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LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:20 AM
Rio de Janeiro- Brazil

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/rio.jpg

El Cairo, Egipt

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/cairo.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:21 AM
Tokyo - Japan

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/tokio.jpg

Taiwan

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/taiwan.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:23 AM
St. Peterburg - Boznia Herzegovina

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/sarajevo.jpg

Palestina

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/refugiadospalkestamman.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:24 AM
Quito, Ecuador

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/quito.jpg

New York, USA

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/nuevayork.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:26 AM
Montevideo, Uruguay

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/montevideo.jpg

Mexico D.F., Mexico

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/mexico.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:28 AM
Kuala Lumpur, Malasya

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/kualalumpur.jpg

Auckland, New Zealand

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/aucland.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:29 AM
Amsterdam, Nederlands

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/amsterdam.jpg

Zagreb, Croatia

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/zagreb.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:31 AM
Yakarta, Indonesia

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/yacarta.jpg

Toulouse, France

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/toulouse.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:33 AM
London, England

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/te.jpg

Stuttgart, Germany

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/stuttgart.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:35 AM
Singapore

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/singapur.jpg

Minsk, Bielorrusia

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/minsk.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:37 AM
Johanessburg, South Africa

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/johanesburgo.jpg

Hamburg, Germany

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/hamburgo.jpg

Cape Town, South Africa

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/ciudaddelcabo.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:39 AM
Canberra, Australia

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/camberra.jpg

Calcuta, India

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/calcuta.jpg

Bucarest, Romania

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/bucarest.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:41 AM
Athens, Greek

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/atenas.jpg

Kiev, Ukrain

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/ukrania.jpg

Sofia, Bulgaria

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/sofia.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:43 AM
Damasco, Siria

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/siria.jpg

Rome, Italy

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/roma.jpg

Moscos, Russia

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/moscu.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:45 AM
London, England

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/londres.jpg

Hong Kong

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/hongkong.jpg


Seoul, South Korea

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/corea.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:48 AM
Budapest, Hungary

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/budapest.jpg

Berlin, Germany

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/berlin.jpg

Belgrade, Servia

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/belgrado.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:51 AM
Bagdad, Iraq

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/bagdad.jpg

Ankara

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/ankara.jpg

Paris, France

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/paris.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:53 AM
Glasgow, England

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/glasgow.jpg

Copenaghen, Denmark

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/copenhague.jpg

Istambul, Turkey

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/estambul.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:55 AM
Beirut, Lebanon

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/beirut.jpg

Ramala, Cisjordania

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/ramala.jpg

Viena, Austria

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/viena.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:57 AM
Chipre

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/chipre.jpg

Brusselles, Belgium

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/bruselas.jpg

Dublin, Ireland

http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/dublin.jpg

LucasArg
Feb 18th, 2003, 06:07 AM
Buenos Aires, Argentina

http://old.clarin.com/diario/2003/02/16/fotos/t031dh03.jpg :D

Miranda
Feb 18th, 2003, 06:36 AM
yes no war please :angel: :worship:

BasicTennis
Feb 18th, 2003, 06:46 AM
Disarm now Saddam....you too could stop this war!!!!:mad:

Lynx
Feb 18th, 2003, 07:57 AM
1) you're assuming he has weapons he shouldn't have:
There is no proof of that. If any, proof suggests he has NO "weapons of mass destruction" (we all know who has, and who is prepared to use them). Saying he has to prove that he hasn't got them is really scary. It is impossible to prove you don't have something. If you don't believe that you should try it one day.

2) you insist he can stop the war:
No he can't. Only the aggressor can stop a war. Do you think Poland or Belgium or France could have stopped the second World War?

• • •
The strongest bully doesn't have to listen to the weaker kids, of course. And he probably won't.
But later, having lost all friends and only gained some ass-kissers, he might deeply regret that...

Look at what is happening everywhere. Just look. Don't pay attention to the (orchestrated) demonstrations in Bagdad. Do pay attention to the fact that in many cities all over the world more ppl have hit the streets to demonstrate against this coming war than ever before.

