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Seles_Beckham
Feb 15th, 2003, 03:48 PM
Anti-war protests Saturday drew hundreds of thousands of people in cities around the world — from London to Canberra — united in their opposition to a threatened U.S.-led strike against Iraq.

The British capital saw one of the largest marches for peace on a day of global protest — at least a million people, organizers claimed, although initial police estimates were about half that. They hoped to heap pressure on Prime Minister Tony Blair who has been Europe's biggest supporter of the tough U.S. policy.

"I feel they should take more time and find an alternative, and not see the only solution to the problem in bombarding the country," said Maria Harvey, 58, a child psychologist, who said she hadn't marched since the protests against the Gulf War in 1991.

There was another huge turnout in Rome, where many in the crowd displayed rainbow "peace" flags. Police offered no estimate, but organizers claimed 3 million people participated.

Hundreds of thousands marched through Berlin, backing a strong anti-war stance spearheaded by Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder. Police estimated the crowd at between 300,000 and 500,000.

"We're not taking to the streets to demonstrate against the United States, or for Iraq. We're taking to the streets because we want a peaceful resolution of the Iraq conflict," said Michael Sommer, head of the German Federation of Unions.

In Syria, a nation on the front line if war comes, some 200,000 protesters marched through Damascus. In Bulgaria, Hungary, South Korea, Australia, Malaysia and Thailand, demonstrations attracted thousands, while the crowds were in the hundreds or less in Romania, Bosnia, Hong Kong, Indian-controlled Kashmir and Moscow.

Police estimated that 60,000 turned out in Oslo, Norway, 50,000 in bitter cold in Brussels, while about 35,000 gathered peacefully in frigid Stockholm.

Crowds were estimated at 10,000 in Amsterdam and Copenhagen, 5,000 in Capetown and 4,000 in Johannesburg in South Africa, 5,000 in Tokyo, 3,000 in Vienna and 2,000 in Dhaka, Bangladesh.

"War is not a solution, war is a problem," Czech philosopher Erazim Kohak told a crowd of about 500 in Prague.

Anti-war activists hoped to draw 100,000 people to the streets in New York City later for a protest near the United Nations Police were planning extensive security that included sharpshooters and radiation detectors.

In Baghdad, tens of thousands of Iraqis, many carrying Kalashnikovs, demonstrated across their country to support Saddam Hussein and denounce the United States.

"Our swords are out of their sheaths, ready for battle," read one of hundreds of banners carried by marchers along Palestine Street, a broad Baghdad avenue.

Many Iraqis hoisted giant pictures of Saddam and some burned American and Israeli flags, while in neighboring Damascus, protesters chanted anti-U.S. and anti-Israeli slogans as they marched to the People's Assembly.

Najjah Attar, a former Syrian cabinet minister, accused Washington of attempting to change the region's map. "The U.S. wants to encroach upon our own norms, concepts and principles," she said in Damascus. "They are reminding us of the Nazi and fascist times."

Braving biting cold and snow flurries in Ukraine, some 2,000 people rallied in Kiev's central square. Anti-globalists led a peaceful "Rock Against War" protest joined by communists, socialists, Kurds and pacifists.

Natalya Mostenko, 45, was one of several people in Kiev carrying a portrait of Saddam. "He opposes American dictatorship and so do I," she said.


In the Bosnian city of Mostar, about a hundred Muslims and Croats united for an anti-war protest — the first such cross-community action in seven years in a place where ethnic divisions here remain tense despite the 1995 Bosnian peace agreement.

"We want to say that war is evil and that we who survived one know that better than anyone," said Majda Hadzic, 54.

In divided Cyprus, about 500 Greeks and Turks braved heavy rain for a march which briefly blocked the end of a runway at a British air base.

Several thousand protesters in Athens, Greece, unfurled a giant banner across the wall of the ancient Acropolis — "NATO U.S. and EU equals War" — before heading toward the U.S. Embassy.

Police fired tear gas in clashes with several hundred anarchists wearing hoods and crash helmets, who broke from the otherwise peaceful march to smash store windows and throw a gasoline bomb at a newspaper office.

In the Greek port of Thessaloniki, an estimated 10,000 people protested.

About 2,000 demonstrators rallied in Sofia, the Bulgarian capital. In Moscow, 300 people marched to the U.S. Embassy, with one placard urging Russian President Vladimir Putin to "be firmer with America."

Six hundred people rallied in downtown Hong Kong, as did 50 or so in Almaty, Kazakhstan.

Police in Srinagar in Indian-controlled Kashmir detained at least 35 protesters after about a hundred people, mostly supporters of the Communist Party of India (Marxist), marched through the city.

Demonstrators clogged a downtown park in Seoul, South Korea, to chant and listen to anti-war speeches.

"I am scared, but the Iraqi people must be more scared than I am. I share their fear," said Eun Kook, a 23-year-old student planning to go to Iraq. "My mission is to sympathize with the Iraqi people and to tell the world that we oppose war."

The day of protest began in New Zealand, where thousands gathered in cities across the country. Over Auckland harbor, a plane trailed a banner reading "No War — Peace Now," at the America's Cup sailing competition.

Between 3,000 and 5,000 people marched through a suburb of Canberra, the Australian capital, to protest government support for U.S. policy. Australia has already committed 2,000 troops to the Persian Gulf for possible action.

In Tokyo, where 6,000 protested on Friday, about 300 activists gathered near the U.S. Embassy. One placard depicted a U.S. flag emblazoned with a swastika.

Demonstrators in Asia expressed skepticism that Iraq posed a threat to world security, saying that President Bush was seeking to extend American control over oil reserves.

"We must stop the war as it is part of the United States' plot for global domination," protest organizer Nasir Hashim told 1,500 cheering activists outside the U.S. Embassy in the Malaysian capital Kuala Lumpur.

matthias
Feb 15th, 2003, 04:05 PM
i heard it is the boggest protest in germany history :)

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Feb 15th, 2003, 04:22 PM
lol something like that too in Norway, matthias :) over 60000 marched through Oslo city today :)

LeonHart
Feb 15th, 2003, 04:30 PM
heh...alot of ppl dun want war, but i think bush already made up his mind to attack Iraq, no matter what the UN says. The gas prices are rising like krazy here in the US...just becuz we're on the brink of war. :(

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Feb 15th, 2003, 04:33 PM
lol it's not only in US the gas price is jumping :eek: it cost about 1.50 US$ for one liter of gas here..... :o

ys
Feb 15th, 2003, 04:35 PM
Do they carry slogans "Long live Saddam" and "Let Saddam rule and starve his nation forever"?

Seles_Beckham
Feb 15th, 2003, 04:51 PM
LONDON
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030215/i/1045331054.4161142880.jpg


PARIS
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030215/capt.1045331068.france_antiwar_iraq_par103.jpg

AMSTERDAM
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030215/i/1045327489.2550390875.jpg

BERLIN
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030215/capt.1045327311.germany_antiwar_iraq_ber108.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030215/capt.1045327099.germany_antiwar_iraq_ber110.jpg

ROME
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030215/i/1045326137.4026712137.jpg

Seles_Beckham
Feb 15th, 2003, 04:53 PM
LOVE THIS ONE
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030215/i/1045325759.4093812817.jpg

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Feb 15th, 2003, 04:55 PM
great pics :)

lmao @ the last one :D

rated_next
Feb 15th, 2003, 05:03 PM
nice to see people not supporting the war :D

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Feb 15th, 2003, 05:06 PM
there is still hope for the human kind ;)

LucasArg
Feb 15th, 2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by ys
Do they carry slogans "Long live Saddam" and "Let Saddam rule and starve his nation forever"?

Do you always has to be such a dumb ass?:rolleyes:

Being against war doesn't mean people like Saddam.

Seles_Beckham
Feb 15th, 2003, 06:06 PM
Thank you LucasArg

Being agains the war it doesn't mean people support Saddam, THEY SUPPORT IRAQI PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUFFERD FOR THE PAST 12 YEARS WITH THE SACTIONS

THE WAR IS THE WORST SOLUTION.

ys
Feb 15th, 2003, 06:06 PM
Being against war doesn't mean people like Saddam.

Saddam has to be removed. It would be better for anyone. No one wants war. Do you know other way to remove him?

ys
Feb 15th, 2003, 06:10 PM
THEY SUPPORT IRAQI PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUFFERD FOR THE PAST 12 YEARS WITH THE SACTIONS

If Saddam isn't taken out now, they will suffer for another 12 hours.

THE WAR IS THE WORST SOLUTION.

And probably the only one..

Seles_Beckham
Feb 15th, 2003, 06:12 PM
LONDON
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030215/capt.1045334647.britain_antiwar_iraq_lon144.jpg

NEW YORK
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030215/capt.1045334549.anti_war_protests_nyr105.jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030215/capt.1045334157.anti_war_protests_nyr104.jpg


British singer Ms Dynamite address a rally against war with Iraq in
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030215/i/1045334185.3557253224.jpg

LONDON
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030215/i/1045333902.4161151081.jpg

Seles_Beckham
Feb 15th, 2003, 06:16 PM
Australian capital Canberra

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20030215/mdf209397.jpg

lONDON
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030215/capt.1045333101.britain_antiwar_iraq_lon826.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030215/capt.1045333097.britain_antiwar_iraq_lon836.jpg

Car Key Boi
Feb 15th, 2003, 06:20 PM
have yuo noticed that the main objectors in Europe are the Bellgims, the Germans and the French

in other words, the 3 Eurotard nations who are pushing the hardest for this United States of Eurotard

lets face facts, all of yuo tards who are pissing and moaning, don't really care for yuor average Iraqi (who would be delighted to see all the American and Eurotards burn in Hell)

yuo're just pissed that it's America who's flexing her military muscle again, if it was say Kuwait who was planning to invade Iraq, no of yuo tards would be saying shit

troof!

