PDA

View Full Version : Justine Fans... raise your hand if you think our favorite cheated today!!!


rhz
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:34 AM
I think she did, although she would win the match anyhow, and i want her to win so bad, that was not the way to win it. What ever happened to sportsmanship Justine.... I am really dissapointed in you!

but I'm still cheering for you to win against Kim... i forgive you this time.

per4ever
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:51 AM
she didn't :) Justine raised her hand, but Serena chose to serve anyway. Too bad for her :)

Flatstat
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:53 AM
she didn't :) Justine raised her hand, but Serena chose to serve anyway. Too bad for her :)

*Nods* in agreement :)

Knizzle
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:06 AM
she didn't :) Justine raised her hand, but Serena chose to serve anyway. Too bad for her :)

No, you are dead wrong. I have the match on tape and Serena was already reaching up to hit the serve when Justine raised her hand for Serena to stop. Serena did not ignore her.

Filip!
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:09 AM
No, you are dead wrong. I have the match on tape and Serena was already reaching up to hit the serve when Justine raised her hand for Serena to stop. Serena did not ignore her.

FRUSTRATED??

Do you think that one first serve into the net decided the match? Nope, not at all!

Serena said it herself: this thing was NO turning point! Btw: Justine did not lie, Justine said nothing to the umpire!

Justine is in the final, a lot of people are frustrated because the Williams-girls are not dominating Roland Garros, that's all!

Greenout
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:17 AM
Kniz,

Ok- Justine did raise her hand so what if Serena
lost her chance for a first serve. Isn't a lost service
point only suppose to be a blip for Serena in a set?
I know right the crowd were arseholes, true, but
why was Serena getting caught stuck in no man's
land during those Henin overheads? I didn't get
that; it threw me off. Perhaps Serena was a bit
irked by the peanut gallery; but isn't Serena suppose
to be greater than her opponent's and their desperate
adoring fans? I was watching this match with a
couple of neutrals, non-tennis fans, and they couldn't
believe Serena kept on dumping balls into the net
or making oddly weak serves. Where were all the
ace's during the match that we've come to expect
or be afraid of from Serena? During the final points,
Serena didn't even move forward or backward much
on the court.

Justine didn't cheat; she simply refuse to fade away.
After she choked her first match points, I was thinking
of leaving because it truly looked as if it was going to
be another instance of Belgians with pieces of Pomme
Frites stuck in their throats choking. Hey, what do you
know Justine got over it. It's ok to be annoyed at
the "hand" thing; but no need to call Justine a cheater.

fleemkeģ
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:32 AM
If Serena was a nice person, who gave credit to Justine gameplay maybe Justine would give her the first serve whatever happend there! I think if she was playing against friendly people that she would have given the first serve anyway.

I wouldn't give any presents to someone who could never say that I won because I played betterr :)

I do appreciate it that Serena said after this match that Justine played a good match and deserved the victory :)

saki
Jun 6th, 2003, 10:16 AM
I don't think Justine lied/cheated whatever, no. To me it looked as though when the umpire asked her something, she raised her hand which looked as though she was indicating that that was what she'd done. IMO, she looked confused rather than malicious.

In any case, if you look at this logically:

Either Serena saw Justine raise her hand or she didn't.

If she did, she shouldn't have served, so she didn't deserve another first serve.

If she didn't, then her first serve was out anyway, so she wouldn't have had another first serve.

I fail to see what Justine has to do with it.

Lisbeth
Jun 6th, 2003, 10:57 AM
Don't know, didn't see the whole match. But it's not like Serena has never missed a first serve before in her life (!) so if the whole match revolved on that then the girl has undergone a complete personality change since all the other matches she's toughed out. I think Juju's the one being vilified and much as I love Kim I think it's unfair to psych her out before one of the biggest matches of her life. I hope she's safe in a media bubble somewhere.

