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View Full Version : Who is better?? (check post #13 and #41)


Knizzle
Jun 25th, 2003, 09:02 AM
Despite the rankings, does anyone believe that Kim Clijsters is a better player than Venus or Serena?? I am having a discussion with someone over this topic, and I can't grasp why they believe Clijsters is a better player than either WS.

Rtael
Jun 25th, 2003, 09:03 AM
Better then Venus this year for sure....but not better then Serena....no way...

Rtael
Jun 25th, 2003, 09:04 AM
She hasn't even beaten either of them this year =P

Knizzle
Jun 25th, 2003, 09:06 AM
Better then Venus this year for sure....but not better then Serena....no way...

I'm referring to overall better player. I know she has gained more points than Venus so far this year, even more than Serena in fact, but I'm talking despite ranking points.

Nemesis
Jun 25th, 2003, 09:07 AM
Serena and Venus are better than Kim.

Serena clearly. She won in the AO by stepping up her game in the third set. That was the normal Serena and Kim could not do anything about it. Another example in Scottsdale: Serena winning 6-2 6-4 or something like that.

Venus is better too, but she's beginning to lose her form. She showed in Antwerp that if her motivation is high, she is clearly better then Kim. If she would concentrate 100% on tennis, she would be number 2. But if she doesn't do that, it's her mistake that she is number 4 in the world and not 2 ...

Rollo
Jun 25th, 2003, 09:20 AM
Being objective Serena is clearly better than Clijsters.

Venus? Get real. It's 2003 baby, and as some Williams fans like to say, the sisters aren't the same. Venus has won-count em (oops count IT)
ONE event in about 6 events. Sh'es been knocked out early of one one slam-and in the other slam Kim came closer to beating Serena than Venus. And Kim has won more than one event.

There are your reasons Knizzle. Objective reasons. Venus can't claim to be superior so far in 2003 based either on slams, regular tour wins, or even a win-loss percentage. And past glory doesn't cut it.

That leaves you with Venus' 1-0 record vs. Kim so far this year.


I'm not saying Clijsters will end up being better at year's end-Wimbledon and the US Open are usually where Venus shines. She's gotta prove it it though. So far for 2003 Clijsters is clearly above Venus.

Both are in the same section of the draw here. If they meet in the semi it will tell us a lot about where they really stand:)

Diya
Jun 25th, 2003, 09:25 AM
All the "So ans SO player is better than some other" is subjective and varies from one person to another depending on how much he/she likes that player! We may try to sound as objective as we could but we never are .....To you Kim is just isn't as "good" as the W/S because she has not won a slam or because she doesn't beat them often or because she doesn't have as good a H2H record against the other player. But have you ever noticed that at her age her record is as good if not better than that of either of the sisters at 20! ...and she is still improving and learning ! Venus had an atrocious H2H against Lindsay till 1999-2000 but all that changed only in the last three years. Same with Serena and Jennifer !Kim at her age is better than most other players and in the time to come she is only going to get better !The question is "better" in what respect ? Don't you think the Venus of today is "better" than the Venus of say 1999 . Yes she is... Why ?? because she improved ...Similarly the Serena today is a much better player than what she was in 2001 .

So why is Kim # 1 right now ? Because she has done better than what she did last year while the others have not ! The rankings compare a players performance not only against their opponents but also against that players performance in the previous 52 weeks !

Gowza
Jun 25th, 2003, 09:26 AM
based on majors kim is better than venus at the moment this year and this tournament will decide whether she is better than serena but that is discounting the quality of players each had to play in the majors (i don't know who they each played and i can't be bothered looking it up).

this year:

kim = SF oz open, Final RG
venus: RU oz open, 4th round RG
serena: Winner oz open, SF RG

all 3 are in the 2nd round of wimbledon. imo the only way kim can be said to be better than serena this year up to the end of wimbledon would be if kim was to win wimbledon and serena was to lose in the semi-finals or if kim was to get 2 extra wins than serena at wimbledon. if she gets one more win then they are equal. but that doesn't factor in the players each have played so i guess it is arguable who is better.

Knizzle
Jun 25th, 2003, 09:55 AM
OK. Showdown between Clijsters and the WS. best of ten matches against each WS how many would Clijsters win??

I'd say about 2 out of the 10.

