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View Full Version : Telling words from a young black leading tennis player.


"Topaz"
Jun 5th, 2003, 10:41 PM
Serena:
"It was just a tough crowd out there...
"Very tough. Story of my life...
"It's a little difficult. All my life I had to fight. So it's just another fight. It's like this every time going into a tournament."

Let's repeat the last thought: "It's like this every time going into a tournament."

Now let's pause and think ... and think ... soberly. She certainly pointed to today's crowd at RG-03, but with candor she also let us know this has been the case all her life. All her young life.

Why does it have to be so hard to be black? Why, oh why can't the world accept leadership, excellence of any kind, from a black person? ... "Story of my life", said the young girl; little she knows it's the story of millions. Millions sharing the same planet with the rest. Millions aspiring to live and embellish what we call humanity. Millions just willing to assert their stakes in that grand march called history.

TP.

Hendouble
Jun 5th, 2003, 10:49 PM
Shall I get your medication, or do you want me to call the nurse?

"Topaz"
Jun 5th, 2003, 10:52 PM
No, Hendouble, just pause and think. Can you do that? At least try.

Hendouble
Jun 5th, 2003, 10:54 PM
In that case I'll ask you to stop and think, and consider whether you should be posting this kind of thing on a tennis message board. Wrong time, wrong place.

Dava
Jun 5th, 2003, 10:58 PM
How do you explain the popularity of people like Denise Lewis, Michael Jorden, Merlene Ottey and Colin Jackson, if people dont like and except these great athletes. They show excellence and are black.

smally
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:15 PM
Difference, they're all in a sport dominated by fellow blacks.

DunkMachine
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:17 PM
Difference, they're all in a sport dominated by fellow blacks.

Bingo and jackpot

Rocketta
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:20 PM
Difference, they're all in a sport dominated by fellow blacks.

and trust me the first blacks that started it all took much criticism and abuse from the crowd. Just read up on people like Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Jackie Robinson and see if the crowds were loving them at the time.

King Lindsay
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:22 PM
and trust me the first blacks that started it all took much criticism and abuse from the crowd. Just read up on people like Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Jackie Robinson and see if the crowds were loving them at the time.

jackie Robinson was different. That was in 1947, a much different time and place.... I'd like to think that tennis and its fans can handle two black girls at the top of the sport, given that this is over 50 years later.

Astro Jetson
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:23 PM
Was Martina Hingis black? Did you forget how tough she had it with the crowd sometimes?

Rocketta
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:26 PM
Was Martina Hingis black? Did you forget how tough she had it with the crowd sometimes?

I guess you missed the part about "all my life"? This thread is not about one incident this is about many, several incidents that Williams fans have been speaking of but always have to hear about underdog crap? It had nothing to do with underdog anything. If it did why weren't they hostile to Serena when Justine was winning? It was about trying to intimidate and throw Serena off her game. That's it nothing altruistic about it. It also doesn't have anything to do with Martina Hingis considering she was the one acting up first and the crowd responded to her. That can not be said in this case. Serena did nothing wrong or disrespectful.

DunkMachine
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:27 PM
Some folks on this board act like racism doesn't exists or isn't public. But rasicm is still out there but in a more covert and conceiled form.

o0O0o
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:28 PM
It must be tough living in a world where everything you do is for good and out of love and everything we do is evil and wrong.

Rocketta
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:28 PM
It must be tough living in a world where everything you do is for good and out of love and everything we do is evil and wrong.

it is, what's your point?

Martian Willow
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:29 PM
I think Serenas achievements are impressive enough without trying to turn her into a victim. It's tough to reach the top in tennis, whether you're from Compton, Kosice, or Novi Sad.

DunkMachine
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:30 PM
It must be tough living in a world where everything you do is for good and out of love and everything we do is evil and wrong.

The stress is on the WE part.

Dava
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:30 PM
Well are you not pleased that athletes can now be popular in sports like Athletics and Basketball. That someone like Denise Lewis is just as popular in her home country as Paula Radcliffe.

Also if Chanda Rubin had beaten Justine the crowd would have been pulling for her. Maybe not as much, but thats because Justine is from the French speaking part of Belguim.

per4ever
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:31 PM
Like Tiger Woods is in a sport dominated by blacks :rolleyes:

of course racism is still out there, and it probably always will. But reading all this crap on the board..I realize that some black posters are racists themselves.

o0O0o
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:31 PM
it is, what's your point?

Wow, thankyou for proving my point. Blacks too often have this attitude and you just admitted thinking everything white people do is evil and wrong and that just blows my mind. I'm hoping you read my statement wrong and incorrectly replied.

Astro Jetson
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:33 PM
Please people. Look at Serena's interview after match against Amélie and then you see the arrogant Serena who is acting tough like she always has done. That's why many people (which I don't belong to!) root against her. Not because she is black. Chanda Rubin for instance is black and always a crowd favourite.

Rocketta
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:34 PM
Well are you not pleased that athletes can now be popular in sports like Athletics and Basketball. That someone like Denise Lewis is just as popular in her home country as Paula Radcliffe.

Also if Chanda Rubin had beaten Justine the crowd would have been pulling for her. Maybe not as much, but thats because Justine is from the French speaking part of Belguim.

The question is would they have booed Justine? Would they have applauded double faults? Why is it so hard for people to see the difference between rooting for someone and cheering "against" someone. No one cares if everyone in the crowd was rooting for Justine and applauding her good play its quite different when a crowd actively tries to participate in a match and force an outcome by intimadating tactics. If it was basketball fine because that is the nature of the game and you get just as many chances of being on the good side of cheering as you do the bad but that is not the case in tennis. It is bad form and its just ignorant to do.

Rocketta
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:36 PM
Wow, thankyou for proving my point. Blacks too often have this attitude and you just admitted thinking everything white people do is evil and wrong and that just blows my mind. I'm hoping you read my statement wrong and incorrectly replied.

uh huh I was speaking of it being tough being in a world with people like "you". If they are included in the "we" then yes cause I surely think you are evil incarnate. :)

Dava
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:36 PM
The question is would they have booed Justine? Would they have applauded double faults? Why is it so hard for people to see the difference between rooting for someone and cheering "against" someone. No one cares if everyone in the crowd was rooting for Justine and applauding her good play its quite different when a crowd actively tries to participate in a match and force an outcome by intimadating tactics. If it was basketball fine because that is the nature of the game and you get just as many chances of being on the good side of cheering as you do the bad but that is not the case in tennis. It is bad form and its just ignorant to do.

People were actually clapping when Justine was missing her first serves to you know. Okay it was not the whole stadium but it was enough for commentators to comment on it.

Rocketta
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:40 PM
People were actually clapping when Justine was missing her first serves to you know. Okay it was not the whole stadium but it was enough for commentators to comment on it.


yes they were and it was clearly after people had done it to Serena several times. Am I lying?

Dava
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:41 PM
No, Im just saying! And anyway it would happen AFTER Serena had served as she was serving first.

Rocketta
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:41 PM
Like Tiger Woods is in a sport dominated by blacks :rolleyes:

of course racism is still out there, and it probably always will. But reading all this crap on the board..I realize that some black posters are racists themselves.


clearly you missed when they CHANGED the entire Augusta Golf course in hopes of preventing more victories or how about the "fried chicken" comment his fellow golfer made about him at some celebratory dinner? Yeah Tiger was accepted with open arms.

Bezz
Jun 5th, 2003, 11:58 PM
I dont think the crowd today acted in any other way that we havernt seen before. This is a french crowd-- they are known for being complete wankers and they showed it today. The french players that dont do well here are booed off court, if you question calls like an 18/19 year old martina Hingis did , who was jeered and whistled at (also the following year), and today serena got a taste of it. It isnt fair and you cant play your own game when the crowd are so against you, i didnt want serena to win today (just so i could see a GS final without her in it), but when i saw how upset she got in her press conference i dont think she deserved the reaction she got, and neither did Martina Hingis who was crying on court. I am making the comparison with Martina Hingis becuase it was very simliar and she got booed even more so than serena, so i dont think it was racial, i just think its the sad french way. There is nothing wrong with being supportive of justine but when the clap first serves that miss and errors, thats just plain nasty.

