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GogoGirl
Feb 16th, 2003, 05:56 PM
"WAY TO GO VENUS" "CONGRATULATIONS" "GOOD JOB KIMMIE"



http://www.gomemphis.com/mca/tennis/article/0,1426,MCA_1756_1747488,00.html


Women work on challenging Williams sisters
Taking Aim

By Marlon W. Morgan
morgan@gomemphis.com
February 16, 2003

Lisa Raymond remembers what it was like when Venus and Serena Williams first stepped into the tennis scene.

They were two talented teenage African-American sisters coached by, to say the least, a very outspoken father.

In the mid-1990s, Richard Williams boasted about how his daughters would someday become the top two players on the WTA Tour.

Most people thought he was crazy. Critics said the sisters lacked the necessary fundamentals to reach the pinnacle of women's tennis. Yet, that didn't stop Williams from making his brash predictions.

''It's funny, you read all these articles and you remember listening to Richard talking, and you'd just shake your head,'' Raymond said. ''The scary thing is that everything he predicted and said has happened.''

For nearly two years now, the Williams sisters have dominated women's tennis. One of them has won six of the last seven Grand Slam tournaments. Both have been in the finals of the last four Grand Slams.

And as Richard Williams predicted, Serena is the world's top-ranked player and Venus is No. 2. They are significantly ahead of their challengers in the latest WTA Tour rankings, which begs the question: Can the challengers even compete?

Raymond, 29, who is in Memphis this week to defend her Cellular South Cup title at The Racquet Club, believes there are only a couple of players on tour right now capable of dethroning the sisters.

First, there is third-ranked Kim Clijsters, 19, of Belgium, who defeated both Venus, 22, and Serena, 21, in last year's season-ending WTA Tour Championships. Raymond also likes the chances of former No. 1 player Lindsay Davenport, 26, who is healthy again and currently ranked No. 8 after coming back from a knee injury that sidelined her most of last season.

''She's moving better than she's ever moved,'' said Raymond, currently ranked 21st. "I think that was something that you could always exploit with Lindsay. But the last couple of years, you haven't been able to do that.''

Alexandra Stevenson, 22, hopes she can make a move into the top 10 rankings this season. Stevenson, who lost in her first-ever finals appearance to Raymond in Memphis last year, is currently ranked No. 24. Her run in Memphis last year led to a season that ended with a career-high No. 18 ranking.

As a youngster in Los Angeles, Stevenson grew up playing tennis with the Williams sisters before they moved to Florida. While still good friends with them, Stevenson doesn't see the sisters, or anyone else for that matter, as being unbeatable.

''If you think somebody's unbeatable, you're in trouble,'' she said. ''You shouldn't be playing. I think I can beat anyone. I don't know what the other players think.''

But Stevenson does believe Serena and Venus should be recognized more for the way they have taken over women's tennis.

''I think they should give them their respect because it's pretty amazing that two sisters have played in four (Grand Slam) finals,'' she said. ''What they've achieved is historical and people don't give them the recognition and they don't treat them very nice.

''If it were two sisters that were white, I think it would be totally different. But that's the way the world is. Look at this: I got to the finals here (last year) and Anna's (Kournikova) all over the poster. You can't do anything about it except dye your hair blond. Then again, Serena did that, so you still can't do it.''

Raymond said what separates the elite from those trying to get there is confidence and believing you belong up there. Clearly, no one has more confidence right now than Serena, who has beaten her sister in the last four Grand Slam finals.

''I think we're all kind of resigned to the fact that they've raised the bar for women's tennis," Raymond said. "They're distancing themselves from the pack.

''I'd probably say it's best if there were more (challengers) because people get sick of seeing the same two people playing in the finals every week and in all of the Grand Slams. The more they are pushed, the better it is for everyone in women's tennis.''

The players participating in the Cellular South Cup, all ranked No. 17 and lower, hope they can be a part of the next group of challengers to the Williams sisters.

''I think it'll just take focus and to realize that all these girls that are in the top eight right now, I've beaten,'' Stevenson said. ''I haven't played Venus or Serena (recently). I played them like four years ago.

"But a lot of the girls in the top 20, I've had wins over, so there's no reason why I shouldn't be up there. That's what I look forward to. I have to work on having a steady climb.''



Btw - isn't the below sweet? I think it is wonderful that Justin got so much support from these ladies. It proves they try to keep up w/men's tennis - IMO.


http://www.timesstar.com/Stories/0,1413,125~11080~1184551,00.html


Gimelstob, who received encouraging e-mails yesterday from Lindsay Davenport, Venus William's and Lisa Raymond, put on a gritty performance. He had four double faults, and didn't force a single service break point until the sixth game of the second set, about an hour and 15 minutes into the semifinal match. He won that point but, by the 10th game, Gimelstob was facing match point. Twice.

Rocketta
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:28 PM
''I think they should give them their respect because it's pretty amazing that two sisters have played in four (Grand Slam) finals,'' she said. ''What they've achieved is historical and people don't give them the recognition and they don't treat them very nice.

''If it were two sisters that were white, I think it would be totally different. But that's the way the world is. Look at this: I got to the finals here (last year) and Anna's (Kournikova) all over the poster. You can't do anything about it except dye your hair blond. Then again, Serena did that, so you still can't do it.''


Oh Snap!!! :eek: :eek:

Hendouble
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:31 PM
And people accuse Williams haters of turning it into a racial issue! Just because Stevenson worships the ground they walk on, did she have to bring skin colour into the whole issue? I would find the sisters annoying no matter what their race, although I don't deny that their brash on-court attitude is a product of their unique upbringing.

Havok
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:33 PM
why is Stevenson put up there with a shot at beating the Williams sisters. do thewy want to kill all the readers from laughing to hard?????????????? the freakin idiot can't even get through the first round of tournaments let alone beat the Williams sisters. OMG that's the funniest thing i have heard. and why is she bitching and complaining that Anna is used to promote Memphis. hello she has done way more than Alex has done and who the hell wants to see that ugly thing lose her first match. she is the stupidest player in the WTA at the moment.

Rocketta
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:34 PM
hmm, when an atp players says something negative about the Williams people say well they should know better than any poster cause they're there. However, when a player makes a negative comment about the tennis officials or fans that they have observed then its why did they have to say that or bring that up?

harloo
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:35 PM
Interesting article, but Alex should let her racquet do the talking because so far she is not solid top 10 material.

TeeRexx
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:35 PM
-------
''I think they should give them their respect because it's pretty amazing that two sisters have played in four (Grand Slam) finals,'' she said. ''What they've achieved is historical and people don't give them the recognition and they don't treat them very nice.

''If it were two sisters that were white, I think it would be totally different. But that's the way the world is. Look at this: I got to the finals here (last year) and Anna's (Kournikova) all over the poster. You can't do anything about it except dye your hair blond. Then again, Serena did that, so you still can't do it.''
---------

Alex, you have hit the nail squarly on the head in a classic statement.

Very good take by Alex.

Freewoman33
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:36 PM
The truth hurts

harloo
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:36 PM
Uh oh, Alex is gonna start alot of controversy with that true statement. :D :eek: :eek:

Hendouble
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:38 PM
Well. maybe because I trust the opinion of someone like Jonas Bjorkman more than that of Alexandra Stevenson, because Bjorkman is making a judgement based on what he has seen and what is obvious to everyone on both tours, where Stevenson is flinging wild accusations of racial prejudice that have no real foundation whatsoever.

TeeRexx
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:39 PM
Hendouble - But the fact is the WILLIAMS sisters are black, so your feelings are suspect in the very least.

Rocketta
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by Hendouble
Well. maybe because I trust the opinion of someone like Jonas Bjorkman more than that of Alexandra Stevenson, because Bjorkman is making a judgement based on what he has seen and what is obvious to everyone on both tours, where Stevenson is flinging wild accusations of racial prejudice that have no real foundation whatsoever.

Thanks, that's exactly what I mean!

If its negative against the sisters its based in fact and everything else that you don't agree with is a wild accusation. Lets see and you know Jonas' statement was true cause you were with him when it happened right?

TeeRexx
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:41 PM
Hendouble - Yeah, I guess Alex knows zero about white people and their treatment of black people, eh? :rolleyes:

harloo
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:44 PM
Alex is on the WTA tour day in and day out, she knows more of what's going on with the WTA than Jonas.

Hendouble
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:45 PM
I'm not trying to suggest that Stevenson knows nothing about racism or hasn't experienced it on the Tour, but I dispute her contention that people unfairly criticise the Williams sisters on the basis of their skin colour. I've never seen anyone do it in the press or on TV, indeed they are full of vomitous enthusiasm for the Shrieking Siblings. And the idea that they would be liked more if they were white is just plain paranoia, if anything they'd be liked a lot less, I would imagine.

CC
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:46 PM
How the fuck would Bjorkman be in a better position to make a judgement than Alex?

Rocketta
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by CC
How the fuck would Bjorkman be in a better position to make a judgement than Alex?

CC, are you sure you don't know how Jonas would be in a better position??? I think it might have something to do with something that happened at birth. LOL

harloo
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by CC
How the fuck would Bjorkman be in a better position to make a judgement than Alex?

