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fleemke³
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:52 PM
Well some journalists did ask Justine's opinion about the thing with the first serve. This is her version:

Well I did raise my hand but Serena saw it and choose to serve after all. It was up to the umpire to decide what to do witj it but I didn't do anything wrong so I didn't say anything.

Well that's about it...

I made this topic only because some people were wondering why nobody asked it on Justine during the interview yesterday. This is from the interview today :)

Sanneriet
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:23 PM
Perfectly understandable that Justine felt that Serena didn't deserve another first serve, since JHH felt Serena chose to serve anyway. We should try to remember that this was an extremely tense match, being played under difficult circumstances, and not expect perfect reactions by any player.

katrientje
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:27 PM
thanx Fleem! I was going to post this too, b/c it needs to be said.

SJW
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:30 PM
yea ok and if the serve went in then???....:confused:

katrientje
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:31 PM
yea ok and if the serve went in then???....:confused:

Who knows??

Fedcup
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:31 PM
Yes, but in the mean time Justine lost a lot of credit in the whole tennisworld thkx to the allegations from Serena.

This comment of Justine from today won't be broadcasted. Instead all of the TV-stations are showing the press-conference of Serena "saying Justine cheated".

Damage is already done.

I already said it yesterday that I couldn't understand Serena her remarks cause she served anyway. She shouldn't have asked for that first serve again. That was unfair from her too

katrientje
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:34 PM
I feel bad too because the press really made a huge story about this and actually it wasn't a big thing. And even in the flemish press they only gave serena's comments about ju being unfair and a liar and didn't really give any other information about this. So if you didn't see the match you would think it's the complete truth, which it obviously wasn't...

I really hope this will be forgotten soon, because it was a big big nothing

Nemesis
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:35 PM
I already said it yesterday that I couldn't understand Serena her remarks cause she served anyway. She shouldn't have asked for that first serve again. That was unfair from her too

No, Serena was right. It's like that in the rules: you must get a new serve if the opponent asks a small pause and you have served.

I don't like Justine's passiveness. Her great win is overshadowed with it ... Bad choice ... But I'll remain a fan.

Ask yourself this question: what if the second serve was out?! Outburst by Serena??? Booing as a result and Justine looking even more bitchy. Serena luckily had that serve in :eek:

jenglisbe
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:42 PM
Um, Serena was already in her serve motion when Justine put her hand up - Serena didn't have much choice but to keep serving. It's hard to stop serving mid-motion. That's a crap excuse from Justine, and it's definitely passive (as Nemesis said).

Justine knows the umpire said he didn't see Justine put her hand up, and instead of admitting that she had, Justine said nothing (or denied it). That's is poor sportsmanship...and had Serena done that to Justine, I am sure Justine would have complained after the match.

katrientje
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:47 PM
Serena didn't ask Justine and neither did the umpire. If you're honest, I think not so many people would have stepped forward and said you did. Try to put yourself in the situation of being in the semi of the tournament of your dreams and this situation. I don't say it was completely correct or even fair, but I do think it was perfectly human

TonyP
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:47 PM
Are people saying Serena deliberately hit the ball into the net because she saw Justine's hand up?
Because I am not sure what Justine was supposed to do about it.

Do you think that if Serena's serve had gone in, she would have stopped the point? Usually, when a player puts their hand up, they are the ones who ask for the serve to be replayed.

I don't think I've ever seen the server ask to have the point played over.

Anyway, this is kind of much to do about not so very much, as it did NOT cost Serena a game or the match. She lost because Justine out playerd her, end of story.

fleemke³
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:47 PM
Well Jenglisbe why don't you proof me that Serena didn't see it before she tossed? You can't neither can I proof the other thing so you will allways stand up for your favo.

Leave it here, I just wanted to give Justine's version, not a new discussion about what happend. There were old-players saying on television that this wasx not a big deal and that other players, in fact even the Sisters, did things that were more worse than this thing in the semi's.