The french crowd suck!!!

lizchris
Jun 6th, 2003, 01:57 AM
Please people. Look at Serena's interview after match against Amélie and then you see the arrogant Serena who is acting tough like she always has done. That's why many people (which I don't belong to!) root against her. Not because she is black. Chanda Rubin for instance is black and always a crowd favourite.

Chanda was never a threat to the sport due to her many injuries. Venus and Serena were alweays seen as a threat to the sport since they were little girs becasue most tennis people knew they would be Grand Slam winners because they were great players in the girls' division.

F-R-E-A-K
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:00 AM
okay then

Rtael
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:03 AM
Just shut the fuck up, please. This is pure ignorance. Racism may be well alive, but it has nothing to do with why Serena was booed. Honestly France has a history of being more open and accepting of blacks long before the US, which is why a lot of black left for Europe from the US during the early-mid 1900's. Honestly get a life....if you go through life always trying to use the race card, people are gonna see you for what you are, a fucking whiner and a liar trying to bend the truth to make it work for you.

Gonzo Hates Me!
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:13 AM
TP, Rocketta, some people will NEVER understand. Some people can't fathom! They're soooo lucky. Lucky to get to walk through their lives, and not constantly feel paranoid at some point or other, just because you're black.

And I'm black, and I am so lucky because I have never had a really hard time you know, but at certain things--I do have to go, is it because I am black?!

"Topaz"
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:25 AM
o0O0o and per4ever, this is part of the very world we're living in. You may not like to hear or think about it; take solace, you're not alone. Scores of people prefer to live in denial. But Serena can't; she's in the limelite and her star is very bright. Often whatever people keep personally in denial comes out spontaneously when group dynamics takes over. When she says "story of my life", these are very telling words. It causes me great discomfort when people fail to understand her or fake not to.

PS. Rtael, your arrogance seems to have gotten the better of you. You need to learn more about the relationship between France and Sub-Saharan Africa prior to, and after, 1960.

Rocketta
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:19 AM
TP, Rocketta, some people will NEVER understand. Some people can't fathom! They're soooo lucky. Lucky to get to walk through their lives, and not constantly feel paranoid at some point or other, just because you're black.

And I'm black, and I am so lucky because I have never had a really hard time you know, but at certain things--I do have to go, is it because I am black?!

I hear ya, Mrs_Guga!! I hear ya. :)

kell
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:23 AM
I think that in this day and age all anyone really cares about race (or maybe I'm just incredibly naive). The crowds don't boo Serena coz she's black, but because some people take issue with her personality.(btw...I'm not one of them...sometimes I think she's arrogant, but that's just her way of staying competitive) If you're going to present a more flamboyant side of yourself to the media, then you've gotta expect a backlash and deal with it.

Cariaoke
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:37 AM
wow, what a great thread! :)

yeah, it's kinda easy to pretend you don't see when you're not made to see everyday. Like, when, I notice in a restaurant they have all the black people (fyi, not all black people know each other, I know SHOCKING!) sitting next to each other while all the whites are on the other side of the restaurant... again... obvious question comes to mind...

Or when I'm told common sense things... for instance "all files are sorted in alphabetical order starting with A, B, C and so forth... understand?"... you can't help but attribute that to the amount of melanin in your skin. it must be soooo nice to know that you aren't pre-judged as ignorant, a robber, a murderer, having zillions of kids with different daddies and whatever other stereotype that's attributed to blacks in society. it must be sooo nice to be able to drive a nice car late at night in an affluent neighborhood without being stopped by the cops and asked 'so how can you afford this car?' Yeah, it must be really really nice to not have to worry about such things and deny they occur because you live in your own little perfect and I'm sure extremely white little worlds. Well, you can turn off your tvs, ignore the news, do that knee-jerk snatch-purse when you see a black person reaction then when you're around your one black friend, be so reassured that you're not racist and you're not prejudiced because you have that one black friend. Feel good knowing that. But remember, you can't tell a person that's been through discrimination how to feel. You have no right. You are entitled to deny racism all you like but don't you dare preach to those that have been through it.

Freewoman33
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:44 AM
Rocketta, why bother?

hollywood7172
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:44 AM
oh who CARES about serena-bigass-williams or justine-bonyass-henin-hardenne? i'm still PISSED my two faves went out in the 4th round, goddamit! :mad: :fiery:

kell
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:45 AM
wow, what a great thread! :)

yeah, it's kinda easy to pretend you don't see when you're not made to see everyday. Like, when, I notice in a restaurant they have all the black people (fyi, not all black people know each other, I know SHOCKING!) sitting next to each other while all the whites are on the other side of the restaurant... again... obvious question comes to mind...

Or when I'm told common sense things... for instance "all files are sorted in alphabetical order starting with A, B, C and so forth... understand?"... you can't help but attribute that to the amount of melanin in your skin. it must be soooo nice to know that you aren't pre-judged as ignorant, a robber, a murderer, having zillions of kids with different daddies and whatever other stereotype that's attributed to blacks in society. it must be sooo nice to be able to drive a nice car late at night in an affluent neighborhood without being stopped by the cops and asked 'so how can you afford this car?' Yeah, it must be really really nice to not have to worry about such things and deny they occur because you live in your own little perfect and I'm sure extremely white little worlds. Well, you can turn off your tvs, ignore the news, do that knee-jerk snatch-purse when you see a black person reaction then when you're around your one black friend, be so reassured that you're not racist and you're not prejudiced because you have that one black friend. Feel good knowing that. But remember, you can't tell a person that's been through discrimination how to feel. You have no right. You are entitled to deny racism all you like but don't you dare preach to those that have been through it.

I really do feel for you. Please don't be mad at me. It's just many of my good friends are from different races (I went to a private school where most of the students were sent over from different countries). This sounds like a really weird thing to say, coz most have friends from different races, but I don't see them like that. I see them all as people and I find it hard to believe that anyone treats them like they're not, coz I've never seen it happen.

I have never had a "snatch-purse" reaction, so please don't make out that it's natural for all whites to do it. I know I am not a racist and I object to anyone who thinks that all whites are, but most of all I feel sorry for the people who think whites are racist coz they must've been through terrible things to feel that way.

Rocketta
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:49 AM
Rocketta, why bother?

hmm, you know when I hit 30 I said I would speak my mind and if people didn't like it they could kiss my black @ss. That was everyone black, white or green. So when I feel like speaking about this issue I do but its for me and not to change anyone's mind. I just like to put it out there from my point of view. You never know who reads and never posts.

Rocketta
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:52 AM
kell, nobody said all "whites" are racist? If you are not, great. I know from my own experiences though when I was hanging out with some of my white friends when I was in college and we went in the mall and the people were following me around like a hawk , my friends were clueless so to them I hadn't experienced anything. But I had they were just oblivious to it.

kell
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:52 AM
Looking back at my earlier post, I see that my first sentence was really stuffed up. What I should've written was "nobody should care about race". Yes, there is a noisy racist minority, but they are not representative of whites in general, so please don't box us all together.

kell
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:55 AM
kell, nobody said all "whites" are racist? If you are not, great. I know from my own experiences though when I was hanging out with some of my white friends when I was in college and we went in the mall and the people were following me around like a hawk , my friends were clueless so to them I hadn't experienced anything. But I had they were just oblivious to it.

That's really awful :sad: I hope if anything like that has every happened to any of my friends they'd tell me. I'd go kick anyone's ass if I thought they were being racist to one of my mates. But in such a multicultural city like Melbourne, it would be tough to be a racist coz there'd be too many targets to pick on.

Rocketta
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:59 AM
jackie Robinson was different. That was in 1947, a much different time and place.... I'd like to think that tennis and its fans can handle two black girls at the top of the sport, given that this is over 50 years later.