LOL. CC you know the answer to that one already. Bjorkman is a supposed well-respected ATP player who has inside information on the WTA.:rolleyes:

Hendouble
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:51 PM
Ah, but I take the historical source position you see. Bjorkman, being based outside the WTA, will not have a biased opinion as someone like Stevenson will have, he will make more detached and rational observations because he does not inherently favour one viewpoint over another. I'm not suggesting that Stevenson will automatically side with the Williamses just because she is also black, but she does happen to like them quite a lot and hang around them, doesn't she?

harloo
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Hendouble
Ah, but I take the historical source position you see. Bjorkman, being based outside the WTA, will not have a biased opinion as someone like Stevenson will have, he will make more detached and rational observations because he does not inherently favour one viewpoint over another. I'm not suggesting that Stevenson will automatically side with the Williamses just because she is also black, but she does happen to like them quite a lot and hang around them, doesn't she?

Hendouble, now isn't this an assumption?
:rolleyes:

Hendouble
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:56 PM
Well of course it's an assumption, as are everyone's opinions here; none of us have access to the interior politics of the WTA, none of us really know the whole truth, we can only make a reasoned judgement on what we assume to be the truth. And I simply dispute Stevenson's idea that people treat the Williamses unfairly because of their skin colour, that's all.

TeeRexx
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:57 PM
hendouble - How can Alex be on a "hate whitey" trip when her own mother is, in fact, white?
I think that Alex may know about issues of this nature from many different sides.

Hendouble
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:02 PM
I never said Stevenson was on a "hate whitey " trip, I said she was being a little paranoid. Those are not the same things. However, I do wonder whether her mother is actually fuelling all these foolish observations with ill-judged advice to Alex - she strikes me as the archetypal Tennis Mum somehow.

harloo
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Hendouble
Well of course it's an assumption, as are everyone's opinions here; none of us have access to the interior politics of the WTA, none of us really know the whole truth, we can only make a reasoned judgement on what we assume to be the truth. And I simply dispute Stevenson's idea that people treat the Williamses unfairly because of their skin colour, that's all.

You have a right to your opinion, however I think I will give more credit to Alex's opinion since she is an active player on the WTA. I just find that your assumption of Jonas having a more valid opinion than Alex because he is unbiased to be flawed.

Hendouble
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:06 PM
Well to be honest, I've almost forgotten what Bjorkman actually said about the Williams sisters... if I remember clearly it was about them being remote and "diva-like" on the Tour, which is an observation that is easy to back up and is nowhere near as controversial or divisive as the claim about racism towards them that Stevenson is making.

CoryAnnAvants#1
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:33 PM
Oh please Alex! She was called the n-word once at a junior tournament in Roehampton FIVE YEARS AGO! She acts like she is the only black person who has been called this. Since then she claims the tour is full of prejudice. Yeah that is why players like Chanda Rubin and Lori Mcneil are just despised by everyone in the locker room:rolleyes: Maybe people in the locker room dislike you because you are a bitch, Alex. Maybe it's because you never give credit to players when they beat you. Maybe it's because you keep saying you are going to win Wimbledon when you can't even the Surbiton 25K. Then again, maybe she should be up there w/Anna for Memphis.

"Come see two beautiful. hard hitting WTA players with big egos, yet aren't consistent enough to win a tournament anywhere at the Kroger St. Jude Championships.":rolleyes:

Uxobi
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:35 PM
You go Alex. Some people can't handle the truth!!!! Alex learned that there is no biracial......1/2 black = BLACK. Blonde hair won't do it, stating that you are a "made up" race won't do it either. No matter how much you hate to admit it, black athletes will never be seen as equals. I am so glad that Alex woke up!

o0O0o
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:42 PM
You can base it on income or eductation or whatever you'd like, but it seems like most black people on this board are bigger racists than even the most racist white people. Yell at white people, but the notion of grouping together with others just because they have the same skin color as you is racist. So you only include them because of their skin?

See: (signature) GO VENUS, SERENA, CHANDA, and ALEX!

Etc.

Uxobi
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:47 PM
The same could be as stating Higins, Kournikova, Clijsters and Nastya---etc.

Welcome to the real world!!!!

o0O0o
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:52 PM
Truly, you are a moron.

If you don't understand the difference between liking FOUR (white) GIRLS out of a possible HUNDREDS of white girls...

...and liking FOUR black girls out of a possible FOUR black girls...

then you need a dose of logic, my friend. The day I list every white tennis player that we know of in my signature is the day your rebuttal holds weight.

Midnite Surfer
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:54 PM
Hendouble- What brash on court behavior are you talking about? What is so "brash" about Venus or Serena's on court behavior. Specificity is always a good thing when making inflammatory remarks.

Iconoclast
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by GogoGirl
''If it were two sisters that were white, I think it would be totally different. But that's the way the world is. Look at this: I got to the finals here (last year) and Anna's (Kournikova) all over the poster. You can't do anything about it except dye your hair blond. Then again, Serena did that, so you still can't do it.''
Anna Kournikova is one of the biggest draws in tennis. Stevenson is virtually unknown to the general public. The organizers would be fiscally insane to put Alexandra 'all over the poster'. And, following Alexandra's warped logic, shouldn't white Lisa Raymond feel slighted instead. Not only is she the title holder, she is also a much more accomplished player than Stevenson.

They don't put Anna on the poster because she is blonde. But because she is an international sex symbol. You don't need blonde hair for that function.

o0O0o
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:56 PM
I know you're not asking me, but I think Venus' on court demeanor is perfectly respectable. Serena, on the other hand...

Uxobi
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:57 PM
There are more than 4 black females tennis players....ASSHOLE!

By the way, I look forward to your next Venus prediction. Your analysis of her game was so on.......LOL!

Midnite Surfer
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:57 PM
How is Serena brash?

BombsAway
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by o0O0o
You can base it on income or eductation or whatever you'd like, but it seems like most black people on this board are bigger racists than even the most racist white people. Yell at white people, but the notion of grouping together with others just because they have the same skin color as you is racist. So you only include them because of their skin?

See: (signature) GO VENUS, SERENA, CHANDA, and ALEX!

Etc.

So!

When I see Venus and Serena I see me.

When I look at Anna Korn I don't see me. I'd rather co-mingle with me an those (non-coloreds) that understand me.

Isn't that the American way?

Volcana
Feb 16th, 2003, 08:09 PM
What I find admirable is Lisa Raymond. She SAID during that whole Olympic fiasco that she had nothing against Venus or Serena, but she felt the process was unfair. Well, what else was she going to say? But I read this and I have to say she was clearly sincere in her words back then. Quite a few other players have displayed less grace when commenting on Venus and Serena.

On the topic, two other players who've said rather nice things at trying times were Paola Suarez and Virginia Ruano Pascual. That whole seeding thing at OZ could have gotten nasty. (And they SHOULD have been seeded #1, and V & S #2, JMHO) Instead, they remained complimentary to their opponents. Class acts for sure.

TSequoia01
Feb 16th, 2003, 08:09 PM
Tsk, tsk so many broken hearts. Hey, the great thing about tennis is there is always another match to be played. o0O0o you will get over Kim's loss, she will play another day. Can't stay long celebrating Venus' big win! I 'll come back and argue tomorrow. :eek: ;) :cool:

Rtael
Feb 16th, 2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by o0O0o
I know you're not asking me, but I think Venus' on court demeanor is perfectly respectable. Serena, on the other hand...


Hey yeah, you know what, she swore once, get over it jackass =P


And I guess I can't say I have conclusive proof, but I do think everyone's opinions would be different if the Sisters were white, or white and NOT sisters, and their media image, etc. would be different, and I'm not saying that it would be a concious thing from people, but just a sub-concious....reaction, I guess...to what they are, and people don't even realize that they let that affect how they view the sisters =P

SerenaSlam
Feb 16th, 2003, 08:25 PM
AWW SHNAPP! OKAY ALEX TELL IT LIKE IT IS SISTAH GURL, THEY GET TA HATIN ON YA WHEN YOU PULL SOME OF THAT BLACKNESS IN THE PICTURE ANS SPEAK YO MIND! TELL IT LIKE IT IS GURL!

DON'T HATE NOW, THIS GURL IS WHITE AND BLACK, BUT I GUESS SINCE SHE GOT A LIL BLACK IN HER, YOU CAN STIRR UP SOME SHIT EH?

STEVENSON IS VERY UNKOWN IN THE PUBLIC, BUT YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT MOST OF THE PUBLIC CONSIDER ANNA A 2 DOLLAR HOE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES. WHEN MOST OF THE PEOPLE ARE SAYING OHH ANNA, ANNA, I WANNA SEE ANNA, I BET I COULD TAPE THAT ASS, OR SHE IS FINE AS HELL, SHIT LIKE THAT, SHE SOUND LIKE A HOE, AND SHE BRINGS THE PRESENES OF "HOE" TO THE BUILDING. ITS BEEN SAID OVER AND OVER, HER STATUS IN EUROPE IS COMPLTELY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT THEY THINK OF HER HERE IN THE STATES!

LeonHart
Feb 16th, 2003, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by SerenaSlam
AWW SHNAPP! OKAY ALEX TELL IT LIKE IT IS SISTAH GURL, THEY GET TA HATIN ON YA WHEN YOU PULL SOME OF THAT BLACKNESS IN THE PICTURE ANS SPEAK YO MIND! TELL IT LIKE IT IS GURL!

DON'T HATE NOW, THIS GURL IS WHITE AND BLACK, BUT I GUESS SINCE SHE GOT A LIL BLACK IN HER, YOU CAN STIRR UP SOME SHIT EH?

