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View Full Version : Why can't Justine beat Kim?


Volcana
Feb 14th, 2003, 08:27 PM
Okay, the title's obviously hyperbole. Justine HAS beaten Kim. Nonetheless, Kim's dominance of the head-to-head is indisputable.

2002-01-07 Sydney QF Clijsters 7-6 6-2
2002-01-14 Australian Open QF Clijsters 6-2 6-3
2002-05-13 Rome SF Henin-Hardenne 7-5 6-2
2002-11-04 WTA Championships QF Clijsters 6-2 6-1
2003-01-06 Sydney SF Clijsters 6-2 6-3

Why is that? Kim lacks the big time offense of Venus and Serena. But she had a similar level of success vs Justine. That argues that what's beating Justine is defense.

Certainly, the three best retrievers on the tour are ranked ahead of her. And Justine herself is probably #4. Is it just that Justine can't hit enough winners vs these players? Is any one else coming along who can cover court with the top three? What can Justine do to compensate? She certainly doesn't want to go on losing 9 of every 10 matches to those currently ranked ahead of her.

The Crow
Feb 14th, 2003, 08:28 PM
Surface. Plus Kim is that little bit better.

rhz
Feb 14th, 2003, 08:30 PM
mental

The Crow
Feb 14th, 2003, 08:32 PM
I disagree rhz, it's not a mental thing at all (only perhaps the RG match)

tennisIlove09
Feb 14th, 2003, 08:33 PM
surface.

Justine seems to struggle [for a top 10er] on hardcourts? Look at the US Open...only Slam not to reach the QF's.

Wait until clay. Justine will have a better chance. And shockingly, Justine seems to be better on grass

Wimanna
Feb 14th, 2003, 08:37 PM
I really don't know what to expect for tomorrows match...What I saw today from Justine was really amazing, almost the prefect match...She was agressive and hit a lot of winners. Kim wasn't that bad either but started slow and made a lot of UE's... In front of the homecrowd, I guess we will see 3 sets... Last meeting was much closer than the scoreline shows ;)

sartrista7
Feb 14th, 2003, 08:44 PM
1) As others have pointed out, surface. Kim is way overrated imo, but indoors favours her game over Justine's by some way, and she's superb on Rebound Ace.

2) Justine's game is still a work in progress. Kim seems to have reached a level which is excellent, but not one she can go much further from. Justine's game is much more complex and hasn't matured fully yet... it's a by-product of being able to hit so many shots.

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:02 PM
It will be interesting. I think this is perhaps the best time in a while for Justine to beat Kim...but who knows....Kim is an awfully strong mental player.

E. Blackadder
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:05 PM
Justine will win this one; wanna know why? There's a pattern and their matches are fixed :p

Clijsters
Clijsters
Henin-Hardenne
Clijsters
Clijsters
Henin-Hardenne
Clijsters
Clijsters
antwerp: Henin-Hardenne

(kim wins two, justine one, kim wins two, and so on ;) )

BombsAway
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:09 PM
Kim is JUST PLAIN BETTER than Justine. Period.

Simplify
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:12 PM
Kim is JUST PLAIN BETTER than Justine. Period.
BombsAway, I couldn't type it in fast enough. Thanks;)

Hagar
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:13 PM
Good one, RB! :D
Sartrista, are you mad? Kim overrated? She was number 3 last year and she's number 3 again. She confirmed her AO semi of last year. I thought that this "Kim is overrated" was past by now.

Martian KC
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:15 PM
People's ignorance.:rolleyes: Kim is and will probably always be mentally tougher than Justine. That's the edge she has over Justine.

The Crow
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:15 PM
If this is the way they've fixed their matches, Justine is a bad negotiator ;)

Keith
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:20 PM
That isnt their entire head to head, is it?

sartrista7
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Hagar
Good one, RB! :D
Sartrista, are you mad? Kim overrated? She was number 3 last year and she's number 3 again. She confirmed her AO semi of last year. I thought that this "Kim is overrated" was past by now.

