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View Full Version : Sick of Graf and Navratilova fans fighting over who is the best of all time?


BCP
Jan 29th, 2002, 02:35 AM
OK then, who is number 3?

Chris Evert?
Billie Jean King?
Monica Seles?
Margaret Court?
Suzanne Lenglen?
Lil' Mo?
Evonne Goolagong?

Or maybe you would leave Graf or Navratilova, or both out of the Top 2.........

irma
Jan 29th, 2002, 02:53 AM
here comes the Monica-Steffi battle again. I will start Monica is the greatest because she was stabbed by a Steffi fan but she isn`t the greatest because she was to lazy to play doubles(he nav fans used that argument for Steffi while she still won wimbledon in 88 so in that case it also counts for Monica who never played doubles after aussie open 91 till she was stabbed in grand slams), My conclusion is that Kimmy is the greatest because somebody told me tonight that being greatest only depends on taste but then Steffi is my all time fav but she is left out here and since I never supported any player as hard as Kimmy after Steffi, she must be the greatest:D

Gallofa
Jan 29th, 2002, 03:07 AM
It doesn't matter how you ask, ball change pls, the minute they get here, they'll get into the thread to start arguing over N.1 again :D ;)

Personally, I would give Chris Evert the N.3 of all time... I would consider BJK, if I didn't personally dislike her so ;) (I wouldn't even nominate her for the "worst glasses award" just for not having to have her on the podium ;)) ... I think Evonne and Seles are behind... and Court and Lenglen, I really think greatness comes with having great rivals... I would place them above Evonne, Seles and BJK (of course! ;)), but not over Evert.

BCP
Jan 29th, 2002, 03:58 AM
I agree with you Gallofa. I would put Evert no 3 for the following reasons:

* same era as Navratilova, but still 28 GS singles
* no.2 in most tournaments won as well as singles matches won (behind Martina)
* 3 Wimbeldon titles despite grass being her worst surface
* 125 match winning streak on clay
* only one loss before the QF of all grandslams entered, and only 4 times lost before semis overall- amazing!

I'm a little biased towards Evert though, and against Margaret!:( ;) . I wouldn't even put Margaret Court in the top 5 even though she has the most grandslam singles titles!

Irma, let the Seles debate begin! For once, it will not be used in relation to Garf, but to elevate seles!

I would probably put Lenglan 4 and seles 5, and BJK 6........

BCP
Jan 29th, 2002, 03:59 AM
I just read my post. Sorry about the GS typo. I meant 18 (though 28 would have been nice...say 10 more Wimbeldons;) )

Lisbeth
Jan 29th, 2002, 05:01 AM
BJK. I have no idea if she was the best player but she is one cool lady.

saki
Jan 29th, 2002, 05:54 AM
I think Chris Evert is definitely the #3 greatest player. 18 GSs and that amazing clay record.

BJK is a close 4th, and Seles 5th. Both were a little unfortunate with injuries.

Simon
Jan 29th, 2002, 06:24 AM
I'd also go for Chris Evert at all-time No.3. The total number of weeks at No.1 is important in my book, and Chris Evert places third.

Volcana
Jan 29th, 2002, 06:38 AM
You can only play who shows up.

Is Steffi's record inflated because a better player (at the time) was off the tour for three years.

Is Court's record inflated because the top players didn't all play OZ in those days?

Chris Evert relates a story of a GS final she skunked BJK pretty badly in. Later she found out Billie Jean had been running around the city all day meeting with tour sponsors and potential sponsors while Chrissie was resting up for the final. How many more GS tiltles would BJK have won if she had been focusing solely on tennis like her competition, instead of also being the driving force behind building the tour?

How many championships would Margo or Martina or Steffi or Chrissie have won with the rackets and training techniques available to Helen Wills Moody (19 GS singles titles)?

I can make a sound defense for

#1 Court
#2 Navratilova
#3 King
#4 Graf
#5 Evert
#6 Moody
#7 Seles

That isn't the order I happen to believe in, but it's defensible.