Actually, you wouldn't think someone would get tied to a truck and dragged until body parts fell off either would you. I bet you wouldn't think cops would stick a plunger up a young man's @ss. I bet you wouldn't think a young man would be beat and tied to a fence left to die all because of hate. Well excuse me if I know that "hate" in its most detrimental form still exist only differences is the people get sent to jail and don't get off as much.

Oh yeah would you expect Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa to get death threats many times whenever they got close to breaking the home run record? Do you think Mark Maquire was getting continual death threats? Did he have to have special security because of those death threats? You know the same thing that happend to Hank Aaron thirty years earlier. Which was the same thing that happend to Jackie Robinson 50 years earlier. The more things change the more the stay the same.

tennisvideos
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:04 AM
I don't think it has anything to do with race. It's all about personality and domination in the sport as I have mentioned before. Chanda Rubin and James Blake are idolised for the most part all over the world. Surely that says it all.

I am from a minority group that is discriminated against in many instances, but guess what? I don't focus on that aspect of myself. I accept myself as an equal with everyone else and I acknowledge that some people are ignorant and like to discriminate - that is a part of humanity. My strategy is to do the best you can in your own life and if one other person is positively influenced by you, or you can pull down one barrier that one person has, then you are making a difference. Complaining is not going to achieve anything except alienating oneself even more. But by positive actions you can break down barriers!

Cariaoke
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:09 AM
oh so people who complain are just sitting on their asses complaining while other minorities are being 'the bigger person' by being proactive... oh now I get it! :rolleyes: If you think I'm actually suicidal because things are the way they are, you have to be smoking some strong stuff (please say no!). If so, I wouldn't be in college... isn't that what college is all about... improving oneself? Right, I thought so... But just ignoring obvious things in society, doesn't make them magically disappear because there's a segment of the population DETERMINED to make sure the status quo stays in place. You can achieve all you want but that won't stop racism. It's a permanent aspect of society but for people to use a certain race's perceived achievements as further evidence that racism is a fable is incredible.

Kell, I don't recall saying that all white people are blah blah blah. Shoot, I'm part white myself but not enough to notice, brown is dominant, yanno. ;) I'm referring to white people who think that racism doesn't exist. What do you hear most of the time from white people that swear up and down that they're not racist? "I have black friends." Does anyone not see the irony? The only reason racism is more covert today is because there are laws on the books to fight it and it's unacceptable in mainstream society. Sure, I might not be lynched, literally but I can be lynched figuratively by the examples I illustrated earlier. I think it's great that you have friends from different races and that you don't snatch your purse. LOL, that sounds so weird to say. To be honest, I get along with everybody as long as I don't talk politics... :o ... I'm rabid in my beliefs at times... I'm proud of who I am and what I've achieved. I'm just tired of such patronization some of the posters on this board, which is obvious to someone who has experienced racism/discrimination because they see the signs due to that experience, who feel they have a right to say what's racism and what's not when they've NEVER probably experienced it! Isn't that like a man telling a woman how her period is? "Babe, geez it's just blood, get over it! I don't care if you have cramps, that's life!" See how idiotic that sounds? Thought you would.

o0O0o
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:24 AM
No one is saying racism doesn't exist. But I highly, highly doubt that whites in the USA are more racist than blacks. Considering that blacks had a more harsh history, is it any suprise a lot of them still hold a racist grudge? So why you point fingers of racism point them at yourself first.

"Topaz"
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:29 AM
I tip my hat to many of you for your candor, mainly Rocketta, Cariosity, Mrs_Guga, Kell, you too Tennisvideos and others.

For the life of me, I don't understand how someone can fail to connect with Serena when she said: "It's like this every time going into a tournament." Maybe I'm reading too much into it. It's almost difficult to imagine that despite the glamor, the glory and the big contracts, she still feels this special kind of torment "every time going into a tournament". But I guess she does feel it as she let that out while sobbing. That was no acting or sympathy seeking.

Oh well! Life goes on. Tomorrow is another day. I hope she does recover quickly, dig deep into her strengths, face the public as before with her inviting smile and "joie de vivre", and send kisses as before after her wins to come.

Cariaoke
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:33 AM
hmmm... very interesting... how is being racist helping black people when they're not the majority? isn't there strength in numbers? and don't you usually have to be in a position of power to be able to assert your racist thoughts aka discrimination? and since there are more white people in this country, doesn't it make sense that more white people would be in a position of power to assert racist thoughts? hmmm... *ding, ding, ding* By george, I think I'm right.

Actually, I don't have a problem with racists. You can hate all you want but it's when you try to disrupt someone else's life, be it by hindering their chances at success or calling them names to their face is when I have a problem. So, all the backwoods folk, better known as rednecks, in my neighborhood can wave their confederate flags all they want as long as they don't fuck with me, my house and my property. It's all good as long as you don't cover your face with your hood. Cowards!

Back to Serena, Venus, tennis and the world, this time tomorrow everybody will feel better that feels bad now. A lot of us already do. Yanno, talking about things really help! I feel like you do when you get a good cry out. These few posts have been so cathartic for me! woo! I feel so good right now! :bounce:

Knizzle
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:34 AM
Please people. Look at Serena's interview after match against Amélie and then you see the arrogant Serena who is acting tough like she always has done. That's why many people (which I don't belong to!) root against her. Not because she is black. Chanda Rubin for instance is black and always a crowd favourite.

Chanda is not a threat to the top of women's tennis. That's why she is not hated like the WS.

Knizzle
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:39 AM
I don't think it has anything to do with race. It's all about personality and domination in the sport as I have mentioned before. Chanda Rubin and James Blake are idolised for the most part all over the world. Surely that says it all.

I am from a minority group that is discriminated against in many instances, but guess what? I don't focus on that aspect of myself. I accept myself as an equal with everyone else and I acknowledge that some people are ignorant and like to discriminate - that is a part of humanity. My strategy is to do the best you can in your own life and if one other person is positively influenced by you, or you can pull down one barrier that one person has, then you are making a difference. Complaining is not going to achieve anything except alienating oneself even more. But by positive actions you can break down barriers!


Again, the two players you mentioned (Blake and Rubin) are not a threat to the top of their respective tours so they are well liked for now. It's when they start to get bigger and contend for the GS titles that is the problem for those who are racially biased.

irma
Jun 6th, 2003, 06:49 AM
when serena already thinks that it is the case in every tournament then it will be the case in every tournament since every support or noise what is not in her favour will be interpretated as negative and maybe racism

I am not saying this to bash serena, the crowd was very rude today when not because of racism imho, but the above, I know how that works. I am not black at all but I know how it feels when you feel that everybody is against you. it's not a good feeling!

butch
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:31 AM
Ag shame, poor Serena. I feel so much sympathy for her ------> NOOOTTT!! Today the crowd at Roland Garros did to her what she has been doing to her opponents all of her career. She never gives anyone else credit (except Venus); when she lost to Justine and Amelie earlier this year it was all because she played so badly and so this and so that --> never mind that both played incredible matches to beat her. Serena, like all of us, call in these things - if you are going to be disrespectful to people all the time, then at some point the tables are going to turn.

By the way, I am a coloured guy from South Africa (here I am classisfied as "black"), so, no, this isn't some whitey having a go at the black girl. I just cannot comprehend that people, like Serena, can say what they want no matter whom it offends, but when the roles are reversed, she cries injured!! (I always thought it was just in SA that it works that way --> Serena has had this coming a long time. No Sympathy).

~ The Leopard ~
Jun 6th, 2003, 08:00 AM
Stupid bloody crowd. Stupid bloody thread.

salima
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:15 AM
Carefully, carefully i put my hand into this vasps nest.
During the match i got more sympaty for Williams. Someone said that the reason the crowd would not booed for Rubin is that she is not a threat. Spot on, a football crowd allways booes at a player they fear.
If we change players today and put Stephanie Foretz (black french player) in Williams place,
would they go for Foretz: yes
would they boo to Henin-Hardenne: no
If the match was Williams - Foretz
would they go for Foretz: yes
would they boo to Williams: YES

In football (known as soccer in some strange places) it is a "part of the game" to boo at the away teams players, but if the victim is a player with another culture background or colour the booing starts earlier, is louder and involves other elements than the ordinary football things. This must be pointed at repetetly because not in a sports field or anywere else persons should be mobbed because of their colour or background.