Oh, I don't deny that she's a superb player who's the third best in the world by some way right now. I don't see her as anything other than an occasional threat to an off-form Williams sister, though, and whereas I'd be very surprised if Justine ended her career without at least one Slam, if Kim failed to get one... well, I wouldn't exactly fall off my chair.

The Kim thing is that she plays the exact same game as Venus and Serena, but not as well. Justine plays a completely different game, one which really embodies everything you have to do to beat them - and, crucially, one which hasn't reached its full potential yet.

Sofiane
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:25 PM
Starsita7, generally I don't even bother to people who tries to put down other players, but if you follow some tennis, Kim doesn't play the same tennis as the sisters, she hit with heavy topspin, and she uses more finess, like drop shots and lobs. Yes she is a baseliner like Venus and Serena, but just as 99% of the tour.

Ryan
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:25 PM
In fear of saying exactly what Sartrista said again, I'll just leave it at that I 100% agree with her. :p

Wimanna
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by Keith
That isnt their entire head to head, is it?

This is what I found:

1998: Israel ($25.000)
QF Justine def. Kim 6-1 7-6 (3)

1999: reims ($25.000)
F Justine def. Kim 6-4 6-4

Exhibitons:
2001 Antwerp: Kim def. Justine 6-4 6-2
2002 Charlerloi: Kim def. Justine 6-1 6-4

Hagar
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:27 PM
In case of no injuries for Kim and Justine, I am pretty convinced they both will win their slam. Kim in the near future, Justine when she's a bit older and less stressed.
Kim can definitely repeat what she did in LA.

sartrista7
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by Sofiane
Starsita7, generally I don't even bother to people who tries to put down other players, but if you follow some tennis, Kim doesn't play the same tennis as the sisters, she hit with heavy topspin, and she uses more finess, like drop shots and lobs. Yes she is a baseliner like Venus and Serena, but just as 99% of the tour.

Venus and Serena also use drop shots and lobs, not all that much less than Kim. And Serena plays with pretty heavy topspin at times. Essentially, though, the games of Venus and Serena and Kim (and most of the top ten) are centred around the power/speed axis, and V and S are really head and shoulders above the rest in terms of that kind of play.

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:34 PM
Seems like Justine won most of the early matches and now Kim has turned it around?

Bigkimfan
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:35 PM
easy...Kim's just better!;)

rhz
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:40 PM
i still think it is mental. justine has the game to bet clijsters, or the other way around. but if you look at their last few matches, that justine just gave those matches as presents to kim. she made way too many unforced errors.

i think she is overshadowed by kim in that little country! I like em both, but more too justine side! so wish she could turn around the results!

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:45 PM
I agree rhz....it's almost like the Serena/Venus rivalry - it's all mental.

RAA
Feb 14th, 2003, 09:52 PM
I agree with Sartrista, mostly, but am not 100% convinced of my own argument yet...

I really think that Justine has it in her to sneak in a slam or two in this age of power players. I've said this before, but I think she could be the ASV of this era. She won't dominate, but she has enough variety and, USUALLY, agression to counter act the power/athletic game of the power hitters. Yes, I know that venus and serena lob, volley and use their heads. I'm not denying that, but justine's game is a bit more "all-court" than serena and venus' game.

Kim is a HELLUVA athlete and has an amazing game. an amazing game. but sometimes I think she is in the Jen Cap category, in that she has a power game, great great defensive abilities, great athleticism, she's a great fighter. however, since #1 and #2 both have all those qualities, and are arguably better in all those categories, I'm not sure where that leaves Kim (except at#3 where she is now, and richly deserves)...

[having said all that. sometimes I don't know WHICH way Venus' career is going to go in the short term, and I don't think its unforseeable for Kim to slip into that #2 slot perhaps in late 2003 or 2004??? she was hurt a lot of last year so will probably improve. and venus has a lot of finals to defend, plus her titles.

how about that for playing both sides of the fence?]

okay, what was the question? why can't justine beat kim? because Justine gets a bit nervous I think, and for some reason she has it in her head that Kim is better. that is my completely amateurish psychoanalysis. She lets Kim take her out of her game..

disposablehero
Feb 15th, 2003, 12:42 AM
Kim lacks offense? I thought Chrissie retired from commentating.

disposablehero
Feb 15th, 2003, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by sartrista7


2) Justine's game is still a work in progress. Kim seems to have reached a level which is excellent, but not one she can go much further from. Justine's game is much more complex and hasn't matured fully yet... it's a by-product of being able to hit so many shots.

