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Josh
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:28 PM
Oops I missed your question Crow.

Solution? I think there's a need for more immigrants on visible positions in our political establishment. I like how Agalev and SPA have put people of foreign origin on their lists and how they approach certain problems that exist. And the government should finally make work of a real integration plan instead of going one step forward and two steps backward. ;)

Iconoclast
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by per4ever
the problem with Vlaams Blok is that this is their only main point!!! And there's lots more in politics then this..
Why is that a problem? If they consider it to be the most fundamental issue to deal with it, and no one else wants to confront it, it's only natural that it's their top priority. Sure, they are a protest party with a populistic tint. But the same can be said for a number of environmental parties. Time has moved on, new political movements emerging are not necessary likely to be comparable to the old, omnibus parties of the past.

Pinkie
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Iconoclast
They may not offer the most viable solutions, but at least they are not in denial out of fear of being castigated as morally reprehensible individuals.


The Vlaams Blok leaders ARE morally reprehensible individuals. No compromise there.

Josh
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by per4ever
Eurocrats are not supposed to live here forever no?

People who work for the various European institutions mostly stay here even after their retirement. I mean, who wouldn't? They don't even have to pay taxes. :rolleyes:

Talking about integration.....

Iconoclast
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:34 PM
That's the leadership you are to expect in a climate of demonization, the respectable quietly vote for them, but prefer to remain silent about it to avoid the venomous attacks on their character.

Josh
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:34 PM
Icon, other parties DO deal with those issues but the Vlaams Blok only criticism is that it's not going fast enough and blah blah. You should read the flyers they distribute every month or so. In fact many people have filed complaints for racism in those flyers.

per4ever
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Iconoclast
Why is that a problem? If they consider it to be the most fundamental issue to deal with it, and no one else wants to confront it, it's only natural that it's their top priority. Sure, they are a protest party with a populistic tint. But the same can be said for a number of environmental parties. Time has moved on, new political movements emerging are not necessary likely to be comparable to the old, omnibus parties of the past.

they have lots of succes in for instance Antwerp, if Vlaams Blok ever gets several seats in the national government, they won't have any plans for all other sectors they have to take care of. It would be a disaster..probably just like LPF in the Netherlands.

The Crow
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:41 PM
Pinkie and Josh, I think you both are living in a dream world. I too want what both of you say. I too can't understand why people are threatened by people speaking another language against eachother, why people can't handle the fact that someone has another religion, why people can't stand people wearing a scarf, ... But it's a FACT that most people ARE threatened by it. Hence the popularity of "het Vlaams blok". So if we take the solutions you propose I guarantee you that "'t Vlaams Blok" will grow!

Problem is I don't have a solution whatsoever. But integration is a key factor. And taking one step at a time is another one.

Iconoclast
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:41 PM
The important thing is not the party itself, it's the ideas they put to the forefront. They would probably be a governing disaster, in fact, I'm sure they would. But there's no question that they will deeply influence mainstream politics, and that's their main purpose, even if they don't see it that way themselves. I predict that their platform will slowly but surely be embraced by the other parties. Much the same way it has happened in the Netherlands with LPF.

The Crow
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:47 PM
Iconoclast, you hit the nail on the head. And although I don't really like it, I think it's the only workable solution atm.

brickhousesupporter
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:48 PM
I just have one question? Does integration mean loss of cultural heritage and customs? That is what I seem to be getting from alot of the post.

BTW this is an interesting discussion.

The Crow
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:52 PM
That is a good question, bs. It shouldn't have to. Definitely not in a perfect world ;)

Josh
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:53 PM
*Roar*

My last reply in this thread :D

Crow, so should we forbid people from speaking any other language than Dutch in public, forbid every religion except catholicism, forbid women to wear a scarf? Cause I guess that would take the "threat" away.

I'd say we have to come to a change of mentality. Show people that those with a different religion, culture, skin colour, etc... are equally capable of holding an important position, that cooperation is possible. Allow immigrants to come out in a more positive way instead of all the problems we are hearing now. I don't say we have to be silent about problems related to immigration but we should also show teh positive sides. Like immigrants who have successfully completed their studies, or who play an importnat role in politics, etc.... Sadly these images we never, or rarely get to see.

How many people know Meryem Kaçar, Fauzaya Talhaoui, Dalila Douifi, Fatma Pehlivan, Chokri Mahassine,... compared to Abu Jahjah?

The Crow
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:57 PM
Josh, you got me there. I have honestly no idea.

I know Chokri :D (haven't heard of the others though :o)

Pinkie
Jan 28th, 2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by The Crow
Pinkie and Josh, I think you both are living in a dream world. I too want what both of you say. I too can't understand why people are threatened by people speaking another language against eachother, why people can't handle the fact that someone has another religion, why people can't stand people wearing a scarf, ... But it's a FACT that most people ARE threatened by it. Hence the popularity of "het Vlaams blok". So if we take the solutions you propose I guarantee you that "'t Vlaams Blok" will grow!


I am not living in a dream world. I am not saying a group hug will solve everything. But facing a reality does not mean accepting it. I hope. The FACT that people feel threatened by foreigers does not excuse it. The reality is that there is racism and fear in Belgium and we have to deal with it. Giving into it is not a solution.

