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View Full Version : Why Is It Widely Accepted That Venus Will Be The One To Next Beat Serena?


AjdeNate!
Mar 23rd, 2003, 01:29 PM
It seems so accepted that Venus is the only one with a chance to beat Serena. When it's proposed that Jennifer has a shot, a lot of posters get very defensive and the common criticism is that "Serena dominates Jennifer" now.

V/S Head to head:
1998-01-19 Australian Open Hardcourt R64 Venus Williams (USA) 7-6(4) 6-1
1998-05-04 Rome Clay QF Venus Williams (USA) 6-4 6-2
1999-03-15 Key Biscayne Hardcourt F Venus Williams (USA) 6-1 4-6 6-4
1999-09-27 Munich Indoor Carpet F Serena Williams (USA) 6-1 3-6 6-3
2000-06-26 Wimbledon Grass SF Venus Williams (USA) 6-2 7-6(3)
2001-08-27 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Venus Williams (USA) 6-2 6-4
2002-03-18 Miami Hardcourt SF Serena Williams (USA) 6-2 6-2
2002-05-27 Roland Garros Clay F Serena Williams (USA) 7-5 6-3
2002-06-24 Wimbledon Grass F Serena Williams (USA) 7-6(4) 6-3
2002-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Serena Williams (USA) 6-4 6-3
2003-01-13 Australian Open Hardcourt F Serena Williams (USA) 7-6(4) 3-6 6-4

The last time Venus actually beat Serena was August 2001. In fact, she's only been able to get 1 set from her in the last year and half.

Jen/Serena Head to head:
1999-05-10 Berlin Clay R32 Serena Williams (USA) 7-6(3) 6-3
2000-03-20 Miami Hardcourt R16 Jennifer Capriati (USA) 7-6(2) 1-6 6-3
2001-03-19 Miami Hardcourt QF Jennifer Capriati (USA) 6-1 7-6(5)
2001-05-28 Roland Garros Clay QF Jennifer Capriati (USA) 6-2 5-7 6-2
2001-06-25 Wimbledon Grass QF Jennifer Capriati (USA) 6-7(4) 7-5 6-3
2001-08-13 Toronto Hardcourt F Serena Williams (USA) 6-1 6-7(7) 6-3
2002-02-25 Scottsdale Hardcourt F Serena Williams (USA) 6-2 4-6 6-4
2002-03-18 Miami Hardcourt F Serena Williams (USA) 7-5 7-6(4)
2002-05-13 Rome Clay SF Serena Williams (USA) 6-2 3-6 7-5
2002-05-27 Roland Garros Clay SF Serena Williams (USA) 3-6 7-6(2) 6-2
2002-11-04 WTA Championships Indoor Hardcourt SF Serena Williams (USA) 2-6 6-4 6-4

Here we see that Jen has not beaten Serena since June of 2001, however has taken 5 sets off of her in the same timeframe that Venus has only taken 1 off of Serena.

So, Venus has the more 'recent' win over Serena (if you consider 19 months to be recent), but Jennifer almost always is in a 3rd set with Serena, where Venus rarely is.

Not that it's likely to happen anytime soon (as Serena is miles ahead of anybody else on tour now - and playing brilliant tennis), but why is it more widely accepted that Venus is "the only real threat" to Serena? I'm not saying that it's only up to Jennifer to do it - I think the Belgians have a say here, but it just seems that I continually read threads over and over and over again about how Serena dominates Jennifer and that's not a rivalry, and in the same time see that quite a lot of posters think that Venus is just steps behind upsetting Serena, that the V/S rivalry is engaging, etc.

GoGoMaggie
Mar 23rd, 2003, 01:38 PM
It's simple. Many of the Williams fans rarely say anything negative about either of the sisters.
Basically most of the people who get upset when they hear a non-Venus player can challenge Serena are Williams fans.

ptkten
Mar 23rd, 2003, 01:56 PM
because Venus is #2 and Jennifer is #6 in the rankings.

Dava
Mar 23rd, 2003, 01:57 PM
If you count Kim as already beating Serena from WTA Champs I think the next one will either be Jen, Venus or Jelena. Jelena may seem a suprise to some but she was very close at Wta Champs, and then got a lsight injury ( you could see she could not move right).

I also feel Lindsay has a shot, as long as she remains the dominat player, as her movement is not strong enough to beat Rena.