The WS also perform better than Clijsters vs. the top ten and top twenty.

If you looked at the winning percentages of tournaments played to tournaments won, I'm sure the WS would come out ahead of Clijsters also.

Knizzle
Jun 25th, 2003, 09:56 AM
Diya, I saw your post on the prediction game LOL!!

ans
Jun 25th, 2003, 10:04 AM
oh, I'm having a "déjà vu", I think. Isn't this like the tenth time or something that we are discussing this??
There hasn't been a match between kim and the williams sisters since a long time. So, maybe you should let it rest and comment after the semis, if they get that far...

Knizzle
Jun 25th, 2003, 10:07 AM
All the "So ans SO player is better than some other" is subjective and varies from one person to another depending on how much he/she likes that player! We may try to sound as objective as we could but we never are .....To you Kim is just isn't as "good" as the W/S because she has not won a slam or because she doesn't beat them often or because she doesn't have as good a H2H record against the other player. But have you ever noticed that at her age her record is as good if not better than that of either of the sisters at 20! ...and she is still improving and learning ! Venus had an atrocious H2H against Lindsay till 1999-2000 but all that changed only in the last three years. Same with Serena and Jennifer !Kim at her age is better than most other players and in the time to come she is only going to get better !The question is "better" in what respect ? Don't you think the Venus of today is "better" than the Venus of say 1999 . Yes she is... Why ?? because she improved ...Similarly the Serena today is a much better player than what she was in 2001 .

So why is Kim # 1 right now ? Because she has done better than what she did last year while the others have not ! The rankings compare a players performance not only against their opponents but also against that players performance in the previous 52 weeks !

Diya, if you go by the year to year then if Clijsters doesn't win a slam here at Wimbledon, she will be behind Venus because Venus won a slam in her fourth full year. This is Clijsters fourth full year, but she also played a partial year in 1999 with 8 tournaments and one title so that year could be included since she won a title. Not saying Kim won't improve, but since you say she is already better than the WS relative to where they are in their respective careers Kim Clijsters should be the greatest player on earth.

Knizzle
Jun 26th, 2003, 03:08 AM
Basically, Venus and Serena can reach levels of play on the court that Clijsters just can't touch, and their mental toughness sets them apart from Clijsters also. This is why I believe both are far better players than Kim Clijsters. Maybe Clijsters will be on their level or surpass them someday, but today ain't that day.

disposablehero
Jun 26th, 2003, 03:14 AM
Since last years US Open, Venus has ONE Tier II title. That's it.

Kim has a Tour Championships, 2 Tier I's, 2 Tier II's, and 2 Tier III's.

Next question?

F-R-E-A-K
Jun 26th, 2003, 03:16 AM
shes won 6 titles this year and been in what 9 finals??

She playing way to much tennis! But she keeping with it! soo keep it going kimmy!

alexusjonesfan
Jun 26th, 2003, 03:16 AM
OK. Showdown between Clijsters and the WS. best of ten matches against each WS how many would Clijsters win??

I'd say about 2 out of the 10.

The WS also perform better than Clijsters vs. the top ten and top twenty.

If you looked at the winning percentages of tournaments played to tournaments won, I'm sure the WS would come out ahead of Clijsters also.

Hey, that doesn't seem fair! Kimmie plays 20 matches while Vee and Rena get away with half that! Of course she'd lose all her matches with the second sister after she was done with the first one, that is if she didn't pass out from exhaustion first. You cruel cruel man! :mad:

Knizzle
Jun 26th, 2003, 03:58 AM
Since last years US Open, Venus has ONE Tier II title. That's it.

Kim has a Tour Championships, 2 Tier I's, 2 Tier II's, and 2 Tier III's.

Next question?

I didn't hear you mention Serena in this post.

Knizzle
Jun 26th, 2003, 03:59 AM
shes won 6 titles this year and been in what 9 finals??

She playing way to much tennis! But she keeping with it! soo keep it going kimmy!

I think Kim has only 4 titles instead of 6.

Knizzle
Jun 26th, 2003, 04:00 AM
Hey, that doesn't seem fair! Kimmie plays 20 matches while Vee and Rena get away with half that! Of course she'd lose all her matches with the second sister after she was done with the first one, that is if she didn't pass out from exhaustion first. You cruel cruel man! :mad:

LOL!!

disposablehero
Jun 26th, 2003, 04:00 AM
I didn't hear you mention Serena in this post.

