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View Full Version : Have you noticed that people seem to be more aware that Martina is gay than Momo?


TeeRexx
Jan 27th, 2003, 09:26 AM
Since Amaelie publicly told the world that she was a lesbian, the whole matter seemed to be a non issue, outside of Hingis calling the Frenchwoman a"half-man" on one silly instance.

But somehow, seeing Martina Navratilova seems to constantly remind us that she is gay. That is obviously due to the fact that she is so outspoken on gay rights issues, Dates to hold the Oz Open and if dogs should be allowed on courts. :)

Will Raymond and Stubbs come out in the open or will they just people know what they know?
Will other WTA players come out as well?
Better still. I think no one should come out because what a person does whith another consenting adult does not need to be broadcast to the world because it is not necessary that the world needs toknow that particular bit of information.

The positive side of this issue seems to be that people do not really seem to care what one's sexual preference is as long as it something that is kept personal and the person has an oh-so-sweet onehanded backhand. :)

Just some random post Aussie Open thoughts.

TR :cool:

Crazy Canuck
Jan 27th, 2003, 09:47 AM
Why does everybody assume that Raymond and Stubbs are lesbians?

SM
Jan 27th, 2003, 09:55 AM
Maybe cos Martina was the first successful tennis star who was out, and maybe because she was so SUCCESSFUL (167 singles titles), and maybe cos she was more outspoken and didnt care about damaging her reputation/losing endorsements.

As for awareness re:momos sexuality i think its very well known (thanks to Hingis maybe) considering she never got anywhere near the media publicity martina got, and why should she? she hasnt even won a slam.

JonBcn
Jan 27th, 2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by TeeRexx
I think no one should come out because what a person does whith another consenting adult does not need to be broadcast to the world because it is not necessary that the world needs to know that particular bit of information.

WRONG. It is very necessary, so that people have to acknowledge that gay people are everywhere, and so that gay kids dont grow up thinking that they are alone and have some sense of self worth in a society that marginalises them.

No one should come out because nobody needs to know?!? By that token, shouldnt we all wear paper bags over our heads so nobody knows what colour we are?

Poe
Jan 27th, 2003, 10:02 AM
I think no one should come out because what a person does whith another consenting adult does not need to be broadcast to the world because it is not necessary that the world needs toknow that particular bit of information.

and if people like martina and ellen degeneres and all the people who marched in parades and came out to their friends and family decades ago and were beaten to death for it had that same attitude as you, there would have been no progress made for gay rights and awareness whatsoever

young gay people who are killing themselves or beeing rejected by their own families and kicked out of the house, the only minority in the world who experiences that, need role models and they need to be convinced that they are not the low life abominations that everyone tries to make them feel like they are.... they need to know there's other people out there like them

it is something that you, as a heterosexual, will never understand.. because you don't even realize that your sexual preference is no secret personal thing either... you are able to be in public with your girlfriend and attend family gatherings with her and hang out with friends together with her and feel no hatred or ridicule from other people at all for it... so why should gay people have to keep their romantic lives so hidden and secretive just because it makes you more comfortable not to know about it?

Martian Mel
Jan 27th, 2003, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Poe
and if people like martina and ellen degeneres and all the people who marched in parades and came out to their friends and family decades ago and were beaten to death for it had that same attitude as you, there would have been no progress made for gay rights and awareness whatsoever

young gay people who are killing themselves or beeing rejected by their own families and kicked out of the house, the only minority in the world who experiences that, need role models and they need to be convinced that they are not the low life abominations that everyone tries to make them feel like they are.... they need to know there's other people out there like them

it is something that you, as a heterosexual, will never understand.. because you don't even realize that your sexual preference is no secret personal thing either... you are able to be in public with your girlfriend and attend family gatherings with her and hang out with friends together with her and feel no hatred or ridicule from other people at all for it... so why should gay people have to keep their romantic lives so hidden and secretive just because it makes you more comfortable not to know about it?

:worship:

JonBcn
Jan 27th, 2003, 10:04 AM
Ooh, same sentiment, but better argued Poe ;)

kes
Jan 27th, 2003, 10:18 AM
Very very well said, Poe!!!:)

(invisibility=death)

SM
Jan 27th, 2003, 10:49 AM
u can till it was written by a Poe(et). Very well articulated and good points.

karma
Jan 27th, 2003, 10:56 AM
Gooooo Poe!

2284
Jan 27th, 2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by JonBcn


No one should come out because nobody needs to know?!? By that token, shouldnt we all wear paper bags over our heads so nobody knows what colour we are?