- Car Key Boi

Frau Antje
Feb 15th, 2003, 07:45 PM
finally it happens something

(but will Bush care about it? I doubt)

Tapatio
Feb 15th, 2003, 07:52 PM
"War is not a solution, war is a problem," Czech philosopher Erazim Kohak told a crowd of about 500 in Prague.

I couldn't agree more. NO war!!

Volcana
Feb 15th, 2003, 09:11 PM
Just got back from the rally in New York. It was/is very cold. Large numbers of people were kept away from the rally by police, who penned up some groups of protesters over a mile away. I got there early and still couldn't get with half a kilometer of Daj Hammerskold Plaza. Organizers said 500,00 to a million people. The official report will be about 10-20 thousand. I was on first avenue, and looking south, I though I saw about 50,000 people. And most of the protesters were not visible to me, being on 2nd and 3rd avenues. Police on horseback were used on 3rd avenue to keep the crowd in check.

I stuck it out for four hours, then came on home. It's a nice start for me in terms of getting back into the social protest movement. One thing frightened me. I brought my video camera so I could get some people takes on what was going on. Quite a few declined the invitation to speak on camera.

A lot of Americans are afriad of the American governement. That's something for the rest of the world to keep in mind, while they're wondering who's going to stop the madman in the White House. We have secret police, and they have the legal right to take you, keep you, and neither admit to their family they have you, nor allow you legal council. That's the United States of America today. Don't feel sorry for us (ha), we brought this on ourselves. But remember, ring wing death squads have a long and not too long distant history inthe UNited States. They killed THOUSANDS, of civil rights workers in the UNited States inthe 40's 50's and 60's. Not to mention Medgar Evers, Martin Luther King, Robert and John Kennedy, Fred Hampton, virtually an entire generation of leadership of their political opposition. They operated here the same way the operated around the globe. Those same people are in power now. They prefer to be more circumspect now. Poor Trent Lott admitted he felt the country would have been better off if terrorism against Blacks hadn't been stopped, and he..... lost a largely ceremonial post in goverenment. Didn't cost him a dime. He's still in the Senate.

His punishment was for telling the truth, not the rank immorality and obscenity of his veiws. Becasue like-minded people control the government now.

I went to the rally because the people who control the US government now were are cold-blooded killers. You know something? They don't call it 'terrorism' when white-Americans use violence against civilians to achieve political aims. If they did, Sept 11th was only one in a long line of terrorist attacks against American cictizens on US soil.

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Feb 15th, 2003, 09:27 PM
the pic from the rally in Oslo today:

http://www.vg.no/bilder/bildarkiv/1045317701.jpg

Car Key Boi
Feb 15th, 2003, 09:42 PM
"A lot of Americans are afriad of the American governement. That's something for the rest of the world to keep in mind, while they're wondering who's going to stop the madman in the White House. We have secret police, and they have the legal right to take you, keep you, and neither admit to their family they have you, nor allow you legal council. That's the United States of America today"

Volcana, yuo really are a fucking moron, what a bunch of crap

we're the most liberal fucking nation in the world, yuo're allowed to protest against anything and anyone

it's only paranoid tards like yuo who come up with ridiculous suggestions that the police are gonna throw yuo in the back of a cruiser, never to be seen again, just because yuo stood in the middle of the street holding a sign saying Bush is a warmonger or whatever

Kiwi_Boy
Feb 15th, 2003, 09:44 PM
the one in auckland looked fun and was the largest rally since the 1980's (i think that was the largest one in this countries history) :D ...but the one in my city was nothing more than a very orderly gathering in a park over tea and scones(how typical of chch) :rolleyes:

ys
Feb 15th, 2003, 09:44 PM
Majority will always be afraid of change and will try to do nothing.. The same people who now are cursing Bush would not reelect a President who would raise a gas tax..

I am not a warmonger, but there are things in the world which are worse than war, when a war becomes a logical choice comparing to those things..

I do enjoy being a minority. Being a minority is what having fun is about..:)

Playa
Feb 15th, 2003, 09:56 PM
It's such a pitty to see such pictures, cleary some people haven't learned from their mistakes.

How many times shall we tell you that ,the " Brutal dictator " of bagdad is a butcher.??

France, russia and china are the only countries that have so far ,some lucratives oil's contracts with that tyranic regime.

you guys looks like a bunch of cowards supporting the butcher of Bagdad.
we are not !!!!!!!.
Plus , did the french needed a UN approval to send their troops to Ivory-cost ?

You can whine all you want, at the end of the day ,We'll tackle that tyrant from is pedestal. period.

spokenword73
Feb 16th, 2003, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by Car Key Boi
"A lot of Americans are afriad of the American governement. That's something for the rest of the world to keep in mind, while they're wondering who's going to stop the madman in the White House. We have secret police, and they have the legal right to take you, keep you, and neither admit to their family they have you, nor allow you legal council. That's the United States of America today"

Volcana, yuo really are a fucking moron, what a bunch of crap

we're the most liberal fucking nation in the world, yuo're allowed to protest against anything and anyone

it's only paranoid tards like yuo who come up with ridiculous suggestions that the police are gonna throw yuo in the back of a cruiser, never to be seen again, just because yuo stood in the middle of the street holding a sign saying Bush is a warmonger or whatever

I didn't think Volcana was referring to the demonstators being locked up, and denied counsel, but recently many Arab men and boys in LA were arrested and detained without counsel for days because of expired visas. And yes, the Patriot Act of America is a scary thing.:(

antonella
Feb 16th, 2003, 03:06 AM
but recently many Arab men and boys in LA were arrested and detained without counsel for days because of expired visas.


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...:sad: :sad: :sad:


We'll just cryyyyy me a fucking river..

yoyo
Feb 16th, 2003, 03:18 AM
Some wants a piece of the cake ! Other wants all the the cake !

evadafan
Feb 16th, 2003, 03:20 AM
It's nice to see some posters here on the boards showing common sense against the liberal peacemongers. Of course there are still plenty of idiots here. Most signs today should have read:

DOWN WITH BLAIR, ELECT CHAMBERLAIN!

DEATH TO ISRAEL! (Especially in Anti-Semitic France)

SADDAM ONLY GASSES IRAQIS, NOT AN SUV!

GIVE BIN LADEN NUKES AND NERVE AGENTS!

ys
Feb 16th, 2003, 03:48 AM
"War is not a solution, war is a problem," Czech philosopher Erazim Kohak told a crowd of about 500 in Prague.


Funny to hear it from a Czech. Munich!Munich!


In Baghdad, tens of thousands of Iraqis, many carrying Kalashnikovs, demonstrated across their country to support Saddam Hussein and denounce the United States.


My guess would be that those were all free-minded civilians, and a Kalashnikov is now a part of school uniform..




"Our swords are out of their sheaths, ready for battle," read one of hundreds of banners carried by marchers along Palestine Street, a broad Baghdad avenue.


Exactly. Swords against Tomahawks. Just like in 1991. Very effective.


Najjah Attar, a former Syrian cabinet minister, accused Washington of attempting to change the region's map. "The U.S. wants to encroach upon our own norms, concepts and principles," she said in Damascus. "They are reminding us of the Nazi and fascist times."


Nazis wanted to exterminate all Jews. Guess who wants to do that now.. America?

Braving biting cold and snow flurries in Ukraine, some 2,000 people rallied in Kiev's central square. Anti-globalists led a peaceful "Rock Against War" protest joined by communists, socialists, Kurds and pacifists.

Anti-globalists, communists, socialists, Kurds and pacifists. What a nice company.


Natalya Mostenko, 45, was one of several people in Kiev carrying a portrait of Saddam. "He opposes American dictatorship and so do I," she said.

Strongman with mustaches. Stalin nostalgy.

In the Bosnian city of Mostar, about a hundred Muslims and Croats united for an anti-war protest — the first such cross-community action in seven years in a place where ethnic divisions here remain tense despite the 1995 Bosnian peace agreement.
"We want to say that war is evil and that we who survived one know that better than anyone," said Majda Hadzic, 54.


Why didn't they do anti-war protests when America was about to bomb Bosnian Serbs?


Several thousand protesters in Athens, Greece, unfurled a giant banner across the wall of the ancient Acropolis — "NATO U.S. and EU equals War" — before heading toward the U.S. Embassy.

Police fired tear gas in clashes with several hundred anarchists wearing hoods and crash helmets, who broke from the otherwise peaceful march to smash store windows and throw a gasoline bomb at a newspaper office.

Yes, yes, storeowners and newspaper owners are all CIA agents..


In Moscow, 300 people marched to the U.S. Embassy, with one placard urging Russian President Vladimir Putin to "be firmer with America."

Those were probably the very same brave folks that were urinating at US Embassy when US bombed Milosevic. We are really proud to be of the same opinion as them.