Experimentee
Mar 23rd, 2003, 02:06 PM
Because Venus has the game and if she just improves her second serve she'll be able to beat Serena. Since she has the game to dominate the rest of the tour she obviously has the potential to beat Serena too. Not that i want it to happen, but Venus does have a good chance at beating Serena whether you like it or not.

Volcana
Mar 23rd, 2003, 02:40 PM
Because Venus is the only player on the tour who runs as fast as Serena AND hits as hard as Serena AND can rival Serena's first serve AND can return Serena's serve for winners AND has beaten her often in the past AND can hit winners past Serena.

venusfan
Mar 23rd, 2003, 02:48 PM
Venus would be dominating Serena now if she were to fix her 2nd serve.

Dava
Mar 23rd, 2003, 02:50 PM
Venus would be dominating Serena now if she were to fix her 2nd serve.

Well I would'nt go that far, but in the AO final (Serena did not play at all well) I think she would have won if it were not for her second serve.

SJW
Mar 23rd, 2003, 02:55 PM
because Venus fans are something else! :rolleyes: ;)

Becool
Mar 23rd, 2003, 03:00 PM
I don't know why, since both games are very similar, and Serena's serve are better than Venus, except first one, where Venus hits and doesn't even know where the ball is going.. simple..

If you think in the past, when Venus used to dominate Serena, Venus was playing well, with second serves and everything? Do you think Serena used to play well too? Do you really think so? Serena used to play very bad against Venus. No surprises for her victory. We actually never saw a match between them where both of them were 100% in form and healthy..

And I think we'll never see it, cause either sister will feel the resposability of playing the other, so it's likely impossible. I think if the only problem is Venus' second serve, I don't think the difference is that enormous. Just play with the first serve, and Venus is OK.. And even so, she didn't manage to win a match since 2001..

And Jelena to defeat Serena? Be serious! Jelena can play well for a set. Then on the next two, she'll fall as Iraq's bombs.. Don't expect Jelena to beat Serena.. To beat Serena u have to have a variety of shots! And Jelena certainly doesn't have that.. She just hits the ball hard.. And hits the ball hard.. Is that possible? obviously no! Risk her off the list

SJW
Mar 23rd, 2003, 03:02 PM
Venus would be dominating Serena now if she were to fix her 2nd serve.

see what i mean! :rolleyes:

and Clijsters would if she won her match points, right?! :confused:

right ;)

venusfan
Mar 23rd, 2003, 03:35 PM
To me Clijster is still at least a tier below the Williames so I don't really count her much.

selesfan
Mar 23rd, 2003, 03:38 PM
Because most Venus fans think Venus is a better player than Serena, I don't agree, I feel Serena is the better player of the two.

Gallofa
Mar 23rd, 2003, 03:46 PM
I don't know Seles. To tell you the truth, I think Venus has as much of a chance to defeat her sister as do Jennifer or Kim. Or even Chanda on a good day. Venus has not defeated Serena in forever. Kim, Chanda and Patty are the ones that have more recently, I guess they are the ones I would think of if I were inclined to bet in the "who'll defeat Serena next" poll. Of course, it might be someone like Loit who gets the honors :D I hope it's someone like Loit actually.

potty
Mar 23rd, 2003, 04:17 PM
I would bet on someone that actually plays a bit differently, someone like Patty, Loit, Conchi etc of course Serena I feel can not be at her best for anyone to beat her. It is just if she is not playing well someone that gives her no rhythm in her shots will more likly have success, rather than someone who plays the same shots over and over and so letting Serena get her grove!

c2
Mar 23rd, 2003, 04:22 PM
EH? Patty defeated Serena? I missed that.. when was it? I didnt' think she'd ever come close :confused:

Ryan
Mar 23rd, 2003, 05:12 PM
EH? Patty defeated Serena? I missed that.. when was it? I didnt' think she'd ever come close :confused:


Charleston QF's of 2002.

Bezz
Mar 23rd, 2003, 05:28 PM
I think jennifer and Venus have equal shot at serena. Jennifer really hates losing to her and vice versa thats why their matches are some of the best. Venus will always have a shot serena cos she is one of the best players. I dont know how willing willaims fans would be to admit that if Hingis lost 5 times in a row to serena or venus, that if she just fixed her serve she would have won the matches. I dont think its just venus's 2nd serve that lets her down, its not that simple, its not a serving contest. Lets face it at the moment serena is really hard to beat and just cos venus can run as fast and hit as hard doesnt give her a better shot than anyone else.