Dava
Jun 6th, 2003, 11:06 AM
Well look even if Justine did cheat it was not on game point, set point match point. In fact I remember it being 30-0 to Serena, I mean what had Juju got to gain, one point which would still put her behind.

treufreund
Jun 6th, 2003, 11:21 AM
NO. Serena should have stopped her serve. she screwed up and did not want to take responsibility. End of story.

The Crow
Jun 6th, 2003, 11:36 AM
*raising my hand*

I'm a big big fan of Justine but what she did right there was just plain wrong. I'm disappointed she did that.

But don't get me wrong I'm still a big fan of hers. She's only human. But if ever anyone does something like that to her, she can't complain!

SJW
Jun 6th, 2003, 11:38 AM
If Serena was a nice person, who gave credit to Justine gameplay maybe Justine would give her the first serve whatever happend there! I think if she was playing against friendly people that she would have given the first serve anyway.

I wouldn't give any presents to someone who could never say that I won because I played betterr :)

I do appreciate it that Serena said after this match that Justine played a good match and deserved the victory :)

please please please tell me youre not saying Serena doesnt compliment Justine....cos she does, and im proud of her for doing so

re cheating....if Justine can live with it, then why not? have no bitter feelings about that point

katrientje
Jun 6th, 2003, 11:41 AM
I think it might have been wrong, but I don't think it was something to make such a fuss about. I've seen other players doing things that I really didn't think were fair, but nobody makes such a big thing out of it. Every player does things like that (incl. serena)...
People act now like serena would have one the match if she got her first serve there.... Come on, she was a break up... And did anyone see the umpire asking Justine anything? I didn't for sure...

SJW
Jun 6th, 2003, 11:42 AM
*raising my hand*

I'm a big big fan of Justine but what she did right there was just plain wrong. I'm disappointed she did that.

But don't get me wrong I'm still a big fan of hers. She's only human. But if ever anyone does something like that to her, she can't complain!

LOL like saying someone was faking an injury, and then she gets an injury in one of their next matches :D i wish the player had said something about it :D

but anyway, if she didnt wanna say anything she didnt have to. it doesnt really bother me, but other things indicate to me shes not as "nice" and "likable" as i thought she was 2 years ago :o

i mean, if Serena did it, it would be drama drama drama :devil:

tenn_ace
Jun 6th, 2003, 11:43 AM
ONCE AND FOR ALL:

Once the player returning the serve indicates that she's ready, she CANNOT become UNREADY!!!!

Regardless of what Justine did, first serve was into the net. If it was ace, the point would have gone the Williams way. Even though Justine raised her hand.

for those who don't know the rules: IF THE PLAYER SHOWED THAT SHE IS READY TO RETURN (AND THAT'S THE CASE WITH JUSTINE) AND THEN SHE SHOWS SHE IS NOT READY (THE CASE WITH JUSTINE), THE POINT GOES TO THE SERVER IF SHE SERVES.

Experimentee
Jun 6th, 2003, 11:43 AM
NO. Serena should have stopped her serve. she screwed up and did not want to take responsibility. End of story.

She was already in the middle of her service motion and she thought she'd get another serve anyway, so no reason to stop her serve. I think the fact that she saw Justines hand up caused her to not concentrate on her serve and hit it out. It wasnt a crucial point but the incident broke her concentration.
I think Justine might have won anyway, but this casts a bit of doubt onto the way in which she won it.

The Crow
Jun 6th, 2003, 11:55 AM
ONCE AND FOR ALL:

Once the player returning the serve indicates that she's ready, she CANNOT become UNREADY!!!!

Regardless of what Justine did, first serve was into the net. If it was ace, the point would have gone the Williams way. Even though Justine raised her hand.

for those who don't know the rules: IF THE PLAYER SHOWED THAT SHE IS READY TO RETURN (AND THAT'S THE CASE WITH JUSTINE) AND THEN SHE SHOWS SHE IS NOT READY (THE CASE WITH JUSTINE), THE POINT GOES TO THE SERVER IF SHE SERVES.

