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View Full Version : Let's admit: Elena D. WAS overrated as a potential top 10er...


tenn_ace
Jan 21st, 2002, 06:08 AM
There were quite a few discussions back few months ago. Fans were talking about the second echelon (after Venus, Serena, Martina, Lindsay) and also were comparing Elena, Jelena, Justine and Kim.

It is obvious now (at least to me) that Elena doesn't belong to that group (Belgians and Dokic). Elena is a good player, will have a career of, probably, Sandrine Testud (which is not too bad), few bright moments, but overall nothing outstanding.

Cassius
Jan 21st, 2002, 06:19 AM
Until Elena gets a full time coach she will unfortunatly remain just another top 20 player who on her day can beat anybody but has never lived up to her potential
e.g
Sandrine Testud
Dominique Van Roost
Amanda Coetzer

Sad I know, but true!

Matt

Plus Elena is mentally weak (like most Russian players, don't you think)!!!

tenn_ace
Jan 21st, 2002, 07:05 AM
couple of years ago mental toughness was Elena's strong side. Where did it go?

I agree, for some reason Russian players (women) do have problems in this department. No clue why.

bubble
Jan 21st, 2002, 07:18 AM
What is happening to Elena?

This match is an exact replica of the Fed Cup final where she lost to the other Belgian...

She should do something, get a coach or sports psychologist !
It's so sad to see a player of her potential go to waste like that!

tenn_ace
Jan 21st, 2002, 07:22 AM
From what I'v eheard and read, she seems to be satisfied with her present achievements. I don't think coach or psychologist would help her until she's hungry again.

TheBoiledEgg
Jan 21st, 2002, 07:57 AM
Well Elena's very upset they way she lost,
Elena should be finishing her PC about now.

She went for way too much on her shots and mostly too early in rallies.

Also she wasn't hitting her 1st serves at 100% until after rain delay.

Its raining pretty bad here so looks like juniors will have to wait until late evening if at all.

Gonna go back and watch Haas v Federer.

Martian KC
Jan 21st, 2002, 08:21 AM
If dokic can be in the top ten, I don't see why Elena can't be....she just needs to be consistent!!!:mad:

tenn_ace
Jan 21st, 2002, 09:17 AM
KingCing, consistency is a huge part of right shot selection. Elena is known to make the wrong choices in tough matches. According to TBE report, it was the case in her match against Juju. Not suprised here.

the cat
Jan 21st, 2002, 10:14 AM
Facts are the facts. Elena is too one dimentional. And she is constantly being exposed against top flight players.

She needs to get a new coach. A Pavel Slozil type.

Leave that dog of hers at home.

Think about leaving Moscow for better training facilities and better practice partners. Elena is very comfotable being a good player. But I've never seen a player with her great size, great power and great speed do so little with her game. Her mental toughness is gone. I knew she would be overmatched by Justines's great talent level and great variety. And she was.

I only hope that being constantly embarrassed in big matches, will force Elena to make changes. But I doubt it.

It sure looks like the Fed Cup final was no fluke. I think the Belgian Queens Kim Clijsters and Justine Henein are going to run roughshod over the Russian Princesses for many years to come. Who's going to stop Clijsters and Henin? Dementieva and Kournikova? I doubt it. Maybe Maria Sharapova and Svetlana Kuznetsova will be able to give Clijsters and Henin a run for their money in a couple of years. But that's a big "maybe".

ys
Jan 21st, 2002, 05:53 PM
Dementieva has always been slow to start the season. Of, course, we expected better result, still it is the best showing of Elena Dementieva in Australia. Time to move on, go to Tokyo, and try to capitalise on depleted draw over there. It is only the second tournament of the year. And she needs to do something to prepare herself mentally better to big matches. That's the only area where she defiitely has to improve. We are upset about the outcome, but I think, not nearly as upset as she is. I am pretty optimistic about her future.

tenn_ace
Jan 21st, 2002, 06:58 PM
the issue is not in a loss.. the issue is in how she does it. She is being dismissed by the girls that are not even a top of the women's game. That's the problem!

the truth is in your post, ys. Time to move on, go to Tokyo, and try to capitalise on depleted draw over there.

a true top player capitalizes on all opportunities without betting on a good draw.

the cat
Jan 21st, 2002, 08:04 PM
I find it alarming that Elena isn't even competitive in big matches anymore. Last year against Venus(Indian Wells), Jennifer(Ericsson), Anke(Wimbledon), Jelena(Moscow), Kim(Fed Cup final). And now Justine(2002 Australian Open). Elena was wiped out by all these players, when she had alot to play for. Elena was playing great at this years Australian Open. That is until she played Justine Henin, who is a far superior talent. Then Elena fell apart and was completely overwhelmed by Henin.