I would put kim a step behind jen just cos of the tension that serena and jenn matches create. Although Kim was the last person to beat her and have her on the ropes. If she would have beaten serena in the semi's of Australian i think that would have changed everything. But she didnt.

harloo
Mar 23rd, 2003, 07:07 PM
I would bet on someone that actually plays a bit differently, someone like Patty, Loit, Conchi etc of course Serena I feel can not be at her best for anyone to beat her. It is just if she is not playing well someone that gives her no rhythm in her shots will more likly have success, rather than someone who plays the same shots over and over and so letting Serena get her grove!

Exactly potty. When you hit power for power with Rena and she is playing at her best then you will most likely not win. If you are leading it means nothing either, because it seems the closer the matches get with Rena and power players the more aggressive she gets. In the AO semis she played some of the most horrible game I saw in a long time for her, but when the chips got down she just turned into a different player which stunned Kim. Also, Serena has problems with players who rallys alot which IMO explains her trouble with Capriati. But the one weapon Rena has over Jen is her serve. She has won some close ones with her amazing serve.

Now, IMO people give some much credit to Kim beating both the Williams at the Championships but Kim didn't beat Venus at the Champs. And when they met at the Diamond Games the 6-3,6-2 beating was proof. IMO Kim is a defensive player mainly, but Venus and Serena both use defense and offense very well. So IMO that's the edge they have over Kim. Venus is the only player who IMO can really stop Serena when she's hot(meaning playing well) but if Rena is off then ANYBODY has a chance especially if she's playing against Kim who is very consistent but does not use much offense.

joao
Mar 23rd, 2003, 07:35 PM
To defeat a player you need a lot more than technical skills or serves ... If it was as simple as that then it wouldn't make any sense to make the assumption that Capriati has a better probability to beat Serena than Venus has anyway since Jennifer has actually never defeated Venus.

But the reason why people think that Venus has the best shot at being the next player to beat Serena is probably because Venus clearly dominates everybody but Serena ...

Hulet
Mar 23rd, 2003, 07:46 PM
Because it's more probable that serena would listen to Richard telling her to lose to venus than the same advice given by Stefano when she faces Jenn...

CJ07
Mar 23rd, 2003, 08:00 PM
Jen only gets the best of Serena when shes not playing well

Venus is the only player who hits as hard, runs as fast, etc. etc.

If V and Rena are both playing 80%+ Tennis, shes the only one who has a real chance of winning

BigTennisFan
Mar 23rd, 2003, 08:01 PM
I think jennifer and Venus have equal shot at serena. Jennifer really hates losing to her and vice versa thats why their matches are some of the best. Venus will always have a shot serena cos she is one of the best players. I dont know how willing willaims fans would be to admit that if Hingis lost 5 times in a row to serena or venus, that if she just fixed her serve she would have won the matches. I dont think its just venus's 2nd serve that lets her down, its not that simple, its not a serving contest. Lets face it at the moment serena is really hard to beat and just cos venus can run as fast and hit as hard doesnt give her a better shot than anyone else.

I would put kim a step behind jen just cos of the tension that serena and jenn matches create. Although Kim was the last person to beat her and have her on the ropes. If she would have beaten serena in the semi's of Australian i think that would have changed everything. But she didnt.

I think that you're on the money except for one point: "just cos venus can run as fast and hit as hard doesnt give her a better shot than anyone else."

I think that Venus' ability to run as fast and hit as hard does give her a better chance than anyone else.

anton
Mar 23rd, 2003, 08:33 PM
Venus was injured in some of the 5 losses to serena. look at the melbourne match.

luv ya serena, but ya goin'

D


O


W

N!!! :wavey:

SerenaSlam
Mar 23rd, 2003, 08:40 PM
It seems so accepted that Venus is the only one with a chance to beat Serena. When it's proposed that Jennifer has a shot, a lot of posters get very defensive and the common criticism is that "Serena dominates Jennifer" now.

