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View Full Version : Why was Seles Attacked in Hamburg?


anton
Jan 29th, 2002, 09:39 AM
Did he try to kill her as a result of the Serb-Cro war and should Monica make her return finally to Germany?

Crazy Canuck
Jan 29th, 2002, 10:00 AM
Parche I think his name was -
ANyhow, he was an obsessed Steffi fan, and decided that he had to injur Monica in such a way she could never play tennis again, in order for his love to be the best in the world again.

Essentially thats what happened.

What he did do was mild compared to some of his other sick grusome ideas.

He is now coinciding with the rest of society, unfortunately.

And if Monica never returns to the country that allowed this man to be set free with no punishment, then I fully support that, and dont' blame her a bit.

No offense to Germany, but this is a special case.

Rollo
Jan 29th, 2002, 10:04 AM
He was a lunatic, pure and simple. Parche was a fanatical Graf fan. I don't blame Monica one bit for not returning to Germany, because the man wasn't put in prison. Authorities in Germany claimed the Seles family didn't cooperate enough to convince the court he should get a jail sentence, but as she was stabbed in front of horrified crowd his guilt was never open to question.


Was he forced to get mental therapy? That I couldn't tell you.

rian_ran
Jan 29th, 2002, 10:06 AM
Monica Seles, although Yugoslavian is of Hungarian not Serbian/Slavic extraction. Some feel this played a part in that Gunther Parche, a lathe-operator and a Steffi Graf FANatic, could not stand to see a German replaced by a Hungarian as the World's #1 ranker player, that he did it out of 'nationalism' (old ethnic rivalries never die...). This angle to the story was never fully developed as a more psychological approach was used in the investigation and trial.

ares
Jan 29th, 2002, 10:08 AM
she is from Ygoslavia, and at that time the guy who tried to kill Monica was doing someone else's job .After that Monica had to leave her home country Yugoslavia...

Philbo
Jan 29th, 2002, 10:10 AM
"No Offense to Germany" - Why be diplomatic about it?? THE GERMAN LEGAL SYSTEM IS A SHAM/JOKE/PATHETIC and BENEATH CONTEMPT!!!!


ANd I hope that does offend Germany - Offend them into doing somethign about it.

Its almost as if the German judicial system thought they would thank Gunther Parche for a job well done, by letting him off...

"he is no longer a danger to society" the judge said...- Yeah, thats cuz his mission was accomplised!!!

If Monica got stabbed anywhere, but on the tennis court, I wouldnt argue about her place in history being stolen, and Graf's numbers being inflated etc...

But due to the MOTIVES behind the stabbing, and WHY it occurred - for TENNIS reasons - to give Graf back the # 1 spot, I will never let it go, and will always argue for Monica...

Rollo
Jan 29th, 2002, 10:31 AM
Rian is correct Ares. Monica is of Hungarian descent, and the region of Serbia(or Yugoslavia) where she is from is a Hungarian enclave. Her parents were more comfortable speaking the language and her brother's name(Zoltan), is a typically Hungarian one.

Bright Red
Jan 29th, 2002, 11:06 AM
Well I'm just happy to see that Monica has recovered from the tragic event. She is such a great person (especially since the stabbing). I know she'll continue to have a great year in 2002!

Go Monica!

Linton
Jan 29th, 2002, 11:11 AM
Lol Monica is all eurpoen decent,

anton
Jan 29th, 2002, 11:15 AM
I know what happened. Just wanted to hear opinions. Seems most dont think she should go back to Germany.
I think maybe a return to Hamburg and win in Hamburg and Roland Garros might be a nice highlish to Monica's year.

irma
Jan 29th, 2002, 11:54 AM
If Monica got stabbed anywhere, but on the tennis court, I wouldnt argue about her place in history being stolen, and Graf's numbers being inflated etc...

But due to the MOTIVES behind the stabbing, and WHY it occurred - for TENNIS reasons - to give Graf back the # 1 spot, I will never let it go, and will always argue for Monica<P>so if she was stabbed or bombed only because she born in Serbia, her place in history would not have been stolen even if she had never been able to play again? that`s the biggest crap I ever heard, 1 she would still have been a total innocent victim of a crazy freaking idiot, 2 her life and career would still have been ruined,3 Steffi would still have go on and win all those titles. so there would not be a difference, except ofcourse when you realy hate Steffi that much that you are glad that he named her as reason because now you have a legal reason to bash her.:fiery:

Crazy Canuck
Jan 29th, 2002, 12:19 PM
Czechfan: I totally agree that there was something wrong with a system that let a man like that walk.

What I meant, was no offense to the people who live there , by saying I support Monica not going back.

My countries judicial system isn't perfect either - so I didn't want to be a hypocrit and totally insult Germany as a whole - I hope you know what I mean.

The system was screwed up to let them happen, but I meant no harm to the country or her people.

anton
Jan 29th, 2002, 12:35 PM
the clip of Steffi Graf going to visit Monica in the hospital was touching.

irma
Jan 29th, 2002, 12:39 PM
It`s nice to know that meaning that "you are no danger for the society anymore " means you don`t have to go to prison for trying to kill somebody, I still think the judge found it nice that he only put a knife in Monica`s back instead of cutting her hands off(that was his first plan), did you know that the bild interviewed him two years later and asked if he planned to do the same with ASV? and believe me this is no joke. :fiery:

anton
Jan 29th, 2002, 01:23 PM
you mean Arantxa? he was banned from the tour wasn't he. I guess he could try to find her hotel or something.