STEVENSON IS VERY UNKOWN IN THE PUBLIC, BUT YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT MOST OF THE PUBLIC CONSIDER ANNA A 2 DOLLAR HOE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES. WHEN MOST OF THE PEOPLE ARE SAYING OHH ANNA, ANNA, I WANNA SEE ANNA, I BET I COULD TAPE THAT ASS, OR SHE IS FINE AS HELL, SHIT LIKE THAT, SHE SOUND LIKE A HOE, AND SHE BRINGS THE PRESENES OF "HOE" TO THE BUILDING. ITS BEEN SAID OVER AND OVER, HER STATUS IN EUROPE IS COMPLTELY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT THEY THINK OF HER HERE IN THE STATES!

Another useless post :rolleyes:

yoyo
Feb 16th, 2003, 08:28 PM
Every time there is a thread about the Williams, I realised (a fact) thet Hendouble and Starr are the leaders of bashing and /or defending the Williams haters. Does anyone know if one of them is a player that Venus and Serena keep beating ?

maccardel
Feb 16th, 2003, 08:46 PM
Naldo---you are an ass!!!!!!!!!

What Alex said is true. Why the fuck is Anna all over the poster and yet Anna can't even make a trip to the tourney cos she don't do Memphis....furthermore make it out of the first round...Anna uses wildcards like she uses brushes...every 5 minutes...that's basically how long it takes for her to be in the tourney.

Anna is not even ranked in the top 50 for crying out loud..........What do the organizers expect to happen with Anna on the poster.....for tickets to sell out for first day session...and then what when she loses...the tourney would be obsolete for the rest of the week. If you weren't a fan before this tourney then I don't see Memphis making any converts....therefore Alex is very right in saying what she said.....


Naldo stop hating and start appreciating......the facts.

maccardel
Feb 16th, 2003, 08:49 PM
Also...mark Alex's words...I remember Serena saying the same thing over a year and a half ago.....could this be.....I hope Naldo is watching a Anna match and Anna mishits the ball and it lands in his mouth......perfect situation huh?


A player who can't play and a fan who can suck.....

Iconoclast
Feb 16th, 2003, 09:38 PM
No need to go on a rampage against Anna, maccardel, because you disagree with the organizers' decision to put her on their poster. And they obviously did so before she withdrew.

Alexandra criticised them for using Anna - when Alex had made the final last year(!). And she suggested they did so because Anna is white, and Alex is not (well, she is partially).

Sorry, I find that to be a ridiculous suggestion. Anna is one of best-known athletes in the world, and an ideal tool for promoting an event. Alexandra Stevenson is not. And neither is Lisa Raymond.

Becool
Feb 16th, 2003, 10:04 PM
What can you expect from Naldo?

He'll always bash Alex and support that Homophobic thing :rolleyes:

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Feb 16th, 2003, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Volcana
What I find admirable is Lisa Raymond. She SAID during that whole Olympic fiasco that she had nothing against Venus or Serena, but she felt the process was unfair. Well, what else was she going to say? But I read this and I have to say she was clearly sincere in her words back then. Quite a few other players have displayed less grace when commenting on Venus and Serena.

On the topic, two other players who've said rather nice things at trying times were Paola Suarez and Virginia Ruano Pascual. That whole seeding thing at OZ could have gotten nasty. (And they SHOULD have been seeded #1, and V & S #2, JMHO) Instead, they remained complimentary to their opponents. Class acts for sure.

Words of wisdom, as always :)

MarcusRock
Feb 16th, 2003, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by SerenaSlam
...I WANNA SEE ANNA, I BET I COULD TAPE THAT ASS...The WTAworld Quote Hall of Fame just grew by 50%

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 16th, 2003, 11:07 PM
What is this thing that Americans have about inexpensive garden implements? "Two-dollar hoe" - what the fuck is that all about? :confused:

Brian Stewart
Feb 16th, 2003, 11:50 PM
We hate to overspend for our tools. :)

Alexandra's proclamations have been somewhat scattershot, but I have to agree with this one. No sooner did the Williams sisters reach 1 and 2 than the media began bashing the rest of the tour. It was their not-so-subtle way of saying that if "those two" are on top, then the rest of the players must be garbage. It certainly couldn't be because "those two" are that good.

And look at those ridiculous "match-fixing" allegations the sisters have had to deal with. Remember the outcry in the tennis media after the Indian Wells incident? The demands that the WTA, and CEO McGuire, "do something" to punish the sisters for their "transgressions". Then, later, while grudgingly admitting they had no proof, the writers still demanded some sort of punishment, because "everyone" "knew" the sisters were guilty. As it became increasingly obvious over time that those allegations were groundless, the media backed away. But I have not seen a single one of them say "I was wrong". Because they would then have to say why they made that assumption in the first place, in the face of such flimsy "evidence" (and even more evidence that would lead one against such a conclusion).

And there is no reason to bash Anna. She was on the marquee because she is the biggest draw the tournament had.

2284
Feb 16th, 2003, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by harloo
Interesting article, but Alex should let her racquet do the talking because so far she is not solid top 10 material.
...and the article suggests that Alex has a chance against venus and Serena :rolleyes: . Only if they don't bother to show up and forfeit the match

2284
Feb 16th, 2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Brian Stewart
We hate to overspend for our tools. :)

Alexandra's proclamations have been somewhat scattershot, but I have to agree with this one. No sooner did the Williams sisters reach 1 and 2 than the media began bashing the rest of the tour. It was their not-so-subtle way of saying that if "those two" are on top, then the rest of the players must be garbage. It certainly couldn't be because "those two" are that good.


I don't know how it was portrayed overseas, but here it seemed like the media were bashing the rest of the tour because they didn't stand a chance against a Williams (nothing racial). If it was implied racially, they should serve a few balls at the reporters. That would certainly shut them up

2284
Feb 16th, 2003, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by jouissant
What is this thing that Americans have about inexpensive garden implements? "Two-dollar hoe" - what the fuck is that all about? :confused:

LMAO! A plastic hoe rather than metal, I assume :p

Hulet
Feb 17th, 2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by untitled2284
...and the article suggests that Alex has a chance against venus and Serena :rolleyes: . Only if they don't bother to show up and forfeit the match
Well, that is mostly true for most of the rest of the tour too.

Anyways, I don't understand why everyone has to slam Alexandra b/c she said that the sisters suffer some kind of bias due to their colors. She seems to be the closest to them in the tour so she must know what they go through most of the day during the tournament. Calling her Idiot (yes, you Naldo) is idiotic. :) She has the right to voice her opinion as others do. We might not agree with what she says but that doesn't give us the right to insult her.

For those people who said they would take jonas word at face value but not alexandras, please don't be delusional. It seems like most people here choose the "Hear no evil; See no evil" approach when it comes to biased treatment of the sisters.

SerenaSlam
Feb 17th, 2003, 01:07 AM
LeonHart....i see you are yet another foreigner. you just don't understand us americans...or do you not have the balls to take the turth?

the post wasn't usesless and once again I have been cracked up w/ the dumb ass :rolleyes gesture!

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 17th, 2003, 01:12 AM
I'd like to come in here with my two cents and say that ebonics is not blackness. I don't have to speak in slang or utilize poor grammar skills to fulfill some quietient of blackness. Who the hell came up with that? Sorry but knowing my history and the history of my people and working toward building a better future defines my blackness, not some misspelled words.

I'd just like to point out that rooting for the "four" black girls on tour is the same as rooting for the "two" belgian girls on tour.

leslie
Feb 17th, 2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by TeeRexx
-------
''I think they should give them their respect because it's pretty amazing that two sisters have played in four (Grand Slam) finals,'' she said. ''What they've achieved is historical and people don't give them the recognition and they don't treat them very nice.

''If it were two sisters that were white, I think it would be totally different. But that's the way the world is. Look at this: I got to the finals here (last year) and Anna's (Kournikova) all over the poster. You can't do anything about it except dye your hair blond. Then again, Serena did that, so you still can't do it.''
---------

Alex, you have hit the nail squarly on the head in a classic statement.

Very good take by Alex.

Exactly what Alex said --Billy Jean King said the same thing in the latest tennis magazine.

leslie
Feb 17th, 2003, 01:52 AM
Hendouble, Alex is not the only one who said that. If you read the latest issue of tennis magazine Billy Jean King said the same exact words.

BombsAway
Feb 17th, 2003, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by cybelledarkholmexx
I'd like to come in here with my two cents and say that ebonics is not blackness. I don't have to speak in slang or utilize poor grammar skills to fulfill some quietient of blackness. Who the hell came up with that? Sorry but knowing my history and the history of my people and working toward building a better future defines my blackness, not some misspelled words.


I like Ebonic speaking. It's totally Black. Just like Rap Music, hey 50 cent has the No. 1 Album.

You can't get to No. 1 with just black people buying your Album.

Do you thang SerenaSlam....there's room for you too.

LeonHart
Feb 17th, 2003, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by SerenaSlam
LeonHart....i see you are yet another foreigner. you just don't understand us americans...or do you not have the balls to take the turth?

the post wasn't usesless and once again I have been cracked up w/ the dumb ass :rolleyes gesture!

LoL, too bad i live in California, USA dumbshit :) Pls, if u wanna make fun of "foreigners" make sure they're one first idiot...

Jennifer's wife
Feb 17th, 2003, 02:23 AM
mwahh! touche Lionhart! not that i know what the argument is about but your response tickles me!:D

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 17th, 2003, 02:40 AM
If ebonics is your thing then great but it is not a language and its slang. It has its place, but it is not some great cornerstone of the black culture no matter how desperate some want it to be. I swear even calling it slang is pushing it. Its more of a dialect.