Aren't you fellow Dementieva fans concerned by her being blown out of these matches? She should be better than just another top 20 player.

P.S. - Elena may have the worst service game of any top 20 player I have ever seen. And that's ridiculous! Because Elena is nearly 6 feet tall, and she is a fine athlete. Her serve should at worst be decent. But it's not. And it's holding her developement back. It's time for a new coach Elena. Or a new attitude. Or both. Udachi Elena!

ys
Jan 21st, 2002, 08:05 PM
It is all mental.. First set, even that it was a bagel, she won 17 points, meaning that she had at least 5 deuces in that set. And won none of them.

the cat
Jan 21st, 2002, 09:38 PM
ys, there must have been alot of tough games, because the mach took one hour and sixteen minutes to play. And when do you ever see a 6-0 6-3 match in women's tennis take one hour and sixteen minutes? Hardly ever. It would normally only take about 50 to 55 minutes to play. So, Elena must have been in alot of games. Elena certainly has perfected the art of poor shot selection. Hasn't she?

fresh2flash
Jan 21st, 2002, 09:50 PM
Elena D`s power is her FH, which is really strong and without doubt of the top10 level. But other components of her play - serve, BH, net play - are not that good. Can a player be a grand champion only having FH? I doubt it.

ys
Jan 21st, 2002, 09:54 PM
Both Elena D. and Anna K. are in desperate need of a coach. Elena D. needs it more. Anna K. just needs to get her head fixed, she doesn't really need a conventional coach, she needs someone who would help her with confidence and focus.. Apart from the same need, Elena also needs to develop more of variety. It would be shame for such gifted athletes not to break thru. I think they will..:) Soon ..:) Russian curse won't last for much longer..:)

auntie janie
Jan 22nd, 2002, 03:02 AM
I agree with ys 100% about what is needed by both Anna and Elena if they are to threaten the top players.

Elena's problems go beyond the mental; she desperately needs a coach in the game of Tennis! She seems unable to adapt to various players' styles of play, and does best against a baseliner who hits all her shots straight back to the baseline. How far can you get in your sport if you can't figure out how to beat a variety of opponents? And as others have said, her own game is too predictable.

Even with all the problems Anna is currently experiencing, I feel quite sure that if these two were to meet, Anna, with her varied game, would easily beat Elena.

TheBoiledEgg
Jan 22nd, 2002, 05:18 AM
Elena only has her mother to talk to, thats what happend during rain delay so no real change of plan.


BTW Elena's 2nd serve average yesterday was faster than Marat Safin's

Elena 146kph
Marat 137kph

tenn_ace
Jan 22nd, 2002, 08:01 AM
as I posted before I happened to hear Elena's preparation her match against Talaja, I believe. She discussed Talaja style with her mother and her hitting partner (Karina). I tell you, guys: that was laughable. My friend on high school team does better home work than Elena.

I'm afraid I started disliking her mom. She certainly did a lot for Elena in the past, but right now she's interrupting with the process of developing as a tennis player. Elena got to understand somehow that she needs a full time coach. While it's not too late.

the cat
Jan 22nd, 2002, 09:23 PM
tenn_ace, that shows that Elena is not mentally ready to be a bigtime player. And that's too bad.