(unless they are Americans of cause :p )

All4Williams
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:27 AM
Tennispower,

I was saddened by yesterday's match. I 've been grooming my children in tennis. I've paid thousands. What happened yesterday transcends tennis and sport. Its a human rights issues. Its a political issue. Period. It should not be allowed to happen.
Justine no so long ago blamed Lindsay for cheating when she called a trainer. Whta would she have said had she been in Serena's shoes.

hinquit
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:31 AM
We the white people should always benefit. What the french and
belgian crowd did to Serena was nothing but racism.
And it is no wonder for many of you defending their actions because
you all have been part of all long on this board.

Henin will never win the french with cheating. I hope Clijsters beat her
tommorrow and maybe will never win a grandslam in her life.

rand
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:32 AM
I guess you missed the part about "all my life"? This thread is not about one incident this is about many, several incidents that Williams fans have been speaking of but always have to hear about underdog crap? It had nothing to do with underdog anything. If it did why weren't they hostile to Serena when Justine was winning? It was about trying to intimidate and throw Serena off her game. That's it nothing altruistic about it. It also doesn't have anything to do with Martina Hingis considering she was the one acting up first and the crowd responded to her. That can not be said in this case. Serena did nothing wrong or disrespectful.
why is it that Venus doesn't have those kind of problems?

SJW
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:37 AM
seriously, to say race doesnt play a part in this is somewhat naive.

no its not because im a Serena fan and no its not because im black. im "lucky" enough to be living my life around BOTH middle class whites, and working class black people. im one of those rare ppl who see both side of the coin. to say racism doesnt play as big a part as 50 years ago is something....the racism is still there but its not "open-racism" as before.....

just the other day i was sitting with some white girls and they just started talking about black people. i was like "whoa im here!!!" sometimes i just think they are totally ignorant. sometimes i wanna punch their face in. sometimes i just dont wanna be around ANY type of people.

this world has got to the stage where people would like to believe the colour of ones skin doesnt play a part in everything. is it just a coincidence that these people have never experienced racism in their life?

the way i look, the way i talk, and the way i dress, people will pre-judge me as just another lost cause, a production of people who live a life of crime and corruption. and dont say they dont, cause they do. what they dont know is, i actually have an education at one of the most academically able schools in my country, but looking at me, they wouldnt know or wouldnt care about that.

ah well....shit happens....and will continue to do so

wave
Jun 6th, 2003, 10:01 AM
Let me first say that I haven't seen that match and that I get my information from what I read in the discussions of that board. What comes to my mind are several things:

1. I'm not sure of racism is the biggest reason of what happened yesterday on court, because the French are not known to be very racist people. They love Yannick Noah and he is black. THey like Chanda (like most people do) and she is black. So the problem is more connected to a special player: Serena. And even here I think that being black is not the real reason.

2. Serena is not a crowd favourite, not only in France, also in her home country USA. Is the reason racism? Here I don't believe that we can simply say no. I think that in reason is in the way she and her family (father) acts and acted. They always show their "superiority", strength and power and coolness. Is that wrong? Hmh... I don't know but it is certainly not what makes people like or even love you.

3. MOst important is that this way of presenting themselves is what they had to do during their start. And here comes the racism again. THey were "different" from the start. A lot of fuss was made around the sisters even before they started to play in the WTA. They were promoted to be the best (become the best) long before they actually were the best. This was the way Mr. Williams could get attention and therefore money to teach them tennis. Even so I think that life in the tennis circuit was not easy for them from the start. They "threatened" the existing system by being good and being very outspoken. So the system stroke back on them and made life harder for them. They compensated that with being even more outspoken and cool. It's some kind of vicious circle. They had to be strong and to the people they seem to be arrogant and therefore not too much lovable.

4. I think both sides, their fans and those often called "haters" have to be less single-minded. Try to understand why they present each other the way they do and also try to understand that to some, that doesn't take the time to think about that they just seem to be arrogant and not too nice.

5. All that said, I feel sorry for Serena that life is hard on her, but all of us have problems, some less important ones some much more important ones, and I'm sure that she will come back strong at the Championships.

irma
Jun 6th, 2003, 10:05 AM
"I feel sorry for Serena that life is hard on her"

I don't feel sorry
she is succesfull in what she is doing, she gets appreciation enough (like two awards this months), she has a family who cares about her(at least I have no reason to think otherwise), she is rich and can do what she want.

yeah it's sad that she got boohed but to say life is so hard on her. come on. she should know better then that :o

Chance
Jun 6th, 2003, 10:07 AM
why is it that Venus doesn't have those kind of problems?

Venus has similar problems, when Venus was doublefaulted - the crowd cheered. I also heard after her loss - she was booed

irma
Jun 6th, 2003, 10:09 AM
see I am of the persons who also thinks the whole world is against me either so I totally understand her.

it's just that we have to get real :o

wave
Jun 6th, 2003, 10:12 AM
Irma: I guess life can be hard on you even if you are rich and have a family that cares about you. I thought that you could imagine that. Like I said I think that there are many people who have less luck than her, but still for us two not being black (at least I think so with you), it is too easy to say that Serena has no problems in life at all. I believed you to be a lttle bit more thoughtful and less money-related.
You as a big Steffi-fan: Would you say that Steffi's life was just great during the troubles with her father (time spent in jail) because Steffi is rich and her family cared for her? I don't think so and what I got from the press is that she didn't think so either.

irma
Jun 6th, 2003, 10:21 AM
who is talking about not having problems?

she says life is so though because the whole world is against her. well that's not true.
and steffi in 95-96 had to build up her life and she did a great job. so no I didn't feel sorry!

and talking about discrimination. I know everything about it

ever been in a situation that you heard people celebrate on your supposed death?

SJW
Jun 6th, 2003, 10:22 AM
its funny you should compare the two...

they are my faves of different eras....and yes they both ended up dominating. its funny, but when i was young (i was REAL young when Steffi was dominating b4 Monica) i never thought "oh i hope someone else can beat her and win".....i had great respect for her as a champion

the thing is.....people ended up loving steffi to the end of her career...and i dont think that it was her haters who drove her to the brink

i believe that Serena will retire very soon if things dont change....she is too emotional to be dealing with this all the time. the emotional fatigue she must be feeling right now is worrying....actually i would almost LIKE to see her retire, as i cant bear to see her being treated like this

its upsetting........really and truly

irma
Jun 6th, 2003, 10:27 AM
steffi was insulted by those florida people for years. she also started to cry once

she never boycotted them. she silenced them in 93 for good :devil:

SJW
Jun 6th, 2003, 10:49 AM
gotta love Steffi :)

tennischick
Jun 6th, 2003, 01:22 PM
Serena:
"It was just a tough crowd out there...
"Very tough. Story of my life...
"It's a little difficult. All my life I had to fight. So it's just another fight. It's like this every time going into a tournament."

Let's repeat the last thought: "It's like this every time going into a tournament."

Now let's pause and think ... and think ... soberly. She certainly pointed to today's crowd at RG-03, but with candor she also let us know this has been the case all her life. All her young life.

Why does it have to be so hard to be black? Why, oh why can't the world accept leadership, excellence of any kind, from a black person? ... "Story of my life", said the young girl; little she knows it's the story of millions. Millions sharing the same planet with the rest. Millions aspiring to live and embellish what we call humanity. Millions just willing to assert their stakes in that grand march called history.

