next three Grand slams before she turns 21.

Knizzle
Jul 28th, 2003, 01:37 AM
It's posts like this that make people think the Cult of Williams is far more prominent than any "Williams haters" on the board.

(And before anybody calls me a "Williams hater", it's not Venus or Serena I have any animus for -- it's irritating, bitter, hate-filled fans like the one who started this thread.)

I don't hate anybody. I just don't like it when Shriver hypes up Kim beating both the WS at the championships simply because she wants Kim to beat the WS and be #1. She also has something personal against Venus.

lizchris
Jul 28th, 2003, 01:39 AM
Are you people fucking therapists? You read so much into the commentators COMMENTS it's astounding. Kim did defeat Venus and Serena at the Chase Champs. Kim vs. Venus in semifinal. Kim went through to the final. Venus was injured, but she lost to Kim all the same.


Grow up, Pam, Mary Joe, Cliff, Jim, John, Pat, Mary and any other commentator who works for a station has an educated opinion of what is going on and what happens in the tennis world. Maybe to the average (or psychotic obsessed paranoid williams fans) a retirement isnt a loss/win, but to people with an un-biased view, they see one person advancing. So that person won the match. If it was a w/o like Serena over Lindsay in 01 or many other w/o's, that isnt a win. But Venus went on court, and came off the loser. End. of. story.

Please, anyone with common sense knows that technically a retirement counts as a loss for the injured player and a win for the noninjured player, so techinally, Kim beat Venus at the year-end championships. Actually, we know she didn't because it didn't take two sets to beat Venus.

lizchris
Jul 28th, 2003, 01:42 AM
I don't hate anybody. I just don't like it when Shriver hypes up Kim beating both the WS at the championships simply because she wants Kim to beat the WS and be #1. She also has something personal against Venus.

Not that I want to, but in Pam's defense, I don't think she has anything against Venus. She was Venus' WTA tour mentor when Venus came on to the tour and I think she believes that Venus isn't playing to her full potential and doesn't play enough.

Ryan
Jul 28th, 2003, 01:56 AM
Please, anyone with common sense knows that technically a retirement counts as a loss for the injured player and a win for the noninjured player, so techinally, Kim beat Venus at the year-end championships. Actually, we know she didn't because it didn't take two sets to beat Venus.

You're right, it took less then one set.

jenglisbe
Jul 28th, 2003, 01:59 AM
Of course, you also fail to mention that Pam gave Serena credit in saying she would be #1 by a lot more if the ond ranking system of averages were being used...

lizchris
Jul 28th, 2003, 02:08 AM
You're right, it took less then one set.

Too bad she hasn't been able to win a match off either Williams sister since, two of those came at a Grand Slam and one came at a Tier I event.

tennnisfannn
Jul 28th, 2003, 03:11 AM
I believe the tour championships will always be mentioned when talking about Kim since it is the biggest win of her career, just like justine will always be referred to asthe FO champion untill she wins another slam, the Serenaslam will always mark Serena's commentaries.
As a williams fan, the 'back to back' beating of the WS at the Champs' is quiet complimentary. If you think back to the tour before the champs. the williams had amazingly been dominant, Serena had won 8 titles, Venus 7 and nobody else came close. they were tons of points ahead of the then no.3. When the draw came out it was almost impossible to see a non williams winner. Kim emerging at the top stunned everyone. Kim had played a great indoor season but it seemed like on of the those victories she was able to accomplish without the WS. Case in point, look at the reviews after she won Indian Wells. One headline was 'Kim wins in the absence of the Williams'.
The year before I was happy that Serena had won the Championships despite not having played the Final. Did that diminish her accomplishments? The sisters have both been beaten back to back AO 2001, it will happen again but it wont be every other day and when that happens IT MAKES HISTORY for the victor. Am I the only won who sees this positively.

TennisHack
Jul 28th, 2003, 03:51 AM
It's posts like this that make people think the Cult of Williams is far more prominent than any "Williams haters" on the board.

(And before anybody calls me a "Williams hater", it's not Venus or Serena I have any animus for -- it's irritating, bitter, hate-filled fans like the one who started this thread.)

:worship: Couldn't have said it better myself.

If the commentators bug you that much, put the TV on mute. You must not watch men's tennis, either, because Cliff and PMac do the exact same thing. At some point, you've got to let it go. And realize that the commentators are complete fucking idiots.

joz
Jul 28th, 2003, 04:10 AM
It's been a few months, but I seem to even remember Kim in an interview correcting an interviewer who said "you beat both the Williams sisters at the year end final..." she interupted and said... "well... yes... but venus was injured"... I think she aknowleges that....

jojoseph
Jul 28th, 2003, 04:13 AM
I don't know whay ESPN continues to say this without mentioning injury retirement in the first set after 5 games vs. Venus. I guess that is Kim's biggest highlight of her career, but then again all current players biggest highlights usually involve them beating a WS.

I disagree completely. Kim's biggest match against serena came at the AusOpen. Kim was owning Serena in the third til she lost it. Then I almost lost it myself.

TeeRexx
Jul 28th, 2003, 06:48 AM
I believe it was SERENA who won that match in the third set against Kim at OZ.

GS champs find ways to win it seems.

Chance
Jul 28th, 2003, 08:46 AM
If IW 2001 didn't occur Venus would not have attempted to play that match but because there are MF in this world I bet she felt compelled to...

Hulet
Jul 28th, 2003, 11:07 AM
I don't know whay ESPN continues to say this ...
May be ESPN has a timemachine and they could see that kim will beat Venus and Serena successively at the USO.

bandabou
Jul 28th, 2003, 11:20 AM
Beating BOTH Serena and Venus at the Open, huh?! Now THAT would be something to celebrate! Too bad it ain´t happening!!