I'm not disputing Serena's supremacy, yet.

Knizzle
Jun 26th, 2003, 04:03 AM
I'm not disputing Serena's supremacy, yet.

Don't you agree that Venus can reach a level of play that Clijsters cannot match?? Venus is having a down year no doubt, but she can do things, and play tennis that Clijsters can't. Kim has admitted it herself.

disposablehero
Jun 26th, 2003, 04:05 AM
Don't you agree that Venus can reach a level of play that Clijsters cannot match??

Nope. At the Home Depot Championships, Kim was at a level Serena couldn't touch. And nearly did it again at AO. Serena is better than Venus.

Knizzle
Jun 26th, 2003, 04:11 AM
Nope. At the Home Depot Championships, Kim was at a level Serena couldn't touch. And nearly did it again at AO. Serena is better than Venus.

Are you nuts?? Serena wasn't even trying. She refused to chase down balls. Kim played well, but it was hardly a level that Serena couldn't touch. Now at the AO when Clijsters had her 2nd match point at 5-2 Serena went to a level that Clijsters couldn't touch and rattled off the next five games to win. Clijsters admitted she couldn't do anything about it, and she says she didn't choke.

o0O0o
Jun 26th, 2003, 04:19 AM
Are you nuts?? Serena wasn't even trying. She refused to chase down balls.

Clijsters hit SIX winners.

And how exactly did Serena refuse to chase down balls?

disposablehero
Jun 26th, 2003, 04:21 AM
I'm sure Serena didn't bother trying in the 5th biggest event of the year, in her hometown.

Midnite Surfer
Jun 26th, 2003, 04:32 AM
Did Kim's leg fall off in Antwerp or something? Because the last time I checked the score was Venus 6-2 6-4.

Knizzle
Jun 26th, 2003, 04:32 AM
Clijsters hit SIX winners.

And how exactly did Serena refuse to chase down balls?

What good is getting a racket on it if you don't put yourself in a position to get the ball back over the net.

And make sure you tell disposable hero this stat since he said Kim Clijsters played at a level in that match that Serena could never touch.

Knizzle
Jun 26th, 2003, 04:34 AM
Did Kim's leg fall off in Antwerp or something? Because the last time I checked the score was Venus 6-2 6-4.

Exactly, but they refuse to believe that H2H has anything to do with it. It's all about racking up the ranking points to them. H2H is not everything, but in this case it is a big factor.

Midnite Surfer
Jun 26th, 2003, 04:36 AM
What good is getting a racket on it if you don't put yourself in a position to get the ball back over the net.

And make sure you tell disposable hero this stat since he said Kim Clijsters played at a level in that match that Serena could never touch.

A level that Serena couldn't touch? Serena just won the slam. What is this argument based on. There may be a slight, oh so slight argument between Kim and Venus. But Kim and Serena? Serena has been playing at a level that no one else can touch for the past 16-17 months. :rolleyes:

This is going down as one of the lamest threads ever.

Knizzle
Jun 26th, 2003, 04:50 AM
A level that Serena couldn't touch? Serena just won the slam. What is this argument based on. There may be a slight, oh so slight argument between Kim and Venus. But Kim and Serena? Serena has been playing at a level that no one else can touch for the past 16-17 months. :rolleyes:

This is going down as one of the lamest threads ever.

LOL!! That's what he said!! I asked him if he was nuts?? He must be.

disposablehero
Jun 26th, 2003, 04:57 AM
LOL!! That's what he said!! I asked him if he was nuts?? He must be.

Did she touch that level? No, she got beat down with hardly a whimper. So yes, Kim can compete on the necessary level.

Note to Venus: 1 title in 10 months isn't that great. you might want to pick up another soon.

Dawn Marie
Jun 26th, 2003, 05:07 AM
Venus and Serena are better players against Kim than Kim is against either one of them.

Venus hasn't played much at all this year.. where as Kim has. That doesn't reflect my opinon that Vee is a better player than Kim.


Kurt,now come on.. Serena was tired from a grueling match with Jennifer. Not saying Kim didn't EARN that win but Kim did not take it up another level that Serena couldn't touch. If that is so then what happened to that level of tennis from Kim cause she sure didn't repeat it at OZ or RG?