TP.
of course i agree with the spirit of your post in general TP :kiss: and in general it is indeed a struggle to be Black and successful and to have people accept and respect this. that is fact and i'm certain that this has been Serena's reality for all of her life. in GENERAL.

with respect to the specific experience she endured yesterday however, at the hands of the French crowd, i honestly do not see how racism can be definitively concluded. if the crowd had not savaged their own adopted Mary Pierce when she disappointed them by losing, if they had not mauled Martina Hingis for her petulance against Steffi, if they had not berated and abused their own Henri Leconte for not delievring the goods -- i would have agreed with you. but the French crowd have a long and colorful history of fickleness. and so while i agree with the general spirit of your post, i do not think it applies in this particular circumstance.

let me give you another example. right now the same crowd that went beserk everytime VerJerk made a face and pumped his fist in his earlier matches is boo'ing him for doing the same thing against Coria. why? bec they love Coria and want him to win. so they've switched sides and suddenly the upstart Verkerk is no longer popular. and Coria just sent his racket flying in anger bec he lost the first set, and it almosthit a ball-boy. if Ververk had done the same thing, the crowd would have started booing. they said not a peep. why? bec they want Coria to win. that's the French for ya. it's up to the players to learn how to deal with it.

i'll tell you what shocked me though. i've always thought of Serena as the mentally stronger of the two sisters. she showed this in Wimbledon when she lost to her sister unfairly, and she showed it again at Indian Wells when the crowd abused her. i was stunned to see the loss of mental strength that has carried her thus far. Serena needs to get a grip. and a game that works connsistently on clay. but that's another topic. ;)

Chance
Jun 6th, 2003, 01:32 PM
[QUOTE=tennischick] she showed this in Wimbledon when she lost to her sister unfairly, QUOTE]

what? :confused:

maya
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:36 PM
Actually, they started whistling and booing when Coria threw his racquet. And I'm not even sure he did it intentionaly - he just threw it in the direction of the ball. He apologised to the ballboy and to the crowd immediately (he did everything but went down on his knees) and he gave his shirt to the ballboy - the one he was wearing at the time - Serena should try that (the thing with the shirt); I bet she would recieve LARGE support ;).

starr
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:43 PM
Venus has similar problems, when Venus was doublefaulted - the crowd cheered. I also heard after her loss - she was booed

Venus got booed after the match because she aloofly brushed off the revered announcer who wanted the same courtside post match interview he had had conducted with all the previous losers and winners of matches.

starr
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:44 PM
Actually, they started whistling and booing when Coria threw his racquet. And I'm not even sure he did it intentionaly - he just threw it in the direction of the ball. He apologised to the ballboy and to the crowd immediately (he did everything but went down on his knees) and he gave his shirt to the ballboy - the one he was wearing at the time - Serena should try that (the thing with the shirt); I bet she would recieve LARGE support ;).


LOL!!! Good advice!!

TonyP
Jun 6th, 2003, 02:54 PM
TennisPower

If Serena feels it is this way "every time I go into a tournament" then maybe she needs to look at some of the things she has done since she's been on the tour. From the moment she and her sister came on the tour, they did not try to be friends with the other girls, they pretty much treated them as enemies.

Put the shoe on the other foot. If Venus and Serena had tried to be friendly, and got the cold shoulder from the other girls, there would have been cries of racism ringing from the rafters. But it seemed to be okay for them to turn the cold shoulder to the other girls and somehow, that was the "right" of two black girls.

As to the crowds, well I have attended in person quite a few Venus or Serena matches and I never saw the overwhelmingly white crowds treat them with anything but respect. I was at Indian Wells, both for the semi-final match that didn't happen and the final that did. Serena was booed in the final for one reason and its a reason her fans refuse to consider.

The fans thought Richard Williams had rigged the outcome of that semi-final and that Serena was the one who benefited from it. It was that simple. (If you remember, the National Inquirer had come out the day before the final with a story that Richard had admitted rigging the Wimbledon semi and the sources of that story were Richard's own son and one of his many mistrisses.)

Serena was also booed in Australia this year, but consider the circumstances. She was behind in the third set and she took an extraordinarily long injury time out. Do you think that Hingis or any white player would NOT have been booed had they done the very same thing?

I don't know what Serena has faced over her life, but the constant emphasis on race does nothing to advance her cause.

But I do know this. Serena is bigger and stronger than the majority of the girls she faces across the net. Yet from the beginning she had a reputation of taking shots at girls with the ball, and at times being a bully in the locker room.

And in the last year or so she has consistantly shown arrogance and disrespect for the people she plays. In fact, that has almost always been the case and she has almost always come up with lame excuses when she lost, including tummy aches.

Her complaints yesterday where very much of the "belly aching" variety. The crowds in Paris have been far more hostile to other players than they were to her.

The fact of the matter is, Serena lost yesterday because she got out played, pure and simple. Playing the race card will not change the results.

How about behaving like Ashe or McNeil or Garrison or Rubin? How about behaving with some dignity, rather than all this "Poor me, I'm black" routine. It rings very hallow after losing a match.

Flatstat
Jun 6th, 2003, 03:03 PM
All the money and glory in the world will not make Serena a happy lady if she believes everytime something doesn't work out the way she wants it do, then it has racial overtones.

She may of conned a few people with her crocodile tears yesterday, but all I saw was a manipulative person trying to play victim for the general audience. I may be harder then a lot of people, but she certainly didn't con me with the fake act.

starr
Jun 6th, 2003, 03:06 PM
And let us not forget the glares and menacing looks Serena gave to Mauresmo time after time in the match before. Of course, Serena is within her rights to do such things and it's not against the rules, but it certainly did not endear her to the French public. I think you can bet on that.

BK4ever
Jun 6th, 2003, 03:21 PM
I'm so sick of all this fighting day in and day out...I use to come here to find insightful people discussing the sport I love most...but with the influx of all the children..playground style discussions have become the norm...

Why don't we all agree on the following things and move on... :rolleyes:

Their is NO racism in the world...
Crowds don't hate V&S because they are black...
Crowds boo V&S because they are going for the underdog...
Venus and Serena never got booed before they were on top...

Its wrong for Serena to say that her opponent played bad, but also assess her own play...

Whatever other player can get away with, S&V are not allowed to do...
We are allowed to hate a player because they play good tennis...
V&S deserved what happened at IW...

In general...lets just all agree to hate V&S and end the debate...

If we can all agree with the above, we can move on and return to intelligent discussions about tennis...free of hypocrisy and hatred :)

starr
Jun 6th, 2003, 03:24 PM
Yes, your post has lent maturity and wisdom to the debate. A fine example indeed. :rolleyes:

Flatstat
Jun 6th, 2003, 03:27 PM
I'm so sick of all this fighting day in and day out...I use to come here to find insightful people discussing the sport I love most...but with the influx of all the children..playground style discussions have become the norm...

Why don't we all agree on the following things and move on... :rolleyes:

Their is NO racism in the world...
Crowds don't hate V&S because they are black...
Crowds boo V&S because they are going for the underdog...
Venus and Serena never got booed before they were on top...

Its wrong for Serena to say that her opponent played bad, but also assess her own play...

Whatever other player can get away with, S&V are not allowed to do...
We are allowed to hate a player because they play good tennis...
V&S deserved what happened at IW...

In general...lets just all agree to hate V&S and end the debate...

If we can all agree with the above, we can move on and return to intelligent discussions about tennis...free of hypocrisy and hatred :)

The very attitude that is bringing Serena down.

You are also the same person who posted time after time how Venus blew a 40-0 love lead against Vera AFTER it was explained to you that Vera hit 3 clean winners. You need to wake up and see reality

Keith
Jun 6th, 2003, 03:38 PM
I'm sorry, but I missed the part where Serena said "It happens at every tournament I play"

I truly feel bad for Serena because she was treated unfairly. I'm not saying that she deserved the treatment, but Serena can be pretty arrogant and dismissive towards other people and their accomplishments. Especially in this day and age where you can find player comments at point of your fingertips. You don't have to look far to see that Serena can be quite cocky.