Oh god, I LOVE this one. I LIVE for this one, and it makes my day every time. It never fails to give me a big grin. Don't forget how Dokic, Hantuchova and Dementieva still haven't polished their games as much as Kim. Oddly, I was hearing the same when Kim wasn't nearly as obviously superior to them as she is now. So I guess she became even more "maximized" since then, while they all stood still.

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Feb 15th, 2003, 12:50 AM
To me I think Dokic and Dementieva are as good as they are going to get. I don't know who said they are "polishing" their games, but I disagree.

As for Justine, I think her game has much much more room to improve, but bottom line is, Kim owns her, and it doesn't matter who is the better player technically or whatever, but when someone owns you, they own you....nothing you can do about it - except develop a mental toughness that is only seen amongst the champions.

Gowza
Feb 15th, 2003, 12:51 AM
kim is better on all surfaces than clay. at the moment. kim is a very good clay court player and i know that she beat justine in the se is of roland garros in 2001 but at that stage kim was a better player than justine on clay whereas now justine is a much better player on clay to what she use to be as her results show the only time she beat kim was on clay and she has also beaten serena on clay.

although kim did beat venus on clay and she certainly has the psyhcological advantage over justine but i think if justine is going to beat kim (consistently) the surface would have to be justine. unless justine finds something and suddenly gets better than kim on the other surfaces.

Chance
Feb 15th, 2003, 12:54 AM
Ryan- I don't think sartrista is a girl

I agree with Rhz- I like both players but it seems sometimes Justine does live in Kim's shadow

Despite the scoreline their semi was quite close in Sydney.I'm pulling for Justine- though I don't mind Kim winning. Hopefully it's a good match

As long as Venus is on the side of the net on Sunday- that what really matters ;)

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Feb 15th, 2003, 12:56 AM
Amen sunset -- when it all boils down, Venus is all that matters ;)

Mateo Mathieu
Feb 15th, 2003, 01:04 AM
You guys forgetten the meeting in Indian Wells in two years ago ;)

o0O0o
Feb 15th, 2003, 01:38 AM
Justine is so easily overpowered. End of story.

I would argue that she is more overpowered in rallies than Hingis used to be. Sure, Justine can whip a serve and short ball, but in regular power rallies, Martina would always return it deep and stand on the baseline, whereas Justine gets pushed back and resorts to using soooo much slice.

mboyle
Feb 15th, 2003, 01:43 AM
I think Kim is a much different player than the sisters.

A: The sisters bang away and go all out on nearly every shot whereas Kim relies more on placement to set up a ball that she can go for without making an error.

B: The sisters (especially Venus) tend to hit really deep and flat (not as flat as a Jennifer or Lindsay or Monica but still pretty flat) in the court for their winners (although Serena's angles are second only to Monica's;) , she doesn't always use them) whereas Kim goes for angles more and hits with VERY heavy topspin

C: Kim's sliding abilities are far superior to any other player on the men's or women's circuts IMHO. (who else can do it on a hard court and not get an immediate trip to the hospital?) Her defensive game (that very low, deep slice for example) is better than the sisters (who bang away even on the run, which is in some ways better, and in some ways, worse) and Kim uses drop shots and lobs more frequently, and with better placement, than Venus and Serena.