Are you sure about this? When Serena said to the umpire that Justine raised her hand, the umpire said he hadn't seen it (which indicates to me that if he would have seen it that he would have given her another first serve).

The Crow
Jun 6th, 2003, 11:56 AM
i mean, if Serena did it, it would be drama drama drama :devil:

Well it is drama drama drama now too, only the roles are reversed ;)

switz
Jun 6th, 2003, 01:41 PM
i was there. i don't know if you would call it a turning point or anything, but i have to say that justine knew what see was doing. i felt it was pretty bad that the crowd didn't jump on her for it either, considering that serena was being abused just for checking marks every now and then. in my opinion serena was completely justified in not giving justine a sportsman-like handshake (although she should have been the bigger person) because justine prioritised winning over doing the right thing. you can try and make excuses for her, but the fact is that if she can accuse davenport of faking an injury and hence being unsporting then in my opinion you can't justify her doing what she did.

i am not a williams fan, and i was kind of going for justine in the match, but that crowd was disgraceful. stuff all this supporting the underdog rubbish. yeah sure that might apply during the match, but the way the crowd the booed her when she walked off the court made me feel so sorry for serena, and i was giving the people near me who booed her a piece of my mind.

Flatstat
Jun 6th, 2003, 01:45 PM
She was already in the middle of her service motion and she thought she'd get another serve anyway

The First thing I was taught in tennis is never presume anything. She is a professional and should know better.

tenn_ace
Jun 6th, 2003, 01:52 PM
Are you sure about this? When Serena said to the umpire that Justine raised her hand, the umpire said he hadn't seen it (which indicates to me that if he would have seen it that he would have given her another first serve).

yes I am. Unless umpire asks a server to hold, the returner cannot become unready. Serena knew that and that's why she still served. She knew that if the serve was good and Justine didn't return, Serena would have won a point. It seems like Serena was trying to cheat. And that's why she hasn't insisted more. She knew the rule.

tenn_ace
Jun 6th, 2003, 01:53 PM
why umpire said it is because he has to see Justine raising hand himself to give Serena two serves to be sure when exactly she raised her hand. Since he didn't see it, he goes with the rule that the server has an advantage. Again, if Serena's serve was good and Jutine didn't make an attempt to return, Serena would have won a point.

POSTERS HERE JUST DON'T KNOW THE RULES!

the cat
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:17 PM
Well said Knizzle! No one can refute what you said. Henin got away with it. There is supposed to be a level of sportmanship in tennis and golf that comes into play. Henin clearly had her hand up after Serena started her service motion. She should have told the chair umpire that she had her hand up and Serena should have had another first serve. That was the right thing to do. And I think Kim Clijsters would have told the chair unpire to play 2 because she had her hand up.

The sad thing is Williams had every right to be upset about that.

Didn't Davenport have problems with Henin in Oz? We're going to have to keep an eye on Justine. I don't think was anything intentional. But her not admitting she put her hand up while serena was serving cause Serena to rightfully complain which in turn cause the snippy French crowd who think they invented sports( :rolleyes: ) to turn on Serena. That was unwarranted.

rhz, a fan of Justine's said it best.

tenn_ace
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:22 PM
Well said Knizzle! No one can refute what you said. Henin got away with it. There is supposed to be a level of sportmanship in tennis and golf that comes into play. Henin clearly had her hand up after Serena started her service motion. She should have told the chair umpire that she had her hand up and Serena should have had another first serve. That was the right thing to do. And I think Kim Clijsters would have told the chair unpire to play 2 because she had her hand up.

The sad thing is Williams had every right to be upset about that.

Didn't Davenport have problems with Henin in Oz? We're going to have to keep an eye on Justine. I don't think was anything intentional. But her not admitting she put her hand up while serena was serving cause Serena to rightfully complain which in turn cause the snippy French crowd who think they invented sports( :rolleyes: ) to turn on Serena. That was unwarranted.

rhz, a fan of Justine's said it best.

have you read what I posted?????

and how did you know Henin didn't say that??? :rolleyes:

Bella
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:26 PM
Doesn't look good for Justine. But, did she think Serena blew off her hand or does she think Serena didn't see it and should live with her serve? I haven't seen her comments, yet. She will be asked.