And I agree with Craig (tennisvideos) I am in a minority. It is me and I could not care at all when someone says something about me or make general statements, sterotypes, whatever. I know people will always say stuff, but I can truly say that it does not matter to me. Even when people make a joke about gays, I laugh. And a lot of them time, I don't even think the jokes are out of hatred. I don't get mad inside or anything. I mean, this is me and I dont give a fuck what anyone else thinks.

I do feel bad for Serena that she cried - I'm sure those were real tears. But the way Serena talks, I can't help but think that she cried because she lost, too. It seems to me that Serena wanted everyone to think that she is unbeatable, never gets nervous, etc. Serena can beat someone 60 61 and still be unhappy, so I would imagine that losing by a close margin is a tough pill for her to swallow.

tennischick
Jun 6th, 2003, 03:43 PM
:worship: TonyP :worship:

words to live by bro...;)

TonyP
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:17 PM
BK4ever:
Yes, racism still exists. But there can be no basis for rational discussion if every negative feeling toward a black player is written off as racism by other blacks. Racism is NOT the only issue on earth. Many people don't like Serena because of Serena. She does some things right, but many things wrong, including dissing the entire French nation not too long ago over Iraq. Do you think the French just forgot all about that? Do you think they don't see her arrogant attitude? Other factors besides race come into play in tennis and in the rest of life, too. And many number ones have faced the same thing she does in that the crowd is not always with them. Hingis, Graf, Seles in their early days, all faced the very same thing.

Was that all over race, too?

Primula
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:25 PM
ppl please! They were not booing at Serene because sh's black, absolutely not! The main part of the crowd were belgians, it's very normal that they support Justine, okay maybe sometimes it was to much! But it had nothing to do with Serena being black!
But you have to admitt: Serena is not very modest, is she? When you say things like: when I lose it's because I played bad, not because my opponent played that well ! When you say such things you ask for it!

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Serena, but she has to show some more modesty, even if it's only to show some respect to her opponents!

the cat
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:25 PM
The French crowds are notorious for being quite snippy with many tennis players through the years. Including their own. :eek: And they turned on Serena yesterday because Justine Henin wasn't a fair sport and Serena called her on it and got blamed for it when it was Henin's fault.

And incedentally, Serena was right about the calls she questioned.

Tony, Serena has settled into the champions role quite well. She was treated badly yesterday for no good reason. She had every right to question the calls she did.

And her reputation for going after girls at the nets was from several years ago. I don't recall any instances in recent years. And going at the opponent at the net has always been accepted in tennis.

Serena has used some excuses over the years that weren't needed. But yesterdays fiasco was caused by her legitimate complaints in her match against Henin.

I wouldn't be surprised if Serena decided to take out her frustration on her opponents at Wimbledon! :eek:

And the crowd behaviour last year at Indian Wells was a disgrace! :mad: That cannot be denied. I don't blame the sisters for not going back.

Rocketta
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:37 PM
I'm tired of people glossing over the fact that Serena did absolutely nothing wrong yesterday. Using examples of when the French got on people for acting badly on court or acting arrogant on the court doesn't apply because Serena didn't do that yesterday. She questioned calls which every player does on the court and was right. Also, Justine not owning up did give the impression that Serena was being "picky" when she was right again.

Secondly, this thread is not about just the one incident. This is about crowd reaction over their career.

For whoever, said the girls were cold in the locker room when they first came on the tour venus said it best. "Why should I speak to someone who doesn't speak to me?" She said nobody talks about how none of the girls went out of their ways to befriend Venus and Serena. Oh that's right the minority is suppose to be the one who ingratiates themselves into the majority. Oh Yeah, The majority has no responsibility to be inclusive. As friendly as Serena is to even think if someone talked to her she wouldn't talk back is ridiculous. They don't talk to other players in the locker room because when they first came on the scene no one was interested in befriending them so they said Fcuk it. But of course its all the Williams fault. They brought it on themselves. People aren't in control of their own actions. Venus and Serena made them do it. :eek: :eek: :eek:

the cat
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:47 PM
Great points Rocketta! It's hard to imagine Serena being unfriendly to people as gregarious and outgoing as she is.

The communication problems between the Williams sister and the other WTA Tour players when they joined the tour should be shared by both sides.

But most importantly Rocketta, you pointed out the most obvious point of all! Serena did nothing wrong during the match yesterday. She had every right to question calls that she by the way was right about. She wasn't rude and petulent like Martina Hingis was in 1999. And Martina was right then, too. She just behaved badly and paid for it bigtime when the French crowd booed her the rest of the match! :(

starr
Jun 6th, 2003, 04:48 PM
Yeah. Well Henri Leconte didn't do anything wrong either. He lost a final in straight sets and was easily beaten. I don't call this doing something wrong, but the French crowd booed him to smitherines.

TonyP
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:12 PM
Rocketta:

No new player comes on the tour and finds the others standing there was bouquets of flowers and welcome signs.

And other players, like Hingis in '99, drew the wrath of French crowds, simply for questioning a line call and that was long before she walked around the net.

To say Serena did nothing wrong is also showing either a lack of memory, or else a lack of understanding of sports.

Serena dissed the whole French nation by accusing them of cowardess for not going to war against Iraq. She also did an aweful lot of glaring at Mauresmo in their match. Then there is her constant attitude of "I only lose when I beat myself." None of those things build you a fan base.

As to what happened in the match, it doesn't matter. Those things happened before the match, but proved that French don't forget, just as they didn't forget in '99 to Hingis.

Williams fans must realize this is a sporting event and crowds have favorities. Serena is apparently NOT a French favorite any longer.

So what? Try attending a baseball game or a hockey match in the US. Think the other visiting team isn't booed at every opportunity?

Lastly, Serena just doesn't look like other players. I don't even think Navratilova looked as muscle heavy as Serena does. Many people think she has turned the game into a sport that is all about power, so people who think women's tennis should be about other things always pull against her.

But don't forget, any dominate player usually winds up facing that old "underdog problem." Hingis, Graf, etc. were all considered too dominate for awhile and the crowd pulled for their opponents. Seles, today the darling of the tour, was NOT the darling in her heyday when she was winning everything in sight.

Serena could do a lot to soften her image, but chooses not too.

I was in Manhattan Beach last year when Chanda beat Lindsay, the hometown favorite, in the finals. The crowd gave Chanda a standing ovation.

Chanda has a whole different image and nobody dislikes her, despite the color of her skin so the socalled racism issue doesn't seem to apply with her. Chanda comes off as anything but arrogant. Chanda doesn't have a lot of "tude."

Serena could work on that.

DA FOREHAND
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:18 PM
"Lastly, Serena just doesn't look like other players. I don't even think Navratilova looked as muscle heavy as Serena does. Many people think she has turned the game into a sport that is all about power, so people who think women's tennis should be about other things always pull against her."


LOUD AND WRONG! I met Martina N, in 83, and believe me she was much more muscular and defined than Serena's ever been, and I saw Serena in April during fed cup.

Monica ushered in the true power players of tennis, there was/is nothing elegant about her game.

Chanda doesn't get flack, because of her personality, she seems to go along to get along. The Williams family has done it thier way from the beginning, and I'm sure this has gotten them the "U.N." tag.(If you don't know what that means I understand).

"Topaz"
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:35 PM
You may be right Tennischick and TonyP, but the same person who gets booed here and there (from one continent to the other) may not quite see the difference. The way one interprets signals depends heavily on one's past experience.

Let's be real, skin colour is only one of the inputs people get when they approach a person. The way you dress, talk, smile, your weight, height, grooming, even beauty are all kinds of input that predispose people towards you. Prior knowledge about you goes into it as well. In effect, any of these can work for or against you depending on the situation. For example, if an institution needs a token black for political reason or to send a message, a black person with the required qualifications will get the advantage.

Serena can try to get more educated, more beautiful, she can improve her tennis skills but that additional racial load, which may or may not be present in one place or the other, can't be acted upon. She even tried the blonde thing but decided to drop it this year. (In passing, note that Justine also tried the blonde thing but stuck with it.) So, given Serena's African-American life experience, when she talks about "story of my life", we have a clue of what she means and that resonates quite sadly. It's one additional thing one need not have to care about, on top of everything else modern life requires.