So maybe think about that first ;)

jenglisbe
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:52 PM
fleemke - Justine didn't put her hand up until Serena started her serve, so it would have been impossible for Serena to see it before she served ;)

Tony - the rules are the rules; when a player raises their hand to stop a serve/point, it's considered a let and the server gets to re-serve. Justine made a motion to stop play, and thus Serena should have gotten another 1st serve. Even the commentators acknowledged this.
As for that not making a difference - it could have made a difference. If Serena got to hit another 1st serve and had a good one, she could have gone up 40-0 and would likely have been up 5-2. Instead she had to hit a 2nd serve, lost the point, and ended up losing the game. Moreso, she had the crowd against her even more. That "incident" was a huge turning point, really.

fleemke³
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:55 PM
Proof me that Serena didn't see it ;)

DA FOREHAND
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:58 PM
". We should try to remember that this was an extremely tense match, being played under difficult circumstances, and not expect perfect reactions by any player."

You are right, but it is also during these tense situations that our character is tested, and from what I saw justine failed. Had Serena aced her I bet she would have spoken up.

GO KIM

Veronique
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:24 PM
Nemesis,

May I tell you that you're a remarkable Justine fan? I've always cheered for her over Kim and all other players she played except when she played my top 2 favs. But those days are over. She's a cheat. Kim would have owned up to her actions.

jenglisbe
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:27 PM
fleemke - how could Serena see something that had not yet happened? I just saw yet another replay of the incident, and Serena had already tossed the ball up when Justine motioned that she was not ready.

Mary Carillo said on NBC that Justine was talked to during the match and said, "Just play."

Veronique
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:27 PM
fleemke - Justine didn't put her hand up until Serena started her serve, so it would have been impossible for Serena to see it before she served ;)

Tony - the rules are the rules; when a player raises their hand to stop a serve/point, it's considered a let and the server gets to re-serve. Justine made a motion to stop play, and thus Serena should have gotten another 1st serve. Even the commentators acknowledged this.
As for that not making a difference - it could have made a difference. If Serena got to hit another 1st serve and had a good one, she could have gone up 40-0 and would likely have been up 5-2. Instead she had to hit a 2nd serve, lost the point, and ended up losing the game. Moreso, she had the crowd against her even more. That "incident" was a huge turning point, really.

Very well said!

croat123
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:28 PM
i made the slowmotion of the point even slower with my vcr and it was apparent that serena did not see justine's hand when she served as she was looking up when justine's hand went up. justine then, seeing serena didn't notice her hand, tried to bring her hand back down a would have started playing the point.

"Topaz"
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:31 PM
". We should try to remember that this was an extremely tense match, being played under difficult circumstances, and not expect perfect reactions by any player."

You are right, but it is also during these tense situations that our character is tested, and from what I saw justine failed. Had Serena aced her I bet she would have spoken up.I echo that!

jenglisbe
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:32 PM
croat1234 - It doesn't matter; it's like when a piece of paper comes on the court and a let is played. Even if that paper doesn't hinder play, a let is played. The same applies to a player stopping play; whether or not it hindered Serena's serve, the rule is that she should get a 1st serve again. Also, Serena obviously saw it at some point (or else she wouldn't have asked the umpire about it), so to that end it did "hinder" play to a degree.

Amanda
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:38 PM
Justine shouldn't have denied the incident. I really don't blame her....this is a chance to make it to a GS final. I like what Justine said...it's for the umpire to take care of. I guess means..let him/her do their job, I'll just concentrate on my tennis. Serena on the ohter hand was justified in her anger towards Justine. I guess Serena thought Justine would be honest and admit what happened. She just didn't own up. Oh well, The all-Belgian final will be a bitter sweet event for Justine or Kim...One will win their first GS Championship and join the elite list of GS winners while the other will go back to being a really good player without a GS title.

irma
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:40 PM
they are still young the final doesn't end their careers even for the loser