Serena hasn't said she saw it beforehand and that she truncated her serve motion because of it. It didn't look to me like she saw it. But, if she did see it and pulled her serve, then she got a raw deal.

mishar
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:30 PM
Tenn Ace - you're wrong about this. It's quite clear that if the umpire had seen Justine holding up her hand, he would have awarded her another first serve. Serena had a right to another first serve. It would have been sportsmanlike of Justine to give her another first serve. I think that's what most tennis players would do in that situation.
Having said that, I don't think it's such a big deal, it's a minor offense against etiquette, if at all, and I'm still a fan of Justine. (though not the crowd)

tenn_ace
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:37 PM
Tenn Ace - you're wrong about this. It's quite clear that if the umpire had seen Justine holding up her hand, he would have awarded her another first serve. Serena had a right to another first serve. It would have been sportsmanlike of Justine to give her another first serve. I think that's what most tennis players would do in that situation.
Having said that, I don't think it's such a big deal, it's a minor offense against etiquette, if at all, and I'm still a fan of Justine. (though not the crowd)

if the umpire saw it himself, but he didn't, and he didn't ask Serena to hold, which means she should play the point because she (and umpire) saw Justine to be ready. Again: A RETURNER CANNOT BECOME UNREADY UNLESS UMPIRE CALLS FOR IT. Serena knew the rule, she served and she would have had the point if her serve was good. And then when she hit the net she decided to ask for another first serve. That is why she hasn't insisted more than she did.

Gallofa
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:38 PM
As far as I can tell, there are two kinds of players. The ones that do not need rules or umpires or line judges, because they call the shots in the court for themselves, never taking a point that is not theirs. And the ones that play with the rules, that is, that keep a point even if they know it was out.

I admire the first group, the righteous type, but I also respect the second, the ruthless kind. Tennis is a game. The umpire and line judges also play their parts, you can learn to play them to your best advantage. From what I have seen of Serena and Justine, they are alike when it comes to this, they both are ruthless and do not give anything to their opponents. Why should they? this is not a friendly encounter, they are playing for money and within the rules.

the cat
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:40 PM
tenn_ace, of course I read what you wrote. Justine made a mistake. Admit and we'll move on. She is human. She made a mistake that turned the crowd against Serena for complaining about something she had every right to question.

The Chair Umpire should have asked Henin if she put her hand up to stop Serena's serve. That would have solved everything.


Bella and Mishar made sound and fair points, too.

tenn_ace
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:44 PM
there is nothing to admit...

to me (and I DO know something about rules) it was Serena who was trying to catch a break in that situation asking for another 1st serve.

Serena lost, you should move on.

malaye
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:55 PM
I am very confused about this hand business : I followed the 3rd set on French TV, and even the commentators were confused ! They heard the chair umpire say he did not see the hand up. The camera did not show the chair umpire talking to Justine, or maybe I missed it completely (?). It only showed Serena talking to the umpire. But the commentators said something about Serena ready to play a 2nd serve while Justine was obviously expecting a 1st serve. !!!???

I want it to be known that even as a Justine's fan, I was very disappointed and uncomfortable with the attitude of the crowd (although it was much worse at Indian Wells, and it did not prevent her from winning the match then). But you NEVER, EVER cheer for a bad 1st serve or a mistake.

I also wanted to say that I saw the part where Justine said that Serena was a great champion who has had her share of wins and that she could now leave a few crumbs for the others. It was a jest ! There was no arrogance at all in that statement. And she was also full of praise for Serena. Then, when asked about the crowd, she said "they supported me right from the beginning, it helped me a lot, but they also went overboard at times" (if you quote someone, you should do it properly !)