I am sure Serena is well liked in many venues and settings; otherwise, her life would be unbearable. In all this, there is a clear message: she's highly successful and, therefore, anybody can succeed in spite of race (or creed) as long as they're willing to make the effort to improve and hone those traits, skills and behaviours they can act upon.

BTW, as for yesterday's match, I, for one, felt Serena got outplayed. In a tennis match I always look for shot selection, execution and stamina. I think Justine was ahead in all three, and therefore won. Amazingly, even though outplayed and on her worse surface, Serena could still have won, which bodes well for her future at the top of the tour.

the cat
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:35 PM
Tony, you make some good points. But you are going too far refering to Serena's fake French voice as her way of calling the French cowards. That's not true, Serena was against the War, too. She just made the mistake of trying to bring humour and a French accent into it. And she sounded bad doing it. I'm sure she learned from that.

Serena has softened her image. And the sisters have grown on me over the years.

By the way, could TonyP really be Tony Parker of the San Antonio Spurs? ;)

Good post DA FOREHAND!

Rocketta
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:38 PM
TonyP, if the French crowd was upset over her statement they would've treated her bad in round 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.... That wasn't their motivation.

Secondly, nobody said the players should have bouquets waiting for new players, I said they could say hi being that they are the ones who are comfortable having been in the locker rooms many more times than any new player. Its interesting that I say they can say hi and you interpret it as trying to kiss someones butt. hmm, maybe that's the mentality of the other players as well.

look back I talked about cheering for an "underdog" and cheering against someone big difference. Also, look back for my feelings about basketball/football crowds. I'm not posting it again. Its in one of these threads.

Mrs. Peel
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:43 PM
It is tiresome to have Chanda Rubin continually referenced as some emotionless mope, who couldn't possibly be rude or annoying. She doesn't carry half of the status and noteriety of the sisters...does anyone really pay her that much attention to even focus on her attitudes and behaviour with as much scrutiny as V & S? Serena farting would generate more input from people than anything Chanda could do at the moment.

I do believe there is a poster on these boards who had a traumatic experience with Ms. Rubin, which as he described is sooooo far removed from this angelic demeanour she is supposed to possess...from what I remember of it, she wasn't so nice or sweet....

Mrs. Peel
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:45 PM
TonyP, if the French crowd was upset over her statement they would've treated her bad in round 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.... That wasn't their motivation.

Secondly, nobody said the players should have bouquets waiting for new players, I said they could say hi being that they are the ones who are comfortable having been in the locker rooms many more times than any new player. Its interesting that I say they can say hi and you interpret it as trying to kiss someones butt. hmm, maybe that's the mentality of the other players as well.

look back I talked about cheering for an "underdog" and cheering against someone big difference. Also, look back for my feelings about basketball/football crowds. I'm not posting it again. Its in one of these threads.



SO TRUE!!! If the crowds were motivated by her statements..she would have been booed in the early rounds...there was no sign of this...

i-girl
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:47 PM
that press conference was heartbreaking. she was so upset, it was almost too difficult to watch. if they drove her to that, clearly, their conduct was wrong.

I hope she woke up this morning, and remebered that she is the no.1 player in the world, that she can OWN all those people who booed her, and that she has never let anyone's opinion of her stop her from getting to where she wanted to be. I hope she's feeling better now.

SJW
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:47 PM
"Then there is her constant attitude of "I only lose when I beat myself."

ok give me an incident when that hasnt been the case.

when ur that much better over the whole tour (ala Steffi, Monica) and u can overpower each one of them (which is why i didnt include Martina II) you generally lose cos u played like shit

let me get this right....Serena is not allowed to tell the truth, but she also HAS to tell the truth?

my my my my my

tennischick
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:48 PM
Tennispower:
at no point did i deny the reality of racism, and there may have been more than a few racists in the crowd yesterday. but what i'm trying to say is that while in general, i agree with you. in this specific instance, i don't.

or perhaps i should just let the words of my favorite boxer (Roy Jones) speak for themselves:
if you're the champ, you're supposed to take whatever comes at you. if my opponents aren't good, it's not my fault. perhaps i should add, "and if my opponents beat me, i will not dissolve into a flipping cry-baby when i go around trash-talking about how tough i am."

and i say this as a fan of Serena's ;)

Rocketta
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:49 PM
Here is my take on this- Serena expected the French crowd to be rowdy in her match with Amelie, so she came out with a steely disposition- she was ready. For some reason it didn't happen- the rowdy crowd....then she didn't expect it in her match against Justine and it happened- i think thats why she was really bothered because against a French player, you can almost understand it but against Justine?? Now Serena will remember to not believe the 'hype' ( the adulation etc...the Williams know who they true fans are and they should always remember that) and remember what her father has instilled in her all these years- keep ya head up girl, we all know Serena will learn from this lesson!! People ALWAYS remind you...and show their true colors..I'm glad she had a reminder.


That's exactly why I think it threw her off plus being upset over Justine either saying no she didn't raise her hand or Justine's silence over the matter (I don't know which happend). It just threw her off she wasn't ready for it. It was her mistake in the end cause she should've known better. Now in turns of her career I'm sure she gets weary. I would. Sometimes you break and then your able to endure a little longer after some release.

Gonzo Hates Me!
Jun 6th, 2003, 05:56 PM
Yes, Serena's press conference made ME CRY! That was soooooo sad. :sad: I do cry very easily!!!! Haha! But still!! Aaaaww, poor baby

CiCi Bonus Baby
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:48 PM
It must be tough living in a world where everything you do is for good and out of love and everything we do is evil and wrong.

what's with the 'you and we' business?

"Topaz"
Jun 6th, 2003, 07:50 PM
Tennispower:
at no point did I deny the reality of racism ...I never implied you did. Some misunderstanding somewhere! :worship: :worship: :kiss: :kiss:

Now in turns of her career I'm sure she gets weary. I would. Sometimes you break and then your able to endure a little longer after some release.I hope she recover quickly. Wimbledon is just around the corner. :worship:

CiCi Bonus Baby
Jun 6th, 2003, 08:00 PM
Let me first say that I haven't seen that match and that I get my information from what I read in the discussions of that board. What comes to my mind are several things:

1. I'm not sure of racism is the biggest reason of what happened yesterday on court, because the French are not known to be very racist people.

where r u from? u been to france at all? know any minority french people? heard about the fn or le penn?

They love Yannick Noah and he is black.

get a clue.

the cat
Jun 6th, 2003, 08:24 PM
Knockout posts by Rocketta and Bajangurl! :D

Why do people care so much that Serena talk about beating herself or her unforced errors caused her to lose? Did anyone every hear or read press conferences of Graf, Seles, Navratilova, Connors, McEnroe etc. after they lost a match? They made excuses. And the players today make excuses as to why they lost. And I can gurantee that the 2 players who lose in the men's and women's finals of the French Open will be talking about their unforced errors. Big deal.

Gandalf
Jun 6th, 2003, 08:43 PM
Keith is right. She doesn't say that 'It happens at every tournament' in the interview:

Q. Can you tell me what you thought of the crowd's sportsmanship, or lack of it?

SERENA WILLIAMS: It was just a tough crowd out there today, really. Very tough. Story of my life...

Q. Talking about the crowds, last time you said you were able to put yourself in a cocoon and shut out the crowd. Was it harder to do today because you did not expect this level, Justine not being a French player?

SERENA WILLIAMS: Yeah, it was a bit harder today because she started out really strong. And from the first point, they were all over her to do well. And so I think, you know, it was just a little hard to get in the rhythm. Once they get started, it's kind of hard to make them stop.

Q. She serves for the match at 5-4, plays a terrible service game. It's 5-all, you're serving for it. The match is back within your hands again. Then you let it slip away. Looked like you were a bit nervous. What happened there?

SERENA WILLIAMS: I definitely wasn't nervous. I think I just ?? you know, I just didn't do what I needed to do. I probably needed to serve a little bit better and I wasn't able to do that.