All time best will never be answered.

For you Americans - Babe Ruth vs Barry Bonds?

Ruth had a higher average, but pitching was a lot worse in those days. And no Black players. And no relief pitchers. OTOH, expansion has diluted the quality of pitching today.

In short, the discussion is fun, as long as you don't expect agreement at the end of day.

If all these players had been forced to work with the equipment, training and sexism Helen Wills Moody endured, they wouldn't have come close to her. (Now, how can you DIS-prove that statement?)

barmaid
Jan 29th, 2002, 06:49 AM
I pick Navratilova over Graf simply because of her doubles victories..and no question who is third...Evert...the others pale in their wake. :hearts: :hearts: :hearts:
barmaid:wavey:

BCP
Jan 29th, 2002, 06:58 AM
It seems that there is a resounding rally by Evert for no.3 so far. DoubleFault will be pleased.

Does 8 out of 9 grandslam titles make Monica a contender for no 3?

anton
Jan 29th, 2002, 07:08 AM
1-Steffi Graf
2-Venus Williams
3-Serena Williams

Rollo
Jan 29th, 2002, 11:38 AM
Volcana-the King final Evert was referring to wasn't a slam. It was Philadelphia in 1978.

To be considered for an all-time #1 you have to have something others don't. Using that logic, only a few are "contenders' for the top.

In order by date played.

Lenglen- dominant(lost only once after the age of 14), won lots of majors,including 6 Wimbledons.

Wills-again dominant(won about 180 matches straight and undefeated for nearly 7 years. If the Aussie isn't counted, she has the most major event wins.

Court-has the most slams(24)-though 12 of those are in the weakest, the Aussie. And a grand slam, in 1970.

Evert-Has lots of slams(18), record 13 years straight as a winner in majors(1974-86)-consistency her unique advantage.

Navratilova-Has lots of slams(18)-most dominant season among those after World War II(losing one match in 1983)-strongest case is she has the most titles(9) at the most important event, Wimbledon.

Graf-has the most slams outside Court(22). Grand slam in 1988.
Only one with 4 wins in each slam.

Outside those 6 no "expert" has ever chosen another candidate. Personally, I think Evert's case is the weakest of the 6, but if consistency was the only criteria, she would be #1.



This excludes those NEAR the top who for one reason or another have gaps or less titles. These women are often in an-time top ten, but you'll never see them listed at the top.

Connolly-won 9 straight slams entered,including a 1953 grand slam. Simply had too short a career to(ended in a horseriding accident) move up. Before Court came along in the 1960's, she was always #3 on all-time lists. Big question mark for what might have been.

King-has lots of slams(13?) but is clearly behind Court, Evert, Martina, etc. Only has 1 slam on clay, her weakest surface. Missed a chance at a grand slam in 1972 when she didn't play the Aussie.

Seles-has won lots of slams(9), may add to others, but without a Wimbledon title on her weakest surface, she can't move up. Of course her stabbing puts a big question mark on what might have been.

JonBcn
Jan 29th, 2002, 11:45 AM
I cant choose between Graf and Navratilova for #1, there are excellent cases for both, but definitely evert #3!

Bright Red
Jan 29th, 2002, 11:49 AM
Anyway you cut it Martina N. is the all-time greatest. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Williams Rulez
Jan 29th, 2002, 12:09 PM
I believe it is Evert. Taking into account her competition, she still manages to have a 125 match streak on clay as well as 18 slams. She also has the second highest amount of titles on the tour. Futhermore, she has only on one occasion lost before the QFs of a slam. That is truly amazing.