Danke Anke
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:41 PM
exactly, it doesnt matter if serena sees justine holding her hand up before she serves, the fact that justine did hold her hand up makes that a let (and first serve serena). i'm 99.9% sure that justine still would have won the match regardless of whether or not a first serve was played, however, if you're going to win, win fairly... i lost just a little bit of respect for her after this incident -- even though its just a minor thing, it was still unfair

Cam'ron Giles
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:50 PM
We should all let it go at this point...some believe one thing and others believe something else...I believe that Justin is a poor sport and a cheater...She did it to Lindsay and she did it here again...Her integrity as a human is well below par...HOW SAD

Hazy
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:51 PM
If Serena got to hit another 1st serve and had a good one, she could have gone up 40-0 and would likely have been up 5-2.

That's four big if's in one sentence and even then Serena wasn't going to win for certain. I think this incident has been blown way out of proportion.

faboozadoo15
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:52 PM
am i the only one who realizes that serena had no business serving during all that commotion (noise) in the firts place? they quiet down if you are patient. serena may have been rushing way too much when her opponent did not want to play the point with all the noise. however, juju put that little hand up (and serena somehow saw it), so justine should have spoken up. serena should have gotten the first serve, even if she may have been the one trying to do something underhanded. i can't believe im the only one who thinks thats a possibility...

irma
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:55 PM
That's four big if's in one sentence and even then Serena wasn't going to win for certain. I think this incident has been blown way out of proportion.


I think serena will win a slam again soon otherwise people will talk about this in 10 years :eek:

Cam'ron Giles
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:56 PM
am i the only one who realizes that serena had no business serving during all that commotion (noise) in the firts place? they quiet down if you are patient. serena may have been rushing way too much when her opponent did not want to play the point with all the noise. however, juju put that little hand up (and serena somehow saw it), so justine should have spoken up. serena should have gotten the first serve, even if she may have been the one trying to do something underhanded. i can't believe im the only one who thinks thats a possibility...


I actually thaught that too...I would have found a nice shaded spot on my end of the court and wait till the savages finish acting up... :wavey:

nander
Jun 6th, 2003, 08:00 PM
After all is said and done
Serena lost a match and potentially a GSlam (who knows? I thought Petrova might have pulled it off).
She will win many more matches and maybe even GSlams.
In my opinion, Henin-Hardenne lost much more - respect.

DA FOREHAND
Jun 6th, 2003, 08:00 PM
Venus does this as well. I think it's her way of showing the crowd that they are not affecting her.

Their parents(Venus/Serena) raised them to expect this kind of hostility and resentment, and Serena has faced truly hostile crowds before (I.W.). I still think she was very disappointed at justine's unsportsmanlike conduct.

GO KIM

SJW
Jun 6th, 2003, 08:02 PM
FED CUP you are the person who posted the thread "really pathetic Serena" right?

and judging by ur reaction to this incident it is blatantly obvious that you WERENT being objective in posting that thread, as u cannot SEEM to comprehend that YES some people find Justines behaviour wrong/appaling

now my point is whatever about the point, i cant say i really care anymore, but since it keeps being brought up, i just wanna know what woulda happened if the serve was IN :confused: Justine would have DEMANDED the point was replayed (as she would have been well within her rights to)

you know, im just disappointed in Justine, i have been fighting my feelings the past few years to think that maybe she IS a sweet person who doesnt deserve a lot of shit she gets, but seems to be getting involved in a lot of controversy recently and unfortunately i think she WILL be branded a cheat/liar etc. these labels dont just dissolve into thin air, and will be brought back up at every incident in future

this is not good for her reputation at all, and i must say that due to her seemingly loss of vocal ability at that point, she is gonna get a lot of haters. but hey you have to face the consequences in this position...

Sanneriet
Jun 6th, 2003, 08:49 PM
In rehashing all this, is seems to be forgotten again that Justine FELT that Serena saw her and chose to serve ANYWAY. I am not denying that Serena started her motion first, or deserved another first serve. Why, under these circumstances, would Justine think Serena deserved another first serve.