DutchieGirl
Jan 29th, 2002, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by anton
you mean Arantxa? he was banned from the tour wasn't he. I guess he could try to find her hotel or something.

umm remember the Hingis case? The guy who "stalked" her was banned from the site, but he kept coming back anyway. Just because he was banned from the tour doesn't mean he wouldn't try something anyway. If he was "crazy" enough to stab Monica, then is there any reason he wouldn't try it again on someone else if he thought they were stealing the #1 spot from Steffi!

I actually remember having a discussion with a fellow Coetzer fan in 97 about should Amanda watch out in Germany because she's beating Graf alot that year. That's a bit over the top, but with somebody like Parche, you never know what he might try!

I can undersatnd Seles not going back to Germany, and I feel that if she doesn't want to go back, then it's up to her. If she doesn't feel comfortable going to Germany (and would you under the circumstances? I wouldn't!) then she needn't go.

Aloysius
Jan 29th, 2002, 08:54 PM
The nationalistic side of the stabbing never occurred to me. But I guess it was also partly possible.

If I were any of these top girls, I'd hire myself a big, mean, old bodyguard to look after my being... or Kevin Costner. Whitney says that he will always love you.

Justin
Jan 29th, 2002, 09:04 PM
Monica is ethnic Hungarian. She lived in Novi sad, Yougslavia, which is close top the border. She went to school in Hungary and speaks Hungarian as well as Serbo-Croatian.

she is from Ygoslavia, and at that time the guy who tried to kill Monica was doing someone else's job .After that Monica had to leave her home country Yugoslavia

Monica left Yugoslavia after she won her first World title (and she was the European champ that year, too). IIRC, she repeated as European and World champ the next year after a year of training with Nick. Her parents joined her in Fla just a few months after she came over here (she was homesick and wasn't performing that well w/o them.)

irma
Jan 29th, 2002, 09:32 PM
Didn`t Monica also live in Germany for a while before she went too Florida? I seem to remember that I read that once.

Fingon
Jan 29th, 2002, 10:42 PM
The reason why Monica was attacked has been well explained here.

Parche is a lunatic and I totally support Monica's decision not to play in Germany again.

Of course, we must not confuse the issue, German people and Steffi Graf are not guilty of this, they have nothing to do with it, it was that lunatic, and the german judicial system.

Moreover I find the German courts even more guilty than Parche, Parche is a psycho, a sick man that shouldn't be allowed to be free, but the german judges? what is their excuse?, they are supposed to be educated, intelligent and protect the people.

Also, after the incident, the organizers went on with the tournament, it was played as if nothing had happened, they should have suspended the tournament immediately, it was like human life meant nothing for the organizers.

The WTA wasn't also very kind on Monica.

And it seems they have learned nothing from it. I was in the Canadian Open last year, I could have taken any weapon with me, I was really close to some of the players, anyone wanting to harm a player could have done it with no problems. Parche isn't the only lunatic out there, Martina had to deal with a stalker, fortunately the stalked apparently only wanted to be near her and not hurt her, but they should take preventive meassures to avoid that risk, not act when the problem happened.

Kart
Jan 30th, 2002, 01:12 AM
Actually Seles has not said that she will not go back to Germany, only that she will not play there again.

I would have thought that the motive was fairly obvious ... the man was obsessed with Steffi - sent her money on her birthday, wrote her letters professing his love for her ... I don't see any relevance of Monica's nationality here.

I have always understood that he was not imprisoned because of his mental illness, so I cannot believe that he has not had some form of psychiatric intervention and merely been set free. I don't agree with his not being tried, but I think the idea that he was just sent on his merry way is a bit of an exaggeration.

Finally, I am disgusted when hearing that the Bild (which I assume is a German newspaper) sought him out,interviewed him and asked him if he was going to do the same to ASV. As if the man needed any more media exposure :fiery: :mad: :( :fiery: :mad:

Come-on-kim
Jan 30th, 2002, 01:23 AM
Was it against Graf or against Majoli that Monica played when she had her "accident" in Hambourg???

The same men want to shoot ASV?????

Why Germany didn't put him in prison?

saki
Jan 30th, 2002, 01:25 AM
Parche was mentally ill. He should not have been imprisoned or punished because of this. I don't think that the German legal system is at fault for not punishing someone who was not capable of being responsible for his actions.

On the other hand, he should have been made to receive proper treatment. And I don't think that that was the case.

Kart
Jan 30th, 2002, 01:27 AM
Come-on-kim, she was playing against Magdalena Maleeva.

irma
Jan 30th, 2002, 01:32 AM
She played Maggie Maleeva,<P> the bild only asked him and the fact that they did was already bad enough, lunatics should not get any space in papers:fiery: ,but of course the bild doesn`t care about people aslong as it sells, that`s another reason for Monica not go to Germany to play a tournament, before you know one of these trash papers tracks him down and brings him to the tournament with a flower, they are crazy enough for it.:fiery:

Kart
Jan 30th, 2002, 01:36 AM
Fortunately, Monica is not crazy enough to be tricked into playing there again :).