Janie, Anna would easily beat Elena? LOL! As yours and my favorite commentator used to scream, "you cannot be serious"! Who does Anna ever beat easily? And did you see Elena's dominant scores in her first three 2002 Australian Open matches? She totally dominated her opponents, in a way that Anna never could. Sure, Anna has more skills and more natural talent than Elena. But I can't imagine Anna ever beating Elena as easily as you think she will. Janie, I caertainly agree with you that they both need a coach who can help them with strategy. because unforced errors are their downfalls.

ys
Jan 22nd, 2002, 09:39 PM
I understand Elena perfectly. In this case she just needs time to do that. When someone did so much for her as her mother, then even if Elena feels that she has already overgrown her mother's coaching/scouting abilities, it is not so easy to dump someone who is so close to you. She'll have to do that sooner or later, but that is not as easy as you may think. It took Safin two relatively bad years since his 1998 FO breakthrough to realise that Mensua, who according to Marat was like a father to him, is no longer the right coach for him. It took too long years with almost no success on Tour for Marat to make that move..

auntie janie
Jan 22nd, 2002, 11:11 PM
ys,

The sad thing is that these players' mothers themselves do not see any problem at all!

Elena's mother puts her daughter in a difficult position by not facing facts and finding her a real coach to pass the baton to, while still standing by her as a supportive Mom.

Anna's mother compounds the problem by interfering with such coaches as HAVE been hired for Anna, to an extent they find intolerable. They then spread the warning about Alla around the whole coaching world, and I am sure it would not be at all easy to find a good coach for Anna at this point, even if her parents faced the fact that one is urgently required (along with a shrink).

I find Elena's situation sadder, because she is so much further from achieving what she could than Anna, who at least had her day in the sun in 1997 and 1998.

cat,

I think Anna, the ratings Underdog but longtime Russian #1, would have the mental edge in an Anna-Elena match. To tell the truth, I really feel that any such meeting has the potential to be an error-fest of hideous proportions! :eek: :eek: :eek:

the cat
Jan 24th, 2002, 04:00 AM
LOL@Janie! An Anna/Elena match would be a hideous error-fest? Maybe. But I would still like to see that match. So would many others.

ys
Jan 15th, 2003, 04:18 PM
One year later things got only worse and much worse, didn't they?

spiceboy
Jan 15th, 2003, 04:21 PM
Poor Elena...

TheBoiledEgg
Jan 16th, 2003, 01:13 AM
She needs someone with her
its not looking good for her at all :sad:

auntie janie
Jan 16th, 2003, 01:19 AM
Ouch!!!! It's terrible to see things are even worse a year later. :sad:

At least, Anna did hire a coach & ditch her mom. But she ignored my advice about the shrink, so it hasn't helped!

Elena, what is left to say. :sad:

DEETHELICK
Jan 16th, 2003, 12:51 PM
I feel so sad about this. Really she is Top 10, I mean Wertheim even predicted her to be surefire Top 5!!!!

Coach and sports psychologist will make a huge difference, but the question is....will she do it?

Her ranking will have dropped considerably.... :sad:

*JR*
Jan 16th, 2003, 05:25 PM
As I said in a totally POSITIVE post on the Bovina thread in this forum, she's a great player 2B (perhaps already). She'll surely be (or is) "the Elena". Now how about being objective and applying the same "overrated" label to a famous Russian citizen who deserves it MORE than Elena D. does?

ys
Jan 16th, 2003, 06:58 PM
That 'citizen', apart from true problems ( such as stubornness and offcourt activity ) has one very valid excuse - injuries. I really can't think of any currently active player who would have had similar share of injuries as her by her current age, and would still be ranked quite high and kept on trying to break through.

auntie janie
Jan 18th, 2003, 12:14 AM
ys,

AK played in 24 tournaments last year, didn't she? Most would consider that a VERY full, even an excessive, season and plenty of time to recover from any injury. Remember, AK returned to action in September 2001! She had been back in action for 11 months, and with Solomon for several of those months, when she played her disastrous Widjaja match at the US Open. Did injury cause her to play that way? And how about this week? Was that meltdown an injury aftereffect too? Come on.

Justine turned pro 3 years later than AK did, in 1999. (She beat AK later that year, in her 7th pro tournament). Justine missed several months in her 2nd year, 2000, due to injury, but she bounced back and kept getting better. Part of being an athlete is being able to bounce back from injuries. Enough already with the injury excuse; it won't wash. AK & ED are just MAJOR HEADCASES! Can you handle the truth? ;)

But here is GOOD news:

Last year at this time, it looked like ALL the Russian girls might fall into the headcase camp. Who can forget how we despaired on and on about that evil Russian Curse! :o

But just a few months later, a whole crop of Russians broke the "Russian Headcase" mold! Once after another, the titles rolled in. A new model for Russian players was formed. Bovina, Myskina, and the younger girls have no use for the headcase model and are forging ahead. The picture is so much brighter now!