SM
Jan 29th, 2002, 12:18 PM
imho
1) seles
2) steffi
3) navratilova
.....big gap

BCP
Jan 29th, 2002, 01:53 PM
Rollo, I would be interested to hear why you would put Evert in at number 6. I think that she was as dominant in the 70s as Navratilova in the 80s and graf in the 90s. Sure she didn't have a year when she only lost one match, but she had her own unique records. I think though that the most dominant strecthes in the modern era were when Martina won six grandslams on the trot, and Monicas 8 out of 9 slams.

Someone said in another thread that Evonne's achievements are always underrated. it is interesting her name has not been raised in the debate.....

irma
Jan 29th, 2002, 02:19 PM
It was Steffi who won 8 out of 9 grand slams from 88-90, Monica had 7 out of 8 in 91-92. Steffi`s also reached 13 grand slam finals in a row from 87 till 90.

essielewis
Jan 29th, 2002, 04:21 PM
Don't argue with Irma. ;) She can quote you the scores of every Steffi match. Irma LOVES Steffi.:hearts:

Anyway, I think Steffi Graf is the all time best player with Martina Nav. second and Chrissy third. In fact, I would make them just about equal because, as someone else said, they each dominated at various times.

P.S. I love Steffi too. :kiss:

Double Fault
Jan 30th, 2002, 02:09 AM
Yes, Ball Change please it does make me happy. :)

Of course I'd put Chris in 3rd place. Graf and Navratilova can fight it out for that top spot until the cows come home, but Chris Evert will be sitting pretty at #3 imo.

That darn Kathy Jordan spoilt her perfect record. :( I'm sure she would have reached the semi's that year.

Personally I'd put Navratilova at the top of the heap. But then I did see a lot of her matches and grew to admire her over the years.

Gallofa. The worst glasses award!! LMAO. Now, why don't you like Ms. King? Surely it wasn't her specs! ;) :)

BCP
Jan 30th, 2002, 02:14 AM
Doublefault, join me in going

:( :( :( :( :( :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: ;)
To Kathy Jordan!

BTW Irma, Thanks for the corrections (I am sometimes too lazy to check my facts!;) )

Double Fault
Jan 30th, 2002, 02:22 AM
I'm joining you ball change please.
:( :mad: :( :mad: ;)

I know what I'd like to do with her frying pan grip.:D ;)

Rollo
Jan 30th, 2002, 02:39 AM
LOL. So true essielewis, so true. Irma's a nice fan though, unless Steffi is attacked:)

One observation. It's always the latest girl who wins the "votes" in these type things. That's just a combination of human nature and short memories(or no memories) I suppose. That of course, and people voting for their favorites.


Ballchange, I didn't mean by my last post that would rank Evert at #6. Far from it. I was a bit unclear. What I meant was that of all the 6 undisputed candidates for the VERY TOP position, she'd be the hardest to defend IMO at #1. On most lists she is NEAR the top at say 3 or 4. but rarely put at #1.

Chrissie has great years, especially from 1974 to 1978, but she never won 3 slams in one year or lost less than 4 matches in a year.

Goolagong, much as I love her, was clearly a class below those listed here. All the women we've mentioned have been #1 at least 3 years. Evonne did it once(1971). Outside the Aussie she won only 3 slams. That's a great record, and she ranks in any all time list, but not in the top 10. Evonne reminds me of Sanchez-Vicario, a few slams and more finals loses. Had either won some of those close finals they lost they would had grander reputations.

Last point-while all these women were talented, circumstances both helped and hurt each one. Consider just one point:


the surface makes the champion

Evert was lucky the US Open moved away from grass to clay in 1975-then to hard courts. 10 of her slams were on clay. Then again, Evert often had to play slams on her least favorite surface-grass.

Martina was lucky the Aussie stayed on grass til 1988. Of course, she would have done even better had the US Open and the Aussie stayed on grass.

Graf and Court were the only modern champs not weak on grass or clay, but Steffi was a bit lucky that the year she got her grand slam(1988), was the first year it was played on hard courts. You have to think Martina may have stopped Graf on grass early in 1988.