Philip
Jan 30th, 2002, 02:32 AM
I only started following tennis from 1998, and probably more frequently since 1999, so i never really knew much of what happened to Monica. I just wanted to say that the man who did this is\was a danger to society, and should of been locked up for a very long time - i think most poeple know this.

I was horrified to read that his first plan was to cut off her hands, thats sick, and to be asked if he would do the same to Arantxa, thats even worse. I couldn't imagine anything like this happening now, and if i was following tennis back then i would had been devistated.

I'm just so happy now that Monica is healthy and still playing tennis. If she ever did go back to Germany to play i would be very worried (sounds maybe stupid?), and personally i hope she never goes back.

Monica is so brave in actually coming back to play tennis after what happened, if it was me, and even if tennis was my passion, i still wouldnt have come back to play tennis at all.

Monica is a true star, and deserves everything good that comes her way.

Philip.

Philbo
Jan 30th, 2002, 02:42 AM
irma - I stand by what I posted...

If Monica was attacked for being serbian or hungarian, or just attacked randonly, I assure you, I would not spend so much time saying "Graf's career record is inflated, Monica's place in history was stolen" etc etc...

Sadly, those tragic things happen from time to time...

But Monica's case is different.. She was stabbed BECAUSE she was # 1, BECAUSE she was better than Graf...It was directly related to her tennis ability...


And for that reason, I believe casually dismissing what happened to Monica and its effect and comparing it to any old injury is totally abhorrent to me, and I will spend the rest of my life spouting off the same old viewpoint...

vlado
Jan 30th, 2002, 03:15 AM
Monica Seles, although Yugoslavian is of Hungarian not Serbian/Slavic extraction. Some feel this played a part in that Gunther Parche, a lathe-operator and a Steffi Graf FANatic, could not stand to see a German replaced by a Hungarian as the World's #1 ranker player, that he did it out of 'nationalism' (old ethnic rivalries never die...). This angle to the story was never fully developed as a more psychological approach was used in the investigation and trial.


Most people back then didn't know (or cared to find out) her ethnic background and she was looked at and treated as a Serb by people and media. I remember reading about her as "Serb" or "Yugoslav" in western media, never though as Hungarian. So that theory is very thin. Also, there is no German-Hungarian rivalry to speak of. Austria and Hungaria formed a dual monarchy for several centuries, and even though there was a bit of rivalry between them, there was never any war or 'bad blood' between them.

This is only hearsay, but I've heard that he mentioned in court his dislike of Serbs as a reason for the stabbing of Monica. It's a possibility, especially considering the aggressive media climate back then. By many she wasn't looked at just as a tennis player, but as a person representing a country they perceived to be bad to say the least. Her success didn't make things easier for her in that sense. And she DID receive death threats on several occasions because of the ex-Yu conflict, I remember the Wimbledon final against Steffi Graf as being one of those occasions. I personally think it may have been a combination of both.

ares
Jan 31st, 2002, 10:21 AM
Yes Vlado you are totally correct, when she was a big player at the end of 1980' , she was recognized as a Serbian or Yugoslav player (she grew up in the country of Serbia- what she is pride of), and also the serbian or yugoslav society helped her a lot to be where he is now. She is a Yugoslav citizen and promotor of a Yugoslav tennis .Any other national caracteristic are not ecessery
(redudant).
Unfortunatelly many didn't like that , and Monika almost paid for it.
Monika Novi Sad te voli!!!
:bounce:

cooolconchita
Jan 31st, 2002, 10:25 PM
i am still shocked,angry and amazed that he is out free, monica didn't get any sort of apology and the wta's general attitude on the whole incident. one of the all time great's still actively playing, and they choose to host the new masters in GERMANY of all places...insensitive, money-grabbing and generally quite nasty. they have NO respect for monica at all.

Dado
Feb 1st, 2002, 01:37 AM
To moji zemljaci!!!!

Monica is from Yugo! That's it!
And Parche is an ashole!

And I'm sure: Monica will turn back to Yugoslavia one day!!!

Julian
Feb 1st, 2002, 02:19 AM
I remember reading Monica's autobiography and even READING I was so emotional and I know it can't even compensate for people who were actually there and during that time. I mean the words were just powerful from Monica's point of view and I can't believe that a person like Gunther Parsche was set free for almos killing a person because of what they acheived and where they were from. I'm sure the entire YUGOSLAVIAN nation was astonished. But what really strikes me from what irma said was that they interviewed him a few years later if he would do the same to Arantxa. As an Arantxa fan, that just makes me scared and I'm thanking my lucky stars that THAT didn't happen to Arantxa. (Arantxa did have her fair shared of wins during 90-93 period). I'm hoping that Monica and find it in her heart to go back because I think it might be good for her, but as of now I don't blame her one bit for going back. I wouldn't....

Kool Shen
Feb 1st, 2002, 10:46 AM
Best post ever read about this subject. Thanks :)

ares
Feb 1st, 2002, 09:36 PM
both you above and sk deserve tretman, so that later on you guyswouldnt write that shit...
(I Apologize to the others )

saki
Feb 2nd, 2002, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by ares
both you above and sk deserve tretman, so that later on you guyswouldnt write that shit...
(I Apologize to the others )

In the same way that one wouldn't punish a child for doing something that they couldn't help, one shouldn't punish a madman. Parche should have been made to receive treatment, possibly even in a high-security hospital but to punish him would have been unjust.