"I am scared, but the Iraqi people must be more scared than I am. I share their fear," said Eun Kook, a 23-year-old student planning to go to Iraq. "My mission is to sympathize with the Iraqi people and to tell the world that we oppose war."

Your mission is to sympathize wth the Iraqi dictator and tell the world that you oppose democracy and freedom.


Between 3,000 and 5,000 people marched through a suburb of Canberra, the Australian capital, to protest government support for U.S. policy. Australia has already committed 2,000 troops to the Persian Gulf for possible action.

Indeed, even if those kind of folks kill Australians, it's not in Australia, it's in Indonesia, so why worry?


Demonstrators in Asia expressed skepticism that Iraq posed a threat to world security, saying that President Bush was seeking to extend American control over oil reserves.

Right, right, Arabian control is so much better..


"We must stop the war as it is part of the United States' plot for global domination," protest organizer Nasir Hashim told 1,500 cheering activists outside the U.S. Embassy in the Malaysian capital Kuala Lumpur. [/B]

Wake up , man. US don't have a plot for global domination. They have a global domination. But then why those very Muslim protesters were same passionate in asking those hated American dominators to bomb Serbs?

earthcrystal
Feb 16th, 2003, 03:51 AM
Please change the title of your thread Seles Beckham to reflect the truth: MILLIONS Worldwide Protest War in Iraq :)

Vocana, happy to hear that we were in the same place today.

We (my husband and I) began walking from 49th St. on 3rd Avenue at 11:30. The rally was at 1st and 51st. The police would not let us cut over to 2nd; let alone 1st Ave so we just continued marching down 3rd. They had us on the sidewalk until about 60th. Then we took the street!! We were still jammed shoulder to shoulder for the next 9 blocks where we were FINALLY allowed to to turn (at 69th St) and head toward 1st Avenue.

All the way up 1st Ave the police attempted to pen us in every couple of blocks behind barracades; only allowing a trickle of people thru every 20 minutes or so in order to frustrate people in hopes that they would give up and go home. WE DID NOT. At 64th Street we successful jumped the barricade and removed it. (I nearly got arrested but ran into the crowd). It's my understanding that this (storming blockades) happened numerous times throughout the day.

The pens were clearly an attempt to limit the number of people down at the rally point itself where most "news" cameras were positioned. And thereby report inaccurate numbers (big surprise!)

Through sheer determination we made it to the stage by 4:20 (nearly 5 hours later) just as things were wrapping up. At this time; there were still thousands of people penned up behind us for blocks and blocks.

I am so proud to be numbered among the people all over the world today that braved the elements; police and media apathy to make their voices heard.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=514&ncid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20030216/ap_on_re_eu/world_war_protests_23

Millions Worldwide Protest War in Iraq
Sat Feb 15, 8:09 PM ET Add Top Stories - AP to My Yahoo!


By ROBERT BARR, Associated Press Writer

LONDON - Millions of protesters — many of them marching in the capitals of America's traditional allies — demonstrated Saturday against possible U.S. plans to attack Iraq.


In a global outpouring of anti-war sentiment, Rome claimed the biggest turnout — 1 million according to police, while organizers claimed three times that figure.


In London, at least 750,000 people demonstrated in what police called the city's largest demonstration ever. In Spain, several million people turned out at anti-war rallies in about 55 cities and towns across the country, with more than 500,000 each attending rallies in Madrid and Barcelona.


Spanish police gauged the Madrid turnout at 660,000. Organizers claimed nearly 2 million people gathered across the nation in one of the biggest demonstrations since the 1975 death of dictator Gen. Francisco Franco.

More than 70,000 people marched in Amsterdam in the largest Netherlands demonstration since anti-nuclear rallies of the 1980s.


Berlin had up to half-a-million people on the streets, and Paris was estimated to have had about 100,000.


In New York, rally organizers estimated the crowd at up to 500,000 people. City police provided no estimate of the crowd, which stretched 20 blocks deep and two blocks wide.


"Peace! Peace! Peace!" Archbishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa said while leading an ecumenical service near U.N. headquarters. "Let America listen to the rest of the world — and the rest of the world is saying, 'Give the inspectors time.'"

London's marchers hoped — in the words of keynote speaker the Rev. Jesse Jackson — to "turn up the heat" on Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites), President Bush's staunchest European ally for his tough Iraq policy.

Rome protesters showed their disagreement with Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's support for Bush, while demonstrators in Paris and Berlin backed the skeptical stances of their governments.


"What I would say to Mr. Blair is stop toadying up to the Americans and listen to your own people, us, for once," said Elsie Hinks, 77, who marched in London with her husband, Sidney, a retired Church of England priest.


Tommaso Palladini, 56, who traveled from Milan to Rome, said, "You don't fight terrorism with a preventive war. You fight terrorism by creating more justice in the world."


Several dozen marchers from Genoa held up pictures of Iraqi artists.


"We're carrying these photos to show the other face of the Iraqi people that the TV doesn't show," said Giovanna Marenzana, 38.


Some leaders in German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's government participated in the Berlin protest, which turned the tree-lined boulevard between the Brandenburg Gate and the 19th-century Victory Column into a sea of banners, balloons emblazoned with "No war in Iraq" and demonstrators swaying to live music. Police estimated the crowd at between 300,000 and 500,000.


"We Germans in particular have a duty to do everything to ensure that war — above all a war of aggression — never again becomes a legitimate means of policy," shouted Friedrich Schorlemmer, a Lutheran pastor and former East German pro-democracy activist.


In the Paris crowd at the Place Denfert-Rochereau, a large American flag bore the black inscription, "Leave us alone."





Gerald Lenoir, 41, of Berkeley, Calif., came to Paris to support demonstrators.

"I am here to protest my government's aggression against Iraq," he said. "Iraq does not pose a security threat to the United States and there are no links with al-Qaida."

In southern France, about 10,000 people demonstrated in Toulouse against the United States, chanting: "They bomb, they exploit, they pollute, enough of this barbarity."

Police estimated that 60,000 turned out in Oslo, Norway; 50,000 in bitter cold in Brussels, Belgium; and about 35,000 in frigid Stockholm, Sweden.

About 80,000 marched in Dublin, Irish police said. Crowds were estimated at 60,000 in Seville, Spain; 40,000 in Bern, Switzerland; 30,000 in Glasgow, Scotland; 25,000 in Copenhagen, Denmark; 15,000 in Vienna, Austria; more than 20,000 in Montreal and 15,000 in Toronto; 5,000 in Cape Town and 4,000 in Johannesburg in South Africa; 5,000 in Tokyo; and 2,000 in Dhaka, Bangladesh.

"War is not a solution, war is a problem," Czech philosopher Erazim Kohak told about 500 people in Prague, the Czech Republic.

In Mexico City, as many as 10,000 people — including Nobel Peace Prize laureate Rigoberta Menchu — snarled traffic for blocks before rallying near the heavily guarded U.S. Embassy. Demonstrators beat drums, clutched white balloons and waved handmade signs saying, "War No, Peace Yes."

In Baghdad, tens of thousands of Iraqis, many carrying Kalashnikov assault rifles, demonstrated to support leader Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) and denounce the United States.

"Our swords are out of their sheaths, ready for battle," read one of hundreds of banners carried by marchers along Palestine Street, a broad Baghdad avenue.

In Damascus, the capital of neighboring Syria, an estimated 200,000 protesters chanted anti-U.S. and anti-Israeli slogans while marching to the People's Assembly.

Najjah Attar, a former Syrian cabinet minister, accused Washington of attempting to change the region's map.

"The U.S. wants to encroach upon our own norms, concepts and principles," she said in Damascus. "They are reminding us of the Nazi and fascist times."

An estimated 2,000 Israelis and Palestinians marched together against war in Tel Aviv on Saturday night.

In Ukraine, some 2,000 people rallied in snowy Kiev's central square. Anti-globalists led a peaceful "Rock Against War" protest joined by communists, socialists, Kurds and pacifists.

"We want to say that war is evil and that we who survived one know that better than anyone," said Majda Hadzic, 54.

In divided Cyprus, about 500 Greeks and Turks braved heavy rain to briefly block a British air base runway.

Several thousand protesters in Athens, Greece, unfurled a giant banner across the wall of the Acropolis — "NATO (news - web sites), U.S. and EU equals War" — before heading toward the U.S. Embassy.

U.S. Ambassador Thomas Miller said the Greek protesters' indignation was misplaced.

"They should be demonstrating outside the Iraqi embassy," he said before the march.

About 900 Puerto Ricans chanted anti-war slogans against the possible invasion of Iraq. One man waved a U.S. flag on which the stars were replaced with skulls.

In Brazil, President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva began efforts to unite South American nations against a possible U.S.-led attack on Iraq. Police estimated 1,500 marchers.

BasicTennis
Feb 16th, 2003, 05:22 AM
Nobody wants war but I really find it odd that generally most are only pressing the US regime to stop the war as if they're the only one who could prevent this to happen.

Why can't you guys also protest against the IRAQ admin to disarm or for Sadam to resign to avert the war. Certainly, Sadam can also stop the war if he wants to.

IMO, this anti-US protests are just making Sadam a stubborn leader thinking that all these persons are pro his administration.:o

Benny
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:36 AM
I am glad that people are expressing their veiws. Now only the government has to listen.

I am also glad countries in Asia, and the Mediteranean(Syria) are joining in, showing that overall, nobody wants a war.

