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Jakeev
Mar 22nd, 2003, 10:19 AM
Don't really want a serious debate on this, but I am wondering when a player loses a big, insurmountable lead, is it always considered to be choking?

I have noticed a trend around here lately is to dub a player a choker every time she loses after leading in the match, and rarely giving the other player the credit for being able to come from behind and win the match.

Just wonder what some of you think.

Tennisfan-Mtl
Mar 22nd, 2003, 10:32 AM
I think it HAS to be a combination of both :) But in the case of Hantuchova....having a 6-1, 5-2 lead (I think) and loosing 0-6 in the 3rd set HAS to be considered choking...

irma
Mar 22nd, 2003, 10:45 AM
in my opinion when you can't close a match then you don't deserve to win except when you get injured of course!

matches don't at at 4 or 5 games!

Gowza
Mar 22nd, 2003, 11:18 AM
to me choking is if you have match point and are up say 5-1 or 5-2 in the deciding set.

plus it depends on how the player who is 'choking' is playing. if they keep doing unforced arrors and give the match away it is choking but if their opponent keeps hitting winners or forces errors and doesn't give them a chance to close it out then i personally don't consider it choking.

if you are just watching live scores and aren't seeing them play on tv or go and watch them then i don't think you can say whether they are choking or not.

irma
Mar 22nd, 2003, 11:23 AM
but hitting winners doesn't say much. when a player chokes she can start to hit less deep and give the opponent all room to hit winners.

Gowza
Mar 22nd, 2003, 11:33 AM
winners was just an example.

my point was that if the opponent of the player who is 'choking' doesn't give them a way to win then i don't consider it choking.

it is hard to tell the difference between choking and nerves and you really have to see the match to really know.

but that is my opinion. if you don't agree you don't agree. but i can see your point.

gmak
Mar 22nd, 2003, 11:33 AM
obviously daniela choke yesterday

~RedRose~
Mar 22nd, 2003, 12:15 PM
I would consider that there are 3 types of choking

A Choker - A Person who regularly chokes. EG - Justine :)
To Choke a Match - When a player is leading by at least a set and 5-2 w or w/o match points and then loses the set, and then the match. It can also occur if the player has a considerable lead in the final deciding set. - Eg - Daniella Vs Alicia
To Choke a Set - When say perhaps you are leading 5-0 or 5-1 in a set a lose it. It may not lose you the match, but forces you to play another set. If the person who choked loses the match they would have had to been down a set and then up 5-1 or wateva in the second, or up 5-? in the first. Eg - Elena D Vs Pratt

irma
Mar 22nd, 2003, 12:29 PM
I guess novotna didn't choke in wimbledon 93 then afterall she never served for the match;)

Experimentee
Mar 22nd, 2003, 12:37 PM
I think choking is when a player realises that they're close to winning and gets nervous about it. It can happen when they're 5-2 up in the final set, when they've won the first set, or even before the match when they know they're the overwhelming favourtie.
You need to watch a match to really know if a player chokes but signs of it is when they stop playing the way they have been and start playing more defensively, usually without a change in play of the other player. Sometimes the other player plays better but when the choking player stops playing aggressively its still a choke.

tennischick
Mar 22nd, 2003, 12:48 PM
i found this in another thread posted by tennisIlove09...

FULL ARTICLE HERE: http://espn.go.com/tennis/news/2003/0321/1527484.html

The slender Hantuchova, who is listed at 5-foot-11\ and 123 pounds, said she has lost weight recently because of her training regimen. That may have been a factor in the third set against Molik.


"I felt I had nothing left,'' Hantuchova said. "Anything I've eaten, it just disappeared because I was working so hard. So this is one of things we're working on now -- to get a bit stronger.''

perhaps she literally ran out of energy. that's not the same as choking.

SM
Mar 22nd, 2003, 04:18 PM
having a 6-1, 5-2 lead (I think) and loosing 0-6 in the 3rd set HAS to be considered choking...
viewed from another angle the fact dani lost 11 sttraight games proves she did not choke cos inferring from that im quite sure Alicia finished the match just too good from 2-5 down! Winning 11 straight games is pretty much a double-bagel for the 2nd half of the match :bounce:

Dava
Mar 22nd, 2003, 04:26 PM
Mostly, but then at the AO I would not say that Kim chocked against Serena!

irma
Mar 22nd, 2003, 04:30 PM
yes she did two doubles faults in a row while serving for the match at 5:3

you can't choke more then that!

Dava
Mar 22nd, 2003, 04:34 PM
I thought she served for the match at 5:2 and again at 5:4, and when she had match points I dont remember her double faulting.

irma
Mar 22nd, 2003, 04:36 PM
no she started the game with two double faults.