And finally, I believe the reason why Serena was booed when she left the court was because of the very "cold" (and that's an understatement) handshake at the end of the match.

Anyway, I believe Justine deserved this win, and I wish her well in her next match !

katrientje
Jun 6th, 2003, 03:01 PM
I am very confused about this hand business : I followed the 3rd set on French TV, and even the commentators were confused ! They heard the chair umpire say he did not see the hand up. The camera did not show the chair umpire talking to Justine, or maybe I missed it completely (?). It only showed Serena talking to the umpire. But the commentators said something about Serena ready to play a 2nd serve while Justine was obviously expecting a 1st serve. !!!???

I want it to be known that even as a Justine's fan, I was very disappointed and uncomfortable with the attitude of the crowd (although it was much worse at Indian Wells, and it did not prevent her from winning the match then). But you NEVER, EVER cheer for a bad 1st serve or a mistake.

I also wanted to say that I saw the part where Justine said that Serena was a great champion who has had her share of wins and that she could now leave a few crumbs for the others. It was a jest ! There was no arrogance at all in that statement. And she was also full of praise for Serena. Then, when asked about the crowd, she said "they supported me right from the beginning, it helped me a lot, but they also went overboard at times" (if you quote someone, you should do it properly !)

And finally, I believe the reason why Serena was booed when she left the court was because of the very "cold" (and that's an understatement) handshake at the end of the match.

Anyway, I believe Justine deserved this win, and I wish her well in her next match !

I completely agree. good post!

jrm
Jun 6th, 2003, 03:08 PM
Can you really sum up the whole match according to one scene?

the cat
Jun 6th, 2003, 03:08 PM
tenn_ace, Serena asked for another first serve becasue getting another first serve is the procedure in that situation. For the crowd to turn on her for that was appalling! :mad: And Serena was right about the other calls she questioned, too.

She still could have won. But she was unnerved and that cost her dearly.

WtaTour4Ever
Jun 6th, 2003, 03:12 PM
ty malaye :-)

SJW
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:18 PM
Well it is drama drama drama now too, only the roles are reversed ;)

this is big....but cmon u seem like an ultimately fair person imagine if it was Serena, right?

ive got a few things to add

1) Serena may be cocky, arrogant *add ur own word* or whatever to some people but on court she is really fair. if u query a mark she will check it for you and if its in she will tell the umpire its in

2) if u think Henin deserved a kiss and a pat on the back after the match, than that is more insulting to me than calling Serena a name. what did she do to deserve anything?

a certain famous book (ill let u see if you can figure it out ;)) said u dont really ever understand someone till you put on their shoes, walk around in their skin. imagine if u were in that position...how would you feel? i know i wouldnt feel too good....but maybe u Henin fans are superhuman :)

anyways....ill repeat what i said before.....the lack of acknowledging she put her hand up DOES NOT bother me....and neither does the result (to a certain extent. thats life, and im just happy i had the opportunity to keep smiling through 8 previous grand slam weeks. the ending of a good thing always has to come)

but to diss Serena for not giving her a warm handshake,to say her tears were fake etc is 1)classless 2)ignorant and 3) mean :p

if this (these reactions) is what goes down every time Justine is close to winning a slam, then im afraid i will no longer support her in slams ;)

Nemesis
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:19 PM
I do not think she cheated. I'm just a tad bit diappointed that she didn't say that Serena was right. It' not that Justine said that she shouldn't have a 1st serve. Justine should've stepped up and face the truth.

However, I think the outcome would've been the same. Justine would've still won the match.

But what if Serena's 2nd serve wouldn't have been in ... And it would've counted as a double fault. I don't know what I've done then. My love for Justine would've lessened a tiny bit then.