My mother is mentally ill and I know firsthand that such people cannot and should not be held responsible for their actions.

I'm saddened by what happened to Monica and also shed tears when reading the autobiography, but to punish someone for something that they couldn't help would be WRONG.

irma
Feb 2nd, 2002, 12:56 AM
But then we can trow prisons away, I don`t believe anybody who kills is mentally healty, otherwise you would not do it(well that`s what I think)

Kool Shen
Feb 2nd, 2002, 01:52 AM
irma > there is a difference being mentally responsible of your acts or not.

:hearts: ares > I'ma big fan of Monica and I can understand what you can feel as a victim. Nevertheless, the victims are never really objective, that's why in every "civilizated" sociaty exists a justice. The role of a judiciary system is not punished but to evealuate if a person is a danger for other people of a sociaty. The fact this guy hadn't made any other aggression proves the decision was good.
That's what I think. If this judiciary decision has been for any other reasons, then I would also say it's unfair.

BTW, I again agree with sk :)

Kool Shen
Feb 2nd, 2002, 01:57 AM
This thread is a great moment of the Europe history : a french person agrees an english one !:bounce:

irma
Feb 2nd, 2002, 02:15 AM
yeah but where is the crossline of being mentally ill or being responsable, I saw a report on tv about a man who killed some people wanted to be released from prison because he discovered(he was adopted) that his biological father was also a criminal so he decided that he couldn`t help it that he did these things because it was in his gens. So in that case you can find an excuse for everybody.
Look when a wife get`s beaten up and humiliated for 20 years by her husband and one day she gets so mad and takes a knife and kills him then I say alright I can understand that but in Gunther P`s case, didn`t the judge say he was no danger for the society anymore? that doesn`t sound like the judge thought he was mentally ill so she could have send him to prison.

Tatiana Panova
Feb 2nd, 2002, 02:21 AM
I can't believe that he didn't serve any time in prison. I mean it was attempted murder - inches away from her respiratory organs. I think that the only reason he didn't do any more damage was that Monica leaned forward as he struck. It must be terrible for Monica, and I fully understand why she does not return to Germany.

On the other hand I highly doubt that the German legal system would be flippant about this, and you can't sit there and say this and that if you weren't in that court room and know all the facts. The bottom line though is that she was stabbed for all the world to see, and this deserves punishment.

Kart
Feb 2nd, 2002, 06:19 AM
It strikes me from reading this thread that none of us actually seem to know what happened to Parche after he was released - whether he was just allowed to walk free or whether he was committed to psychiatric care.

Not knowing the facts makes it easy for us to criticize the German legal system, but as Tatiana Panova pointed out, I doubt they'd be flippant over such a high profile case.

One point I would like to make though is that just because someone is mentally ill, it doesn't mean they are not accountable for their actions. What matters is how much insight the person has into their behaviour. There's a big difference between Parche knowing that he was wrong in going to stab Monica and Parche having no insight into his actions.

Frankly it's all academic now, what matters is that Monica survived and managed to return to some semblence of a normal life. In the grand scheme of things, I doubt it really matters much if she ever plays in Germany again.

Zummi
Feb 2nd, 2002, 09:03 AM
I remember reading an article in "Time" magazine back in 1995. Graf's tax evasion problems had just become public and her father was being questioned/investigated, soon to be given a jail sentence etc. Monica had returned that year and many people were shocked to learn that the Graf fan who attacked her didn't spend a day in jail.

Time magazine concluded: "In Germany, it's better to be crazy than to mess with the state."

ares
Feb 2nd, 2002, 11:54 AM
...all Of them think the same...

Kool Shen
Feb 2nd, 2002, 01:03 PM
irma > I'm not a psychiatrists therefore I can't say you the limit and it depends pretty much of the situation.

What is the most asthonishing is that here many people know nothing about Parche analyze or about german judiciary system, but everybody is able to bash them. And maybe to be the executionner...

Now let me say you something. Would that has happenned in France, I don't know what would have been the judge decision (althought french judiciary system is very bad). I think Monica would have got what she wants, because of her nationnality at this time (Yougoslavia and France had historical relationship). Would that have been fair ?

Ok, now I have other thinsg to do than talking to walls

Sam L
Feb 2nd, 2002, 03:48 PM
One point I would like to make though is that just because someone is mentally ill, it doesn't mean they are not accountable for their actions.

Yes, everyone is accountable for their actions. I don't care if you're mentally ill, mentally disabled, physicaly disabled, abused, tortured. A law is a law and there should be absolutely no exception.

Now I can't believe some of the posts I've read regarding crime and punishment. Excuses, excuses, excuses for perpetrators of crime. That's exactly the thing that's wrong with human society these days. And it will lead to its downfall, believe me.

Kool Shen: "The role of a judiciary system is <b>not</b> punished but to evealuate if a person is a danger for other people of a sociaty."