Dawn Marie
Jun 26th, 2003, 05:12 AM
I see were talking QUANITY again..

Disposable wrote: "Note to Venus: 1 title in 10 months isn't that great. you might want to pick up another soon".


Note to Kim: 0 slams in 48 months isn't that great. you might want to pick up one soon. If u want to be considered a true #1.

stephano hair
Jun 26th, 2003, 05:15 AM
Note to DM: no1 cares bout ur opinions coz u r obviously an arrogant williams fans who is threatened by kim's ability to be number 1.

NB: 2 french open grand slam finals 4 clijsters, 0 for williams sisters.

Knizzle
Jun 26th, 2003, 05:21 AM
NB: 2 french open grand slam finals 4 clijsters, 0 for williams sisters.

Huh?? Weren't the WS in the final last year??

stephano hair
Jun 26th, 2003, 05:28 AM
oops, lol, i meant 1 :p

and also, venus is like 3/4 years older than kim so compare kims career when she's that age to venus now-then we can discuss GS title etc

Midnite Surfer
Jun 26th, 2003, 07:05 AM
oops, lol, i meant 1 :p

and also, venus is like 3/4 years older than kim so compare kims career when she's that age to venus now-then we can discuss GS title etc

Dude, you need to be quiet until Kim wins a slam. I like Kim a lot but I hardly think we can compare her results in the last year to either Serena or Venus's. Kim was in two French finals but what is your point? Venus was a finalist in 8 of the last 12 grand slams and she was the winner in 4 of those. Plus Venus made it to the final of the US Open in her debut there at the age of 17. We all know what Serena has done. So I am begging you, what is your point? :confused:

Primula
Jun 26th, 2003, 07:53 AM
Dude, you need to be quiet until Kim wins a slam. I like Kim a lot but I hardly think we can compare her results in the last year to either Serena or Venus's. Kim was in two French finals but what is your point? Venus was a finalist in 8 of the last 12 grand slams and she was the winner in 4 of those. Plus Venus made it to the final of the US Open in her debut there at the age of 17. We all know what Serena has done. So I am begging you, what is your point? :confused:


Kim made it to the RG-final when she was 17, so what's YOUR point?

Lien
Jun 26th, 2003, 09:02 AM
Kim-fans pleasel leave it people will always critize her for that and always say she doesn't deserve to be number one and so on. Actually Kim doesn't even CARE about the whole thing, she doesn't even want to know what she has to do to gain that spot ( I read it in an interview, the reporter asked 'Do you know how far you have to go in order to get that number one ranking', she simply said I have to play tennis and I don't care about the points I need to have that spot). You're all making one big deal about it and complaining already cause anything can happen, Serena can win or maybe even Kim you just don't know yet.

About the ranking if quality always reigns above quantity ok fine, but hey what do you get 4 slams in a year and ok the masters and maybe two or three important tier I and that is it. The system is there to encourage the players to play, if Serena would only have to play these tournaments in order to keep her ranking, she would certainly play those alone and what do you get then. A number one player you only see six times in a year.
If you all think that the whole system is so screwed up go ahead become the boss of the whole wtatour stuff and change the rankingsystem, I am sure alot smarter people worked to develop that ranking system than some people here who clearly think that they are the greatest and smartest creatures here on earth.

I don't care about that number one spot, media and people always make fuss about it. I just want her to be happy in what she does and she clearly is.

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to say this about the matter.

calabar
Jun 26th, 2003, 12:11 PM
http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?threadid=76093

scroll down to the bottom of this thread.

stephano hair
Jun 26th, 2003, 01:04 PM
well it doesnt matter neways. KIM IS NUMBER 2 WHILE VENUS IS NUMBER 4. it doesnt matter how many GS' were won, the fact of the matter is that clijsters is ranked higher and shuld kim and venus play each other, it would not be surprising if kim won.

Knizzle
Jul 4th, 2003, 08:06 AM
Despite the rankings, does anyone believe that Kim Clijsters is a better player than Venus or Serena?? I am having a discussion with someone over this topic, and I can't grasp why they believe Clijsters is a better player than either WS.

In hindsight everyone take a look at post #13. This is exactly what happened in the SF. Venus went to a level that Kim couldn't touch. Kim was playing well, but Venus went above and beyond her. This is what I was talking about.