But now ... I'm still as big a Justine-fan as I was before that point!!! ;)

mishar
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:32 PM
I agree with Gallofa that tennis is a competition, and I don't hold it against someone for competing a bit ruthlessly (though I still think good sportsmanship is important.)
I don't think Justine's silence was a major deal. However, Serena was well within her rights to ask for another first serve and the crowd was way out of line.
It was rude of Serena to be brusque at the net, but that did not affect the outcome of the match.

tenn_ace
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:34 PM
tenn_ace, Serena asked for another first serve becasue getting another first serve is the procedure in that situation. For the crowd to turn on her for that was appalling! :mad: And Serena was right about the other calls she questioned, too.

She still could have won. But she was unnerved and that cost her dearly.


procedure??? :rolleyes: you really should stop talking about the stuff you know little about...

The Crow
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:38 PM
this is big....but cmon u seem like an ultimately fair person imagine if it was Serena, right?

ive got a few things to add

1) Serena may be cocky, arrogant *add ur own word* or whatever to some people but on court she is really fair. if u query a mark she will check it for you and if its in she will tell the umpire its in

2) if u think Henin deserved a kiss and a pat on the back after the match, than that is more insulting to me than calling Serena a name. what did she do to deserve anything?

a certain famous book (ill let u see if you can figure it out ;)) said u dont really ever understand someone till you put on their shoes, walk around in their skin. imagine if u were in that position...how would you feel? i know i wouldnt feel too good....but maybe u Henin fans are superhuman :)

anyways....ill repeat what i said before.....the lack of acknowledging she put her hand up DOES NOT bother me....and neither does the result (to a certain extent. thats life, and im just happy i had the opportunity to keep smiling through 8 previous grand slam weeks. the ending of a good thing always has to come)

but to diss Serena for not giving her a warm handshake,to say her tears were fake etc is 1)classless 2)ignorant and 3) mean :p

if this (these reactions) is what goes down every time Justine is close to winning a slam, then im afraid i will no longer support her in slams ;)

Don't know how my one sentence triggered this post :p, but what I meant was: just assume for a minute, Serena would have done what Justine would have done, than you would get the same drama in here, but then most of the Justine fans would be all over Serena, saying it's bad sportsmanship, she's a cheat, blablabla and most of the Williams fans would say, it's part of the game, she didn't do anything wrong, blablabla ;)

And I don't think Justine has dissed Serena for not giving her a warm handshake or she hasn't said her tears were fake right?

jenglisbe
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:42 PM
katrientje - That serve could have been very important. Serena was up 30-0 at 4-2 when that incident happened. Had Serena gotten to redo her 1st serve and hit a good one, it could have been 40-0 and Serena likely would have then been up 5-2. Instead, Serena had to hit a 2nd serve, it was then 30-15, and the crowd was against her heavily. Big difference.

treufund - every tried to stop serving in the middle of your motion? Very difficult; plus, I think Serena was trying to stop...look at the serve again. It wasn't even close.

Here are the facts:
1. Serena started to serve, and Justine put her hand up to indicate she was not ready
2. Serena's serve went out, but she tried to make sure she got a 1st serve because of Justine stopping play
3. The umpire said he didn't see Justine stop plau
4. Justine knew what was going on, but instead of backing up what Serena said, Justine kept quiet

Now, had Serena does this same thing to Justine, most of you know you would have jumped all over Serena for it and said she was cheating, mean, etc.

I'm not even a Serena fan, but I think she got a raw deal there, and I think many Justine fans (or is it Serena haters?) are being facitious here.

Mrs. Peel
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:42 PM
there is nothing to admit...

to me (and I DO know something about rules) it was Serena who was trying to catch a break in that situation asking for another 1st serve.

Serena lost, you should move on.