Excuse me? If you do a crime, you must be punished, no excuses.

irma
Feb 2nd, 2002, 04:01 PM
all I know is that Gunther P ruined the life of an innocent 19 year old girl who he never met and only saw on a tenniscourt and all she did was winning, that`s enough for me already to send him away, either in prison or in a mental hospital but fact was that after a short time he was free again and the judge said he was not a danger for society(I keep writing down that sentence because in my eyes it sounds like He man you are a good man, good job you did there on the court) and 4 weeks after he committed his crime he got what he wanted (well officially then, Even as a very very big Steffi fan, that gives me an uneasy feeling), I don`t need to know law or have to study Gunther P`s head because my feeling says there is something wrong and unjustifying in that and I know it`s not specific the german system, in every lawsystem over the whole world wrong and unjustifying things happen.

Iconoclast
Feb 2nd, 2002, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Tatiana Panova
I can't believe that he didn't serve any time in prison. I mean it was attempted murder - inches away from her respiratory organs. I think that the only reason he didn't do any more damage was that Monica leaned forward as he struck.


Exactly. This may very well have saved her life. A witness testified that he was preparing to stab her a second time before being mauled by the officials. And it was very powerful stabs, causing people at the ground to believe he was punching her with his fist.

Clearly, the guy is severely delusional and possibly retarded, but he was still capable of planning an outrageous crime in detail. He even admitted how he had contemplated to hurt her for a very long time. We may never know if he truly intended to kill her - or, as he claims, "merely" wanted to sideline her for a good deal of time. The question is, how do you distinguish? How do you forcefully stab someone in the back, while ensuring that you don't fatally wound them?

His hatred of Monica was immense, but it could have been directed at anyone who beat his favorite consistently. He made a remark about her being too strong and masculine for the game, but never - to my knowledge - said anything about her ethnic background. He simply disliked her for being the No. 1 - "Graf's rightful place".

Excerpts from his testimony (in German only) can be read at this site: http://www.monicaseles.de

I found these words very interesting because they seem to reveal that he clearly lived in some sort of fantasy land - if they are truthful of course (my translation):

"After I stabbed her, some people started shouting that I was a bastard (Schwein). But I had also done this for the spectators. Their reaction confused me a little."

irma
Feb 2nd, 2002, 05:32 PM
So he did it also to get attention?

Messenger
Feb 2nd, 2002, 05:38 PM
I heard that Maggie, Steffi, Jana and Arantxa were pressured by the tournament organisers to continue playing in the tournament. Can anyone verify this?

It's pretty disgraceful if they did- not only does it reflect badly on the tournament but also the four players (I know Maleeva is still criticised to this day about playing the semi-final). I can understand why they would pressure the players though- the tournament would have lost a lot of money if it was cancelled.

Or maybe they weren't pressured and the players were just insensitive?

irma
Feb 2nd, 2002, 05:47 PM
I have no idea, I read Steffi said if she would have been more hurt then I would not have played, that sounds like she thought it was not that worse, Steffi should never have said that,
and asv said after she won the tournament, it`s no secret that I want to become number 1. these things sounds insensitive to me, I am sure it would have hurt me if I was Monica and I heard it(I dont think she did but still) I don`t know if they were pressured in playing and saying quotes but that`s not an excuse.

Iconoclast
Feb 2nd, 2002, 05:53 PM
It's a terrible dilemma, the organizers have one of two choices. And both can be held against them.

If they cancel the event, they are allowing the perpetrator to cause even more damage. Of course, it's debatable whether or not it's a disaster to stop a tournament which has already been severely tainted.

If they continue, they are insensitive to the victim.

irma
Feb 2nd, 2002, 06:00 PM
that idiot ruined Monica`s life,Steffi career(yeah he did because every 36 tournaments she won people said what if, in fact they even started about the 71 she won long before too) and he ruined a nice tournament, I loved to watch Hamburg in 91 and 92 on tv.(okee I admit that was because Steffi won both times :D)

the_ancyent_marinere
Feb 2nd, 2002, 06:04 PM
Is it implied that the entire German legal system is rotten?

I believe that Monica eventually should try to play again in Germany! It is not right to either herself or the German people or her fans not ever playing there again. It would be a great sign of strength and forgivness!

Iconoclast
Feb 2nd, 2002, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by cthulhu
Is it implied that the entire German legal system is rotten?


Not by me. And I don't think this is a general conception, since there are freak cases in every country.

Similarly, you can hardly judge the American legal system simply by looking at the O.J. Simpson case.

saki
Feb 2nd, 2002, 08:35 PM
"Yes, everyone is accountable for their actions. I don't care if you're
mentally ill, mentally disabled, physicaly disabled, abused, tortured. A law is
a law and there should be absolutely no exception. "

No exceptions? What about a child? And, believe me, some mentally ill people have no more understanding of what they are doing than children do.

wongqks
Feb 2nd, 2002, 08:41 PM
I am pretty sure that tournament director force them to continue playing maybe by placing a very heavy penalty. I cannot see any of these player espcially Steffi to continue to play without any pressure from tourament director. Unfortuneately, tournament is a big business, a withdrawn from semifinal and final totally will mean tournament will lose a big protion of their sponsorship money, TV deals, tickets sales, a tournament can go bankrupt literally because of that. It is unfortuneate but I can understand that, but what I cannot understand is that why directors treat it as nothing happen and did not really address or apologize to Monica for what happen, in the end, it is their slack of security which lead to the stabbing.