CapFan#1
Jun 6th, 2003, 08:50 PM
I've watched this point over and over and I looked up the rules of tennis on the USTA site. Two things really jumped out to me....
1. If there is a hinderence, a let should be played.
2. The server has a responsibility to make sure the receiver is ready. And I quote: "The server shall not serve until the Receiver is ready" "USTA Comment 12.3 May the server hit their serve just as the Receiver looks up after getting into the ready position? No. The Receiver is not ready until the Receiver is in the ready position and has a second or two to make eye contact with the Server."

Watching the replay of this point over and over, I noticed Serena never looked to even see if Justine was ready, and then after she missed her serve she then noticed that Justine had her hand up and asked for a first serve. Had Serena's serve been in, then I think should have got a re-do, but it wasn't and thus she shouldnt have got a re-do. She failed in her responsibility,as stated in the rules above, to make sure the Receiver was ready.

Smart
Jun 6th, 2003, 08:52 PM
Very needless to talk about the serve anymore. If Serena is really a sportswoman, she understand that the serve didn't decide the winner of the match. Serena led 4-2 in the third herself and she only has to look at mirror.

Hawk
Jun 6th, 2003, 08:57 PM
In rehashing all this, is seems to be forgotten again that Justine FELT that Serena saw her and chose to serve ANYWAY. I am not denying that Serena started her motion first, or deserved another first serve. Why, under these circumstances, would Justine think Serena deserved another first serve.

It's not up to Justine to decide if Serena should get another serve or not. Serena was in the middle of her service motion, whether or not she saw Justine's hand is irrelavent. According to the rules Serena is allow to take her serve over and Justine knows the rules. I personally don't feel it had any bearing on the outcome of the match but it is still a blemish on Justine.

Ambrosia
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:19 PM
Perfectly understandable that Justine felt that Serena didn't deserve another first serve, since JHH felt Serena chose to serve anyway. We should try to remember that this was an extremely tense match, being played under difficult circumstances, and not expect perfect reactions by any player.


I saw it exactly the same way. There wasn't gamesmanship on either Justine's or Serena's part. It was a very tense situation which is why on that first serve incident they miscommunicated. There was a lot of nervous energy between the two players which was exacerbated by the vocal crowd.

setpoint
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:23 PM
Come on Kim, Beat the Cheat. Everyone knows if serve had gone in Henin would have squaked all the way to Belgium. She just took advantage of best of both worlds.

Freewoman33
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:53 PM
She's a cheater and a damn liar.

TonyP
Jun 6th, 2003, 11:03 PM
If Serena saw Justine's hand up and chose to serve anyway, why should she get another serve? Would she have halted play if the serve had gone in?

I don't think so.

The question is, was the receiver ready, not the server. If she saw Justine's hand up before she struck the ball, she should have caught her toss. She chose to go through with the serve and it didn't work out for her. So, she wanted a second chance. Either she was in a position to halt the serve or she wasn't, in which case Justine's hand did not make Serena's serve go into the net.

treufreund
Jun 6th, 2003, 11:08 PM
tony p you are right but most of the people calling justine a cheater and a liar never liked her in the first place and have no real rebuttal to your post so they just scream and yell.

1jackson2001
Jun 6th, 2003, 11:53 PM
I like what Justine said.

Becool
Jun 7th, 2003, 12:33 AM
Beat the cheater Kim! Beat her!

QUEENLINDSAY
Jun 7th, 2003, 12:43 AM
Justin deserves the win!!!! No question about that coz she played better.

BUT!!! she bever earned the respect from a lot of spectators and fans. Once again she displayed her dark side. Her integrity has really been in question eversince. She does that in a desperate first win over Lindsay at AO, she strikes again today.

JUSTIN won the match, ACCEPT IT!!!
SERENA was outplayed, ACCEPT IT!!!

JUSTIN IS A CHEATER ACCEPT IT!!!!