You are so in denial...all these Justine fans telling you that she was wrong and you keep bringing up Serena losing...they don't care about that! They wanted Justine to win but have the character to recognize that she lacked it at that time during the match.

tenn_ace
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:47 PM
You are so in denial...all these Justine fans telling you that she was wrong and you keep bringing up Serena losing...they don't care about that! They wanted Justine to win but have the character to recognize that she lacked it at that time during the match.

was I talking to you? :rolleyes: :p

tenn_ace
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:47 PM
and btw, I don't care whether they are Justine's fans or Serena's fans... if they don't know the rules the should stop posting garbage here

SJW
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:48 PM
Don't know how my one sentence triggered this post :p, but what I meant was: just assume for a minute, Serena would have done what Justine would have done, than you would get the same drama in here, but then most of the Justine fans would be all over Serena, saying it's bad sportsmanship, she's a cheat, blablabla and most of the Williams fans would say, it's part of the game, she didn't do anything wrong, blablabla ;)

And I don't think Justine has dissed Serena for not giving her a warm handshake or she hasn't said her tears were fake right?

LOL!! it didnt :p it was in reference to other posts :p typical a Justine fan thinks so much of themself that i would dedicate a mini essay to them :rolleyes: LOL :D

i get what ur saying....but i got a few things to add (again ;))

1. its just Williams fans ;) if it was on the other foot, it would be everyone who doesnt like a williams :D
2. i dont believe my baby WOULDNT let Justine retake the serve. she always maintains a high level of fairness ON court
3. no SHE hasnt dissed Serena, but Justine fans have ;) they are so greedy :p:D
4. its just a shame cos ppl dissing Serena is so hurtful, i wouldnt want anyone else to experience it....and Justine seems to have ensured that her fans wil have to deal w/ this incident for a long time now....

Venus Forever
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:49 PM
OMG, this is so simple to resolve, and you are making it into this big thing.

Justine held her hand up in the middle of Serena's service motion. Serena didn't see this. The ball hit the net. Serena realizes Justine's hand is up. This, AUTOMATICALLY, qualifies Serena for a first serve, if Serena saw the hand or not. It doesn't matter, Justine was NOT READY, which qualifies to re-play the point.

The fact that the umpire didn't see the hand changes it. If the ball had gone over and out, he would have seen Justine's hand up, and it would have been a first serve. If it went over and in, he would have seen the hand, and it still would be a first serve over again, no ace, no nothing.

Those are the rules, plain and simple.

Tenn_ace, you keep mentioning well, you can't become ready, then un-ready. Well, how come, in several matches, the returner seems ready, the server starts to serve, then the returner puts their hand up, and the server serves the ball, they STILL RE-PLAY the point?? Your thinking makes no sense.

And, the Williams fans are not arguing that this changed the match. It may have, it may not have. The point is calling out the poor sportsmanship on Justine. She should have admitted to the umpire what she did, but she didn't.

Oh, and everything above is right, even Mary Carillo stated it. They showed Justine' hand go up on the re-play and Carillo screams out: "Serena's right for the third time!!"

It's really quite simple, according to the rules, Serena SHOULD have gotten another serve due to the returner not being ready.

jenglisbe
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:50 PM
Are some of you sure about the "rule?" I have seen instances where a player holds up a hand in the middle of a serve (because a ball boy is moving, the crowd is settling,w hatever) and then it's treated as a let.

I have never seen a player not get to re-serve like happened to Serena (granted, it was because the umpire didn't see it and because Justine wouldn't say she held her hand up). My point is that I have seen players get a 1st serve again when someone stopped play mid-serve.

Mrs. Peel
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:52 PM
was I talking to you? :rolleyes: :p


This is a message board remember?

Diya
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:11 PM
NO Justine DIDN'T CHEAT ! Besides she won the match FAIR AND SQUARE so i dunno why everyone is making a mountain of a mole hill :rolleyes: Oh well yes , its because A Williams failed to EVEN make the finals of A GS.

heninrules
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:29 PM
To be honest i don't think what she did could be considered as cheating. its unsportman like but not cheating. also she might not have told the umpire because of the tension she was feeling at the time and she couldn't here herself think under the noise of the crowd. But i think this issue is being blown way out of proportion, in fact i didn't even notice until i came on this board.

if justine behaviour on that point was that controversial the media would have been more involved. Especially in Britain where eurosport haven't said anything about it and the newspapers hasn't focused on it at all. even serena didn't think it changed the match at all. if serena did the exact same thing i would have just ignored it.

mishar
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:59 PM
Mary Joe Fernandez just said it was "sketchy sportsmanship" and Justine should have given Serena 2 serves. Mary Joe is not exactly a fanatical Williams fan

Tratree
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:22 PM
Mary Joe also said Serena handled her press conference with "class" and I don't find it very classy to accuse someone of "lying and fabricating".