Dava
Mar 22nd, 2003, 04:42 PM
I was so excited I probably did not notice. I remember running around my house at 4 in the morning (I had gone to bed at 7 to be up for 2 in the morning, so I could go to college) becuase I thought Kim was going to win, but she did'nt :sad:

irma
Mar 22nd, 2003, 04:45 PM
yeah I was excited too. :sad:

propi
Mar 22nd, 2003, 05:56 PM
I guess novotna didn't choke in wimbledon 93 then afterall she never served for the match;)
but she did in RG against Rubin, what a match!!!

TeeRexx
Mar 22nd, 2003, 08:44 PM
Kim definitely choked at the AO because SERENA is great, but that not that great of a player that she can regularly come back from a 1-5 match point defecit and win the match and title.

CJ07
Mar 22nd, 2003, 10:36 PM
yeah Kim did choke
but for example when lindsay was up 6-3 3-0 against Monica and all those match points, i dont think she choked, Monica just plays her best tennis from behind

Kart
Mar 23rd, 2003, 02:13 AM
Choking to me is when a player doesn't win a match she was winning because she let go of her grip on the match. Doesn't mean the other player didn't win or deserve to win it, just that they wouldn't have won if the match continued in the same vein it started.

Novotna did not choke in Wimbledon 1993 IMHO, but she sure did at US open 1998 which was a big miss really as she would have gone to no.1 - or so I am told.

Philbo
Mar 23rd, 2003, 02:22 AM
"Choking to me is when a player doesn't win a match she was winning because she let go of her grip on the match. Doesn't mean the other player didn't win or deserve to win it, just that they wouldn't have won if the match continued in the same vein it started.

Novotna did not choke in Wimbledon 1993 IMHO, but she sure did at US open 1998 which was a big miss really as she would have gone to no.1 - or so I am told"

No disrespect intended, but this post just makes no sense at all to me...The top half, and the bottom half contradict each other...

Jana lost a close 1st set in that match, then won the 2nd 6-1, and got to 4-1 40-15 in the 3rd against Graf on serve for 5-1...Suddenly she realised she could win, and the fear of winning affected her physically (made her tighten up) and mentally...She ABSOLUTELY 'let go of her grip on the match' - she was giving Graf a grass court lesson! Then all of a sudden couldnt land a simple volley in the court...

Novotna's Wimbledon 93 performance was QUENTESSENTIAL, DEFINITIVE choking, a perfect example of it... No offense Kart, but by your own definition of choking, Jana did a wonderful job of it...I agree with your definition though!

joaco
Mar 23rd, 2003, 04:37 AM
the players are in such big pressures in those matches. They're human, it can happen. It is VERY HARD MENTALLY to close a very important match.
As said in previous replies, both sides must be seen, the player that couldn't win and the one that won.

Every single top player has chocked. Let's take a look at Serena, in 2001 she had 6 match points against Monica in the e-estyle open and she couldn't close it (had advantages of 40-0 and 0-40). But this year she made an incredible run at the AO SF and came back from a 1-5 deficit saving two match points.
Jennifer Capriati saved 4 match points against Martina in the 2001 AO, and then she couldn't close the Ericcson Open final that same year having 8 match points (!!)

So I believe that chocking shouldn't be that punished. But a choker should be critisised, mainly because you learn from your past mistakes and if you keep doing them, it's like you don't pay much attention to yourself so...

Joaco

PS: Did Martina choke at 1999 RG final? Yes, I think so. Was she a choker, no

irma
Mar 23rd, 2003, 06:55 AM
wimbledon 93 was definitely a choke, steffi was hardly able to move, it's amazing she didn't collapse during the match(as she did a few hours afterwards. to many injections and medicine to stop the pain in her foot. it's true there is a reason she was not at the wimbledon ball the next day)
novotna couldn't hit a ball in court anymore suddenly and steffi could only watch and see novotna make the mistakes.

TheBoiledEgg
Mar 23rd, 2003, 09:46 AM
Gabriela Sabatini choked vs Mary Joe Fernandez 6-1 5-1 (40-0 i think and she DF on 1st MP) in 1993 Roland Garros QF and she was never the same player again. :sad: :sad:

that match went to 1-6 7-6 10-8.

~RedRose~
Mar 23rd, 2003, 10:15 AM
Kim choked against Serena. Although Serena played great .... Kim being the No.3 in the world, should have been able to win a game .... she was nervous and she choked.

venusfan
Mar 23rd, 2003, 12:56 PM
Kim did such a Choke Job at the Australian.. She will forever be remember for that and I know players took notice.