Peace.

BasicTennis
Feb 16th, 2003, 06:46 AM
If Saddam gets away with it now, then we should expect a nuclear or biological war in the future.

Let Saddam disarm now!!!!!

LucasArg
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:04 AM
I am against the WAR.

I am also against ANY dictator in this world. Saddam is not the only one, also, Iraq is not the only country with dangerous weapons.

Why Israel, North Korea, India and Pakistan can?

Right now in Colombia some regions of the country are taken by terrorists and USA only send some troups for trainging the Colombian army. Maybe the bussiness in Latin America are not as jwicy as in Middle East.

I don't trust George Bush Jr, either, He is as dangerous as Saddam in his own way. Maybe some people are too blinded by 9-11 that now they can only talk about that.

I want PEACE.:cool:

BUSH GO HOME AND RAISE SOME PIGS!!!:wavey:

spyro
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:17 AM
I Want Peace Too !!! No War :(
I'm so ashamed that my President hasn't given her statement about this problem ... :sad:

Sam L
Feb 16th, 2003, 07:37 AM
Well I just heard John Howard on TV, and he said he's not fazed by these protests etc... Well he will be if he was defeated in the election in a year or so.

A question to all the protestors particularly Americans, Australians, do you plan on doing something about this the next time the elections come around?

US Elections in 2004? Oh so close....

Face it a vote against them is the biggest protest you can ever do.

saki
Feb 16th, 2003, 09:47 AM
Well, I yelled myself hoarse at the demonstration in Glasgow, marching through the city centre to the conference centre where Tony Blair was supposed to be giving his speech at the Labour conference. However, he was clearly too scared to stay there and see the 100,000 odd people who'd gathered to meet him, and ran away two hours early. Let no-one say that our leader doesn't listen to us...

For those who've been asking why we oppose the war when it would do such wonders for the Iraqi people (bombs are apparently known for their healing properties), here's an article from the Guardian on what's planned for after Saddam's removal. It really doesn't look as though anything will change.

Iraqi opposition slams plan for military governor

Luke Harding, Sulaymaniyah, northern Iraq
Sunday February 16, 2003
The Observer

A leading figure in Iraq's opposition last night rounded on American plans to install a US military governor in Baghdad to rule post-war Iraq, describing the plans as an 'unmitigated disaster', 'deeply stupid' and a 'mess'.
In an interview with The Observer, Kanan Makiya, an adviser to Iraq's main opposition group, the Iraqi National Congress, said America now appeared to have dumped its commitment to bring Western-style democracy to Iraq. Instead, under pressure from Saudi Arabia and the Arab Gulf states, Washington was preparing to leave Iraq under the control of President Saddam Hussein's Baath Party.

'This would be an unmitigated disaster for the long-term relationship between the US and the Iraqi people,' he said. 'The Iraqi opposition is going to become anti-American the day after liberation. It is a great irony.'

Iraq's democratic opposition parties are meeting this week in Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq to finalise plans for a transitional government. But their vision of a post-Saddam administration is deeply at odds with proposals set out last week by President George Bush's special envoy to Iraq Zalmay Khalilzad - and apparently endorsed by the Foreign Office. Under the plan a US military governor would rule post-war Iraq for up to a year.

The infrastructure of Saddam's ruling Baath party would remain largely intact, with the top two officials in each Iraqi ministry replaced by US military officers.

'The plan is bizarre. It is Baathism with an American face,' said Makiya, an Iraqi author and professor at Brandeis University in Massachusetts.

The country needed to undergo a process of 'de-Baathification' similar to the de-Nazification of post-war Germany, he added.

The White House has been badly stung by Makiya's criticism, and urged him last week not to publish a hostile opinion piece, arguing it would be 'counter-productive'. The Observer today prints his article in full.

Yesterday the chairman of the Iraqi National Congress, Ahmad Chalabi, who many people had expected to become Iraq's new president, also derided Washington's proposals. 'The vision of having US military officers three deep in every ministry is not workable,' he told The Observer .

Chalabi, who lives in London, said demonstrators who attended anti-war protests across Britain yesterday were misguided. 'I would urge them to think again,' he said.

'War is a horrible thing to wish on anyone. But I firmly believe that the Iraqi people want the US to get rid of Saddam. Blair is doing the right thing.'

Chalabi was especially scathing of the German government, which he said was led by 'ageing German leftists wishing to absolve their conscience at the expense of the Iraqi people'. It was Germany which had supplied Saddam with chemical weapons in the 1980s, he pointed out.

The Pentagon and the vice-president Dick Cheney are broadly in favour of introducing Western-style democracy to Iraq but the State Department under Colin Powell and the CIA believe it could have a destabilising influence on the region.

Iraq's neighbours, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, are also vehemently opposed to any federal arrangement that gives power to Iraq's Kurds or Shiites.

Chalabi said he was dismayed that the British government apparently endorsed a plan that would leave the minority Sunni elite, which has run Iraq for decades, in power, even though most of Iraq's 23 million inhabitants are Shiite.

The Iraqi opposition is also deeply suspicious of an agreement between Washington and Turkey that will see thousands of Turkish troops enter northern Iraq, ostensibly for humanitarian purposes. Turkey, with its own disaffected Kurdish population, wants its military to occupy northern Iraq to prevent Kurdish groups from seizing the oil-rich northern city of Kirkuk and proclaiming an autonomous Kurdish homeland.

The two Kurdish parties which have controlled a mountainous enclave of northern Iraq since 1991 insist that they want only a regional government. It now seems that their militias will play virtually no role in liberating Iraq and that, following pressure from Washington, they will leave the job to the American military.

An Iraqi opposition conference scheduled for this week has so far been delayed three times, with Washington making it clear it regards the meeting as an unhelpful distraction. Khalilzad has now reluctantly agreed to turn up.

Chalabi said opponents in Britain of a US-led war in Iraq preferred to ignore the brutal reality of Saddam's regime. 'There is a strong streak of anti-Americanism in Britain and Europe that blinds them.'

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 16th, 2003, 10:04 AM
I say give diplomacy more time as the Germans, French and Russians are insisting, make better plans for the reconstruction of Iraq if we do have to go to war, keep the screws on Iraq, keep pressuring the UN inch by inch, but be reluctant to act without UN support. Be steadfast, but patient.

In other words, let's have some sensible policy on all this, and some debate around the detailed issues.

I would be opposed to just blundering into war without proper plans and processes, but that has not happened so far.

I cannot join in the protests, which are not about these issues but seem to take a line that we must never use military force in this crisis, no matter what. To me, that is an extreme and untenable position to take.

Although I would oppose it, if it happened tomorrow, we may have to use military action. To get any further concessions out of Saddam we damn sure have to threaten it. That is just realistic. Do you think he's going to disarm just because we convince him it would be the nice thing to do? lmao

BasicTennis
Feb 16th, 2003, 10:37 AM
I hope one day, Iraq would test its biological weapons to France & Germany. This would sure bring "peace" to these countries.;)

BasicTennis
Feb 16th, 2003, 11:19 AM
absolutely, an everlasting peace for them.:o

earthcrystal
Feb 16th, 2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by DeuceDiva
[earthcrystal & volcana...i'm glad you enjoyed the protests in ny...
Firstly, enjoyed? The temperature was subfreezing. It was a cold, brutal day.

however, i was just wondering if you were both born in america or if you moved to live here after having been born in another country.

Born here.

it must be wonderful to live in a country where protesting is not only allowed but encouraged. it must be awesome to live in a country where freedoms (even when warped at times,) still exist.

Did you even read my post? Get your facts straight before posting, please. Oh yeah, this protest was so encouraged that the NYC revoked our permit to march citing "security" concerns. Granting that we could "assemble" but then they kept the majority of us from getting to doing so by penning us up on the way...


americans who don't have to stand in line every morning at 5am for a loaf of bread, or whose every other neighbor has a missing limb, or whose 4 year old children carry jugs of uncontaminated water from a pump two miles down the road everyday...and who still have the nerve to complain...

And your point is exactly? No, we don't have to stand in bread lines. The "nerve" to complain??? Yes, the courage to speak out when we disagree with govt. policy. So?

well...here, in hong kong...we call that...downright ungrateful. we also say...if you don't like it, find a better country to live in. here's a list of wonderful places to start with...s. africa, afghanistan, serbia, bosnia, cote d'lvoire, the philippines, cyprus, pakistan, east timor, northern ireland, india, nigeria, indonesia, the middle east, kashmir, macedonia, kosovo, kurdistan, uganda, sri lanka, tibet, the sudan...in hong kong, we call the above locations...paradise. [/B]

Ah, here's the same old line.... Ungrateful -- love it or leave it. :rolleyes:. Let me give you a little history lesson. We have what freedoms we do in the US because many courageous people in our past weren't the complacent cowardly little sheep you propose we should be now. If they had been; our country (a) would still be a British colony (b) would still condone slavery; (c) would still have segregation between blacks and whites; (d) would not allow women to vote...and the list goes on. We (Americans) have fought long and hard for the freedoms that we enjoy here; and still there is much work to be done. If we had done like you propose and sit back and say "thank you" we would be where you are now. Sorry that you live in such a miserable place. Why don't you do something about it?

earthcrystal
Feb 16th, 2003, 01:45 PM
Sorry, but you sound terribly uninformed; even a little brainwashed. And it would be a waste of my time to continue to debate the issue with you.