I think the point of the original comment was that what 2 people do with eachother is their own business, regardless of sexuality. The stuff about kids commiting suicide and being disowned by their families has no relation to the number of people who publicly come out. These issues exist for the same reason as race issues: too many stupid people in the world who are not willing to accept that different doesn't mean bad

Volcana
Jan 27th, 2003, 11:30 AM
I think no one should come out because what a person does whith another consenting adult does not need to be broadcast to the world because it is not necessary that the world needs to know that particular bit of information.

So ...
NO ONE should hold hands with their lover in public, neither gay nor straight.
NO ONE, gay or straight, should kiss in public.
No walking with your arms around one another. No pictures on desks at work. No embrace in the airport during a joyous re-union.

Ugh, what an awful world.

Who wants to live like that, Tee? Seriously.

JonBcn
Jan 27th, 2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by untitled2284
The stuff about kids commiting suicide and being disowned by their families has no relation to the number of people who publicly come out.

Thats totally incorrect. Ask any gay person and they'll tell you that one of the hardest parts of growing up was feeling alone, and dirty and ashamed, and that they are never going to meet anyone like them. Hell, theres enough anguished threads about this sort of thing in the non-tennis forum if you want to go and have a search.

Experimentee
Jan 27th, 2003, 12:20 PM
Its true that more people notice Martina is gay than Amelie. I've heard Nav get called names before, but i havent heard anything been said about Amelie, even though they are both openly gay. Not sure why that is.

JonBcn
Jan 27th, 2003, 12:22 PM
Its because Mauresmo fits the conventional male-centric image of what a typical (attractive?) woman should look like. I wonder if she'd still not be getting any comments if she shaved off her feminine locks and grew some armpit hair?

Messenger
Jan 27th, 2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Poe
and if people like martina and ellen degeneres and all the people who marched in parades and came out to their friends and family decades ago and were beaten to death for it had that same attitude as you, there would have been no progress made for gay rights and awareness whatsoever

young gay people who are killing themselves or beeing rejected by their own families and kicked out of the house, the only minority in the world who experiences that, need role models and they need to be convinced that they are not the low life abominations that everyone tries to make them feel like they are.... they need to know there's other people out there like them

it is something that you, as a heterosexual, will never understand.. because you don't even realize that your sexual preference is no secret personal thing either... you are able to be in public with your girlfriend and attend family gatherings with her and hang out with friends together with her and feel no hatred or ridicule from other people at all for it... so why should gay people have to keep their romantic lives so hidden and secretive just because it makes you more comfortable not to know about it?

I think everyone should be like Conchita Martinez. She doesn't care if anyone knows she's a lesbian, yet she never said "I'm a lesbian." That's like announcing to the world, "My mother was French." Like we care.

I think Amelie is a great person, but why did she announce that she was gay? I know that everyone's interested and it makes a good news story - but if you think about it if Amelie had announced to the whole world that she liked <insert uninteresting personal preference here> not only would no one care but we would all think that Amelie had gone wacko for actually thinking we cared.

So I don't think that anyone should "out" themselves, they should just live their lives however they want and if anyone asks they can just say yes.

(By the way, I don't remember what happened with Amelie exactly. Didn't she call a press conference during the 1999 AO?)

Doublebackhand
Jan 27th, 2003, 02:26 PM
why is it so difficult for those hetties to understand that gay people, young or old, anywhere, need some role models to look up to? for someone like martina to come out is more than a personal issue. it helps reinforce the self-belief of gay people and as the same time shows the hetero world what gay people are really like. the mass media stereotypes the gay people too much. gay people need some positive role models to set the record straight.

JonBcn
Jan 27th, 2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Messenger
I think everyone should be like Conchita Martinez. She doesn't care if anyone knows she's a lesbian, yet she never said "I'm a lesbian."

I think Amelie is a great person, but why did she announce that she was gay?

So I don't think that anyone should "out" themselves, they should just live their lives however they want and if anyone asks they can just say yes.


Yeah, and Conchita Martinez never had to deal with the loss of sponsorship that being publicly gay brings, and never had to be anybody's spokesperson. Good for her, thats her politics. Anyway, I wouldnt say that refusing to answer questions about her personal life is necessarily not caring if everyone knows she's a lesbian.

Better to announce it than to have rumours and lies printed in the press all the time, which was what was starting to happen to Mauresmo. So of course she had to 'announce' it, to stop all that.
If you are someone who becomes famous, unfortunately it is necessary sometimes to 'announce' your sexuality, because in this world everyone assumes you are straight unless you tell them otherwise. What better way to tell them otherwise than to do everyone at once?