GoDominiqu
Feb 2nd, 2002, 10:09 PM
Some people seem to think that German streets are full of freaks who commit crimes and walk away. :rolleyes: I can tell you, this is not true.

Give me the German legal system instead of the American anytime.

Kart
Feb 3rd, 2002, 12:05 AM
cthulhu, Monica doesn't owe it to her fans to play in Germany again. She has stated why she won't and she has stood by her word, which is surely part of the reason why she has such a legion of fans. If it's too painful for her or any other reason, she doesn't owe the tour anything.

As for this debate about mentally ill people having to pay for their crimes, I'm no lawyer, but I'm sure there are considerations in any legal system to account for people who are judged to have no insight into their conditions leading to no control over their actions. Presumably Parche was a receipient of the benefits of those considerations. Still, none of us actually seem to know what exactly happened to him.

Re: continuing the tournament. The organisers did have choices as Iconoclast pointed out, but the players could have withdrawn if they felt that strongly about it, I doubt they could have been forced to play. Personally, I don't think there was any point in cancelling the tournament (although Monica wrote in her book that she was not happy that they continued), as long as security was improved. Insensitive as it sounds, it was the job of the judicial system, not the tournament directors, to recognise the crime and give Monica justice.

jrj
Feb 3rd, 2002, 12:19 AM
let's be fair for a second our justice system isn't exactly great here in the US.
OJ, Ray Lewis, Puff Daddy, are all walking free. And the Supreme Court appointed our "President."

i_like_tennis
Aug 6th, 2003, 09:41 PM
not trying to conjure up any controversy,
just trying to remember her old days,
now she is injured again, will she be able
to recover this time?....:(
GO MONICA........:D......

bandabou
Aug 6th, 2003, 09:51 PM
Well as the saying says: What goes around, comes around! The Germans didn´t take notice of Monica´s pitty and sorrow....well now look at them now! Barely a tournament and no players even close of being capable to win a slam any time soon!!

i_like_tennis
Aug 6th, 2003, 09:56 PM
Well as the saying says: What goes around, comes around! The Germans didn´t take notice of Monica´s pitty and sorrow....well now look at them now! Barely a tournament and no players even close of being capable to win a slam any time soon!!
good one.....:)......ouch....
GO MONICA.....:D

Volcana
Aug 6th, 2003, 10:00 PM
It's interesting that barely a decade has past, and details like 'why' are already fading. I always thought it was one of the primary pieces of tennis lore. Now I see it will indeed be more like Maureen Connolly. Tragic, but details fade as the events grows further in the past. It's actually a very logical thing for someone who heard Monica birth country and knew she was stabbed to wonder if it was political, given the killing floor the Balkans became for while. I'm actually kind of impressed you asked that question.

If she has a reason she NEEDS to go to Germany, I'm sure she'll go. Otherwise, why should she? Why should she go anywhere she doesn't want to?

bandabou
Aug 6th, 2003, 10:03 PM
The sad part is that Monica actually has many friend in Germany, but because of the stabbing she barely sees them...sad!

irma
Aug 6th, 2003, 10:09 PM
monica lived in germany for a while when she was a kid. she said she would go there to visit friends but she sure will not gonna tell that in a pc

irma
Aug 6th, 2003, 10:10 PM
I mean of course when or where she would do that

CapFan#1
Aug 6th, 2003, 10:12 PM
I dont get Germany... let this psycho go w/no jail time but then have all these damn tax cases?!?

what gives...........

bandabou
Aug 6th, 2003, 10:14 PM
I mean of course when or where she would do that

And rightly so. Of course she must be visiting Germany once in a while, but she will never state in public to let anyone know where to find her.

The world is still full of lunatics. :(

R&J
Aug 6th, 2003, 10:19 PM
Everyone knows this already.....


He said it was because he couldnt stand to see Monica with the #1 ranking. He wanted Steffi to be #1 again and to win slams like she did before Monica came on the tour.

bandabou
Aug 6th, 2003, 10:22 PM
Everyone knows this already.....


He said it was because he couldnt stand to see Monica with the #1 ranking. He wanted Steffi to be #1 again and to win slams like she did before Monica came on the tour.

And ultimately succeeded in this and even walked away free!! :mad:

i_like_tennis
Aug 6th, 2003, 10:29 PM
And ultimately succeeded in this and even walked away free!! :mad:
yeah, i know......and now the German tennis association
is paying for it.....Monica would have been a nice way
for Steffi to have a reason to retire...
look what that guy did... :mad:

hingis-seles
Aug 8th, 2003, 12:56 PM
I'll look up the quote, but Parche did say that he would not have stabbed Monica if she was from Israel or USA as those two countries were the greatest on earth.

He was screwed in the head and that he wasn't sent to jail/admitted to a mental hospital reflects rather poorly on the German judicial system.

bandabou
Aug 8th, 2003, 01:09 PM
I'll look up the quote, but Parche did say that he would not have stabbed Monica if she was from Israel or USA as those two countries were the greatest on earth.

He was screwed in the head and that he wasn't sent to jail/admitted to a mental hospital reflects rather poorly on the German judicial system.