White Stripes
Feb 16th, 2003, 02:12 PM
hey there, i went to brussels yesterday, i think there were about 100.000 people. it was great!!!!

on the radio they said that blair's sister took part in the demonstration in london!!!!!!

Caz
Feb 16th, 2003, 09:48 PM
I was at the march in London yesterday. There were so many people there already by the time I arrived that the police kept closing off the bridges for public safety and it took *ages* of walking along to river for us to find a bridge we could actually cross to get to the embankment meeting point, (then we had to walk for about a further hour in a round-about route to actually get to embankment 'cos the police wouldn't let us just turn and walk down the other side of the river once we'd crossed the bridge).
It was freezing cold and not the nicest of days to be spending 4 1/2 hours walking around the streets of London, but I'm glad I stuck it out.
According to the police there were 750, 000 people there, according to the organisers 2 million, so there was probably somewhere between 1-2 million. It was nice to see so many people actually actively taking part in demonstrating for what they believe in.

Fingon
Feb 16th, 2003, 10:20 PM
The problem is, whether war is or isn't a good solution, no one in his right mind would want a war and I do think there are credible arguments against war.

But the problem with those peace activists (I mean the organizers, not the people that gathered in the streets) is that they are sistematically against something and the way they do things it rather hurts their cause.

To be credible, they should have organized marches before, I didn't see any protest against Bin Laden, I didn't see any protest against Saddam when he launched chemical weapons against his own people.

I didn't see any worldwide protest against Iraq when they invaded Kuwait, the point is, whether they are right or not, the activist look biased and that makes them less credible and hurts their otherwise legitimate cause.

If I wanted to lobby against war, I would certainly not want these people supporting me.

Anti globalization activists are marching against the war, to me it's that they found a good excuse to protest and they don't really care what's that about. One activist once said in Toronto that they needed to find new things to oppose to, rather pathetic.

I am very surprised that none of these activists brought the strongest argument against war in Iraq, North Korea. Everything the Bush Administration accuses Iraq North Korea has done it worse.

If Saddam is a dictator so is Il

If Saddam is trying to get weapons of mass destruction North Korea already has them,

If Iraq is a danger to its neighbours, so is North Korea, and add the United States to countries in danger.

The Bush administration said that while Saddam has been playing games with the UN, diplomacy against North Korea has just started, that is laughable since the crisis with North Korea started because they violated a 1994 tratade.

If the US attacks Iraq, then certainly North Korea should be attacked first, that raises the question on the real motives, North Korea doesn't have oil, it'a a country starving and with not much value, that's the only difference between the two countries.

but none of the activists has raised this, none of the activists has challenged the american "evidence", none of the activists has been so eager to protest when others have launched attacks.

The cause of peace will be better off without their "help", maybe then even I would believe in it.

geewhiz
Feb 16th, 2003, 10:20 PM
I was at the London one too. It was nice to see so many people there because the turnout at previous ones has always been a little disapppointing.

With regard to DeuceDiva's point: Yes, it is a luxury that we can complain and protest. We are very lucky to be able to do it without great concerns for our safety. We should, therefore, take the opportunity to do so when there is a cause that we believe in, not only because we are incredibly lucky to be able to do so and people have fought hard for our freedom to do so, but because there are many people who would like to protest but who can't and so we are, in a sense, protesting on their behalf too. To me it is a little like being able to vote in a democracy. People have fought and made sacrifices for my right to vote and it is wrong for me to carelessly disregard it. And this goes for people who want to protest in favour of a war too. They have the same right as me to protest, and some did, with no more risk to themselves as I faced. I am not denying that we have gained from war in the past, but there isn't anything I can do about that now, but I can try to do something about the future.

Car Key Boi
Feb 16th, 2003, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by Fingon
The problem is, whether war is or isn't a good solution, no one in his right mind would want a war and I do think there are credible arguments against war.

But the problem with those peace activists (I mean the organizers, not the people that gathered in the streets) is that they are sistematically against something and the way they do things it rather hurts their cause.

To be credible, they should have organized marches before, I didn't see any protest against Bin Laden, I didn't see any protest against Saddam when he launched chemical weapons against his own people.

I didn't see any worldwide protest against Iraq when they invaded Kuwait, the point is, whether they are right or not, the activist look biased and that makes them less credible and hurts their otherwise legitimate cause.

If I wanted to lobby against war, I would certainly not want these people supporting me.

Anti globalization activists are marching against the war, to me it's that they found a good excuse to protest and they don't really care what's that about. One activist once said in Toronto that they needed to find new things to oppose to, rather pathetic.

I am very surprised that none of these activists brought the strongest argument against war in Iraq, North Korea. Everything the Bush Administration accuses Iraq North Korea has done it worse.

If Saddam is a dictator so is Il

If Saddam is trying to get weapons of mass destruction North Korea already has them,

If Iraq is a danger to its neighbours, so is North Korea, and add the United States to countries in danger.

The Bush administration said that while Saddam has been playing games with the UN, diplomacy against North Korea has just started, that is laughable since the crisis with North Korea started because they violated a 1994 tratade.

If the US attacks Iraq, then certainly North Korea should be attacked first, that raises the question on the real motives, North Korea doesn't have oil, it'a a country starving and with not much value, that's the only difference between the two countries.

but none of the activists has raised this, none of the activists has challenged the american "evidence", none of the activists has been so eager to protest when others have launched attacks.

The cause of peace will be better off without their "help", maybe then even I would believe in it.

best post in the thread so far

geewhiz
Feb 17th, 2003, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by DeuceDiva
geewhiz...well said...i agree that that is the beautiful thing about these freedoms...they can be practiced any which way you lean...i suppose what baffles us most here in hong kong...is how anyone...anyone at all...who has no idea what it is to live under any other type of government other than a rich, western one...can possibly speak for the globally oppressed as if they too shared their burden. it's true...no one can do anything about wars past. that's over with and time goes on. however...the same bleeding heart idealist frame of mind that spat on vets returning from nam while calling them baby killers...is also the same idiotic mind-set that would protest a conflict that would not only assist in toppling a dictator...but would also continue to provide for their current style of living. here's what i think...if you're against this apparent oil hogging adventure...then purchase a plot of land in the mountains of vermont, live off the land, build a log cabin that runs off of solar power, and make your own clothes...simple. if we're to put aside all hypocrisies...THAT is the only way to collectively protest this war. squirrel stew never hurt anybody...in hong kong...we call that...putting up or shutting up.

I have lived under a government that was not rich or western, although admitedly I don't do that now. I never claimed that I was speaking for all the globally oppressed or sharing their burden, because I can't do that. But there will be some people who would have liked to protest but who could not because of the political regime they live under, and therefore it would be wrong of those of us who are able to protest to waste that opportunity. There is no guarantee that a war will topple Saddam, the last one didn't, in fact it made his position in Iraq stronger. Also, if he is toppled, who will legitimately replace him? The toppling of Saddam is not going to make everything alright. As for maintaining my current lifestyle, well it was going along just fine before there was a threat of war, in fact the threat of war has worsened it because prices for oil have risen and a war will make them rise more. And this is supposing that oil is the only reason for this war, which I personally am not conviced of, because if that is the case, shouldn't we be attacking Saudi Arabia as they oil and Saudis took part in the attacks on Sept 11th and it's not like they have a free and open political climate? If I was to take your advice and go live in Vermont, leaving aside the fact that I would no longer be in my country, sure I would personally consume less oil, but even if everyone who protested went and lived self-sufficiently somewhere, how would anyone know that they were protesting against the war in Iraq and not just wanting to live self-sufficiently? And by the time the government had noticed the very minute decrease in the demand for oil, it would be too late anyway because we would already be at war. It is one of the luxuries of living in a democracy that we can try influence our country by taking part in politics, not by dropping out of it. In the UK... we call eating squirrels... futile ;)

oh, and I agree with Fingon, the kind of protests that there have been are often let down by the people who organise them because they only arrange them when there is something for them to personally gain. But it is wrong to say that there have never been protests against this before. In London there are often protests, it's just that they are not always organised or attended by the big names in protesting and they don't get any press coverage. And there are people who question the evidence the government provides, etc, but I guess it's hard to convey that in one snappy sentence on a banner!

geewhiz
Feb 17th, 2003, 01:06 AM
lol. In the UK... we call that... something else entirely ;)

Kiwi_Boy
Feb 17th, 2003, 02:43 AM
Fignon i agree with you that north korea is more of a threat and i believe that it is far more inhumane than that of iraq and i also believe that only when their regime fall's will the world see the serverity of whats happened and possibly still happening in north korea.
I believe that the u.s does not want to deal with N.K because it is in an area too volitile and could serverly hamper u.s economic intrests in the south or just across the sea in japan,and i also think that they think they can pull of iraq easier than NK,and i'm sure they have weighed up the costs and risks affecting iraq and korea,but what i cant understand is how the U.S claim iraq is more of a hazard when N.K is activley threatening war and the construction of nuclear weapons and have a compleate lunatic incharge of the place,a thousand times more insane than sadam.
i honestley believe that N.K is the real threat to world security
The u.n should be investigating N.K and almost in panic mode over them not waisting so much time over iraq,and i would fully support a UN operation to "bring down" north korea,why? because they are more of a threat,especially now when they are alledgedly revamping their nuclear weapons program and have openly admitted doing so.
As for iraq,let the weapons inspectors do their job's,find the proof,and i mean something a bit more than a tin roof in the desert;) .....and if iraq's deemed to be a real and immediate threat then its up to the UN to do something.
note# i said "UN" not "US",this world has to start acting together for once instead of trying to dominate each other like big children and ignoring international laws that are in place to avoid problems.

a war at this stage in iraq is unnecesary and foolish.

evadafan
Feb 17th, 2003, 03:03 AM
Good post Fingon. The problem though lies in that Saddam can be dealt with fairly easily militarily BEFORE he obtains the weapons and military power of Kim Jong-Il. Sure we could go after North korea, but we rather like the South Koreans and don't want to see Seoul in a pile of ashes tomorrow. Sure we would win, but would the Korean peninsula even exist anymore? We have the chance to stop this from happening in Iraq, lets do it before its too late.