Messenger
Jan 27th, 2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by JonBcn
Yeah, and Conchita Martinez never had to deal with the loss of sponsorship that being publicly gay brings, and never had to be anybody's spokesperson. Good for her, thats her politics. Anyway, I wouldnt say that refusing to answer questions about her personal life is necessarily not caring if everyone knows she's a lesbian.

Better to announce it than to have rumours and lies printed in the press all the time, which was what was starting to happen to Mauresmo. So of course she had to 'announce' it, to stop all that.
If you are someone who becomes famous, unfortunately it is necessary sometimes to 'announce' your sexuality, because in this world everyone assumes you are straight unless you tell them otherwise. What better way to tell them otherwise than to do everyone at once?

Good point, I can understand the position Amelie was in. I didn't know there were rumours about her though, the first time I saw her play was against Schnyder in the 2nd round and the commentators took note of her broad shoulders. Then by the semi-finals I remember knowing that she was gay, but I don't remember how I knew.

spokenword73
Jan 27th, 2003, 04:33 PM
The role model business is very tricky. Say an out gay person is angry, hateful and dishonest in their everyday life, does the fact that they are out and gay make them a good role model??

irma
Jan 27th, 2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by Experimentee
Its true that more people notice Martina is gay than Amelie. I've heard Nav get called names before, but i havent heard anything been said about Amelie, even though they are both openly gay. Not sure why that is.

it's already said before.
Amelie is still a pretender to be the best in tennis. Nav was the best by far in tennis. if Amelie would comeback tommorow and win every tournament this year she will get namecalling too.

griffin
Jan 27th, 2003, 06:33 PM
What Poe and Volcana said!

Originally posted by Messenger
I think everyone should be like Conchita Martinez. She doesn't care if anyone knows she's a lesbian, yet she never said "I'm a lesbian."

(By the way, I don't remember what happened with Amelie exactly. Didn't she call a press conference during the 1999 AO?)

For the record, Amelie did not call a press conference to come out. She was asked why she moved to the South of France, she simply answered honestly - that she'd moved in with her girlfriend, and that yes, they could quote her/say so.

What a radical.

I think the reasons you don't hear about Amelie as much as about Martina are (in no particular order) a) she's French and b) she's not Martina, one if not the greatest woman player of all time.

For all that, she DOES get called names, get described in very homophbic language, and I find that when she does get discussed, people manage to get around to her being gay, but as a Momo fan and a lesbian, I'm probably more attuned to it.

Messenger
Jan 27th, 2003, 06:39 PM
Thanks for clearing that up griffin. I guess the press made such a big deal about it I just assumed that she had announced it - rather than just making a casual statement like she did.

Someone told me that Amelie was made fun of in France afterwards, there was a mock interview where they asked Amelie what she did in her spare time and the answer was "weights". Can you tell me if this is true?

Poe
Jan 27th, 2003, 06:42 PM
The stuff about kids commiting suicide and being disowned by their families has no relation to the number of people who publicly come out.

I didn't say they commit suicide and get disowned because of a lack of public figures coming out. Nothing is going to change people who are cold hearted enough to kick their kids out of the house for who they are. I said kids who are in that position need role models and they need to know they are not alone and there are other people out there like them. THAT is the relation. So many times in my life I've had gay friends telling me "i can't tell my parents I'm gay they would put me out on the street" and whether it turned out to be true or not didn't matter. The fact that they were terrified it would is horrific to me. What kid should feel that. Imagine if they had no way of knowing that there were lots of other gay people out there and that they weren't some sort of freak of nature.

The role model business is very tricky. Say an out gay person is angry, hateful and dishonest in their everyday life, does the fact that they are out and gay make them a good role model??

Who's the last public gay figure who was so angry, hateful, and dishonest that they did not contribute anything to the gay community as far as support and awareness? If there is some, it's not many. And for every bad gay role model there's a thousand heterosexual ones. When a child can't tell the difference between right and wrong they're going to choose negative, rebeluous role models anyway whether they're gay or straight.

I think everyone should be like Conchita Martinez. She doesn't care if anyone knows she's a lesbian, yet she never said "I'm a lesbian." That's like announcing to the world, "My mother was French." Like we care.

You quoted my entire post and then stated this. Did you even read it? Maybe YOU don't care, but there are young gay people out there who do.

Messenger
Jan 27th, 2003, 06:54 PM
Yes I did read your post Poe Reader. It wasn't a direct reply, I was adding my thoughts to the topic that you and Tee were discussing. I was pointing out the fact that Conchita never officially "came out" but she doens't seem to have a problem with everyone knowing she is - and that's the way I think it should be.