Speaks rather poorly of the German judical system?! Now THAT is an understatement!!

starr
Aug 8th, 2003, 01:09 PM
I wonder how Parche might have been treated had he stabbed Steffi Graf instead of Monica Seles. Would the German judge have been quite so ready to say that he no longer posed a threat to the public?

hingis-seles
Aug 8th, 2003, 01:23 PM
I am quoting from The Monica Seles Story written by Joe Layden(Pages 204-205):

Evidence at the trial, though, indicated that perhaos a deeper, uglier motive for the attack existed, a racial motive. Parche testified that he believed "Serbes today are the worst and most serious danger in Europe." He also said he "wanted to teach the parents of the Serb[Seles] a lesson."

As Monica herself later pointed out,"His words in court were, I hate her, I hate the Serbs. He said that had I been a German or an American, he would not have stabbed me."

German political and legal analysts also suggested that Parche's light sentence might have been connected to a racial issue. Seles was not a Serb. She was an ethnic Hungarian who had grown up in an area of Yugoslavia now controlled by Serbs. Truth mattered less than perception, though. Germany had backed Croatia during World War II, and now the Croats were fighting the Serbs. Lines were being drawn. Perhaps the freeing of Gunther Parche was a symbol of support.

Perhaps not.

Volcana
Aug 8th, 2003, 01:35 PM
I am quoting from The Monica Seles Story written by Joe Layden(Pages 204-205):

Evidence at the trial, though, indicated that perhaos a deeper, uglier motive for the attack existed, a racial motive. Parche testified that he believed "Serbes today are the worst and most serious danger in Europe." He also said he "wanted to teach the parents of the Serb[Seles] a lesson."

As Monica herself later pointed out,"His words in court were, I hate her, I hate the Serbs. He said that had I been a German or an American, he would not have stabbed me."

German political and legal analysts also suggested that Parche's light sentence might have been connected to a racial issue. Seles was not a Serb. She was an ethnic Hungarian who had grown up in an area of Yugoslavia now controlled by Serbs. Truth mattered less than perception, though. Germany had backed Croatia during World War II, and now the Croats were fighting the Serbs. Lines were being drawn. Perhaps the freeing of Gunther Parche was a symbol of support.

Perhaps not.

Very interesting. I wasn't up onthe political aspects of this. To be honest, the politcial motivation make s a lot more sense than 'I just wanted Steffi to be #1'.

hingis-seles
Aug 8th, 2003, 01:57 PM
This is from Monica's own autobiography, "From Fear to Victory", Pages 17-18, excerpts of Gunther Parche statements:

"At this point I also want to say that the USA and Israel are my favourite countries. I am a great fan. But Steffi Graf is still at the very top. To me, she is worth far more than all the others. I would walk through fire for the USA, but for Steffi I would do much much more."

"I see the whole thing as a warning-to Monica Seles' parents as well."

Experimentee
Aug 8th, 2003, 02:27 PM
I dont understand that case either. If they found he was mentally ill and not accountable for his actions, then he should at least have been admitted to a mental hospital. But i get the impression that he was just allowed to walk free. No justice at all. Mind you other countries legal systems are just as bad as that, the law is really screwed up in some cases.
I wasnt aware that he hated Serbs either. It is really sad that people will do such things, stab people, start wars etc just for the sake of ethnic rivalries. :(

bandabou
Aug 8th, 2003, 06:08 PM
I wonder how Parche might have been treated had he stabbed Steffi Graf instead of Monica Seles. Would the German judge have been quite so ready to say that he no longer posed a threat to the public?


Now then Parche would have gotten life sentence, for sure!!

hingis-seles
Aug 9th, 2003, 02:16 AM
The real world can be unfair. I guess that's life.

banana
Aug 9th, 2003, 03:03 AM
i heard some where that His oroginal plan was to present her with flowers and then cut her hands of :eek: He seems pretty sick!!!

anton
Aug 9th, 2003, 05:12 AM
One Mary "cheap wig chick" Carillo note: Carillo said after the stabbing that "she's going to milk this sucker dry."

Monica was asked during am interview right before her comeback I think it was on 20/20 what she thought of that comment and Monica said she didn't understand that phrase then after it was explained to her Monica said that was not true...

Monica DID write a book however for whatever reasons at age 22(?). A lot of celebrities won't write an autobiography at that young age...

anton
Aug 9th, 2003, 05:15 AM
another funny comment: one of the big wigs at Fila announced to the press: "what are we going to do with the clothes when she's not playing, sell them to wash off cars with?"

Ka-Klunka
Aug 9th, 2003, 06:54 AM
Mary Carillo actually said that? I know she can be pretty mercenary in her hunt for the perfect quip, but yeesh.

irma
Aug 9th, 2003, 07:52 AM
One Mary "cheap wig chick" Carillo note: Carillo said after the stabbing that "she's going to milk this sucker dry."

Monica was asked during am interview right before her comeback I think it was on 20/20 what she thought of that comment and Monica said she didn't understand that phrase then after it was explained to her Monica said that was not true...