I'd also like to mention something that just isn't getting enough attention. Why hasn't anyone in the media paid attention to the severe undertones of anti-semitism coming from many protests to this conflict? Haven't several anti-semitic candidates recently had very good showings in some of these same European nations opposing the disarmament of Iraq? Also, if one makes the charge that the US is in this for oil, can't the same argument be made that France is against disarmament because of oil?

Sam L
Feb 17th, 2003, 03:13 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure I saw protests against war in Israel too! :eek:

I sincerely doubt there are any undertones of anti-semitism in the protests, I mean really. At least not in Australia anyway.

Somehow though I don't think these protests are making any impression on the leaders, they'll still go ahead what what they're planning.

evadafan
Feb 17th, 2003, 03:30 AM
Here is something from the Anti-Defamation League on some January protests, which ANSWER also played a large part:

ADL Says Organizers of Antiwar Protests in Washington and San Francisco Have History of Attacking Israel and Jews
New York, NY, January 15, 2003 ... The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) expressed concern that antiwar protest rallies scheduled to take place this weekend in Washington, D.C. and San Francisco may employ inflammatory anti-Israel and anti-Jewish statements and rhetoric.

Organizers of the January 18 "National March in Washington to Demand: No War Against Iraq", the San Francisco rally, and other events scheduled for this weekend have previously embraced statements supporting Palestinian terrorism, equating Zionism with Nazism, and calling for the destruction of the Jewish state.

"Given the rhetoric at past rallies organized by this group, we are extremely concerned that the message of this weekend's antiwar protests will be tainted with hateful calls for Israel's destruction and comparisons of Israeli actions to the Nazi extermination of Jews during the Holocaust," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "While we have always said that there is a time and place for criticism of Israel, we remain very much concerned and alert to those pro-Palestinian forces in this country who resort to anti-Semitism, and who may use the war in Iraq as a pretext for attacking Israel and Jews."

The antiwar rallies are primarily being organized by the International ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism) Coalition. Past rallies by ANSWER have included significant anti-Israel propaganda, including claims that Israel is guilty of "war crimes" against Palestinians and that Israel is a "racist state." The group was responsible for last year's largest anti-Israel rally, the "National March for Palestine Against War and Racism" in Washington on April 20, 2002, which served as a forum for supporting violence and terror organizations, and a proliferation of anti-Semitic expression.

Other supporters of the D.C. rally include the Richmond and Virginia Commonwealth University chapters of Free Palestine Now!, which justify their participation by arguing that, "Any U.S. attack on Iraq will be used as an excuse for the Israeli government led by war criminal Ariel Sharon to implement the policy of 'transfer' of the Palestinian inhabitants to the occupied territories." Free Palestine Now! plans to participate in a "feeder march" sponsored by various antiwar, anti-globalization, anti-capitalist and pro-Palestinian groups, including SUSTAIN (Stop U.S. Tax Aid to Israel Now).

BACKGROUND: International ANSWER Coalition

Since September 2001, ANSWER has organized many antiwar protests around the country. The largest and most disturbing was on April 20, 2002 in Washington, D.C. Called the "National March for Palestine Against War and Racism," the massive rally was attended by approximately 200,000 people, including thousands of pro-Palestinian demonstrators. The rally served as a forum for supporting violence and terror organizations, and for a proliferation of anti-Semitic expression.

ANSWER has played a key role in bringing Arab and Muslim Groups into the anti-war and anti-racism movements, which has led to extreme invective against Israel during protests. Among the groups that have endorsed ANSWER events and participated in rallies are Al-Awda and the Islamic Association for Palestine - groups that have actively engaged in anti-Israel boycott campaigns.

The rallies in Washington and San Francisco promise a repeat of what has occurred at other recent protests against U.S. policy, with the inclusion of significant anti-Israel propaganda and calls for the destruction of the Jewish state.

In addition to the larger rallies, the Student ANSWER group is planning a "Youth and Student Action Against War and Racism" on January 19, a march that will lead from the office of the Justice Department to the White House.

The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.

evadafan
Feb 17th, 2003, 03:45 AM
This article from a little less than a year ago is interesting. It talks about the rise of anti-semitism in Western Europe. Three countries are mentioned in the article: France, Belgium, and Germany...hmmmm....where have we heard those three in association recently??? Why isn't the media looking at this? Obviously its not the only reason behind support for Saddam in these countries, but it is a severe undertone.



Battling Anti-Semitism In Europe

BRUSSELS, Belgium, April 23, 2002

(CBS) World Jewish leaders warned Tuesday that the level of anti-Semitic attacks in Europe is the worst since World War II.

The World Jewish Congress (WJC), holding an emergency executive meeting two days after the stunning electoral success of the far-right in France, urged European governments to kill off anti-Semitism before it spread.

"To the political and intellectual leaders we send the following message -- we will never forget that once again you are standing by and doing nothing while synagogues burn in your cities," the Congress said in a statement.

It said media prejudice and pro-Palestinian statements by many politicians and prominent intellectuals had encouraged extremists in Europe to attack Jews and their property.

"The WJC notes with concern that European intellectual and political elites are creating an ambience in which anti-Semitism is considered legitimate," it said.

According to figures from the Congress, there have been 300 anti-Jewish attacks in the last three weeks, ranging from graffiti daubed on Jewish property to fire-bombings of synagogues and physical assaults on rabbis. Suspects in many of the attacks are Arab youths of North African origin.

In the most serious case, a synagogue in Marseille in the south of France was burned to the ground March 31.

In Belgium there have been a half dozen attacks on Jewish institutions, including the burning of a bookstore and a shooting at a synagogue.

There are Holocaust survivors who are telling their children: 'Look, this is exactly how it happened in the 1930s,"' when anti-Semitic attacks eventually led to genocidal slaughter of European Jews by Hitler's Nazi regime, WJC Secretary-general Avi Beker Beker said.

He said he still believed in the strong democratic institutions in Europe but added: "I'm quite disappointed I don't see the application."

French and Belgian leaders have already promised better protection for Jewish communities. It has done little to soothe worries, Beker said.

Beker said even some of the 100 delegates in Brussels were verbally abused on the streets and a Russian member was pushed around by a group of youths who stole his hat.

"This is really reminiscent of the worst times of Europe," he said. "It is part of an atmosphere. Not just a few hooligans."

The WJC said in would set up a European Jewish Information Center to monitor anti-Jewish attacks, suggest ways to prevent them and respond to media reports on the Middle East which it deems biased against Israel.

"We find Europe pretty sick. European Jewry is confronted with the strongest wave of anti-Semitic attacks since the end of World War Two," Serge Cwajgenbaum, secretary-general of the Paris-based European Jewish Congress, told Reuters.

Cwajgenbaum said far-right leader Jean-Marie Le Pen's surprise win through to the second round of the French presidential election showed that nationalism and anti-Semitism were on the rise in Western Europe.

"It reflects the malady which exists in different countries in Europe ... . We could never have expected even in our worst nightmares that Le Pen would succeed so much," he said.

The union of Jewish communities in France appealed Tuesday to Jewish voters to turn out en masse to vote against Le Pen, calling him a dangerous anti-Semite.

Israel's most powerful religious party, Shas, has urged French Jews to leave for Israel after Le Pen's strong performance.

Berlin police have given informal advice to Jewish people to avoid wearing skullcaps after recent anti-Semitic attacks in the German capital, a police spokesman said Tuesday.

Most significant Jewish sites in Berlin are guarded by armed police. Barricades surround buildings such as the historic New Synagogue.

The violence against Jews and Jewish property appears to be linked to protests against Israel's military incursions into Palestinian areas of the West Bank, although investigators have so far said it is the work of delinquents rather than an orchestrated campaign.

The World Jewish Congress reiterated its controversial view that anybody who is against Israel must automatically be anti-Semitic.

"It sees in the vilification and demonization of the Jewish state, anti-Semitism, plain and simple," the leaders said, voicing "unconditional solidarity" with Israel.

Five European governments appealed last week for joint EU action to combat racism after a spate of attacks on Jewish targets from Marseille to Kiev, but the EU and United Nations have also called on Israel to end its assault on the Palestinian territories.

BasicTennis
Feb 17th, 2003, 03:49 AM
Saddam has weapons of mass
destruction: Iraqi scientist

IRAQI President Saddam Hussein has been hiding weapons of mass destruction from United Nations weapons inspectors, one of his former scientists said.

"He has 200 security officers trained for years in concealment tactics," Doctor Hussan Al-Shahristani said in an interview.

Hussan, who described Saddam as the "master of concealment", said "all the major Mosques" in Baghdad served as "command centers and storage areas" for chemical and biological weapons.

Even just one milligram of VX, a "very potent" chemical weapon kept by Saddam, was enough to kill a human being, said the scientist who worked for Iraq in the 1980s.

Hussan said the only way to resolve the Middle East conflict was for Saddam to be overthrown by his own people, not the United States.

"The best people willing, committed and able to do that are the Iraqi people themselves if they are given sufficient help by the international community," Hussan said.

US Secretary of State Collin Powell had failed to get the green light from majority of the UN Security Council to attack Iraq.

Except for the United Kingdom and Spain, council members at a meeting Friday said weapons inspections should continue.

Hussan said Saddam imprisoned him for 10 years for refusing to help in Iraq's nuclear weapons program. He escaped during the Gulf war in 1992.

evadafan
Feb 17th, 2003, 04:05 AM
BasicTennis, where is that from?

It's no surprise.

Blogger Dives
Feb 17th, 2003, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by earthcrystal


We (my husband and I) began walking from 49th St. on 3rd Avenue at 11:30. The rally was at 1st and 51st. The police would not let us cut over to 2nd; let alone 1st Ave so we just continued marching down 3rd. They had us on the sidewalk until about 60th. Then we took the street!! We were still jammed shoulder to shoulder for the next 9 blocks where we were FINALLY allowed to to turn (at 69th St) and head toward 1st Avenue.

All the way up 1st Ave the police attempted to pen us in every couple of blocks behind barracades; only allowing a trickle of people thru every 20 minutes or so in order to frustrate people in hopes that they would give up and go home. WE DID NOT. At 64th Street we successful jumped the barricade and removed it. (I nearly got arrested but ran into the crowd). It's my understanding that this (storming blockades) happened numerous times throughout the day.

The pens were clearly an attempt to limit the number of people down at the rally point itself where most "news" cameras were positioned. And thereby report inaccurate numbers (big surprise!)



Did you ever stop to think the Police were doing their jobs? Think about it, you have that large of a crowd congesting NYC streets. You have the right to a peaceful rally, not one crowding up the streets and causing trouble. Plus, they were trying to keep you all safe by limiting the numbers. What if some retard who wanted the war, and hated all you peace lovers staggered into the large crowd and set off some huge bomb. It would have been a lot more trouble, death, and panic with you all being in one area. But then again, protestors never see it sensibly. I think the police, NYC's finest were just trying to "keep the peace" and prevent injury, harm and etc from coming your way as well as the way of the other people there in the city who choose not to rally. :)

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 17th, 2003, 01:07 PM
Nice article:

=========================================

The Left isn't listening

The Stop the War coalition is the greatest threat to any hope for a
democratic Iraq

Nick Cohen
Sunday February 16, 2003
The Observer

When Saddam is sent to rendezvous with a judge in The Hague, or a rope on a
lamppost, the democratic opposition in Iraq will need help. It has many
enemies: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, the CIA and the Foreign Office want to
replace the old tyrant with a new, compliant dictator - a Saddam without a
moustache. As the moment of decision arrives, Iraqi democrats and socialists
have discovered that their natural allies in the European Left don't want to
know them. They must add the shameless Stop the War coalition to the enemies
list.

Iraq is the only country in the Arab world with a strong, democratic
movement. Yet I wonder how many who marched yesterday know of the
dissenters' existence. The demonstration's organisers have gone to great
lengths to censor and silence. How else could the self-righteous feel good
about themselves? The usual accusation when whites ignore brown-skinned
peoples is that of racism. It doesn't quite work in the Stop the War
coalition's case. The Socialist Workers Party, which dominates the alliance,
was happy to cohost the march with the reactionary British Association of
Muslims. The association had blotted its copybook by circulating a newspaper
which explained that apostasy from Islam is 'an offence punishable by
death'. But what the hell. In the interests of multi-culturalism, the SWP
ignored the protests of squeamish lefties and let that pass. The Trots
aren't Islamophobes, after all. The only Muslims they have a phobia about
are secular Iraqi Muslims who, shockingly, believe in human rights.

The Iraqis made a fruitless appeal for fraternal solidarity last month. The
Kurdish leader Barham Salih flew to a meeting of the Socialist International
in Rome to argue for 'the imperative of freedom and liberation from fascism
and dictatorship'. Those marchers who affect to believe in pluralism should
find his arguments attractive, if they can suppress their prejudices long
enough to hear him out. Salih explained that the no-fly zones enforced by
the RAF and USAF had allowed his Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and the
Kurdish Democratic Party to build a fair imitation of democratic state in
liberated northern Iraq. The Kurds promote the freedom of journalists, women
and religious and racial minorities. Naturally, the local supporters of
al-Qaeda agree with Baghdad that this intolerable liberal experiment must
end, and the Kurds are having to fight both Saddam and the fundamentalists.

Salih was prepared for that: what he wasn't prepared for was the enmity of
the anti-war movement. Foolishly, he tried to reason with it. He pointed out
that the choice wasn't between war or peace. Saddam 'has been waging war for
decades and he has inflicted hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties.'
Indeed, he continued, the ethnic cleansing of the Kurds who are still under
Baghdad's control continues to this day. 'I do not want war and I do not
want civilian casualties, nor do those who are coming to our assistance,' he
said. 'But the war has already begun.'

What, he then asked, about the strange insistence of the anti-war movement
that Iraqis must not be liberated until Israel withdraws from the occupied
territories? Would the converse apply? If the Palestinians were on the verge
of seeing Israeli rule overthrown, would hundreds of thousands take to the
streets of London and bellow that Palestinians could not get rid of Sharon
until Iraqis got rid of Saddam? Salih doubted it and also had little time
for those who say war should be opposed because 'it's all about oil'.

So what? he asked. 'Iraqis know that their human rights have too often been
ignored because Iraqi oil was more important to the world than Iraqi lives.
It would be a good irony if at long last oil becomes a cause of our
liberation - if this is the case, then so be it. The oil will be a blessing
and not the curse that it has been for so long... So to those who say "No
War", I say, of course "yes", but we can only have "No War" if there is "No
Dictatorship" and "No Genocide".'

Readers with access to the internet can read the whole speech at
www.puk.org. I urge you to do so because you're never going to hear
democratic Iraqi voices if you rely on the anti-war movement. For most of
the time, the comrades pretend the Iraqi opposition doesn't exist.

Harold Pinter is the most striking member of a British Left with its hands
over its ears. In 1988 he staged Mountain Language, a play about the banning
of Kurdish in Turkey. The conceit was all too realistic: the world would
never know of the suffering of the Kurds because the Kurds would never be
allowed to speak. ('Your language is forbidden,' an officer bellows at
Kurdish women. 'It is dead. No one is allowed to speak your language. Your
language no longer exists. Any questions?')

In 2003 when Iraqi Kurds found the words to ask for aid in an anti-fascist
struggle, Pinter turned Pinteresque. He refused to hear the mountain tongue
he had once defended and became a noisy supporter of the Stop the War
coalition. The current issue of the left-wing magazine Red Pepper takes
evasion into outright falsehood. It condemns journalists - well, one
journalist, me - for being conned into believing the Iraqi opposition
supports war. Only American stooges in the Iraqi National Congress want war,
it announces with mendacious self-confidence. The main Iraqi parties - which
Red Pepper lists as the Kurdish Democratic Party, Supreme Council for the
Islamic Revolution and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan - are with the peace
protesters.

It's a convincing case, spoilt only by the fact that the Iraqi National
Congress is an umbrella organisation whose members include the Kurdish
Democratic Party, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution and,
indeed, the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, whose leader flew to Europe to beg
the Left to get its priorities right and support a war against tyranny.

If evasion and lies won't do, vilification is the last resort. The writings
of the Iraqi intellectual Kanan Makiya have inspired the opposition and
brought him many enemies, not least Saddam Hussein, who wants him dead.
Edward Said has been only slightly less forgiving. Makiya, he wrote
recently, is a man 'devoid of either compassion or real understanding, he
prattles on for Anglo-American audiences who seem satisfied that here at
last is an Arab who exhibits the proper respect for their power and
civilisation... He represents the intellectual who serves power
unquestioningly; the greater the power, the fewer doubts he has.'

I like a good polemic and used to have some time for Said. But he too has
fled into denial. Like the rest of anti-war movement he refuses to
acknowledge that Makiya, Salih and their comrades are fighting the political
battle of their lives against those 'Anglo-American audiences' in the
powerhouses of London and Washington who oppose a democratic settlement.
(See Makiya's article on page 20.) The democrats are struggling without the
support of Western liberals and socialists because they don't fit into a pat
world view.

Here's why. The conclusion the Iraqi opposition has reluctantly reached is
that there is no way other than war to remove a tyrant whose five secret
police forces make a palace coup or popular uprising impossible. As the only
military force on offer is provided by America, they will accept an American
invasion.

This is their first mistake. American and British power is always bad in the
eyes of muddle-headed Left, the recent liberations of East Timor, Sierra
Leone and Kosovo notwithstanding.

Then the uppity wogs compound their offence and tell their European betters
to think about the political complexities. The British and American
governments aren't monoliths, they argue. The State Department and the CIA
have always been the foes of Iraqi freedom. But they are countered by the
Pentagon and a US Congress which passed the Iraq Liberation Act in 1998 - a
law which instructs the American government to support democracy. Not one
Iraqi I have met trusts the Foreign Office. However, they have had a
grudging admiration for Tony Blair ever since he met the Kurdish leaders and
gave them a fair hearing - a courteous gesture which hasn't been matched by
the Pinters, Trotskyists, bishops, actresses and chorus girls on yesterday's
march.

The Iraqis must now accept that they will have to fight for democracy
without the support of the British Left. Disgraceful though our failure to
hear them has been, I can't help thinking that they'll be better off without
us.

saki
Feb 17th, 2003, 01:15 PM
I would agree that many anti-war protestors aren't on the demos for the right reason. Certainly in Britain many of the trades unionists are on the bandwagon because they want to regain control of the Labour party. And there are plenty of other examples...

But three rational points against the war:

1. Saddam Hussein isn't a threat to us. He's not stupid enough to attack us because he knows what the reaction would be. The US would _eliminate_ Iraq if nuclear/chemical/biological weapons were used against them.

2. Saddam isn't posing a terrorist threat. The fundamentalist terrorist groups and his socialist, secular dictatoriship have been at odds for many years. Bin Laden wants him dead.

3. The aim of the US/UK isn't democracy in Iraq. See the article I posted at the top of this second page for more details. We won't leave Iraq any better off.

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 17th, 2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by saki
But three rational points against the war:

1. Saddam Hussein isn't a threat to us. He's not stupid enough to attack us because he knows what the reaction would be. The US would _eliminate_ Iraq if nuclear/chemical/biological weapons were used against them.

2. Saddam isn't posing a terrorist threat. The fundamentalist terrorist groups and his socialist, secular dictatoriship have been at odds for many years. Bin Laden wants him dead.

3. The aim of the US/UK isn't democracy in Iraq. See the article I posted at the top of this second page for more details. We won't leave Iraq any better off.

Saki, I find your third point very powerful. So why aren't people on the left organising to mobilise for reconstruction of Iraq, rather than to oppose the war entirely? In current circumstances, I am actually opposed to the war, on balance. But it's only an on-balance thing, and the balance would shift if events moved along, more diplomacy was tried and failed, and France and Germany came in behind the US.

But, if there is a war, we're going to see the democratic elements in Iraq left high and dry. Shouldn't those of us who have some affinity with the Left (pretty residual in my case, admittedly) be taking a lot of notice of what those people want? They certainly do not support the anti-war movement. As an old/ex-leftie, I have no compunction about being prepared to support a forced "regime change" with the right processes and planning (which, admittedly, has not happened at this point).

saki
Feb 17th, 2003, 01:42 PM
another article on the undemocratic plans for Iraq:

Kurdish leaders enraged by 'undemocratic' American plan to occupy Iraq
By Patrick Cockburn in Arbil, northern Iraq
17 February 2003


The US is abandoning plans to introduce democracy in Iraq after a war to overthrow Saddam Hussein, according to Kurdish leaders who recently met American officials.

The Kurds say the decision resulted from pressure from US allies in the Middle East who fear a war will lead to radical political change in the region.

The Kurdish leaders are enraged by an American plan to occupy Iraq but largely retain the government in Baghdad. The only changes would be the replacement of President Saddam and his lieutenants with senior US military officers.

It undercuts the argument by George Bush and Tony Blair that war is justified by the evil nature of the regime in Baghdad.

"Conquerors always call themselves liberators," said Sami Abdul-Rahman, deputy prime minister of the Kurdish administration, in a reference to Mr Bush's speech last week in which he said US troops were going to liberate Iraq.

Mr Abdul-Rahman said the US had reneged on earlier promises to promote democratic change in Iraq. "It is very disappointing," he said. "In every Iraqi ministry they are just going to remove one or two officials and replace them with American military officers."

Kurdish officials strongly believe the new US policy is the result of pressure from regional powers, notably Saudi Arabia and Turkey.

The US appears to be quietly abandoning earlier declarations that it would make Iraq a model democracy in the Middle East. In Iraq, free elections would lead to revolutionary change because although the Shia Muslims and Kurds constitute three-quarters of the population, they are excluded from power in Baghdad by the Sunni Muslim establishment.

Kurdish leaders are deeply alarmed by US intentions, which only became clear at a meeting in Ankara earlier in the month and from recent public declarations by US officials. Hoshyar Zebari, a veteran Kurdish leader, said: "If the US wants to impose its own government, regardless of the ethnic and religious composition of Iraq, there is going to be a backlash."

Mr Abdul-Rahman accuses the US of planning cosmetic changes in Iraq. "This is to give the government on a platter to the second line of Ba'athists [the ruling party]," he said.

The US appears to be returning to the policy it pursued at the end of the Gulf War in 1991. It did seek to get rid of President Saddambut wanted to avoid a radical change in Iraq. The US did not support the uprisings of Shia Muslims and Kurdsbecause it feared a transformation in Iraqi politics that might have destabilised its allies in the Middle East or benefited Iran.

The two Kurdish parties _ the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP), which rules western Kurdistan, and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan _ are at the heart of the Iraqi opposition. Together they rule four million people in an area the size of Switzerland that has been outside President Saddam's control since 1991.

The change in American policy means marginalising the Iraqi opposition which has been seeking to unite. In response to the US decision, the Kurds and their allies have accelerated moves to hold a conference of opposition parties in Salahudin, the headquarters of the KDP, now scheduled for tomorrow. "We want to know if we are partners in regime change or not," Mr Zebari said.

He spoke scathingly of any attempt by America "to bring in an Iraqi from the United States who has not seen his country for years and impose him by armed force".

The destabilising impact of the impending war is already being felt in the mountains of northern Iraq. Turkey has demanded that its troops be allowed to take over a swath of territory along the border inside Iraq. The ostensible reason is to prevent a flood of Kurdish refugees trying to flee into Turkey, but the Kurdish parties say they are quite capable of doing this themselves. They say the Turkish demand, to which they suspect the US has agreed in return for the use of Turkish military facilities, is the first step in a Turkish plan to advance into Iraqi Kurdistan.

The Kurds fear that a US-led war against President Saddam might be the occasion for a Turkish effort to end the de facto independence enjoyed by Iraqi Kurds for more than a decade. One Kurdish leader said: "Turkey has made up its mind that it will intervene in northern Iraq in order to destroy us.

• Peace activists who want to be "human shields" arrived in Baghdad yesterday. The activists, who had 18 Britons among them, left London on 25 January in three double decker buses. They will deploy at likely bombing targets.

Patrick Cockburn is a visiting fellow at the Centre for Strategic and International Studies in Washington and the co-author of 'Saddam Hussein: An American Obsession'.
17 February 2003 14:35

saki
Feb 17th, 2003, 01:46 PM
jouissant - yes, I agree that if it were possible making Iraq a democracy would be an excellent thing.

However, I think we need to face up to the fact that Western leaders are selfish. What the US & UK governments want is not a better situation for the Iraqi people but a better situation for them in the Middle East. They're quite happy to use the Kurdish situation as an excuse for invading Iraq but they won't actually relieve it.

I'm pessimistic about the chances of the West being prepared to spend the time, money, and effort on rebuilding Iraq. Such a programme wouldn't be glamorous or dramatic as a war will be. They won't do it. Therefore, I don't see why we should go to war. If we're not going to eliminate a threat to ourselves or help the Iraqi people, there is no justification for war.

Halardfan
Feb 17th, 2003, 02:05 PM
Interesting that the largest march of all came in London, home of Bush's number one ally...

When I watch Fox News they always say it doesn't matter about getting another resolution but in the end it is vital, to Blair and ultimately to the US government...here is how...

If there is no seocnd resolution, Blair will be going to war with his own country against him and most of his usual supporters, MP's and party against him, we will probably be replaced from within his own party, by someone less willing to follow Bush's lead. I think Bush needs Britain and Blair's support more than people realise. Blair is a far more intelligent, articulate figure than Bush, one with far more credibility in the wider world...without such support Bush will be badly undermined, his most loyal supporter gone.

Which is a good thing. :)

Shuji Shuriken
Feb 17th, 2003, 02:06 PM
How would Bush like it if someone decided to wage war on the US, and bomb the fuck out of the US, because they didn't like Bush or thought he had weapons of mass destruction? Look at it that way. Is the US just an innocent bystander in all of this? I wonder why the US would consider giving incentives to Korea, but decides to bomb the fuck out of Iraq, when they both are huge threats to world peace and security? That's just too much of a double standard to look past. War at this point will serve very little, but to destroy the lives of those Iraqi people who know zero about Saddam and his policies. Is a pre-emptive strike on Iraq really justified against Iraq, but not against Korea? Come on. Fuck that. Instead of antagonising Saddam all the time, maybe Bush should seek something that would really work. And can the US economy withstand a war on Iraq? I think that's a critical point, cause the world economy is heavily dependent on the US. And if the US economy slumps, it could mean economic hardship for more than just the US people. Fuck Bush and Blair. Say no to war. War is not the answer. I hate Saddan Husein and Osama Bin Laden and all the other wackos out there ( Michael Jackson included), but war will hurt the people more than it will hurt they the leaders themselves :fiery: :fiery:.