D: Kim's serve. About two times per service game, Kim really goes all out on the serve and just aims fairly close to the lines and tries to get up into the high 100s. However, most often Kim aims to get in her serve right on a line with considerable spin right around 100 or 95MPH. Her second serve is hit with heavy slice, placed very well (nearly as close to the lines as the first), and around 85 MPH. (the one area the Williams' really differ on is the serve so bear with me) Serena and Venus both go for more on their first serves (Venus ALWAYS goes 100% with little if any regard to placement, Serena goes about 90% and tries hard to vary her placement, but usually hits it flat), and have different seconds (Venus' sucks and is in the 70s with just enough kick to sit up perfectly in the opposing player's strike zone, wheras Serena's is placed almost as well as Kim's, at the same pace, but with some SERIOUS kick which is VASTLY superior to Kim's heavy slice).

So, as you can see, I view Kim as a very different player than Vee and Ree who relies on finesse, placement, and superb defense to set up a ball to really go for the lines with. She tries to make few errors (to varied success), and rarely (if ever) hits the crap out of the ball time after time in a match. Venus and Serena not only do that over and over in a match, they kill the ball pretty much every shot in EVERY match they have played since they were about 5 years old:eek: . Wheras Kim is always placing the ball well to set up a shot to hit harder, Venus and Serena are always hitting the ball hard to set up a shot to hit closer to the lines. Different approaches to the same end result. :)

Dawn Marie
Feb 15th, 2003, 02:49 AM
Justine has more weapons and a heavy shot selection to choose from, like Amelie but she is learning how and when to use which shot. Also Justine is way too error prone on the big points. Infact is she doesn't start working on that serve and the ue's I think Kim will continue to dominate her. Kim went up a level and Justine has not. Kim has become more consistant and focused. Justine steal needs work on her mental game. KIM PLAYS THE BIG POINTS BETTER and Justine does not. Kim is nowhere near overrated.. LMAO

o0O0o
Feb 15th, 2003, 02:55 AM
mboyle is spot-on...Kim doesn't play like the Williams sisters at all. She has a different serve, more topspin on her strokes, different strategy, a different defensive game, she runs around her forehand, mixes it up more, etc.

TSequoia01
Feb 15th, 2003, 03:07 AM
I agree that Kim does not play like the Sisters. The Sisters and especially Serena are much more aggressive. They attack like Monica. Kim goes for a lot less and waits on short balls or just ones she can attack. She is fast like the Sisters and hits hard especially on the forehand side. She has good lobs and drop shots. Both Sisters are better on the backhand side while Serena will match her forehand as well. Her serve is a cut below both Sisters and her returns are not as devastating. But she keeps the balls in play. Kim against either Sister is a good matchup. If either Sister is on they will defeat her. If they are off and making lots of ue's Kim will be tough.

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 15th, 2003, 03:16 AM
Exactly. Kim does not play ultra aggresive tennis or what I like to call High Risk Tennis. To play High Risk tennis and win you have to be very very good because the margin for error is so low. Too many errors and your going home. Serena and Venus play High Risk tennis. Kim does not.

Are her shots more varied? She goes for a few more lobs, somestimes and a few more drop shots, sometimes, but please the girl is not momo by any means. She is a baseliner and not at all all court. She comes in for short balls.

Kim is more defensive. That is basically the only real difference.

Killing the ball is only bad when you dont have the skill to make the shot. If you dont have the skill necessary to control the ball then you must play with much less aggression and be more defensive which kim is great at. she played that way at the championships and won.

However in aussie land once serena started finding the lines and her nerve kim's defensiveness spelled her D O O M.

PS on a side note I disagree that slicing it back is better than going for a winner on the run. I mean the sisters are KNOWN for their winners on the run, it is a cornerstone of their playing style. Why? BECAUSE THEY MAKE THEM SO OFTEN ITS RIDICULOUS. Believe me if their shots on the run were going out more than in it wouldn't be talked about except as bad shot selection. However when the majority go in thanks to their excellent control and accuracy it becomes a powerful weapon. Why do you think Mary carillo is always screaming,"hit it up the middle!"

anyway kim is also good at shots on the run but she does not pull of the majority of the shots the sisters do.

I look at it this way: Serena and Kim are what, a year apart? Kim went through the juniors. She had more experience than Serena when she first came on tour. Kim has been full time on the tour for what, four years? What has kim accomplished in four years? What did Serena accomplish in four years? Players mature differently, true. However when all three top players Venus, Kim, and Serena have so much room to grow well lets just say I have a feeling the sisters will be dominating the game until they retire.