Chance
Feb 17th, 2003, 02:49 AM
LOL
Maccardel & jouissant - thanks for making me laugh
DeuceDiva- I like your style

CC- I've never seen you angry before.

SerenaSlam
Feb 17th, 2003, 03:01 AM
Actually w/ me, I can get caught up most of the tyme, and when I do my posts, I am forced to make them "a lil white for these people" b/c they would have no clue as to what I am saying! It honestly does take me a minute to type something up b/c I have to actually "think" how it would be said to sound "correct" in the "white mans eyes"! But hell yeah im bout to do my damn thing! that is how i am, very outspoken, and don't give a muthafuckin damn what some otha bitches be thinkin!

BombsAway
Feb 17th, 2003, 03:05 AM
Originally posted by cybelledarkholmexx
If ebonics is your thing then great but it is not a language and its slang. It has its place, but it is not some great cornerstone of the black culture no matter how desperate some want it to be. I swear even calling it slang is pushing it. Its more of a dialect.

You can create yourself in being whatever you are NOT! It's O.K. I'm like the Williams sisters. What you see is what you get.

and I'm not trying to fit into your games.

Instead, I'll CREATE my own. and you can keep YOUR shame to yourself.

CC
Feb 17th, 2003, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by sunset
LOL
Maccardel & jouissant - thanks for making me laugh
DeuceDiva- I like your style

CC- I've never seen you angry before.

Yah, I much prefer to make my point without the use of profanity, but I'm not ashamed of my moment of weakness.

But if I may offer an excuse (;)), it's simply that I was getting accustomed to, and up until this point finding such amusement in Hendouble's intellectual upchucks all over the board, that the sudden display of outrageous stupidity caught me off guard. I reacted more out of disappointment than anger. :p

;) ;)

No seriously, I don't put much effort into being angry. I was over it in a minute. :D

Chance
Feb 17th, 2003, 04:18 AM
no no CC- you don't have to explain yourself to me. I understand where you are coming from. I was just beginning to think you were a saint..that's all. ;)- Nothing wrong in swearing.

:)

CC
Feb 17th, 2003, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by sunset
no no CC- you don't have to explain yourself to me. I understand where you are coming from. I was just beginning to think you were a saint..that's all. ;)- Nothing wrong in swearing.

:)

Nope, no Saint here at all. ;)

And the swearing, well, you should hear me when I'm driving. :bounce:

I don't exactly like it, but I just can't help it. :lick:

LeonHart
Feb 17th, 2003, 05:17 AM
Originally posted by SerenaSlam
Actually w/ me, I can get caught up most of the tyme, and when I do my posts, I am forced to make them "a lil white for these people" b/c they would have no clue as to what I am saying! It honestly does take me a minute to type something up b/c I have to actually "think" how it would be said to sound "correct" in the "white mans eyes"! But hell yeah im bout to do my damn thing! that is how i am, very outspoken, and don't give a muthafuckin damn what some otha bitches be thinkin!

How sad, your forced to type "white" english so 80% of the country can understand you. Pity.

SerenaSlam
Feb 17th, 2003, 05:35 AM
aint it said tho?

danielrosario
Feb 17th, 2003, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by Brian Stewart
No sooner did the Williams sisters reach 1 and 2 than the media began bashing the rest of the tour. It was their not-so-subtle way of saying that if "those two" are on top, then the rest of the players must be garbage. It certainly couldn't be because "those two" are that good.

I totally disagree on this! When Hingis became number 1, the media responded in the exact same way. So did players: MacEnroe said something like if she (Hingis) could be number 1 in the world then it's a sorry state for women's tennis.

Basically, the Williams sisters are currently dominating tennis in much the same way that Hingis had in 1997. What the media is doing, is just sounding a wake up call for the rest of the players to bridge the gap.

danielrosario
Feb 17th, 2003, 09:07 AM
And to whoever suggested that Anna is a pin-up because she is white and blonde, i think you need to consider the fact that she's slim, svelte and sexy -- that's why she's a pin-up. Not coz she's white and blonde. Mariaan de Swaardt was white and blonde... but I bet you didn't paste her posters on your bedroom wall. Did you?

Rocketta
Feb 17th, 2003, 04:10 PM
cc--did you delete your post?? I wanna see! :)

Rocketta
Feb 17th, 2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by danielrosario
And to whoever suggested that Anna is a pin-up because she is white and blonde, i think you need to consider the fact that she's slim, svelte and sexy -- that's why she's a pin-up. Not coz she's white and blonde. Mariaan de Swaardt was white and blonde... but I bet you didn't paste her posters on your bedroom wall. Did you?

I would call this opinion slightly delusional. Yes Anna is attractive but she is not "more" attractive than any of the other attractive women who have played tennis. The only difference is that long blonde hair. No one is comparing her to unattractive tennis players. Your out of your mind if you think that Gabriella (sp?) Sabatina, Kimko Date or any other extremely attractive player would be half as marketed as Anna. Especially with as little success as Anna has on the court.

CC
Feb 17th, 2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by Rocketta
cc--did you delete your post?? I wanna see! :)
No I didn't. Sunset is referring to my use of the F word.:)

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Feb 17th, 2003, 10:26 PM
Bottom line - Venus and Serena are #1 and #2 and they are themselves no matter what race, religion, nationality, sexual orientation, creed, or any other type of distinct innateness they are :)

Rocketta
Feb 17th, 2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by CC
No I didn't. Sunset is referring to my use of the F word.:)

How in the heck did I miss you dropping the F-bomb?? LOL :p

CC
Feb 17th, 2003, 10:48 PM
Teehee.:)

switz
Feb 17th, 2003, 11:38 PM
i am sure their race has led to some negative experiences, but i think it has also brought them a lot of support. if it were the casanova sisters dominating for example, they might not get as much flack, but that would only be because they would not get so much attention. you have to accept that when you are in the limelight and you not some pacificist who never says anything controversial, you are inevitably going to get criticised. whether it that criticism is justified is irrelevant in the world we live in.

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 18th, 2003, 12:20 AM
Instead, I'll CREATE my own. and you can keep YOUR shame to yourself.

Shame? Well excuse me for having an opinion. I guess your proud to be on the speaking level of a first grader held back for two years. I find it highly ironic that some of our forefathers died trying to get an education and now some people disregard that by wallowing in backwards speech. Ebonics is not about black culture. Its about poverty. Its about going to a school where the teachers don't give a damn whether you ever leave the cess pool or not. Its about having parents who dont give a damn if their child sounds like an uneducated fool.

If you think speaking ebonics some how magically makes you black you are indeed a fool. Try reading WEB Dubois The souls of black folk because somehow I think you along with a lot of others have not.

BigTennisFan
Feb 18th, 2003, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by cybelledarkholmexx
Shame? Well excuse me for having an opinion. I guess your proud to be on the speaking level of a first grader held back for two years. I find it highly ironic that some of our forefathers died trying to get an education and now some people disregard that by wallowing in backwards speech. Ebonics is not about black culture. Its about poverty. Its about going to a school where the teachers don't give a damn whether you ever leave the cess pool or not. Its about having parents who dont give a damn if their child sounds like an uneducated fool.

If you think speaking ebonics some how magically makes you black you are indeed a fool. Try reading WEB Dubois The souls of black folk because somehow I think you along with a lot of others have not.


Preach that word, cybelle!:D

WtaTour4Ever
Feb 18th, 2003, 04:11 AM
Originally posted by cybelledarkholmexx
Shame? Well excuse me for having an opinion. I guess your proud to be on the speaking level of a first grader held back for two years. I find it highly ironic that some of our forefathers died trying to get an education and now some people disregard that by wallowing in backwards speech. Ebonics is not about black culture. Its about poverty. Its about going to a school where the teachers don't give a damn whether you ever leave the cess pool or not. Its about having parents who dont give a damn if their child sounds like an uneducated fool.

If you think speaking ebonics some how magically makes you black you are indeed a fool. Try reading WEB Dubois The souls of black folk because somehow I think you along with a lot of others have not.

Well Said Cybelle!!!! It will be a wonderful day when people black/white/red/brown realize that being African-American/Black is not synonymous with acting/speaking/being an "uneducated fool"

Chance
Feb 18th, 2003, 04:15 AM
what does that say about Serenaslam?

BombsAway
Feb 18th, 2003, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by cybelledarkholmexx
Shame? Well excuse me for having an opinion. I guess your proud to be on the speaking level of a first grader held back for two years. I find it highly ironic that some of our forefathers died trying to get an education and now some people disregard that by wallowing in backwards speech. Ebonics is not about black culture. Its about poverty. Its about going to a school where the teachers don't give a damn whether you ever leave the cess pool or not. Its about having parents who dont give a damn if their child sounds like an uneducated fool.

If you think speaking ebonics some how magically makes you black you are indeed a fool. Try reading WEB Dubois The souls of black folk because somehow I think you along with a lot of others have not.

BITCH!

I'm not going to go back and forth with your sissy-ass on this issue.

Try reading Carter G. Woodson "miseducation of the Negro"

also, Ebonic speaking, is about as colored as collard greens and hamhocks. Neither I like, but they are O.K. with me.

BigTennisFan
Feb 18th, 2003, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by BombsAway

Try reading Carter G. Woodson "miseducation of the Negro"


Which is wonderful example of ebonics.

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 18th, 2003, 04:42 AM
Oh so now I'm a bitch? Funny how the poorly educated fall back on profanity when they have nothing intelligent to add to the conversation. And just to demonstrate good faith I will go read the book you so vehemently suggested. I hope you do the same with the one I recommended.


On a side note being black has nothing to do with what you eat, what music you listen to, what religion you are, or how you speak. Blackness is measure in your soul, in your thoughts, how you think! Knowing where you come from, you know the past, and using that to build into the future. Its about striving to be the best and helping your brothers and sisters do the same. EVERYTHING ELSE IS JUST MEANINGLESS CRAP.

listening to rap does not make you "black"
speaking ebonics does not make you "black"
wearing baggy clothes or even a dashiki does not make you "black"

I can go on and on but if you dont understand that then there's probably no point. I hope I'm wrong and I'll list some more reading material I think you'd enjoy when I'm done with the woodson book.

hollywood7172
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:27 AM
thanks for the post cybelle. i wish more people black, white, red, yellow, or blue could be more like you.

even though we've had our sparrs, and even though i called you cybelleDICK once, you've gotten my respect in this thread.

you go girlfriend. and don't feel bad if some are too young or stupid to understand. i got ya.

Informative
Feb 18th, 2003, 09:56 AM
Alex is right and we all know it!! Hendouble has proven over and over again that he/she has NO IDEA what he/she is talking about, LOL

BombsAway
Feb 18th, 2003, 01:56 PM
No Sweetie

The color of your skin MAKES you black. Remember that when you hail a taxi in NY or Chicago.

Those example you listed are CULTURAL. Merely a minute part of the black experience.

You and MICHEAL JACKSON are more closely aligned. People who are STUCK in a being they HATE.

It's O.K. to be a WANNA BE. So why are your rooting for Venus and Serena? They are everything you are NOT.

Oh, I get it....they have Black Face. The difference is they are not JUDGMENTAL!

You: an unattractive black fag have the audacity to pass judgement because you THINK you are smart, therefore you BELIEVE your perception of black is best.

I see why you have over 2400 post. NOBODY WANTS TO BE WITH YOU.

DunkMachine
Feb 18th, 2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by o0O0o
You can base it on income or eductation or whatever you'd like, but it seems like most black people on this board are bigger racists than even the most racist white people. Yell at white people, but the notion of grouping together with others just because they have the same skin color as you is racist. So you only include them because of their skin?

See: (signature) GO VENUS, SERENA, CHANDA, and ALEX!

Etc.

Oh please, you bullshit is starting to smell "0O0". Are you feeling opressed lately as a white person(or whatever you are)? How can grouping together because of skincolour be racist? Was Dr. M.L. King racist? Fine you call it racist I call it solidarity. The Williams camp have been getting alot of crap from the (overly caucasian) press eventhough they've been as correct and sportsmanlike as the next player on the tour.

Fine for those who are waiting for their GreatWhiteHope I guess you will have to do with the 2 BlackPowers instead :p

p.s. Pun and sarcasm intended in last line

G_Slammed
Feb 18th, 2003, 04:38 PM
Ebonic speaking, is about as colored as collard greens and hamhocks. Neither I like, but they are O.K. with me.

..how about mustards.. or turnips? Collards are good.. if the person making them knows how to prepare them. Not everybody can cook them. I prefer mustards myself.

sartrista7
Feb 18th, 2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by cybelledarkholmexx
Oh so now I'm a bitch? Funny how the poorly educated fall back on profanity when they have nothing intelligent to add to the conversation. And just to demonstrate good faith I will go read the book you so vehemently suggested. I hope you do the same with the one I recommended.


On a side note being black has nothing to do with what you eat, what music you listen to, what religion you are, or how you speak. Blackness is measure in your soul, in your thoughts, how you think! Knowing where you come from, you know the past, and using that to build into the future. Its about striving to be the best and helping your brothers and sisters do the same. EVERYTHING ELSE IS JUST MEANINGLESS CRAP.

listening to rap does not make you "black"
speaking ebonics does not make you "black"
wearing baggy clothes or even a dashiki does not make you "black"

I can go on and on but if you dont understand that then there's probably no point. I hope I'm wrong and I'll list some more reading material I think you'd enjoy when I'm done with the woodson book.

I never saw this! Oh, Cybelle, I love you :D Post of the year!

Kart
Feb 18th, 2003, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by BombsAway

You: an unattractive black fag have the audacity to pass judgement because you THINK you are smart, therefore you BELIEVE your perception of black is best.


And you are what exactly ?

I see why you have only 34 posts ... it must take a lot of time and energy to be that spiteful.

Infiniti2001
Feb 18th, 2003, 06:32 PM
::::Applauds Miss cybelle fervently::::

brickhousesupporter
Feb 18th, 2003, 07:35 PM
Miss cybelle that is why I miss your posts. Brickhouse :applauds:

treufreund
Feb 18th, 2003, 07:43 PM
What the hell makes you think cybelle is an unattractive black fag? And so what if he is? I happen to love unattractive black fags. MY BEST FRIEND IN THIS WHOLE DAMN WORLD IS AN UGLY, FAT NIG$GER QUEER. AND HE IS BEAUTIFUL AND I LOVE HIM SO Fukk off to you. How dare you insult cybelle who was making an eloquent point. :fiery:

victory1
Feb 18th, 2003, 08:01 PM
Go Cybelle! :bounce:

Truefiend, I know you're trying to help, but you post leaves little to be desired!:rolleyes:

griffin
Feb 18th, 2003, 08:10 PM
A little translation might help people save some breath:

Calling cybelledarkholmexx "sissy" "unattractive black fag" and saying she's "stuck in a being you hate" = trollbonics for "I am not worth arguing with"

treufreund
Feb 18th, 2003, 08:11 PM
What the hell is wrong with my post? :fiery: I am a queer guy whose best friend is a "****** queer". We use these words with each other BECAUSE WE ARE TAKING AWAY THE POWER FROM THESE WORDS! If somebody calls you queer, bitch, hoe, ******, fat ass, chink, dyke, kike or anything else then you tell them "GOOD OBSERVATION and PROUD OF IT" and then just smile and walk away. How dare somebody try to degrade cybelle? Also you can call me "fiend" all you want but maybe you should figure out where I am coming from before you start lambasting me. OKAY? :wavey:

CC
Feb 18th, 2003, 10:49 PM
I agree with Cybelle.

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 18th, 2003, 11:18 PM
No Sweetie

The color of your skin MAKES you black. Remember that when you hail a taxi in NY or Chicago.

Those example you listed are CULTURAL. Merely a minute part of the black experience.

You and MICHEAL JACKSON are more closely aligned. People who are STUCK in a being they HATE.

It's O.K. to be a WANNA BE. So why are your rooting for Venus and Serena? They are everything you are NOT.

Oh, I get it....they have Black Face. The difference is they are not JUDGMENTAL!

You: an unattractive black fag have the audacity to pass judgement because you THINK you are smart, therefore you BELIEVE your perception of black is best.

I see why you have over 2400 post. NOBODY WANTS TO BE WITH YOU.



First lets get some things straight, which you seem to have a problem doing, I am not gay nor am I male. Can you understand that or do you need to smell my punani so it gets through to your reptillian brain?

Now you say the color of your skin makes you black? Well I guess all those people who live in India should just be smacked silly and be informed how they are now part of the black race. Skin tone does not make you black, just ask michael jackson as you yourself said. And speaking of MJ are you that addicted to pop culture that you couldn't steer away from the telesion to find another reference or its it because your probably educated on Comedy Central? Your reasoning sure points in that direction.

I know what I listed was cultural, I never said it wasn't. I also never said that those cultural aspects of the black community were the only things to make one black. Looks to me like you are back tracking, trying to cover your ass huh?

I really feel sorry for you. Maybe you were raised by some adopted family and therefore have no idea what it means to be black. Maybe you think wearing a dashiki or listening to rap or braiding your hair will give you some "blackness". Sorry, girlfriend but you will only be a laughing stock because if "blackness" isn't in your heart people will see right through you. I have. Phony.

And now you say Serena and Venus are in black face? Okay. I see you have a sharp mind there.

Taa Taa I'm sure you have some reading to do or are you too busy scouring the streets for the latest slang to prove your a true soul sistah?

Hendouble
Feb 18th, 2003, 11:24 PM
Oops a daisy, I can't believe I started most of this whole furious debate off with my comments on the first page. Now we're getting terms like 'punani', 'hoe' and all kinds of profanities... I don't mean to be cheeky or anything, but perhaps we should all avoid trying to categorise and define race in such foul-mouthed and simplistic terms.

JenCpLvr
Feb 18th, 2003, 11:25 PM
Racism exist among every race... FACE IT PEOPLE!! It doesnt require a race having more power to hold bigot points of view..

And please don't tell me that black people are percieved as "racist" because they are merely using self defense... It's the lamest excuse I've ever heard.

Racism is ingorant.. and I believe that.. But, you all need to believe it exists in every race.

Chance
Feb 19th, 2003, 03:56 AM
Bombsaway, why don't you just drop a bomb on yourself.

You may not agree with Cybelle but you don't have to be so damn disrespectful.

anton
Feb 19th, 2003, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by CC
How the fuck would Bjorkman be in a better position to make a judgement than Alex?

As far as I know Jonas isn't on the WTA Tour so he wouldn't...

anton
Feb 19th, 2003, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by o0O0o
Truly, you are a moron.

If you don't understand the difference between liking FOUR (white) GIRLS out of a possible HUNDREDS of white girls...