It - should - give - anybody - pause.

caramel
Feb 18th, 2003, 08:03 AM
Yeah come on!!! Make tea , not war!!! LOL :cool: I love this slogan! :bounce:

Nicoleke
Feb 18th, 2003, 04:25 PM
Peace !!!!!

Kiwi_Boy
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:52 PM
auckland,NEW ZEALAND,lucas! ;) :)

Lynx :kiss: :D

.....iraq is not the real threat to this world.

spiceboy
Feb 18th, 2003, 06:11 PM
Where are Barcelona & Madrid the biggest after Rome & London???

ttaM
Feb 18th, 2003, 06:32 PM
http://www.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/02/internacional/paz/album1/imagenes/beirut.jpg

This man seems more worried about Saddam than the Iraqi citizens. :rolleyes:

Bероника
Feb 18th, 2003, 06:41 PM
Great thread,thanks Lucas!!!!


NO A LA GUERRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ttaM
Feb 18th, 2003, 06:53 PM
2) you insist he can stop the war:
No he can't.

Not true.

Arab leaders, the UN, and even the US have told Saddam to step down from power to avoid a war. Of course he won't, but the opportunity has been presented to him, and he has chosen to ignore it.

Shane54
Feb 18th, 2003, 07:13 PM
To all you anti war protesters:

Do you think Hussein should stay as leader of Iraq?
If so, do you have the same admiration for Hitler?

And don't be so naive to think this about "oil", b/c if you do then you are blind to the facts as some were about Hitler in WWII

Rock on!! Kick some ass!
War on Iraq-F**k yeah!

seabiscuit
Feb 18th, 2003, 07:43 PM
answer: no, in the ideal world...and a question to you: Do you think Pyongyang should stay as the leader in N. Korea? And if yes, do you have the same admiration for Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao?

Crazy Canuck
Feb 18th, 2003, 09:10 PM
Arab leaders, the UN, and even the US have told Saddam to step down from power to avoid a war. Of course he won't, but the opportunity has been presented to him, and he has chosen to ignore it.

You make that sound like such a simple solution.. Put yourself in their shoes. How would you like it if somebody decided one day that they were going to attack your country if your leader didn't step down? Somebody who has no business (well, not morally anyhow) in your politics just stepping in and saying "alright guys, we dont' like how you run things over here, so step down or your civillians will pay". And yes, it will be the civillians who pay, what the hell else do you suppose happens when you bomb a city?


Rock on!! Kick some ass!
War on Iraq-F**k yeah!

Shane54, I sincerely hope that your idiotic message is not shared with the majority of Americans. Rock on? Kick some ass? Gee I hope that somebody blows the fucking shit out of you and your family too, not to mention any children you might happen to hold dear. Gee, Rock on! Wouldn't that be awesome?

I have no problem with people who are pro war and have demonstrated some sort of understanding as to what is going on, but I ahve no respect for the options of somebody who actually states cheers like you have.

Absolutely disgusting. I would expect more from a 12 year old.

Crazy Canuck
Feb 18th, 2003, 09:12 PM
Go Monica, another thing -

If all the USA wants is Sadaam to step down (because apparently that is officially now their juristiction?), then why the fuck are they going in there looking for weapons that may or may not exist? Why waste the time? If they don't need an "excuse" and this is their entire reason (absolute and total bullshit, btw), then why are they making such a run around of it?

ys
Feb 18th, 2003, 09:21 PM
If all the USA wants is Sadaam to step down (because apparently that is officially now their juristiction?), then why the fuck are they going in there looking for weapons that may or may not exist? Why waste the time? If they don't need an "excuse" and this is their entire reason (absolute and total bullshit, btw), then why are they making such a run around of it?

Becca, are you just pretending? Or do you really have no clue on what you are talking about?

seabiscuit
Feb 18th, 2003, 09:59 PM
i don't care what or how many UN resolutions Saddam broke with any such weapons...such should be no justification for going to war unless our leaders want to sacrifice America's interests to that of a global socialist organization...dammit where is James Madison when you need him

ttaM
Feb 18th, 2003, 10:38 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fopinion%2F2003%2F02%2F17%2Fdo170 1.xml&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=320722


If this was a peace march, why did Saddam get no stick?
By Barbara Amiel
(Filed: 17/02/2003)


The most revealing aspect of the anti-war march in London was what you did not see. You did not see any messages to Saddam Hussein or criticism of Iraqi policy.