V/S Head to head:
1998-01-19 Australian Open Hardcourt R64 Venus Williams (USA) 7-6(4) 6-1
1998-05-04 Rome Clay QF Venus Williams (USA) 6-4 6-2
1999-03-15 Key Biscayne Hardcourt F Venus Williams (USA) 6-1 4-6 6-4
1999-09-27 Munich Indoor Carpet F Serena Williams (USA) 6-1 3-6 6-3
2000-06-26 Wimbledon Grass SF Venus Williams (USA) 6-2 7-6(3)
2001-08-27 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Venus Williams (USA) 6-2 6-4
2002-03-18 Miami Hardcourt SF Serena Williams (USA) 6-2 6-2
2002-05-27 Roland Garros Clay F Serena Williams (USA) 7-5 6-3
2002-06-24 Wimbledon Grass F Serena Williams (USA) 7-6(4) 6-3
2002-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Serena Williams (USA) 6-4 6-3
2003-01-13 Australian Open Hardcourt F Serena Williams (USA) 7-6(4) 3-6 6-4

The last time Venus actually beat Serena was August 2001. In fact, she's only been able to get 1 set from her in the last year and half.

Jen/Serena Head to head:
1999-05-10 Berlin Clay R32 Serena Williams (USA) 7-6(3) 6-3
2000-03-20 Miami Hardcourt R16 Jennifer Capriati (USA) 7-6(2) 1-6 6-3
2001-03-19 Miami Hardcourt QF Jennifer Capriati (USA) 6-1 7-6(5)
2001-05-28 Roland Garros Clay QF Jennifer Capriati (USA) 6-2 5-7 6-2
2001-06-25 Wimbledon Grass QF Jennifer Capriati (USA) 6-7(4) 7-5 6-3
2001-08-13 Toronto Hardcourt F Serena Williams (USA) 6-1 6-7(7) 6-3
2002-02-25 Scottsdale Hardcourt F Serena Williams (USA) 6-2 4-6 6-4
2002-03-18 Miami Hardcourt F Serena Williams (USA) 7-5 7-6(4)
2002-05-13 Rome Clay SF Serena Williams (USA) 6-2 3-6 7-5
2002-05-27 Roland Garros Clay SF Serena Williams (USA) 3-6 7-6(2) 6-2
2002-11-04 WTA Championships Indoor Hardcourt SF Serena Williams (USA) 2-6 6-4 6-4

Here we see that Jen has not beaten Serena since June of 2001, however has taken 5 sets off of her in the same timeframe that Venus has only taken 1 off of Serena.

So, Venus has the more 'recent' win over Serena (if you consider 19 months to be recent), but Jennifer almost always is in a 3rd set with Serena, where Venus rarely is.

Not that it's likely to happen anytime soon (as Serena is miles ahead of anybody else on tour now - and playing brilliant tennis), but why is it more widely accepted that Venus is "the only real threat" to Serena? I'm not saying that it's only up to Jennifer to do it - I think the Belgians have a say here, but it just seems that I continually read threads over and over and over again about how Serena dominates Jennifer and that's not a rivalry, and in the same time see that quite a lot of posters think that Venus is just steps behind upsetting Serena, that the V/S rivalry is engaging, etc.
People over look how people "played" in matches, compared to the result. We all know that if Serena vs. Jen happen and Serena is actually "on" her game the entire match, Serena should cruz in straight sets w/out a doubt. Some don't want to accept this, but you have to. If you take a look at those matches Serena played against Venus, venus didn't play well at all, and serena played very well up to par, better than she has against Jennifer in all their meetings. If you take a look at Serena vs. Jennifer meetings clealry Serena hasn't been on her game and still has managed to pull the win out. You can base results on the score, but I think most people say Venus should be the next 1 to pull the upset b/c Venus is the next best. Jennifer is good, but Serena is head/shoulders over her when they both are on their game. You can have a close match w/ a lot of errors from Serena. This is why their matches are close. Most don't like to take a look at the numbers like Seles, but when you throw those numbers into play along w/ the head to heads, its clear why Venus is should be considered the next to beat Serena, not jennifer.

harloo
Mar 23rd, 2003, 09:01 PM
Venus was injured in some of the 5 losses to serena. look at the melbourne match.

luv ya serena, but ya goin'

D


O


W

N!!! :wavey:

The only match Venus was injured in was at Wimbeldon, and she had a back problem in Miami. Otherwise, Serena was just playing better. Venus would never make an excuse for losing, so all that doesn't matter to her anyways. I would hope that Venus would improve that second serve, because regardless of what anyone says I still believe that her serve against Serena is hurting her when they meet up.