Seles would have won a lot less slams playing in the 1970's, when 3 of 4 were on grass. She's a hard court/clay surface demon, but hasn't yet proved she can win on grass, even at her peak.

King won all of her slams on grass except one. The change from grass to clay at the US Open hurt King and helped Evert. BJK didn't bother to defend her title from 1974 when they dug up the grass.

Venus will have a hard time moving up until she proves she can win on clay.

BCP
Jan 30th, 2002, 02:49 AM
Thanks Doublefault! Us Evert fans have got to stick together!

Hey Rollo:wavey: I agree with you about peopel with short memories. I only put Lenglen etc in from what I am told (I wasn't even born then!;) ). I think a major contributing reason why Evert didn't win 3 grandslams in one year was that the French and AO were dogs in her prime years. Did she ever win the VS Championships (or year end equivalent) and Colgate in the same year that she won 2 slams? If she did, she won the grandslam!
(I know, I know, I'm grasping at straws)


Evert won 5 grandslams on grass (not bad!), and I think she made a whole slew of Wimbeldon Fianls (7?), only losing them to Martina (?)

I will remember not to argue with Irma re: steffi;)

mishar
Jan 30th, 2002, 02:55 AM
The interesting thing to me is not who's #3, but who is #10.

Generally most agree on the top 9:
Lenglen - Wills Moody
Connelly
Court-King
Navratilova-Evert
Graf-Seles

But if you would only take 10, who would be the tenth?

Possibles:
Evonne Goolagong
Maria Bueno
Althea Gibson
Martina Hingis
Venus Williams
Or?

What do you all think?

BCP
Jan 30th, 2002, 03:44 AM
HANA MANDLIKOVA;)

Rollo
Jan 30th, 2002, 09:24 PM
Good question Mishar-

You could really argue this, though I'd say a minimum to qualify is 5 slams. Venus is not quite there yet.



Hmmmm ball change-you're not REALLY grasping at straws there, your point is valid IMO.
In 1976 the Aussie and French were, as you put it "dogs" and the Slims was called the " third jewel in the triple crown". In 1977 Evert won all the big events(the Slims and Masters) except Wimbledon, but she never put the two tour finales with two slams in one year. Though Evert wasn't as dominant as Martina, surafce had a lot to do with it. In her salad days Evert had Martina, Goolagong King, and Wade. All of them were tough at net, and most events were on indoor sufaces where Chris was at a disadvantage. Evonne was the only one who dared to consistently face Chris on Evert turf-clay.

Please count me in as part of the Evert fan club too, even if I'm a critical fan. She was my second fav, after Virginia Wade, the love of my heart:hearts:

Gallofa
Jan 30th, 2002, 09:39 PM
Double Fault, hehe, don't get me started on Ms. King! - it's the Olympic thing (I know, again! ;)) - I am not forgiving her for not taking Lisa Raymond anytime soon... she sold the dreams of a person for a piece of gold... what a Judas!

And I know I am completely irrational about it! LOL - but it is *my* pet grudge! and I will hold onto it!! :D ;)

Who's N.10? Hmmm.... I'd say Evonne :) I like her. Hingis and Venus have the potential to not only become N.10 but to get going up the list... so does Jennifer it seems :D

Double Fault
Jan 31st, 2002, 01:27 AM
Bea, I had forgotten about the Olympic thing. My Bad! Of course Ms. King will now have to go into the pot along with that Miss. Jordan woman. ;) :)

Sam L
Jan 31st, 2002, 04:59 PM
Rollo: "...but hasn't yet proved she can win on grass, even at her peak." That's a little unfair regarding Monica. Remember, Monica's last grass court result before IT happened was finalist at Wimbledon at age 18. NB: The best that Steffi Graf had ever managed by the age of 18 was also a finalist appearance at Wimbledon! :o

I think she has proven herself on grass (considering the circumstances), would be nice if she gets a Wimbledon, but really her best chances 93-95 are gone. But I still have hope ;)