Q. You said "story of your life." Why do you think that is?

SERENA WILLIAMS: I don't know... (crying) I'm not used to crying.

Q. Do you ever get used to it? Is it hard every time?

SERENA WILLIAMS: It's a little difficult. All my life I've had to fight. So it's just another fight. I'm going to have to learn how to win. That's all.

-------------

Anyway, I think the crowd wasn't right, but they have already been in the past with other players. I don't think it's because she's black or American. I don't think Serena believes that, either.

DA FOREHAND
Jun 6th, 2003, 08:57 PM
"Originally Posted by wave
They love Yannick Noah and he is black."

LOL that's like saying some of my friends are black!..LOL ....I hope that was meant to be a joke.

ot1962
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:01 PM
Just shut the fuck up, please. This is pure ignorance. Racism may be well alive, but it has nothing to do with why Serena was booed. Honestly France has a history of being more open and accepting of blacks long before the US, which is why a lot of black left for Europe from the US during the early-mid 1900's. Honestly get a life....if you go through life always trying to use the race card, people are gonna see you for what you are, a fucking whiner and a liar trying to bend the truth to make it work for you.


I have not posted for a while.
But when someone can be so foolish enough to tell blatant lies when the WHOLE truth say otherwise, i have to let them know of their deceitful ways.

France has a history of blacks??? Are you saying that to make you feel better? Are you talking about the few Jazz musicians???
I have tasted life on both side of the coin, and despite U.S' problems Europe remains more intolerant to Black people. Look at the facts before you blow off. In Europe blacks are okay so long as they "STAY where the belong". Don't let me start! It makes me laugh when "some" Europeans perceive the U.S as being more racist, when they might not have spoken to a black person in their own country to know what ther life is like.

Cariaoke
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:19 PM
Keith is right. She doesn't say that 'It happens at every tournament' in the interview:

Q. Can you tell me what you thought of the crowd's sportsmanship, or lack of it?

SERENA WILLIAMS: It was just a tough crowd out there today, really. Very tough. Story of my life...

Q. Talking about the crowds, last time you said you were able to put yourself in a cocoon and shut out the crowd. Was it harder to do today because you did not expect this level, Justine not being a French player?

SERENA WILLIAMS: Yeah, it was a bit harder today because she started out really strong. And from the first point, they were all over her to do well. And so I think, you know, it was just a little hard to get in the rhythm. Once they get started, it's kind of hard to make them stop.

Q. She serves for the match at 5-4, plays a terrible service game. It's 5-all, you're serving for it. The match is back within your hands again. Then you let it slip away. Looked like you were a bit nervous. What happened there?

SERENA WILLIAMS: I definitely wasn't nervous. I think I just ?? you know, I just didn't do what I needed to do. I probably needed to serve a little bit better and I wasn't able to do that.

Q. You said "story of your life." Why do you think that is?

SERENA WILLIAMS: I don't know... (crying) I'm not used to crying.

Q. Do you ever get used to it? Is it hard every time?

SERENA WILLIAMS: It's a little difficult. All my life I've had to fight. So it's just another fight. I'm going to have to learn how to win. That's all.

-------------

Anyway, I think the crowd wasn't right, but they have already been in the past with other players. I don't think it's because she's black or American. I don't think Serena believes that, either.
If you had read the entire interview, posted here (http://wtaworld.com/showthread.php?threadid=73287), you'd know she did say it happens every tournament (more people cheering against her than for). In fact even in her MTV diary LAST YEAR, she said when she plays an American, they're normally for the other player.:

Q. Obviously, a tough day at the office with the crowd booing, applauding double?faults, applauding errors. Your mom did say she felt it showed a lack of class and ignorance of the etiquette of tennis. In your heart, did you feel that? Were you hurt by that?

SERENA WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's, you know, honestly, it's really tough when you get to the semifinals to have to face a crowd that's not going to be for you. It's like, you know, this every time going into a tournament. You do so much...

I don't know... You know, it's okay.

Voodoo
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:24 PM
Serena fans too mad ;). Chill out "tennis" fans justice will be served at Wimbledon. See this defeat as a wake-up call for the Williamses to stay focused in every match. I loved the way she handled herself against Amelie Mauresmo she should be like that every match nomatter what the circumstances.

Vengeance will be sweet @ Wimby.

Pinkie
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:27 PM
This discussion is not going to end as long as Serena is a top tennis player. The thing is that she is black and she has a personality that is easy to find fault with. And the reason why she is not liked by many is sometimes a bit of one (racism) and sometimes a bit of the other (Serena being arrogant and petulant).

I can understand that people who have to deal with racism almost every day of their life are going to focus on the racism that Serena undoubtedly has to deal with. But you can't deny that Serena can be ungracious, arrogant, etc sometimes. Even if you don't mind that, you have to understand that it greatly bothers others.

I can understand that non-fans want to ignore the racial element of Serena bashing. But that's not fair either. Even in this PC world, racism is a very pervasive force, the power of which you really don't understand if you are not one of the people who are discriminated against.

Callie20
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:30 PM
Like Tiger Woods is in a sport dominated by blacks :rolleyes:

of course racism is still out there, and it probably always will. But reading all this crap on the board..I realize that some black posters are racists themselves.


Actually, Tiger Woods was sent death threats for winning the Masters. :rolleyes:

Voodoo
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:35 PM
But that's really it isn't it pinky. Serena is being held to a different standard than other players that were on top. It's is true that when you're black you have to work twice as hard to be accepted, liked or considered just as good in society.

It's because she doesn't make the extra effort to be liked, so they consider her arrogant.

DA FOREHAND
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:37 PM
You're right Pinkie, someone ought to teach that girl (Serena) to stay in her place. How dare she be a confident, (arrogant), articulate young woman who speaks her mind. She'd have many more "fans" if she'd just follow in Chanda's footsteps. I mean who does she think she is Martina Hingis? Not to mention the fact that I'm sure the French are'nt that great at preparing fried chicken and collards for the champions dinner.

SJW
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:45 PM
Yes, Serena's press conference made ME CRY! That was soooooo sad. :sad: I do cry very easily!!!! Haha! But still!! Aaaaww, poor baby

LOL!! OMG i didnt even know about it till my friend sent me an email with it today....i turned onto EurosportNews and i saw it. i was gutted...i was really trying hard not to break down there :(

re. "Europe remaining more intolerant to black people" that is so not true, AT ALL. that is not the case in England (but we like to say we are not really Europe as in the continental sense ;))

over here IMHO i think its easier to be black than in many other white-majority countries. the love the media/commentators etc show for the sisters makes me smile :)

im just gonna pretend the tennis world is exactly like that of England...cos you know, at the moment i feel we are the best at behaving when it comes to respecting players :(

Rocketta
Jun 6th, 2003, 09:47 PM
that press conference was heartbreaking. she was so upset, it was almost too difficult to watch. if they drove her to that, clearly, their conduct was wrong.

I hope she woke up this morning, and remebered that she is the no.1 player in the world, that she can OWN all those people who booed her, and that she has never let anyone's opinion of her stop her from getting to where she wanted to be. I hope she's feeling better now.

I think she is, i-girl! I think she is. :wavey: :wavey:

Pinkie
Jun 7th, 2003, 12:29 AM
You're right Pinkie, someone ought to teach that girl (Serena) to stay in her place. How dare she be a confident, (arrogant), articulate young woman who speaks her mind.

Hey, she can be anyone she wants to be. Whatever works for her. And if you like her for it, good for you. Her confidence is something all tennis players I am sure are envious of (as a Kim fan, I have to admire the confidence that helped her dig herself out of the 5-1 hole in the AO semi-finals, as heartbreaking as it was for me to watch). And if her mother raised her to be a proud woman, all power to her. And I'm sure many people's offense to her confidence and pride is racially-based. But having said that, that still leaves her ungraciousness and, yes, arrogance in dismissing opponents' achievements.