I was never on board with AK, and last year I sadly left ED behind, too. Panova and Likhotseva belong to the old school too. MY Russian hopes lie with the players who have already shown they are not afraid to win. Now I am waiting for them to take the next big step & get to late rounds at Slams. And next year? Slam crowns! You will see! :D

the cat
Jan 19th, 2003, 12:45 AM
The only hope for Elena is if she is embarrassed by her consistently poor play! She should be! :o Maybe being embarrassed by her terrible play will somehow spur her on to make changes and become a good tennis player again.

But for Elena to blow a first round 2003 Australian Open match to Barbara Schwartz, an inconsistent and mentally fragile player, is a terrible sign for Elena! :eek:

And 21 is practically middle age in women's tennis! :eek: So Elena's chance to fulfill her potential and win a grand slam title, or even a tier 1 title may have already passed her by.

Dementieva fans can only hope that Elena gets motivated by all of these good young Russian girls on the WTA Tour. Maybe the fear of being embarrassed on the court by young Russian girls will push Elena to become a hungry player again! :D We can only hope!

Udachi Elena! :bounce:

tenn_ace
Jan 19th, 2003, 01:02 AM
and as always I was right all along: part time coach (even Western and accomplished) wouldn't do much for her... Lena is wasting her career by not hiring a full time coach and rededicating herself to tennis. :sad:

TheBoiledEgg
Jan 19th, 2003, 02:25 AM
Elena's running out of gas in the 3rd sets, that seems to be major letdown, her serve goes to pieces (even more) in the final sets.

She's lost her last 9 three setters dating back to Rosmalen, just before Wimbledon.

Now its getting to her mentally, as soon as she hits set 3 she starts to panic.

What Elena needs is to find a way to win a 3 setter just to restore her belief

AKTW
Jan 19th, 2003, 05:31 AM
...When will Elena really come back?:confused:

auntie janie
Jan 19th, 2003, 03:05 PM
I don't know. It's a downward spiral. And Elena now falls out of the top 20, and so will be seeded less often, etc etc. And now their mental fears and crises of confidence seem to be affecting both Elena and Anna in doubles, too, where they were both shining so recently.

the cat
Jan 19th, 2003, 08:45 PM
So, Elena D. has lost 9 straight 3 set matches. That's terrible! Unfortunately that proves she doesn't have the fighters heart we used to think she had! :(

ys
Jan 21st, 2003, 05:36 AM
I am still convinced that problem is rather mental. I mean, you do not play with your arm or legs, you play by your brain - that is brain who sends commands about how to hit and where to run. Do you really think that her serve problems are purely technical? Do you really think that a professional tennis player of 5'11 height can hit the serve into the service line of her own halfcourt because of lack of technical skills? Nope, her brain is messed up by lack of confidence, and it sends very confisuing signals to her limbs..

tenn_ace
Jan 21st, 2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by ys
I am still convinced that problem is rather mental. I mean, you do not play with your arm or legs, you play by your brain - that is brain who sends commands about how to hit and where to run. Do you really think that her serve problems are purely technical? Do you really think that a professional tennis player of 5'11 height can hit the serve into the service line of her own halfcourt because of lack of technical skills? Nope, her brain is messed up by lack of confidence, and it sends very confisuing signals to her limbs..


very very true... When I’m hitting with my coach I could generate any pace topspin, good angels and am very aggressive… but when I play matches I am afraid of taking a risk and, as a result, my game is very defensive… it hurts me - I understand - but a lack of confidence (afraid of making an ue) doesn’t let me to change that

ys
Apr 3rd, 2004, 08:40 PM
Our BUMP thread of the week.. :)

the cat
Apr 3rd, 2004, 09:31 PM
Most female tennis players are overrated as top ten players. Jelena Dokic and Daniela Hantuchova are prime examples of that. What worries me about Elena Dementieva is that her serve has actually gooten worse instead of getting better since Elena started working woth olga Morozova last December. I just hope Elena got a little nervous seeing the very imposing Serena Williams in her Wonder Woman outfit on the other side of the net :eek: and that's why her serve was so bad and why she missed so badly off the ground. I have never seen Elena's ground strokes miss by so much. I felt very badly for Elena at the end of the match. She let her service woes negatively affect the rest of her game and she usually doesn't do that.