...and liking FOUR black girls out of a possible FOUR black girls...




alex lives with her mom who is White

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 19th, 2003, 04:19 AM
Sunset, what do you expect from a backwards ignorant fool? He's probably a high school dropout on goverment assistance. Are you typing away at the local library, Bombsaway, or did you save your foodstamps and trade them in for a hot computer?

BombsAway
Feb 19th, 2003, 04:24 AM
Originally posted by cybelledarkholmexx
Sunset, what do you expect from a backwards ignorant fool? He's probably a high school dropout on goverment assistance. Are you typing away at the local library, Bombsaway, or did you save your foodstamps and trade them in for a hot computer?

You stupid-ass wannabee, I'm an Infectious Disease R.N. Last year I made over $127,000. One day, I might take care of you.

DunkMachine
Feb 19th, 2003, 04:41 AM
When will all the black on black fighting end?!! :sad:

harloo
Feb 19th, 2003, 05:04 AM
Why don't you guys take this up in Private Messages? It seems neither side really knows the purpose of implementing ebonics into the educational system. The purpose of introducing ebonics into education was to correct the usage of improper language used by students in urban communities. The media seemed to rear it's ugly head, and brainwash the public into believing that teachers were going to actually teach slang to students instead of proper English.

Some students who are not in the right enviornment pick up certain bad habits using grammar, and I felt that this was a good way to correct the bad language. I didn't see anything wrong with that, and I certainly am for the betterment of education for students in urban communities.

Ebonics was not created as some type of atonement for black culture. It would be wise for people not to believe the media when they attempt to sell this notion to the public. If you are somehow embarassed by Ebonics, then pick up some information about it then you will understand the meaning of this controversial subject.

DunkMachine
Feb 19th, 2003, 05:26 AM
That's true Harloo but I think I know what Cybelle is getting at. Ebonics is something blackfolk can be ridiculed for, for it's improper grammar compared to english. Bad grammar can often indicate poor schooling. Cybelle seems like a progressive woman and I can understand her sentiments but I don't feel Ebonics is a source of shame.

I can tell you a story about my country (Suriname) and what place the dialect, that is spoken there, has in it's community. That dialect has eliments of english, spanish, dutch and portugese in it but isn't really a written language. Therefore the children here are taught the proper languages and "The tongue of Suriname" is only spoken by adults. We believe that speaking in dialect represses education because it's basically a useless language that was spoken by slaves in the old days and really has little place in modern society.

I believe Ebonics is no different. Conserving lingo of old is a beautiful thing but we have to know it's place in modern society.

Sorry for posting this on a tennis messageboard but I felt I needed to share this with some of the people here.

victory1
Feb 19th, 2003, 05:32 AM
DunkMachine, my best friend is from Suriname, I hear a lot of stories about the Bush Negros, I know exactly what you're talking about!:wavey:

DunkMachine
Feb 19th, 2003, 05:50 AM
Ah yes, descendants of the liberated slaves who settled with the in the forests. I don't like that name, I prefer the name Joeka instead.

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 19th, 2003, 06:28 AM
Wow, you're actually quoting your income. I think that one act sums you up nicely. You are officially on ignore "sister".

BombsAway
Feb 19th, 2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by cybelledarkholmexx
Wow, you're actually quoting your income. I think that one act sums you up nicely. You are officially on ignore "sister".

Good......and stop ignoring that "soul sista" trying to get out.

A4
Feb 19th, 2003, 02:43 PM
I'm all for ebonics..........

acesmasher
Feb 19th, 2003, 02:45 PM
It is quite obvious that many people here are equating blacks with African Americans. The last time I checked there were a lot of black people living in Africa, the Caribbean etc.

There are more languages spoken in Africa than on any continent in the world. The fact that they are not widely spoken does not make them inferior in anyway. English is not a superior language by virtue of it being widely spoken. English is only widely spoken because England colonised more countries than any other. Infact, linguist are now beginning to realise that some of these African languages are even richer in expressitivity than any european language. Eubonics and other dialects of english, such as Jamaican patois try to capure some of the expressitivity of these African languages. It is not a lack of education that has lead to these dialects. The Africans brought to the Americas were forced to abandon their way of life but they kept what they could. This include aspects of their own language even if it meant that they had to mixed it with the language they were forced to keep. I can speak especially for the Jamaican patois which uses a lot of words and expressions from Twi, which is a major Ghanian language. It gives me great delight when I meet a Ghanain and he can actually recognise some of the words from my patois, some of whose meaning has been lost to my people.

So in defense of eubonics and patois, it is black peoples way of keeping aspects of our ancient culture which we were so cruelly forced to abandon. I believe I am as educated as any other poster on this board and I must say that english for me is a formal language, a language I use to communicate with people who cannot understand my dialect. As for my dialect, it is the language which expresses by soul and english can never even come close to matching that.

Rocketta
Feb 19th, 2003, 04:04 PM
Gosh, Thanks Harloo, DunkMaster, & especially acemasher(great first post btw)!!

That is what I wanted say but I knew I didn't have the background to go into it in depth as much as I would have needed to to get my point across.

I wasn't exactly sure if Cybelle and Bombsaway were actually arguing about the same thing???

Thanks again guys for your posts. :)

BombsAway
Feb 19th, 2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by acesmasher
It gives me great delight when I meet a Ghanain and he can actually recognise some of the words from my patois, some of whose meaning has been lost to my people.


Thank you Acesmasher!!

It's about "INCLUSIVITY" Blacks in New Orleans speak different than blacks in Charleston, S.C. Blacks in California speak different than blacks in Brooklyn. Who and I to pass judgment. I enjoy hearing the dialects - they tickle me. I love the uniqueness.

Nothing is like being at a African festival and listening to those native tongues.

You can actually feel the words.

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 19th, 2003, 06:23 PM
So in defense of eubonics and patois, it is black peoples way of keeping aspects of our ancient culture which we were so cruelly forced to abandon. I believe I am as educated as any other poster on this board and I must say that english for me is a formal language, a language I use to communicate with people who cannot understand my dialect. As for my dialect, it is the language which expresses by soul and english can never even come close to matching that.

Interesting. I find it funny that some people, this has no bearing on you, strive to keep aspects of an ancient culture (patois not ebonics because ebonics is not based on an african language) yet so readily embrace western religion. Was not the various tribal religions cruelly taken from our ancestors? Yet there is no outcry against christianity?

Why not simply learn the language of your country of origin? However, saying that I still believe patois has historical value because it does indeed contain aspects from the past african languages. Does eubonics hold the same value? Not in my opinion.

Ebonics is not cultural its a social construct of the poor. I have seen white people from poor areas in the south who speak the same way. So are they considered "black"? Black culture (african american) is rich and diverse and full of great and wonderful things. Ebonics is the result of economic underdevelopment. If a child came up to you and said 2 + 2 = five, would you not correct them? Some on here would label it mathebonics and cheer the child. Why do some people want equate ignorance with culture is beyond me.

All I have to say is look to the elite of our people. The leaders of past and present. Fredick Dougalas. Phyllis Wheatly. W.E.B Dubois. I can go on and on. Did these people strive to educate themselves agains insurmountable odds just to have their great great grandchildren embrace a life of "dis" and "dat"?

Rocketta
Feb 19th, 2003, 07:21 PM
Cybelle, I think they worked hard to prove that whatever a person of color wanted to do they could acheive it. I don't think they would be upset with people who didn't feel the need or want to talk, or act like them. I think you'll are both right and both wrong.

I do believe that children should learn english in the correct way and that it is the schools responsibility to make that happen. However, there are speech patterns of "some" African Americans that are rooted in slave times and Africa. All you have to do is speak and listen to the Gullah people of South Carolina to know that's true.

I think there is a huge difference between "slang" and ebonics. Which is why I said I wasn't sure if you and BombsAway were arguing about the same thing. I think BombsAway is talking about slang. Using contemporary words and phrasing that originated in the AA community. I think you are talking about "ebonics" a language, dialect that some African-American people speak which is based on the poor education system and the fact that their ancestors were never taught the language correctly so they never taught their children correctly.

However, I have to say I think that if we hold contempt for our own people because of phrasing or the use of ebonics I don't find that appeasing. I mean language is a living thing. It changes and morphs continually. We as Americans do not speak english like the British. Would we accept a British person telling us that "Americans" are ignorant cause they speak "American English" and don't bother to learn the language correctly?? I don't think that would fly with many of us.

acesmasher
Feb 19th, 2003, 07:29 PM
cybelle,

I beg to disagree with your comments. Black people in the African diaspora has integrated many aspects of African culture with the European culture they were forced to take on, even christianity. I don't know much about African American culture but in the Caribbean, christianity has been fully integrated into the African culture. In Jamaica we have churches called spiritual baptist which incorporate pocomania (derived from an ancient Ghanaian spirit worship ceremony) with Christianity. In Trinidad and Tobago, shangoism (a Nigerian form of idol worship) has been fully incorporated into christian worship. In Haiti, the worship of the voodoo god Ogun has been incorporated in a uniquely Haitian form of Roman Catholicism. The list goes on.

Besides, it is not only people of African descent who have "modified" christianity to suit their culture. In fact Sunday was originally a day for the worship of the pagan sun god. The christian day of worship was changed to Sunday so that these pagan worshippers could reconcile it with their culture. It seems that no matter what race or culture we are from, we all have a basic need to retain our native culture.

Eubonics may not have words from the African languages but who is to say that it is not based on an innate need to identify with that culture. It is fairly expressive, where english is perhaps not. Anyway, being able and willing to speak eubonics does not mean that you have to ignore the english language. You can be fluent in both. Come to the UK (where I am now) and see how many people here speak fluent english. Very very few, there are also many dialects of english here. Some of these dialects are even more difficult to understand than patois! I believe I am fairly fluent in english and patois. I am trying to learn chinese also because I believe it will become more important in the future.

There need not be any debate about languages, they all have their purpose.

Rtael
Feb 19th, 2003, 07:46 PM
haha...this is all pretty damn funny.


Why is it a big deal anyway about the way some people speak? I'm a white male but I use "slang" alot because I live in New Orleans where most of the city is Black and most of the Black people speak that way. Big deal. Get Over it. IT's not Important


LET ME REPEAT THIS FOR YOU
IT IS NOT IMPORTANT.
Why would you ever make such a big deal out of something that doesn't even matter? ';'

And Cybelle, bombs and serena are both pretty damn stupid, but looks to me like your trying to catch up to them pretty damn quick in that department. Just LEAVE IT ALONE, and get on with your life, geeze.

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 19th, 2003, 08:36 PM
Guys its not the same.

Rocketta, I know all about Geechee or as you say Gullah. It is not the same as eubonics.

slang: is fine. its like candy for language.

eubonics: I am sorry, but eubonics is not a dialect. Its not based on anything african at all. What it is a glaring representation of someone's shoddy education. How can you defend that?

dialects: like patois or kreyol is in my opinion are great things and have cultural value and significance.

I also know the deal of how different people have incorporated christianity by force. The pagans were exterminated and hunted down until they conformed. The haitians were persecuted right through the 20th century. Their religion only survived because they didnt see a difference between loa and saints of christianity.

However with that said we are not talking about that issue. The people of the carribbean don't speak eubonics. They don't.

In America there is no remnants of arfrican culture in eubonics. And in my opinion it can do nothing but harm our people by barring them from opportunities within our society. The fact that some children speak this way already indicates that they have had doors opportunity shut in their face. What are they going to go to a college entrance interview speaking like that? A job interiview?

LET ME REPEAT THIS FOR YOU
IT IS NOT IMPORTANT

you are wrong. I suggest you ask your black friends to help you with an experiment. Have them both or several of them hopefully, complete a job application(same qualifications) and when they go in to interview ask one to speak eubonics and the others, if they even can, speak mainstream aka proper english.

I thinK I can tell you who will get the job.

Didn't you read about the two researchers, Marianne Bertrand of Chicago and Sendhil Mullainathan from M.I.T. They simply used "black" names on applications along with others with so called "mainstream" names to see who would get a call back. Do I need to tell you the result of this experiment? This was all over the news.

So if people are willing to discriminate just because of a name then how can you say it doesn't matter? Sorry but it does. This isn't never never land. Its the united states of america, you know the country with a history of discrimination.

Perhaps you think it doesn't matter becuase it doesnt apply to you? I'm not being vindictive. I've noticed that most straight people don't give a damn about gay rights. I've noticed that most men think women are already treated equally in society. My point is that if you are not a member of the marginalized group then nine times out of ten you probably dont care about their problems.

kiwifan
Feb 19th, 2003, 08:51 PM
My 1 cent:

I think you all have good points (even the ones who are just saying, shut up it ain't a big deal)

Slang is fine as long as you know "proper corporate American" and can carry yourself in the appropriate manner in various situations.

I use urban slang, a little Aussie/Kiwi/English slang and lots of other stuff that I have picked up along the way in my life.

I don't care for the Ebonics issue beyond the concept of teachers using slang to reach out to kids and encouraging them to learn "proper American" while respecting their own slang.

I think equating anything that smacks of lack of education with "being black" is silly; but I would equate it with the English working class and that-no offense intended- unintelligable Cockney (love that rhyming slang, "Get me another Britney, Love") as a sign of working class pride in opposition to "the Queens English".

Actually I have found that few Brits speak "the Queen's English" in their regular daily life and I know my London friends think Northerners speak ignorantly and the Northerners think Liverpool residents are the worst and so on and so on...

As long as you know the difference between how to interview for a job and how to joke with your friends; no matter where you are from and what you say, I think you're on the right track.

GogoGirl
Feb 19th, 2003, 09:10 PM
IMO & for the most part - ebonics evolved from ignorance. For God sakes - but the black race was not allowed to learn how to read and write on the plantations - so they learned how to speak from their masters and overseers. Many of the overseers did not speak perfect english either - for their education was limited. So the black learned how to speak bad english from the ones that enslaved them.

I don't hink we can fault everyone that has spoken or speaks broken english - because they were not allowed to learn it properly since slavery time. One could have been beaten half to death for trying to learn how to read. And when it was decreed that blacks could learn - they were given an inferior education. And that still holds true in many cities and states - and not just the south.

Many blacks couldn't afford to go to school - or schools were tooooo far for them to get to. Many had to continue working in the fields or at a white person's house - so learning the king's english was not a priority to them.

Part of the problem - and in some cases - the teachers and parents did not take the time to correct children's english to ensure they were learning it and speaking it properly.

In today's world - one doesn't have to look far to find the biggest fault as to why some blacks speak ebonics. Evidently - the teachers didn't care to ensure they learned. Many children dropped out of school, etc. I mean - we can go on and on.

I do believe that it is very important to teach the chidren the correct way to speak english - but I don't knock the ones that revert back to their old way of speaking. Some are too lazy to learn correct speaking, and some feel as if it is too late to learn it -and this also goes for the older folks that speak ebonics.

Some like the ones from South Carolina mixed up some of their African dialect w/the english dialect - because they were not willing to give up some of their African language. They were trying to hold on to something African.

The Gullah speech is a treasured speech to some SC blacks. They've passed on that way of speaking to their children and grandchildren. They also supposedly brought words from Africa that we use everyday, like - "Hello & Hi." There are many words we use to day that are attributed to the Gullah speech.

IMO - some blacks are embarrassed to hear some of their kind speak in ebonics - but they shouldn't be - because blacks weren't allowed to learn it or speak it for over 400 years. Frederick Douglas used to trick his little white friends into helping him learn the abc's. He was determined to learn them and he did. He would learn one letter - write it on the fence - and a white child would write the next letter and so on - so he turned it into a game of some kind.

In a perfect society - surely - everyone would and should be afforded the opportunity to learn - but alas - that hasn't not been the case in America. It is sad but certainly true. I think things are changing - and hopefully - everyone will be afforded the opportunity to learn to read and write the king's proper english before it is all said and done.

The subject is a complex one indeed.

acesmasher
Feb 19th, 2003, 09:17 PM
kiwifan, you are right on the ball. It is just a matter of knowing when, where and how to speak euboincs or english. Nothing is wrong with speaking eubonics with family and friends. However, it might be more appropriate to speak english when in a more formal setting. No one here has suggested that eubonics should replace english!

Saying that eubonics is a result of improper education and that speaking english suggests proper education is an incorrect dichotomy of the situation. Many educated people prefer speaking a dialect because it is informal and perhaps a bit more expressive. I believe my english is quite good but I hardly ever speak it. I prefer to speak my own patois because I enjoy speaking it and because it feels much more natural.

Eubonics is not the cause of problems for African American, there is nothing negative about it (well, except when swear words are included).

Rocketta
Feb 19th, 2003, 11:09 PM
omg, y'all (more contribution to the slang being used on this thread. ;) )!!

Anyway this morning there was this documentary on HBO about poor folks in Mississippi. Its called

LaLee's Kin: The Legacy of Cotton (2001)

You would not believe it. I thought I was watching something set around the depression era but sadly it was the 90's. They should how the children weren't going to school cause they didn't have any paper or pencils. Their mother wasn't going to get it so the grandma (i think) was telling the kids well I have some nickels and pennies maybe you can buy some paper at school??? HEL-LO!! That was some scary stuff. It comes on again on HBO east @10:30am on the 24th.

Cybelle, I agree knowing "standard english" is the only way to be successful in the states, unless you play a sport, and I agree that it is the job of the schools to educate our children and the education system is failing them. Also, if anyone sees that documentary you will know that Vochers for private schools is not going to help those poor people. It is a mind set that has been passed down for generations. The only way to change that mindset is through the children when they are very young.

I mean they show the "grandma" take her grandson to school to find out what he needed and all the lady told her was pencils, tissues, notebook paper, and a couple of other things. The grandmother went home and said I don't know what to do I can't get those things right now?? The kid is already messed up in Kindergarden. :sad: :sad: :sad:

check it out!

http://www.hbo.com/apps/schedule/ScheduleServlet?ACTION_DETAIL=DETAIL&ID=67131

BombsAway
Feb 20th, 2003, 04:19 AM
You should see the documentaries about the poor people in Kentucky.

They NEVER go to school and rarely bathe. Incest is rampant. their teeth are brown (if they have any). They run around without shoes....they are always drunk.

...and lest not talk about the language. I believe they are called Hillbillies.

Rocketta
Feb 20th, 2003, 04:23 AM
BombsAway, I'm sure all people stuck in the quagmire of poverty are a sad site to see. :sad: :sad:

persond
Feb 20th, 2003, 05:17 AM
I am so sadden by the way my brothers and sisters have allowed the "system" to again conquer them. Just as the slave owners divided the slaves into the "house ******s" and the "field ******s", to keep them separate. For the goal was to "divide and conquer". You have allowed yourselves to be divided!!! Look around, and you'll notice the "detractors" have all left. Mission accomplished.!!!

Although, the discussion of language and it's cultural effects have been quite enlightning, this topic would be better served in non-tennis. And, though we must remain diligent and alert, let us not let the "enemy" divide and therefore conquer us. Please, let us be forever steadfast!!! Peace out!!!

kiwifan
Feb 20th, 2003, 05:53 AM
I don't mind letting the haters know that all black people don't think alike.

We are individuals, with a wide variety of opinions that might conflict but we have one thing in common that the haters can't do a damn thing about...

...we have the best taste in tennis players!!!

As for your analogy (kinda played out these days) I think you need to know how to act in "the house" and in "the field" if you're going to be a successful "slave" (Keep Massa off your back and maybe get a crack at keeping Miss Scarlet company when Massa gone on a trip into the big City).

I am so sorry I wrote that, but I couldn't resist (Since I'm the HNIC at work, I get to be Massa these days).

"Girlfriend Is Better" - Talking Heads

ico4498
Feb 23rd, 2003, 09:08 PM
I pondered entering this discussion. Realized I couldn't ignore it, so 'cuse this junior's two cents.

Any serious look at language reveals some obvious patterns.

1. For colonial tongues, syntax and spelling aren't universally recognized. That's true for the good 'ole USA and the motherland of English ... cockney is another language.

2. What's in a word's history? Bigheads call it etymology. Lots of english words are "derived" from the greek etc. ... Where did isolated black communities get their words? Surely, as cybelledarkholmexx suggests, we "derived" gobbledygook. Black Americans existed for four hundred years without language! If this poster's observations are correct, Black Americans are unique in the annals of history. Without language were we even human?

Small sidetrack.

An Englishman inherited a plantation back in colonial times. He consulted associates about local conditions, and was assured that English was understood, though not properly spoken by the natives.

He arrives in the colony and realizes a need for some donkeys. So he heads out to the market.

This is a smart dude, he's aware of the need to comparison shop before making a purchase. After checking relative prices, one vendor seems to proffer an irresistible bargain.

"Bwana, the donkey don't look right." Offers the linguistically challenged vendor..

But this a smart dude. He checks the teeth, hooves ... even does a field test for colic.

Still the vendor insists, "Bwana, the donkey don't look right."

Leery of a wearisome vendor stuck in repetitious gobbledygook, bwana closes the deal.

Next day he's back in the market and angry. He locates the vendor and vents.

"How could you defraud me so shamelessly? You sold me a blind ass."

To which the vendor replies, " But Bwana, I told you, the donkey don't look right!"

Education is a two way street. Get what you can from institutional knowledge. Cherish information you've acquired through family and history as culture.

Music, food or language can't make you black. Individually or collectively. But they're all part of the experience, revel in them.

Anyone who suggests the language, food and music of our fore parents is meaningless ... has something to learn.

As Sister Judy Mowatt immortalized in wax ...

"Remove the shackles from your mind."

DunkMachine
Feb 24th, 2003, 01:01 AM
Okay I'm gonna give y'all ( ;) )two examples. I hope some of you remember my previous post about Suriname and how teaching and language are handled over there. Now before you read on try and invision the Netherlands as being kinda like US.....

As you know Suriname was one of a many Dutch colonies(British too at some point). After the abolition of slavery the "former" slaves had to be educated in order to make progress. At that time most of the people spoke "Sranang Tongo" (spoken by the creoles). You understand that textbooks and all other literature was predominantly written in dutch so the older generations made it somewhat of a rule that young children had to learn how to speak dutch before anything else. Even today it still is considered taboo for children to speak Sranang Tongo because it has been a part of tradition for so long. Adults spoke the language to their children but they allways replied in dutch. The Surinamers are one of the best integrated immigrants in the Netherlands because of this. Allthough being black still had it strides.

Now there's also another former dutch colony called the Antillies. Like Sranang tongo their language "Papiamentu" has African, Dutch, Portugese and spanish influences. Eventhough Dutch is the main language of every goverment administration their grasp of Dutch leaves to be desired. Children are confronted with Papiamentu at a regular basis and the only time they do speak dutch is either at school or when speaking to tourists etc.
You can ofcourse guess how they inegrate in the Netherlands. Sadly a large part of the antillies are less educated because of this. Therefore most of them are arrear in Dutch society and have the highest crimerates here in the Netherlands.

First of all I want to say that we can all debate whether Ebonics has cultural value or not. However saying that it's place in black society is insignificant is nonsense.
Sranang Tongo, Papiamentu and Patois have great cultural and historical significance. They are truely languages we should take great pride in. But we also have to know what their place has to be in our lives. Books aren't written in these languages and it should therefore be a priority to know the "common" languages. To be proud and conserving your culture is one thing but to have it blocking progress is ignorant.

Besides what would our ancestors think at this moment? Are we doing them a service by keeping those tongues alive that were initially forced upon them? Does it bring us closer to them? Would they rather have us thriving and using our full potential? Something they could not have done, but could only hope for their children. What good will speaking Ebonics or Sranang Tongo ultimately do?

Is it not to communicate is to learn

ico4498
Feb 24th, 2003, 03:08 AM
Nice post DunkMachine.

There are a multitude of books written in so called "patois". Ever heard of Luise Bennet, Roger Mais, Vic Reid, etc. ...

The entire body of Bob Marley's social commentary is written natively. You've either got something to say (whatever your chosen tongue), or not.

Bright Red
Feb 24th, 2003, 03:10 AM
This board certainly has its moments. This is a deep conversation.

Cybelle, you rock! No joke.

I have to say that I'm with Rocketta in that I can see both sides of the argument, though. We can't just write off Ebonics: it does have value. It's probably hard for many to see; but that's to be expected.

Ebonics is at once both a triumph and failure. As some of you have pointed out, it's the result of the failure of America to live up to its responsibility of providing generations of blacks a proper education. And in many ways it reflects the linguistic history of slaves and the lingering social isolation of the black community. Despite the failure on the part of America, black Americans made do, and triumphed and developed a way to communicate all the same; and ebonics, although rife with grammatical errors, serves its purpose.

To discover the value of ebonics, you must realize two important things. First, being able to speak proper English doesn't make you intelligent. There are some very smart and very wise people who speak only Ebonics (there are also quite a few dummies who speak English very well). Second, ebonics is the only way to reach some people. So if you want to teach them or even learn from them, you wonít be able to do so unless you speak their language/dialect. For example, all Spanish teachers of English students also speak English. It clearly has value for this reason.

I'm not arguing that Ebonics should be perpetuated, but the reality is that it's still spoken, and probably will continue to be spoken well after all of us have passed on.

The broader question is whether an attempt should be made to supplant Ebonics with proper English. The answers seems obvious especially when you consider that in reality most black people for which this is applicable are already trying to do so. For they realize that, like it or not, in order to succeed in just about anything in today's society, you need to be able to speak proper English. Indeed, itís a requirement for everyone from the whitest white man to the most recent immigrant. However, maybe the answer isnít so obvious. Ebonics (I donít be fluent in it, btw ;) ) seems like a rich language and has contributed to mainstream English (ďainítĒ, for example). Some might be sad to see it go.

VRULES
Feb 24th, 2003, 03:14 AM
Giblestomb did win two majors with venus!

ico4498
Feb 24th, 2003, 03:20 AM
"It's probably hard for many to see; but that's to be expected."

Only folks ashamed of their heritage fail to see the richness in their culture.

Bright Red
Feb 24th, 2003, 03:36 AM
ico

That's not what I meant. I can see why people would like to see Ebonics disappear altogether, and it has to do with things other than shame.

Mainly, you don't have to go to school to speak Ebonics. Hence, it's a pretty good sign that you're uneducated if you're an adult still speaking it and only it. The unfair part about it is that ALL Americans speak a dialect of English in some form. The black dialect is unfortunately one of the dialects that associated with stupidity or lack of class.

Take for example the many instances of grammatical mistakes spoken in certain white dialects (for example, answering the phone with, "Hello, it's me", instead of "It's I". That's considered OK, and I think that English books are being rewritten to allow an indirect pronoun to follow an intransitive verb in this instance. However, I doubt we'll every see books being re-written to allow someone to say, "It be me", but then again that would be two mistakes.

BombsAway
Feb 24th, 2003, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by ico4498

Only folks ashamed of their heritage fail to see the richness in their culture.

BINGO!

It's preposterous to tell folks what they SHOULD and SHOULDN'T say.

ico4498
Feb 24th, 2003, 06:18 AM
No Bright Red. I understand and appreciate your contribution.

Though, if black folks devalue their own expressions ... what a disrespect to our history and culture.

DunkMachine
Feb 24th, 2003, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by ico4498
Nice post DunkMachine.

There are a multitude of books written in so called "patois". Ever heard of Luise Bennet, Roger Mais, Vic Reid, etc. ...

The entire body of Bob Marley's social commentary is written natively. You've either got something to say (whatever your chosen tongue), or not.

Ofcourse when I'm referring to books I mean schoolbooks, like math and history etc. There have books written in SranangTongo before but only recently have they established spelling rules.

I'm assuming isn't much different. I apoligize if was inaccurate in my assumptions.

Originally posted by BombsAway
BINGO!

It's preposterous to tell folks what they SHOULD and SHOULDN'T say.

Is it? How far would one get in society by speaking fluent Ebonics/SranangT and poor english/dutch. It is essential to posses the fundamentals in order to expand. If it's either sports or education.

No, I'm siding with Cybelle on this issue. She is right. Maybe you all resent her for saying Ebonics is a product of poor education. But mispronounciation and miseducation are the main cause of all existing dialects.
Please try and look at the bigger picture.