Monica DID write a book however for whatever reasons at age 22(?). A lot of celebrities won't write an autobiography at that young age...

sometimes I wonder how much monica was lead by her management in her early years even when she just came back. I mean tragedy can turn you around but not so extreme as monica did in 96/97 and also in certain interviews young monica came across like a normal girl who argued with her mother about what car she should buy and then suddenly she was playing the "diva" again.
don't forget monica was very young when she became a star so it would not be weird when she got the wrong advice from people who only saw money in her. same happened with andre. he also says he is not happy that he got caught in the pr machine when he was young.

anton
Aug 9th, 2003, 08:21 AM
agassi refused for a time to be interviewd by carillo.

venus williams to this day refuses to give carillo an interview. for payback, carillo slams venus every chance she gets.

i never heard so much negativity as during the wimbledon final. carillo was dissing venus like venus was kobe bryant..."this does not seem like a wimbledon final" "this sure is ugly" maybe mary should look in the mirror first...

irma
Aug 9th, 2003, 08:37 AM
I never heard her commentate so I can't say if she is annoying. she is not allowed to go on the bbc since she never achieved something tenniswise or was married to a champion like john lloyd.

anton
Aug 9th, 2003, 08:46 AM
you're lucky mary carillo is on almost all the USA tv stations...
Especially since Chris Evert got fired, Carillo took her job at NBC too. Chris Evert was annoying too but at least she did win something more than a mixed doubles title...

irma
Aug 9th, 2003, 08:51 AM
oh wait I forgot she was in a relationship with mac according to the german tennismagazine;)

anton
Aug 9th, 2003, 08:54 AM
they won mixed doubles at the french open in the 70s i think.

that reminds me of a comment Pam Shriver said. Something about she is older than Anna Kournikova's mom...

irma
Aug 9th, 2003, 08:59 AM
I think anna's mother got anna when she was very young. I read 17

anton
Aug 9th, 2003, 10:06 AM
i hope anna comes back soon. i want her to win one singles title at least...

hingis-seles
Aug 9th, 2003, 10:19 AM
I thought that was very rude(read:bitchy) of Mary Carillo to say about Monica, but as my signature shows, she's said some great stuff which was true and not a lie, about the GREAT Monica Seles.

irma
Aug 9th, 2003, 10:44 AM
sorry ali I have another view about that. it's no secret how I think about the people who were even bashing her when she was down and then all jumped on the bandwagon in 95 since it was suddenly hot to like her :o

same (when less extreme and different circumstances) happened when steffi won the french open 99 :o

anton
Aug 9th, 2003, 10:50 AM
commentators makes alll kind of off hand remarks. i remember when steffi was playing monica in paris, the crowd was for steffi and one tv guy said that was a little surprising since the germans rolled tanks through town.

as far as i know steffi was not driving any of them...

irma
Aug 9th, 2003, 11:38 AM
commentators makes alll kind of off hand remarks. i remember when steffi was playing monica in paris, the crowd was for steffi and one tv guy said that was a little surprising since the germans rolled tanks through town.

as far as i know steffi was not driving any of them...

I always knew many people who dislike steffi and insult her for being cold do that refering to a certain period. I mean a person on wx even called me a gestapomember. I guess that says enough :rolleyes:

hingis-seles
Aug 9th, 2003, 11:59 AM
Irma, who called you a gestapomember?! :eek:

irma
Aug 9th, 2003, 12:12 PM
jks he said something that we from the graf gestapo were always interfering in anything. just the word gestapo annoyed the hell out of me. I said nothing then since I thought it was not worth it but it still made me mad :o

Monsters
Sep 25th, 2003, 11:27 PM
she should have become #1 for a long long time:(

Cybelle Darkholme
Sep 25th, 2003, 11:53 PM
Did he try to kill her as a result of the Serb-Cro war and should Monica make her return finally to Germany?


Because she deserved it! She wore those short short skirts! She wore that madonna hair! Those frosted highlights! What was she thinking??? The spandex! Those hair clips! The make up and eyeliner! That cutesy girl smile! She was just asking for it! She was making steffi look bad Parche couldn't have his precious looking bad!

He loved precious! Precious was winning and sparkling and beautiful in a german kind of way! Pecious must win! Seles bad she beat Precious! Precious cry and hurt and Parche must do something!!!

bello
Sep 26th, 2003, 12:20 AM
Its so sad that Parshe did succeed in preventing Monica from becoming the greatest in history..which most thought she would do, Monica would have been number one AT LEAT til 1997 i believe..maybe longer

Sam L
Sep 26th, 2003, 12:20 AM
Because she deserved it! She wore those short short skirts! She wore that madonna hair! Those frosted highlights! What was she thinking??? The spandex! Those hair clips! The make up and eyeliner! That cutesy girl smile! She was just asking for it! She was making steffi look bad Parche couldn't have his precious looking bad!

He loved precious! Precious was winning and sparkling and beautiful in a german kind of way! Pecious must win! Seles bad she beat Precious! Precious cry and hurt and Parche must do something!!!
Did you forget your medication on your way today? :confused: ;)

wateva
Sep 26th, 2003, 12:44 AM
Because she deserved it! She wore those short short skirts! She wore that madonna hair! Those frosted highlights! What was she thinking??? The spandex! Those hair clips! The make up and eyeliner! That cutesy girl smile! She was just asking for it! She was making steffi look bad Parche couldn't have his precious looking bad!

He loved precious! Precious was winning and sparkling and beautiful in a german kind of way! Pecious must win! Seles bad she beat Precious! Precious cry and hurt and Parche must do something!!!

i suspect the parche is here...