As for the top 10, Elena is a solid top 10 player with a chance to make the top 5 if she can improve her horrendous service technique. But I am worried that Elena has damaged her right arm and right shoulder by having an arm serve. It's time for someone to teach Elena a proper service technique where she bends her knees and gets her body into the serve. I have never seen a woman with such strong legs get so little body into her serve. It's time for her to make some changes on her serve. Even if Elena has to take a couple months off from the tour to work on her serve she should do it. Her career and the health of her right arm and right shoulder are at stake.

And at this point is Shamil Tarpischev having second thoughts including Elena Dementieva on the Russian Fed Cup and Olympic teams with the tremendous service problems she has? Tarpischev has to wonder if he can count on Elena anymore with the service problems she has. He might be thinking that he can't put Elena in big singles matches anymore because her weak serve will crumble in a tight spot. And I can't blame him if he is thinking that. Maybe the prospect of losing her spot on the Fed Cup and Olympic team will force Elena to take the time to work on her serve. But first things first. Elena has to want to take the time to work on her serve and rebuild her serve with a new and improved service technique.

- L i n a -
Apr 3rd, 2004, 09:38 PM
Olga is trying to teach her, but you can't teach if someone does not want to learn.

However, I think it's silly to keep Lena off the Olympic team because of her serve... every Russian player has glaring weaknesses.

the cat
Apr 3rd, 2004, 09:50 PM
Really EV, every Russian player has glaring weaknesses? I disagree. What are Maria Sharapova's glaring weaknesses? First serve? No. Second serve? No. Forehand? No. Backhand? No. Overhead? No. Quickness? Yes. But that's it.

As far as Elena Dementieva goes she had better want to change her serve or she could suffer some serious arm and shoulder problems.

goldenlox
Apr 3rd, 2004, 10:15 PM
All this panic, and this was one of Elena's best weeks. A Tier I final, $210,000, and she beat Venus and Nadia.
If she is trying to change her serve, that explains the lack of consistency. And lack of confidence on a bad serving day.

- L i n a -
Apr 3rd, 2004, 10:19 PM
Masha? Poor shot selection, and poor movement. Those are weaknesses.

Lena just got to the final of Miami... and her serve problem has been around forever.

It doesn't matter how you get results... as long as you get them.

ys
Apr 3rd, 2004, 11:54 PM
All this panic, and this was one of Elena's best weeks..
All this panic? :lol: The thread is two years old..:)

goldenlox
Apr 3rd, 2004, 11:57 PM
Why dig it up? Elena is at a career high. She just had a great week. And she lost to a player who might go undefeated on hardcourt this year.

IIOoIaMaGirLoOII
Apr 3rd, 2004, 11:58 PM
Really EV, every Russian player has glaring weaknesses? I disagree. What are Maria Sharapova's galring weaknesses? First serve? No. Second serve? No. Forehand? No. Backhand? No. Overhead? No. Quickness? Yes. But that's it.

As far as Elena Dementieva goes she had better want to change her serve or she could suffer some serious arm and shoulder problems.her movement.. lindsay's movement is poor but she has solid groundies.. :) masha's forehand is too erratic..

goldenlox
Apr 4th, 2004, 12:01 AM
I think Elena just needs to get her serve in. Not make it a weapon. Start the point the way Nastya does.

ys
Apr 4th, 2004, 12:01 AM
Why dig it up? Just for fun. And to see how far has Elena gone since those times..

moo_ont
Apr 4th, 2004, 12:06 AM
I think Elena just needs to get her serve in. Not make it a weapon. Start the point the way Nastya does.
Perhaps, she can do that with other players like Venus, Nadia, or even Justine. That's why she won. However, she can't do that with Serena. Serena's return pressured her much more than others, I guess.