If you feel threatened when you hear somebody speak a different language, that is your problem, not their's. I live in the US and I will speak Dutch with my friends and family in public. If an American is bothered by that, that is not my problem either.

per4ever
Jan 28th, 2003, 03:20 PM
so you want to punish racists? Do you think that will change their vision?

Mags
Jan 28th, 2003, 03:25 PM
Wow - It seems tennis has gone out the window here but a quick question about the Vlaams Blok policy to those from Belgium.

The Vlaams Blok says they will conduct a 'humane policy of return' for those from Turkey and Northern Africa, providing aid to these countries etc. However from what some here said eg. per4ever these people aren't immigrants but Belgians, born, raised, taught in Belgium. I don't know what the nationality rules in Belgium, but if this is the case -

1) Won't many of those who will be 'humanely returned' hold Belgium passports by virtue of their birth and are thus Belgian citizens and not Turkish / Northern African?

2) If the answer to the above question is yes, then why should Turkey/ Northern Africa take back people who are Belgian by nationality and are perceived as being a 'problem' by the country of their birth?. If a person was born in Belgium and a Vlaams Blok government perceives that he/she is not contributing to the society into which they have spent all their lives, why should the Turkish government take that individual to add to their own social burden?.(hope my question makes sense here!). I am assuming that this question has been raised by others in Belgium in response to the Vlaams Blok policy and would be interested in the answers given.

Pinkie
Jan 28th, 2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by per4ever
so you want to punish racists? Do you think that will change their vision?

To put it bluntly: yes. Racism is illegal by law and it should be enforced as such. It is probably not going to change a racist's opinion, but it shows everyone else in a civilized society that certain behaviors are not tolerated. If a bar tender makes someone's drink disgusting because that person is not white, changing the bar tender's vision isn't the first priority; getting him at least fined is.

gentenaire
Jan 28th, 2003, 03:49 PM
Mags, that's exactly what a lot of people fail to realise. A lot of them are 2nd or 3rd generation, have lived here their entire life, this is their home. That's one of the reason why I have problems with the Vlaams Blok (main reason being that the leaders of the party are clear racists, see things in black and white (no pun intended)). Sending them to their country of origin is not a solution. Like I said in one of my first posts regarding this issue: it's a two way thing. They must integrate, learn our language and our culture (I don't mind if they speak their native language amonst one another, there's freedom or religion so for they can have their own religion, their own customs, as long as they're not against our laws and as long as they respect our culture as well), in return we must see to it that they can, see to it that they have the same opportunities as far as education and work goes, etc.

SJW
Jan 28th, 2003, 07:40 PM
OMG there are so many posts on this thread and i could only ead the first 3 pages but....

while i make fun of Britain all the time i guess im just thankful that this would NEVER EVER EVER be gotten away with here. you make a comment in the slightest bit racist, then not only are you fired, but the law is involved with a click of the finger here. there are very strict laws about this kinda thing, and because England has every ethnic minority available here, then you cant go saying things like that.

Belgians: i know it was only two people so i dont blame you all :) i am friends with two belgians and they are the nicest people. all belgians cant be bracketed with these two jerks.

i just wanna know when will Venus and Serena stop experiencing this type of hate???

Chance
Feb 4th, 2003, 08:23 AM
I got this from venusserenafans.com

-------
There was a man in Belgium, who complained about that to the police! So now that man has had a call from the Williams family!

AND VENUS wants to meet him to thank him! that man is so lucky!

it was in last weekends newspaper!

-----

:D

irma
Feb 4th, 2003, 08:36 AM
"i just wanna know when will Venus and Serena stop experiencing this type of hate???"

as long as they stay in the spotlights:(

very nice from Venus that she wants to meet that man:D

i-girl
Feb 4th, 2003, 09:48 AM
when people choose to settle themselves in a new country, a new culture, they are the ones who need to make the changes. they need to adjust themselves to their new country, not the other way around. this ofcourse should not mean giving up your identity. it means working towards getting to a state where you can function in both social groups you belong to. there's nothing wrong with speaking your original langauge- wherever you want to, but you should also speak your local language. and this applies to everything.
the problem with these new waves of immigrants is that they don't even seem to try to become a real part of their new country. they want all the financial advantageous (sp) of the west, but culturely, they don't want to be a part of it. that would make every sensible citizen of the west upset.
I see it here, in Israel too. we've had 2 main immigration waves in the last 10-20 years, from the former soviet union, and from Ethiopia. there is a resounding difference in the way these 2 groups have integrated into Israeli society, and how they are vied by Israelis. no doubt the Ethiopian immigrants were much more open to truely accept their new society, and as a result were more easily accepted by Israelis, and the massive benefits given to them by the state (in Israel you don't only get wellfair, you get help buying a house, a car... INSANE benefits considering Israel's condition) did not raise any objections, unlike with the Russian immigrants.
(these problems are solved now, btw, and everyone recognizes how Israel is better off after recieving the Russian immigration. but I think it's different than in Belgium because the people who arived here were educated, westen people, who contributed greatly to our economy).

about that radio guy, he has many years ahead of him of watching the sisters win, so if he has a problem with them, he's got a BIG problem;) . the joke's on him really.

chapel
Feb 4th, 2003, 10:10 AM
it's gone way over board! it's sick and disgusting! joking or not those words shouldn't have been used! i'm no fan of the williams sisters but i still know that respect is required of everyone!