I should also add that if Justined lied outright, this is obviously a different situation, but from what I've heard and seen several times on the tape, the umpire didn't even ask her.

Venus Forever
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:52 PM
The umpire asked her something, because they did show Justine look up in that direction and she just kinda put her hands up like "I don't know," and she looked like she mumbled something.

Only Serena, Justine, and the chair umpire knows what happened.

baleineau
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:54 PM
Serena should have been awarded another serve. If the umpire had seen Justine's hand, he'd have said "wait please", and any serve that was in the process of being hit, would have been void, with a first serve to follow again.

that's why he checked with Justine, to see whether she had indeed raised her hand. Justine went along with the lie - that she hadn't - when an honest reponse would have been to accept that it was the fairest thing to allow Serena to serve a first serve again.

it sounds like a heat of the moment thing, but it came at a big moment for Serena IIRC.

I'm disappointed with Justine. Really. She makes such a song and dance about other player's performance, especially about what she sees as bad sportsmanship and unfair tactics, and then does it herself in the SF of a Major at a crucial point. I just hope she remembers this and doesn't start accusing other players of faking things and other types of gamesmanship in the future, because she's done it herself and profited.

She has also complained about crowds before, so I'm surprised with her post-match remarks about the crowd and how wonderful it was to get that support. She could have mentioned that it was tough on Serena and how she felt the crowd were unfair to boo Serena - but she chose not to.

I'll definitely be cheering for Kim on Saturday.

Justine has a lot of time left to prove me wrong, but in the last six-eight months we've had the Davenport issue at Zurich, the Davenport issue at the Aus Open, and now another situation in which I have to question her "Everyone else is bad, I'm pure White" attitude.

Sure, use gamesmanship, but learn to live and die by that sword Justine.

switz
Jun 7th, 2003, 03:32 AM
this thread is not about the rules or who won, it is about sportsmanship. justine did break the rules mind you. IMO justine has to be careful because people are inevitably going to start questioning her character.

Fingon
Jun 7th, 2003, 03:36 AM
No, you are dead wrong. I have the match on tape and Serena was already reaching up to hit the serve when Justine raised her hand for Serena to stop. Serena did not ignore her.

maybe he is wrong, but not as wrong as you were when you said Justine couldn't beat Serena in a GS :p

Fingon
Jun 7th, 2003, 03:38 AM
Mary Joe also said Serena handled her press conference with "class" and I don't find it very classy to accuse someone of "lying and fabricating".

I should also add that if Justined lied outright, this is obviously a different situation, but from what I've heard and seen several times on the tape, the umpire didn't even ask her.

well Mary Joe was the one who said Justine would drop off the top 5.

I guess her opinion isn't to be taken too seriously is it?

F-R-E-A-K
Jun 7th, 2003, 04:27 AM
Well Serena said that that part of the match had nothing to do witht he finished outcome.. she said she was strong enough to forget about the hadn incedent but not the crowd! Anyhow Serena is a Strong girl and shes a fighter!

and next time she play Justine shes going to kick her ass and say:

"After all you put me through
You'd think I'd dispise you
But in the end I wanna thank you
'cause you made me that much stronger"


I dont think Justine literally cheated BUT she did abuse the power factor on court and clearly should have admitted to what happened. Justine did the same thing to serena in the second set and serena admitted to it!?

GO RENA!

Jericho
Jun 7th, 2003, 04:59 AM
Its obvious who is most likely right especially if non-fans, commentators, and even some of justine's fans agree...if serena would've won there would be just as many responses to justine's actions.