goldenlox
Apr 4th, 2004, 12:17 AM
Serena's going to beat everybody. Elena can beat everyone else.

moo_ont
Apr 4th, 2004, 09:36 PM
Just for fun. And to see how far has Elena gone since those times..
And, I am sure she can go further. :clap2:

the cat
Apr 4th, 2004, 09:57 PM
Leenah, Elena's serve is getting worse. She did not have these service problems in 2000. If she doesn't correct her serve then her serving problems could mentally break Elena because that's all anyone will talk about where her game is concerned. I just watched a couple of Elena's matches at the 2000 U.S. Open. And while her second serve was light then it wasn't nearly the double fault problem it is now. And speaking of light, Elena was about 10 pounds lighter then, too. I don't think she's as quick as she once was because she started weight training. I hope Olga Morozova can help Elena and her serve but I have my doubts becaus ethey've been working together for 4 months and Elena's serve is getting worse. Elena has the best physique of any female Russian tennis player I have ever seen. :D And she is a very good tennis player. :) But unless she can improve her serve to the point of making it a reliable serve then Elena will never become an elite tennis play the way Kim Clijsters is. Elena is every bit the great athlete Clijsters is and she even has more power off the ground. The sky is the limit for Elena. But her serve is keeping Elena from reaching her greatest height as a tennis player. :(

Maria Sharapova lacks quickness and I've pointed that out. But her long reach and ability to hit winners from all parts of the court help make up for her lack of quickness.

goldenlox
Apr 4th, 2004, 10:04 PM
Elena had 3 aces and 57 double faults in Miami. Yet she had a great week. I don't understand why she cannot get the ball in play.
Weekend players get their serve in play.

moo_ont
Apr 4th, 2004, 10:09 PM
Elena had 3 aces and 57 double faults in Miami. Yet she had a great week. I don't understand why she cannot get the ball in play.
Weekend players get their serve in play.
I don't have knowledge on tennis, but I guess she doesn't wanna slice it anymore. I noticed that when she was playing both Venus and Serana. When she committed DFs, she didn't slice it. But, when she did, it was attacked.

goldenlox
Apr 4th, 2004, 10:14 PM
I still didn't see the Nadia match. She must have served better there than in the final. I'll take another look at her service in the Venus match.
This was a great result for Elena. Forget the score of the final, and this was one of her best weeks ever.

moo_ont
Apr 4th, 2004, 10:23 PM
Yes, she had just 5 DFs when she played Nadia with 1 ace. She must play well in that match. I think she tanked in the Final cuz she just ran out of gas. When I knew she had a day off, I didn't like it. When she played AI, she had a tough match with Justine, and she could manage to win in the Final next day. She could keep up her great form then, but here she has a day off. She said she would take some rest. She had to pay twice as much as Serena.

goldenlox
Apr 4th, 2004, 10:27 PM
I think she might have been mentally tired. The Venus match was long and close. Then she needed to beat Nadia to help her Olympic chances.
Then she has to play Serena. I think Lena had trouble staying focused. We'll see what happena in AI. Elena obviously likes this surface.

moo_ont
Apr 4th, 2004, 10:32 PM
Agreed. This week she played 6 matches. It's hard to stay focused cuz it's her first tournament after a break.

GL, do you know how many Russian players will be selected to play singles in Olympics? Does Elena still have chances?

goldenlox
Apr 5th, 2004, 03:54 AM
Elena is #6 in the world. If she stays healthy, she will be in Athens, trying to win another Olympic medal.

bubble
Apr 5th, 2004, 05:49 AM
Like ys has mentioned, for the fun of it, Elena has proved us wrong by not being an overrated top tenner... :)

She has already reached #6 with her weak serve and think of this, if she improves her serve, even No. 1 can be a realistic goal for her as her ground game is basically right up there and she is mentally tough.

Now that she has a goal and a coach to help her to close the weakness gap , we just have to be patient and see how she will go on from now. Elena's main goal this year is the Olympics... She still have some time to work on her serve :angel:

the cat
Apr 8th, 2004, 01:18 AM
Well said bubble. You make good points about Elena deserving to be a top 10 player. :) But this hip injury could really be a setback to her. :(