Messenger
Jan 27th, 2003, 07:02 PM
Also, Tee's original post was broad. He talked about Navratilova, Stubbs, Raymond etc. which was why I thought it would be less confusing if I quoted your post as it was that specific topic with which my post was in line.

Poe
Jan 27th, 2003, 07:03 PM
was pointing out the fact that Conchita never officially "came out" but she doens't seem to have a problem with everyone knowing she is - and that's the way I think it should be.

that's fine for the celebreties who are generally known to be gay and don't want to use their celebrity to further gay rights and awareness.... but a lot of the public figures who state their sexuality for this purpose do it because unlike Conchita, nobody knew they were

and i still don't see how everyone can just assume conchita's gay when she hasn't confirmed or denied it unless you've all seen her making out with her girlfriend

griffin
Jan 27th, 2003, 07:03 PM
Messenger - Amelie did get made fun of, etc. in France according to my sources.

Just so there's no understanding - I have no problem whatsoever with people who come out in less subtle ways than Amelie. I don't see that as telling people something that's not their business, they're already in your business: because unless you tell them otherwise people ASSUME you're straight. It's really more correcting a misconception.

Maybe YOU don't care, but there are young gay people out there who do.

Quoting Poe, because it bears repeating.

Personally, I'd been out for 15 years before I'd even heard of Amelie. I don't need her as a role model to help me sort out being gay (although there's no way on earth I'd have handled Hingis' comments or the media onslaught Mauresmo faced with anywhere near the kind of grace and dignity she showed, but that's another story). But looking at her being out, and the support she's gotten helps remind me that we have made progress. And that's important, too.

Poe
Jan 27th, 2003, 07:05 PM
have no problem whatsoever with people who come out in less subtle ways than Amelie.

same here... i don't want everyone to misunderstand that i think ALL gay celebreties have an obligation to come out in the media... i'm just trying to explain why some do

Messenger
Jan 27th, 2003, 07:05 PM
I once meant a poster in the WTA chatroom who was very emphatic about a Conchita and Pato kissing incident at a tournament. Don't know if it was wishful thinking on her part though! Most people just assume she is, although we could all be wrong.

griffin
Jan 27th, 2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Messenger
I once meant a poster in the WTA chatroom .

FTR, I think Conch is as queer as a $3 bill.

But I wouldn't believe what I heard in the WTA chatroom if they told me I was gay ;)

Messenger
Jan 27th, 2003, 07:09 PM
That's sad Griffin, maybe someone should've pointed out to them that female tennis players are supposed to have muscles.

Messenger
Jan 27th, 2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by griffin
FTR, I think Conch is as queer as a $3 bill.

But I wouldn't believe what I heard in the WTA chatroom if they told me I was gay ;)

But she had "reliable sources"! ;)

LozHippy
Jan 27th, 2003, 07:11 PM
I think its a very good thing to be pubicly gay (I don't mean neccesarily shouting it from the rooftops) - I may be out on this board and to freinds and family, but being totally out and being able to walk in the park hand in hand with my boyfreind is something I stilll aspire to. A few more celebrities being openly gay could perk up my courage.

I think one of the biggest reasons for doing so is because a good part of human nature is brought out by having experience of and relationships with different people.
It's easier for someone and their peers to laugh at a faceless victim - this is why there are racists who hate everyone of a different race accept the one guy that they actually know through work or whatever.

Familiarity causes a trend toward acceptance.

spokenword73
Jan 27th, 2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Poe
I didn't say they commit suicide and get disowned because of a lack of public figures coming out. Nothing is going to change people who are cold hearted enough to kick their kids out of the house for who they are. I said kids who are in that position need role models and they need to know they are not alone and there are other people out there like them. THAT is the relation. So many times in my life I've had gay friends telling me "i can't tell my parents I'm gay they would put me out on the street" and whether it turned out to be true or not didn't matter. The fact that they were terrified it would is horrific to me. What kid should feel that. Imagine if they had no way of knowing that there were lots of other gay people out there and that they weren't some sort of freak of nature.



Who's the last public gay figure who was so angry, hateful, and dishonest that they did not contribute anything to the gay community as far as support and awareness? If there is some, it's not many. And for every bad gay role model there's a thousand heterosexual ones. When a child can't tell the difference between right and wrong they're going to choose negative, rebeluous role models anyway whether they're gay or straight.



You quoted my entire post and then stated this. Did you even read it? Maybe YOU don't care, but there are young gay people out there who do.


So are you saying only people who can offer "support and awareness" should be out? And those who we don't see as role model material should remain quiet? Or are you saying every gay person should be out, and we should judge them not because they are gay, but by how they live their lives?