These earnest seekers of peace, with so many signs denouncing George W Bush and Tony Blair, had nothing to say to Saddam Hussein; no request to please co-operate with the UN inspectors. Not one small poster asking Saddam to disarm or destroy his weapons of mass destruction. Perhaps somewhere in that million people there were some bravely asking him to "Leave Iraq and prevent war", but I could not find them.

If this were a genuine anti-war demonstration, why, along with demands on the British and Americans, would there be no demands of the other party to the conflict - Iraq? Commentators on the march were taken by the good order of it. I was taken by the sheer wickedness or naivete.

All those nice middle-aged people from middle England with their children bundled up against the cold, marching for peace; did they have nothing to say to the party that had ignored 17 UN resolutions? A similar silence existed in all the anti-war marches in Europe. One either has to question the good faith of the marchers - or their brains.

Television gave us brief interviews with "ordinary" people marching. ITV's Mrs Noon on the peace train from Stockport had never marched before, but she had work experience dealing with "challenging" children and adults, which she compared with dealing with Saddam. "The first rule," she said, "is to be non-confrontational." The TV cameras cut to the "----ing Bush" and "Stuff Your Imperialism" signs stacked in the train compartment.

A colleague I met at the march said he had counted only two or three anti-Israeli signs. "Torture, Murder, Ethnic Cleansing!!! Welcome to Israel" was the wording of a large banner from the Muslim Association of Great Britain, but that was to be expected. The MAB, co-organiser of the London march, has a number of ideological and personal links with the Muslim Brotherhood, the oldest Islamist organisation, four of whose members assassinated Anwar Sadat and whose offshoot is Hamas.

In fact, there were hundreds of anti-Israeli signs. What disguised this was the activities of the Jewish establishment. The Board of Deputies of British Jews, well-meaning but dreadfully inept, had worried about all the hate signs against Israel in the last "peace" march. Not understanding that it is best not to help your enemy disguise itself, they had written to the Committee for Nuclear Disarmament asking it about its relationship with anti-Israel groups.

The Deputies were reassured to receive a letter promising them that CND was "working hard to ensure that this march would be free from inappropriate slogans and chants". The result was that apart from a few "Boycott Israel/Boycott Murder" banners, the MAB restrained itself to hundreds of posters with the coded anti-Israel message: "Freedom for Palestine".

Freedom for Palestine, of course, could come the day the Arab world accepts the existence of a Jewish state. There could have been an independent Palestinian state as early as the Peel Commission in 1937 or the UN partition plan in 1948, if only the Arabs had said yes to co-existence with Israel. But anyone who has read the literature of the MAB knows that now, as then, "Palestinian freedom" for the MAB is achieved only at the expense of eliminating a Jewish state in the Middle East. All that the complaints of the British Board of Deputies had done was to make the MAB respectable to the ignorant.

In the end, under the guise of peace, this march was essentially an anti-America, anti-free enterprise, anti-Israel display. A similar approach appeared to have taken hold in the various other "peace" marches in Tokyo, Athens, Paris, Berlin and Madrid.

Looking at the news clips of jubilant Europeans marching behind banners saying "Death to Uncle Sam" shows how much the zeitgeist towards America has changed. I can remember the good-natured humour of the film The Mouse That Roared. America was seen then as the generous saviour of Europe and the welcomed guarantor of freedom. In that 1959 film, a Ruritanian prime minister, played by Peter Sellers, declared war on the United States in order to get American aid. These days the mouse roars to scare or blackmail America.

The spirit towards Israel was different in those times too. After defeating the Arabs in the 1967 six-day war, Israel was seen as an incredible success story by virtually all observers - intellectually, morally and practically. The country was the recreation of a lost state, made all the more credible by its unique parentage - a democratic decision of the world through a UN vote.

One didn't have to be a Zionist in 1967 to list Israel's achievements. That small nation had revived a dead language for the first time in history, absorbed a million and a half people from both Europe and the Orient in 19 years and had made the desert fertile. It had no oil, its waters were insufficient and vulnerable to Arab diversion, and it had never had one day of peace.

Within five hours of its birth, it faced declarations of war by all its Arab neighbours. With no military background or weaponry to speak of, and facing the British-trained Jordanian army among others, it had defeated its enemies in 1948, 1956 and again in 1967. Israel was a classic success story.

Up to 1967, the Jews gave the impression of being the underdog against impossible odds, and the winner. Both those components are attractive to people and to nations. But the sheer weight of size and demographics on the Arab side and the willingness of Arabs to employ terrorism in the West began to eat away at this perception. Gradually, the tables turned. The sense that in the long run the Arabs would prevail gathered steam. It became the Arabs' turn to be carried on the double wings of underdog and winner status.

Israel is now seen as a surrogate for the United States and so destroying it has the added thrill of throwing sand in America's face. For centuries, the Arab world has faced the humiliation of punching below its weight. Given the value in its culture of the romantic masculine virtues of martial prowess and dominance, this realisation that its culture is regarded as backward and insignificant has created much resentment.

The Islamists have come along with the message that, if Islam's large population and wealth could be fused with its mystical fundamentalism, they would create the same fanatical strength that made rising empires from Christendom to Japan pre-eminent. In this climate, America and Israel are viewed as obstacles to an Arab renaissance.

Laying out the world's changing attitudes to Israel and America so barely, makes it sound like a conscious decision - which is absurd. But changes in the spirit of the times are as difficult to explain as those immense flocks of birds you see sitting on some great African lake, hundreds of thousands of them at a time, till all of a sudden, successively, they fly up and turn in a specific direction. One can never analyse which bird started it and how it became this incredible rush. All you see is the result.

One senses that the Islamists, with a billion Muslims in the world, and access to great riches (with some partial success in Iran and Afghanistan, where they defeated the Soviets, albeit with American help), now feel that they may be able to reassert themselves - and the Caliphate.

The world waits, unsure what to do as Muslims hesitate, poised on vast lakes of oil, ready to fly in some direction. The world hedges its bets by backing the Palestinians, who may benefit by any resurgence of Islam.

And one of the reasons many people sense how important it is for America and her allies to be successful against the regime of Saddam Hussein - quite apart from all other valid reasons - is that a perception that the side with the momentum, the winning side, is the Islamist-terrorist side, must be broken.

It is a dangerous and self-fulfilling prophecy that can cause untold bloodshed and tyranny in the world. There are infinitely better, more tolerant, less bloody ways forward for the Arab people. But the West is not yet a paper tiger, even if nearly one million of its inhabitants meekly followed behind those meretricious paper slogans held high in Hyde Park on Saturday afternoon.

Osssge
Feb 18th, 2003, 10:56 PM
What the poor little idiot Bush can't get, what his little birdy brain can't make out is that the more he asks for a bloody war on Iraq, the more people love that insane dictator called Saddam Hussein. He cannot see that people began to adore and worship Saddam after this warmongering has started. Bush has just opened up a huge era in our world: Terror. He does not understand that this war will create more and more terrorists, and they will ALL aim at America.

What I cannot get is why is it so difficult for them to remove Saddam without a war. I mean, they have all the secret service stuff in their hands, and they cannot just get that madman without harming the poor innocent Iraqi babies?? Is it that hard?
Or do they just want to see blood? That animal instinct of mankind... Never goes away, does it??? If the Americans do not want war unlike their president, why do they not protest by not going to Iraq? Why don't the American soldiers refuse to fight, give up arms or do they also want blood? Every single man on earth has a right to live. If we are all equal, then they can all come against their president and their generals, whatever. By going to Iraq, American soldiers prove only one thing to me: THEY ARE SLAVES of BUSH. It proves that mankind lives being herded and do what they are told.

I wish Americans could say FAREWELL to ARMS before they ask the same from others.....

Fingon
Feb 19th, 2003, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by seabiscuit
answer: no, in the ideal world...and a question to you: Do you think Pyongyang should stay as the leader in N. Korea? And if yes, do you have the same admiration for Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao?

No, I think Pyongyang should only stay as the capital of North Korea :p

Kiwi_Boy
Feb 19th, 2003, 01:24 AM
my message for those who are "pro-war" (a.k.a. "wartards")
If you honestly feel that iraq is an iminant threat to the peace of your nation etc and want to "kick their asses" or take their oil how ever you may justify it to yourself then enough of this talk.if you can talk the talk its time for YOU to walk the walk,haul your arsses away from this computer screen and inlist in the us military for a role in iraq and go fight for somthing you apparantly believe in instead of sending thousands of your compatriots to die and them to bring death upon thousands of innocents.grow some balls and D.I.Y .if you believe that a war at "this time" is moral and just then let it personally be you who partakes in it and on it be your concience......otherwise,well your either just being an idiot for arguments sake or have compleate lack of moral values and have no place in this world or your a pussy/coward/wuss/copout etc.

If you believe a war on iraq now with no real basis and no morality what so ever is right go and fight it insead of talking like testostorone filled morons.

(any pro war posters in the military,sorry,then i may not agree with your choice/beliefs but i respect you for fighting for what you believe in,its not gonna be me carrying war guilt and horrid mental seens around with me until i die-war's not fun and games like it is on the big screen actual people like you and i,on all sides have their lives,all that they have acheived in their lives extinguished forever,ofen without even a say in the matter.)

Fingon
Feb 19th, 2003, 01:26 AM
Go Monica,

that article is spot on, that's what gives the organizers less credibility, they seem to oppose to anything the US or the UK do, no matter what.

I didn't see any demonstrations to stop terrorirsm did I?

I didn't see any demonstrations against Bin Laden did I?

why the double standard?.

I always remember to see a leftist group protesting in Toronto, they were supporting anything that is against the US, no matter what.

Of course the people in the streets were honest (most of them anyways), it's easy to say no to war, any rational person would oppose to war, however...

The same line of thought brougth WWII, because the western powers didn't want to deal with Hitler, they preferred to ignore him, to negotiate, to turn a blind eye until it was too late.

Somebody said that France couldn't have stopped WWII, wrong, they could, they chose not to, I can't blame them, war is not a nice perspective but in the 30s, France, and the UK, and the United States made bad decisions and that costed 50 million lives.

In the early 80s, Israel striked an iraqi nuclear facility, that was going to produce nuclear weapons, the entire world condemned the strike, but to the light of what happened later, we know now we should be thankful they did that.

Absolute truth is not absolute and is not truth, sentences like "the worst peace is better than the best war" are beautiful, and very adequate for a speech, but not always true, as history shows, peace would be possible if all the parties were committed to it, but that never happened, and will never happen, somebody would try to take advantage.

Sam L
Feb 19th, 2003, 01:27 AM
Good point Kiwi Boy, you should post that as a thread.

Really, if you support the war so much, go fight!

Fingon
Feb 19th, 2003, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by Kiwi_Boy
my message for those who are "pro-war" (a.k.a. "wartards")
If you honestly feel that iraq is an iminant threat to the peace of your nation etc and want to "kick their asses" or take their oil how ever you may justify it to yourself then enough of this talk.if you can talk the talk its time for YOU to walk the walk,haul your arsses away from this computer screen and inlist in the us military for a role in iraq and go fight for somthing you apparantly believe in instead of sending thousands of your compatriots to die and them to bring death upon thousands of innocents.grow some balls and D.I.Y .if you believe that a war at "this time" is moral and just then let it personally be you who partakes in it and on it be your concience......otherwise,well your either just being an idiot for arguments sake or have compleate lack of moral values and have no place in this world or your a pussy/coward/wuss/copout etc.

If you believe a war on iraq now with no real basis and no morality what so ever is right go and fight it insead of talking like testostorone filled morons.

(any pro war posters in the military,sorry,then i may not agree with your choice/beliefs but i respect you for fighting for what you believe in,its not gonna be me carrying war guilt and horrid mental seens around with me until i die-war's not fun and games like it is on the big screen actual people like you and i,on all sides have their lives,all that they have acheived in their lives extinguished forever,ofen without even a say in the matter.)

That's an easy argument to expose, sounds good, but it's simply wrong.

What are anyone's wishes, fears, convictions, have nothing to do.

You may not want to give your life for a cause, that doesn't make that cause less worthy.

I do think we should help children starving, but I wouldn't die for that, does it make that cause worthless?, does that make me an hypocrite? Not everyone is a hero, that's an stereotype, not everyone is Rambo.

I bet 90% of people have beliefs, hopes, wishes and they are not willing to die for any of them, that's an idealistic vision that is simply not true, we are human, not movie characters, this isn't about honour, it's about what is right and what isn't, I don't claim to be right, I believe I am, but certainly, my unwilligness to die for what I believe is right won't make it wrong.

ttaM
Feb 19th, 2003, 01:43 AM
Hey Fingon! Yes, I think the article in spot on too.

Kiwi: Now if all "pro-war" people should enlist, should all "anti-war" people offer themselves as human shields in Iraq?

Kiwi_Boy
Feb 19th, 2003, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by Sam L
Good point Kiwi Boy, you should post that as a thread.

Really, if you support the war so much, go fight!

done. :)


Fingon, here we are taught that you are just as much a bully if you stand by and condone it as if you were lashing out the beatings yourself......

Beliefs are one thing,wars are another,let's face it there's no wars going on to end child hunger,yet there are wars going on to make money,gain power etc....yet another injustice upon humanity.
if you want to stop child hunger theres nothing stopping you from sponsering a world vision child is there?-
nobody can do everything but EVERYONE can do something.

Sam L
Feb 19th, 2003, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by GoMonica
Kiwi: Now if all "pro-war" people should enlist, should all "anti-war" people offer themselves as human shields in Iraq?

OMG, I think that's what they're trying to prevent. A war. So that there would be no need for shields? :confused:

Kiwi_Boy
Feb 19th, 2003, 01:49 AM
Gomonica,how many people are joing in the rallies?,unfortunately you have to pay your own way to iraq which would be out of many peoples reach....but a few nz'ers including those in the public profile are already there,people who want peace are doing what they can peacfully......people who want force are doing what forcefully?

ttaM
Feb 19th, 2003, 02:09 AM
unfortunately you have to pay your own way to iraq which would be out of many peoples reach

As is joining the military for others. I'm sure not everyone in favor of ousting Sadam is physically able to join the military (i.e. Handicap people). Nor do I think everyone in favor of ousting Sadam is under the age of 60 or over the age of 18. Get my point?

People have different ways of showing how they feel. Protesting can be used for both sides of the argument, as is going to Iraq to support your cause (whether to fight Saddam, or whether to offer yourself as a human shield.)

And the most anyone can do who favors war, is to support the troops who have to fight it.

Sam L
Feb 19th, 2003, 02:18 AM
I think he's talking about able bodied people in the right age, which I'm pretty sure is a good percentage of the people.

Also I think most people who oppose to war are opposed to war (any war). Not that they love Saddam so much as to offer themselves as shields.

Fingon
Feb 19th, 2003, 02:27 AM
Kiwifan, I don't want war, I don't want dead, but sometimes, a war is necessary to avoid something worse. Western countries did all they could to avoid a war with Germany in the 30s, and they failed, they had a war anyways and much worse than it would have been a few years before.

Now, I don't know if Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, I don't have access to intelligence reports and even if I did, I wouldn't understand them, but I do know some facts.

Saddam Hussein may not have weapons of mass destruction now, but he certainly did in the past, and used them, against his own people, and the iranians.

Iraq invaded a defenseless country in 1991, only because it couldn't defend itself and was rich in oil.

Iraq launched missiles against civilian targets in Israel, when Israel wasn't involved in the conflict.

Iraq has defied the UN for years. If war is avoided, it will be because of a showdown of force. Why do you think the inspectors are now allowed in Iraq? why does Iraq now allow an U2 spy play to flight over its territory? think that they didn't collaborate before and they expulsed the inspectors in 1998, why is now different?

answer, because there are 250,000 soldiers ready to invade Iraq, without that military build up, they would have never allowed the inspectors back in.

There are reports that Iraq has had contact with terrorists, I don't know if they are true but I do remember that Iraq offer 25,000 dollars to the families of suicide bombers, knowing what Saddam Hussein is capable of (demonstrated over and over) I don't feel comfortable with the perspective of him having weapons of mass destruction and in contact with terrorists. They want a smoking gun, what would that be? maybe a chemical attack?, maybe smallpox?

I don't know all the facts, none of us do, but what I know certainly point in one direction, the danger of letting Saddam Hussein get away are IMO too big.

And no, I am not willing to die to stop him, maybe I am a coward, but that doesn't stop me from thinking. After 9/11, I am not willing to take risks.

Sam L
Feb 19th, 2003, 02:33 AM
It's obvious that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, but that doesn't mean war has to happen.

What about North Korea? They have nuclear capabilities, do we see the US doing anything about it?

In fact, if it wasn't for 9/11, would we even been having this argument?

A US led war would only increase terrorism.

Kirt12255
Feb 19th, 2003, 02:44 AM
:sad: I find it very sad that in a thread relating to No-War anyone in here would talk about "Blowing the shit out of a poster and their children"

I don't pretend to know anything of the politics and economics involved in this sad event that is transpiring. Nor should many other people in here claim that they do.

The fact of the matter is, politicians couldn't give a shit about the future of their country, only about their party and the next vote. I know our PM and government are corrupt in many ways as I'm sure many country's are.

Is this all about oil? Hell I don't know, possibly. I don't think anyone here can pretend to know all the facts unless they work behind the closed doors where all this is happening.

Reguardless there is nothing we can do as citizens, just do what we can for our bit of humanity. The war has already begun with all the anger people throw at each other in debate.

That is a sad sad thing....the only losers of war are the political pawns that lose their life or those of loved ones.

My votes for peace!!!

Scotso
Feb 19th, 2003, 02:53 AM
War is a sin :D

LucasArg
Feb 19th, 2003, 04:40 AM
Go Monica, Fingon , God bless you:kiss: :wavey:

you need it:rolleyes:

Crazy Canuck
Feb 19th, 2003, 04:44 AM
Becca, are you just pretending? Or do you really have no clue on what you are talking about?

Ys, i believe that I posed a series of questions, did I not? Instead of critisizing me, why not educate me on the matter? I don't believe that I was rude towards Go Monica's opinion, I was merely baffled about it.

Crazy Canuck
Feb 19th, 2003, 04:46 AM
I find it very sad that in a thread relating to No-War anyone in here would talk about "Blowing the shit out of a poster and their children"



Apparently you misunderstood the ENTIRE reason that I put that. OH well, such is life on wtaworld.

BasicTennis
Feb 19th, 2003, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by LucasArg
Go Monica, Fingon , God bless you:kiss: :wavey:

you need it:rolleyes:

stop acting like a Saint here.:p

Crazy Canuck
Feb 19th, 2003, 05:50 AM
I'm awaiting a reply from ys - an apology is in order as well, but I won't hold my breathe ;) Your response was perfectly adequate, had you been adressing somebody who wasn't clearly informed yet decided to pass their opinion off as the absolute truth. Throwing it at somebody who merely asked a score of questions and was obviously confused about the matter, was totally rude and unnecessary. If your opinions on this matter are the "right" ones, and everybody who opposes you is a total "moron" - which is what many of you would like to have us believe - then why don't you explain to me what is wrong with my questions, as opposed to just flat out insulting me?

Kirt12255
Feb 19th, 2003, 09:17 AM
:wavey: Rebecca:wavey:

It was about your'e point that made me write it!!!

Everyone is entitled to their voice....THAT is a democratic world...if we like it or not.

Religion has biased this world....once was about belief and heart-felt guidance....now riddled with "man made doctrines"

WHO KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS AND KNOWS AS CITIZENS??????????? No -One......and no-one here....just a post after peace.

I am a poet that refuses to follow sonet form and have written a poem I couldn't even finish.

Hack me all you like....at least I speak the truth about not knowing what is happening behind those doors. It's about. The only person I want to Punch in our PM....he used 7/11 to support his cause....hense we know jack shit!!! He scored term again by berating hearts.

At the end of the day I would rather get to know an Iraqui family than stab their children. I hear no word of Vietnam in this...wasn't that the wrong war???

At the end of the day...it's going to be about the kids and people too....scared shitless because someone wants a vote....it's the kids I worry about....they are already screwed up.

I am 26....no kids....suicide rates in Australia are up like you would not believe....228% on last research I saw....In one year....talk of conscription happened before that poll!!!

We need to stop following the politicians and follow ourselves!

Just love everyone! we are all the same....to make people think I am not anti-american.....a poem I wrote quickly....but the substance is there.

Crazy Canuck
Feb 19th, 2003, 09:56 AM
Kirt12255 - Apologies if I misunderstood you. :)

Everybody is entitled to their own voice, but that doesn't make them moral or deserving of any respect... I speak not of people who are pro-war, but of people like Shane54 who actually say things like "kick some ass" in anticipation of an on coming war. I find that attitude absolutely disgusting. That doesn't make me anymore right than he is, I suppose, but at least I can go to bed at night feeling good about myself.

Kirt12255
Feb 19th, 2003, 10:05 AM
Hun I agree....and it's what i have said!!! Peace comes from people not politicians as ...I ...know u know! I have been trying to transfer a poem I wrote to here....having big probs!! LOL

Dammit will have to send my 7-11 poem....alot shorter....anyone wants to berate me for it....I just need 48 more LOL....I have a publisher

tennisjam
Feb 19th, 2003, 10:12 AM
Hope there's no war !!!

Kirt12255
Feb 19th, 2003, 10:50 AM
I Doubt anyone will read this....It's a poem I sent to american friends after 7/11.......relevant??? maybe


7 of the BIG "Apples


Allen, Eric
Adams, Christie A
Agnes, David Scott
Addler, Lee Allan
Alvarez, Antonio
Argawal, Alak

Fruit will fall in nature
oppresive beasts shake
green fruit fall and bruise
leaves a sour taste

Womb seeds that fall
a "short black" to heal
laughter and friendship
seen on a lounge-room sofa

Hungry men crave sour fruit
falling like acid in their stomach
hurt imposed like a sugar sprinkle
...........of kin and those branded

Two frames raised....one under her shirt
metal dwells this mother's soul
waterfalls of tears are her own barren
I can't offer a hand, but I sure try!

Bruised fruit will decay
flesh is non irrelevant
imbedded in this touched earth;
bones will clap like yelled voices

seeds Crack.......America's Back :-)
encouraging skies "I see that mouse too"
picking at the scar it won't move forever
skin folds over and makes it harder

Branches reach for the horizon
new flora that is breathing hard
straightening like an officialdom
to engulph that clear, sweet breath

Evil clamps their stomaches like vices
at the humane side of persona
never defeated with many angels
army of peace greats roses with a grater

Branches thicker than ever believed
encroach the human race like fire
to protect those with an aura of peace
renaming the mask on the face of so many

Crazy Canuck
Feb 19th, 2003, 10:59 AM
Kirt12255 -

I knew that you were argreeing with me in the last post, it just happened to lead me into a rather agressive rant ;)

Kirt12255
Feb 19th, 2003, 11:10 AM
LOL :lick: :lick: :lick: :lick: :lick: If wasn't gay u would be sought after LOL

Kirt12255
Feb 19th, 2003, 11:13 AM
Sorry about the rant! I don't care too much about war....I would rather speak my mind and see a newk fly close to my head on a few joints and just live with it....than so many people here who believe they are the next US candidate???? don't get it

seabiscuit
Feb 19th, 2003, 03:16 PM
Rebecca--i thought ys was a little too harsh on you as well;)