Its all very clear!!!!

win
Jun 7th, 2003, 01:25 AM
Justine is such an evil b-word. I will not support her anymore. I heard from someone that Lindsay used to state about Justine being tricky and lack of sportmanship.

I, now, can see that it is true. Her lack of action, "didn't say anything", reflects the lack of sportmanship. And the umpire also did a bad job by not asking Justine if she did raise her hand up. Poor Serena. I feel sorry for her that she has to go through all the things every time. You have to fight your opponent, the crowd and even the umpire!??

SerialKiller#69
Jun 7th, 2003, 01:41 AM
I think I read somewhere that Serena was affected by the hand-raise motion, causing her to dump the ball to the net. She asked if she could serve again. I personally think that in some other circumstances she could have pushed to serve again, but with that crowd, I understand why she didn't pursue it. If I were Serena, I'd be disappointed too and might lose my focus after that incident. But Justine's win is a *deserved* win because she could have easily crumbled too. The atmosphere was chaotic and intense. She was playing a very tough player who has I believe the best mental resilience in the tour. Even if the support was clearly for her, it could have easily made her nervous too and lose concentration.

fammmmedspin
Jun 7th, 2003, 02:50 AM
Thankyou Cappy4ever - obviously no one read the post.
As no one knows what Justine thought Serena did and we don't know what Serena saw (or indeed if she was even looking) or how she interpreted it and what if any effect this had on the trajectory of her ball (which ended up in the net on plenty of other first serves) it seems a pretty silly point to argue over. When a player is ready or not or when a hand message is still in force or not is a matter of perception and both players perceptions are different and both have motives for their version.

You also need to remember the context - Serena is being howled at by the mob, she is trying to put everything into her serve, Justine and the Umpire are in the same deafening roar, Justine is concentrating on the ball, not trying to work out why Serena has served it at her or going mentally through the rule book, and Serena is in tears and shock when she "remembers" all this.

You also need to identify the culprit. It isn't Justine's job to call a let. Its the umpire's job to decide if Serena was hindered. He has to decide what was going on - indeed he should know. He seems to have decided Serena was not hindered and served anyway as she indeed had the right to. Its understandable that the server who doesn't catch the ball but serves anyway isn't going to get the serve again as he could have players claiming all the time that their opponent had done something to hinder their first serve. He hasn't got slow motion or mind-reading capability to work out when small motions or thoughts happened. Neither do the players.

Which gets back to point two. I don't recall seeing any of this on my TV coverage. What I can see is Serena trying to serve against a baying mob. Unseen hand-gestures are not important - the noise is. Thats what I think made her miss and thats why I thought originally she was asking for a let. The noise was the real hinderance - though Serena psychologically obviously had trouble admitting that. The umpire needed to control the crowd, he needed to make his line-calls more convincing (and wake his line judges up) and he needed to protect Serena. He failed . And before anyone says how do you do it - look at what happened to Martina Hingis after 1999 - she hardly ever went on court without a proven crowd quietner like Jane Harvey in the chair.

F-R-E-A-K
Jun 7th, 2003, 02:54 AM
Justine was totally wrong wat she done.. becoause the same thing happened in the second set where justine served and serena had her had/raquet up!!! the umpire said first serve cos he saw it.. George is a dickhead!

Jericho
Jun 7th, 2003, 03:05 AM
Justin deserves the win!!!! No question about that coz she played better.

BUT!!! she bever earned the respect from a lot of spectators and fans. Once again she displayed her dark side. Her integrity has really been in question eversince. She does that in a desperate first win over Lindsay at AO, she strikes again today.

JUSTIN won the match, ACCEPT IT!!!
SERENA was outplayed, ACCEPT IT!!!

JUSTIN IS A CHEATER ACCEPT IT!!!!

Its all very clear!!!!

very well put...justine won fair and square, but it doesnt excuse her from her bad sportsmanship...it says a lot when the neutral fans are saying that they have lost respect for her. BTW, if serena were to do what justine did, i couldnt even imagine :o