Dawn Marie
Feb 15th, 2003, 03:41 AM
oOooo, You are way off base regarding Juju and Hingis and overpowerment. Justine is ACTIVELY participating her gameplay during a powerful top ten. She held up so much better then Hingis in the past two years. To compare Hingis is silly, because Hingis was being over powered by V@S and Justine has beaten them both. Justine can handle the power, she beat Lindsay recently. Justine has the game but still needs some seasoning. Justine is in the top ten when the it is at it's most powerful. Anyway if Justine worked on her focus and UE's and serve I think she can defeat Kim. It's so mental with her.

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Feb 15th, 2003, 03:51 AM
:kiss: Hi dawnie :wavey:


I agree......apparently 000o0 or whatever, didn't see the Lindsay/Justine SF.

Some of those forehands and backhands from Justine......dayum!

1jackson2001
Feb 15th, 2003, 03:56 AM
I think it's mainly mental...but definately Justine lacks some of the consistency that Kim has. Kim's serve is also more reliable during important moments than Justine's.

Dawn Marie
Feb 15th, 2003, 04:01 AM
Hiya:wavey:

Yeah 5 O's didn't take it into account that Justine has beaten more power babes then Hingis has in the past two years. When Hingis beat the power the babes many were so inconsistant. The WTA tour has gotten so much more powerful just in the past 2 years. Infact I think Juju is the only player in the top ten who is NOT considered a POWER BABE. That means
something imho.

sartrista7
Feb 15th, 2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by disposablehero
Oh god, I LOVE this one. I LIVE for this one, and it makes my day every time. It never fails to give me a big grin. Don't forget how Dokic, Hantuchova and Dementieva still haven't polished their games as much as Kim. Oddly, I was hearing the same when Kim wasn't nearly as obviously superior to them as she is now. So I guess she became even more "maximized" since then, while they all stood still.

Dokic and Dementieva have room for improvement, but not all that much... unlike Justine, it's not a question of them getting to grips with their game as with sorting out their mentality.

Hantuchova's game is far from polished, but given that she appears to have no brain on court, I'm not holding my breath for a big result.

You didn't hear the same from me... it's only been apparent since the end of last year. Until then, both Kim and Justine had huge areas of their game which were just waiting for improvement.

Experimentee
Feb 15th, 2003, 02:10 PM
Justine has won all the meetings on clay or grass, her favourite surfaces, apart from that Roland Garros match that she should have won but didnt. Kim has won all the matches on hardcourt, which is her favourite surface. If Kim starts beating Justine all the time on clay or grass then we can say Kim is dominating Justine. Right now I wouldnt say shes dominating her, just playing better and has the edge at the moment.

SM
Feb 15th, 2003, 02:21 PM
Regarding Elena and Jelena i think they can definately have loads of room to improve with seasoning but in the 'mental' department as satrista pointed out. MOST players need only improve in that area because technically once theyre at this stage (top ten) you wont see many big improvements....but mentally Jelena has a long way to go in terms of shot selection (percentage plays) and holding her head together for the entire match.

I see Kim as peaking right now. Shes definately going to have chances to win slams in the near future. Jelena, Juju , Elena etc need seasoning before they can improve mentally and get their games to peak. I guess time will tell...

Mercury Rising
Apr 3rd, 2004, 04:13 PM
I disagree rhz, it's not a mental thing at all (only perhaps the RG match)Do you still think that? :confused: ;)

Lady
Apr 3rd, 2004, 06:00 PM
Well, that was interesting reading! :)

ace4lleykim
Apr 3rd, 2004, 06:09 PM
I think that Kim is gaining her confidence and mentality now when she's playing with Justine in GS finals. Remember last yr? Kim couldn't even win a set in all 3 GS finals. Did u see the difference in AO? She fought back in both second and third set!!!!!!!!! It was so unfortunate for her coz of the bad call. :sad::fiery: